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Author Topic: Thinking it would be hard to find someone again  (Read 2749 times)
Manic Miner
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« on: May 07, 2023, 05:20:56 AM »

This is mostly a what-next? post. Beyond the mourning phase, when you try to move forward.

As someone that is in his 40's, with an artistic freelance job that is kind of a lone-man ride, with my hobbies that are kind of nerdy or lonely too (astronomy, science, nature, huge passion for certain kind of music and bands, puzzles, games etc.), introverted nature and my rather high-standards for relationships and women, I think I'm busted. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

What I mean by 'high standards' - I'm not interested in one night stands, short term relationships with no deeper connection or meaning, or being in a relationship for the sake of a relationship. Or out of interest (money, inheritance, status etc.). I'd rather be alone then.
To have that special affection and spark I need to find a woman attractive enough physically. Some gestures, behaviour, her face... she has to be pretty and kind in some way. Natural looks, self-consciousness and style (not the expensive one, but genuine) is important to me. And vice versa. I'd never want something that I myself couldn't give back.

That being said, meeting someone that shared mutual interests so far has been close to zero. I love cycling, paddling and hiking, I'm in a mountaineering club and again, didn't meet any women/girl that was even close of getting along for being more than a friend.  

I'm still attached to my ex W. Women that did catch my eye looked like her a lot. My therapist said I have both romantic and erotic component attached to her and that I shouldn't torture myself over it but accept that's how it is - for now. I wish I could patch things with her, but I'm aware that's impossible, as is. She still refuses to seek support, her side of processing things and delusional thinking about us are as high as ever. Responsibility gone, 'cause and effect' zero. Still has insatiable need to be loved and be cared for, while in return she demands even more and gives very little. It's a recipe for disaster.

I doubt I will find someone like her again - thinking of our heydays. I can say we truly loved each other for at least 15 years, with all our ups and downs. She's also incredibly pretty. Or used to be... when she still had that innocence and cheerfulness in her being.

Even though I feel much younger than my age and I'm fairly good looking and youthful, I'm close to being middle aged and my time for building a new relationship or family is limited. Most girls of my age or around are already married. Those that are not... well, usually there's some reason why. If I do find someone, there will be a 'caution' for the BPD red flags too... kinda long way ahead, so much in my head at this moment.

On the other hand, I feel like I have so much to share and to give. I'm kind, respectful and would be there for someone with all my being - as long as there's a healthy return. Giving, without getting anything back is long past me. I have a great deal of empathy and I am a fairly positive person with a positive attitude towards life. But there's a quote from Carl Jung “If a man knows more than others, he becomes lonely." It's nothing to do with arrogance, but experience, personality and having different or peculiar interests and goals in life.

My interests and values are nerdy and introverted, very individualistic too, yet my love for beauty in life, openness, longing to share my life with someone is strong. I tend to think those two don't quite mix or match together and I will end up being alone.

It's not the question whether that someone exists or not. The world is huge, there's everything for everybody. But I'm not sure whether we'll have a chance to ever meet and find each other in our lifetime, while we are still young enough. I feel like I'm sort of gambling with time and choices I make, with high probability of staying alone.

A friend of mine asked me whether or not I'm ready for dating... that left me somewhat puzzled. I don't know. Some from the outside could say I'd be dating so fast compared to my divorce and separation (10 months). But for me it's not so sudden.

I've been in this state for a while... at least since 2019. Loneliness and sadness combined with toxic relations has been with me all this time. I kind of long for a normal romantic relationship, companionship and a soulmate. That being said, I'm not desperate and wouldn't set for anybody or anything. If I don't find anyone in near future, so be it.
But as a rational being, I've mourned my marriage and will do so in years to come for sure. I'm fully aware I cannot change my ex. I'm also aware I cannot be a BPD caretaker anymore. Life needs to go on. I soon will be middle aged as well. What am I to wait?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 06:40:54 AM by Manic Miner » Logged
Rev
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2023, 05:34:53 AM »

Hi there,

You raise lots of interesting points - and post pandemic, one thing that is for sure is that regardless of where we have come from in our relationships, dating is hard. EVERYONE has been impacted in one way or another.

I speak with so many single people who echo exactly what you are saying. I know that doesn't change the situation out there. My intention is to affirm that maybe there is nothing "wrong" with you and that some of what you are experiencing is really a healthy caution.

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev
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NarcsEverywhere
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2023, 06:54:45 AM »

I feel similar, I think you know, you have to be willing to lower your standards, not to an insane degree where you are with someone you aren't attracted to at all, or like someone who is highly abusive, but perfect people don't exist, and maybe that's what intoxicated you about your ex, is that she appeared perfect, because she was phony, idealized, and she went for you, even though most women with her looks might not have. Which I have had happen with multiple pretty women with BPD.

Nothing wrong with being how you are, with all your quirks, you can still meet people with your common interests, and hope for the best, that's what I always thought the best strategy was for finding a girl, unless you want to be a social butterfly and go through tons of dates, and deal with a ton of drama. Besides, I think just connecting to people with similar interests is rewarding, and it also allows you to try to be at peace with being alone. I always try to consider being with a girl as a bonus, not something that is absolutely required. Even though many days, god damn I want a girlfriend so bad. But I think being happy with yourself and your life, are what women find most attractive anyways.

I can also totally relate to being passionate and deep and stuff. I can totally be that way too, in fact, it's a big part of me, but healthy relationships can't be as intense and insane as the BPD rollercoaster. If you're looking for that, you're probably in trouble. A healthy relationship would build more slowly over time, maybe not perfectly slowly, but it wouldn't move so fast, and you probably wouldn't hit it off so damned hard, right off the bat, because the love bombing is intoxicating, and fools you.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 07:08:24 AM by NarcsEverywhere » Logged
Manic Miner
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2023, 06:05:02 AM »

Thanks guys. It's true that Covid kind of made the world go upside down and amplified the interpersonal issues and loneliness that existed before and added even more weight.

@NarcsEverywhere you have a point here also.
I wouldn't say I was 'intoxicated' by my exW. We were high-school sweethearts and known each other for half of our lives. We were practically growing up together.

I would be there for her, even as a caretaker, if there was something to meet my own needs, empathy from her side, that I used to have for many years before.

BPD was here from the start. Back then it was manifested as anxiety attacks combined with fear and occasional rage with 'you don't love me' mantra. It wasn't a thing that magically showed up in our relationship. However, for years she had enough self-control to not cross that line often. She always apologized if she did and I could really see she was sorry. Even her 'you not love me' mantra used to be said in feminine and non-attacking way. But this all has been gone for a solid 4 and a half years now.

Anyhow, I'm not looking for 'perfection' as I know there is none. But certain physical and personal characteristics have to be met to initiate that 'spark' in me.

Excerpt
Nothing wrong with being how you are, with all your quirks, you can still meet people with your common interests, and hope for the best, that's what I always thought the best strategy was for finding a girl, unless you want to be a social butterfly and go through tons of dates, and deal with a ton of drama.

Certainly not, Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). I had enough of drama. I would be totally fine to start slowly with someone new. In fact, I'd really appreciate that in my current state. The thing is, what Rev sort of pointed out - I don't meet people with my common interests that much and find them attractive enough to have something more than a friendship.

I'm not starting my day thinking 'alright, let's find a girlfriend or a soulmate today!' But certain patterns repeated over and over again that left me thinking - wait a minute, this isn't going anywhere in that regard. I'm not meeting anybody that share my interests and that I find attractive. What's wrong? Am I wrong? Am I really not paying attention around me? I think I do, but still zero. Are my bars set too high? If yes, I cannot fake myself or the girl that I have affection for her, when I'm not. What's going on?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2023, 06:43:12 AM by Manic Miner » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2023, 12:37:34 PM »

I'm not single, but I will take a try at this, from observing friends who have gone through this. Attraction is very complicated - who we are attracted to and who is attracted to us. It's also influenced by our families of origin.

I think the dating pool is smaller as we get older as people are married at this stage. I also think it's more complicated as we are more "formed" as we get older, and what I have noticed is that, while "chemistry" is important, it's less on the physical and more on the personality. This means it might not be a lot in the beginning but that can change.

"First loves" are very impressionable. You've had a long term relationship with yours. It may be that a reason other women don't seem attractive to you is that, you are still emotionally wrapped up with her which makes you not as emotionally available. Letting yourself work on this could help change this.  

If you aren't ready, give yourself time and  don't rush things, don't be fearful.
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Manic Miner
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2023, 02:25:40 PM »

Attraction is very complicated - who we are attracted to and who is attracted to us. It's also influenced by our families of origin.

Now that you said that... it makes sense. My mother used to be a very beautiful woman, as was her mother, my grandmother. Our family friends and relatives used to compare them with Claudine Auger and Mireille Mathieu from the 60's. She never insisted on the looks, but the benchmark they both set was high and probably subconsciously I had 'inherited' those values or types for other women.

While my ex W didn't resemble them physically at all, she was very feminine and had similar toothy smile. And was very very pretty. It's funny, but I still find those small celestial noses in women adorable and notice them instantly, without even trying. That was probably also inherited from my FOO.

Excerpt
I think the dating pool is smaller as we get older as people are married at this stage. I also think it's more complicated as we are more "formed" as we get older, and what I have noticed is that, while "chemistry" is important, it's less on the physical and more on the personality. This means it might not be a lot in the beginning but that can change.

Yes, I sense that too. I've met several women that I found attractive around me and all were married, usually having at least one child. For me that's a clear No, look elsewhere.
Even though I'm in my 40's I still find the physical side, be it some facial features, gestures, smile or a style absolutely important. Not exclusively, but as a first step.

Excerpt
"You've had a long term relationship with yours. It may be that a reason other women don't seem attractive to you is that, you are still emotionally wrapped up with her which makes you not as emotionally available. Letting yourself work on this could help change this. If you aren't ready, give yourself time and  don't rush things, don't be fearful.

That's exactly what my therapist said on our last session when we briefly crossed this topic. But honestly, I'm not so sure. I mean, it's not that there are women or girls around me that I like and failed to notice. There's none that I personally know or met during sports or hobbies. Maybe I'm also doing this subconsciously and both you and my T are right... I fail to see this now though.

Thanks on your thoughts, always a pleasure reading them.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2023, 04:13:50 PM by Manic Miner » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2023, 05:36:11 AM »

Thanks!

Of course, appearance matters to some extent .There has to be some attraction and chemistry there. I think it's important to know what our essential characteristics are and what we'd like, but would be willing to compromise on. Both are individual- one person's deal breaker might not matter to someone else. Seems your therapist is a good guide about this.



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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2023, 03:20:42 PM »

Pretty much agree with Wendy, I was only saying that it seems like your standards were putting you in this no win situation. Something’s gotta give. But it really up to you what you do. It is common to be attracted to people similar to your family.

One of my friends had really pretty sisters, and maybe his mother was too when she was younger. He ended up lonely a lot, because he was too much of a dork to get them. He wasn’t very masculine at all. But that’s what he wanted.

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Manic Miner
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2023, 03:19:05 AM »

You both have a point. I'm really trying to be honest with myself here and understand it better.

Excerpt
One of my friends had really pretty sisters, and maybe his mother was too when she was younger. He ended up lonely a lot, because he was too much of a dork to get them. He wasn’t very masculine at all. But that’s what he wanted.

 Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) yeah. I'm both similar and opposite of that. I've been doing sports and home workouts for more than a decade now, have shaped 4-pack abs, muscular legs, height and all. Most guys of my age, like 7 out of 10 already have bellies. Going to the grocery store is their ultimate exercise. Most people think I'm in my mid-30's and literally nobody correctly guessed my age. This year I will turn 44. Women are very kind and cheerful when talking with me too. So physically, I'd say it's a win for me.

BUT my personality and interests are nerdy. For example, when I talk about astronomy to women, they quite like it to some extent. But as soon as I get slightly technical they lose interest. I remember when I took my ex W to astrophotography session with me, she fell asleep in my lap and then moved to the car.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

(Similarly, when girls and relatives start talking about astroLogy, I'm doing my best to keep my mouth shut and stay off the conversation :X)

Of course, it's not 'required' for a girl to like astronomy as I do, or if at all. But my other interests are similar and pretty technical too. I'm a good listener and can sympathize a lot, but I suck at gossips and small talk. I get so excited when talking about nature, plant world, life or science. That's hardly a winner for the pretty woman, eh? The most approachable thing I can talk about is the music, video games and certain film genres.
I'm a sporty guy too, but I find sports very personal, as a healthy way to vent, be in shape or spend time. I don't like to preach or talk about it that much with someone, as sport enthusiasts can be obsessive about their routines and gear to quite insane levels. I try to stay away from those conversations.

I guess I will have to think about the compromises some more, where do I stand and what can I do to improve. Maybe I suck at approaching the right women with the right words and asking for a date. I'll use the entire session(s) with my T to talk about this in detail.

But I really appreciate your input here guys. This is quite weird and personal. It's not super easy for me to talk about this. Having a reality check is both healthy and helpful in the long run.
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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2023, 04:18:19 AM »

Yeah I can see how this is super hard to talk about, I don’t think I’ve heavily dived into this myself, as I am delaying a relationship until I am doing better.

I think, you know, we can’t get all our interests met by one person, it might feel like it if the person is pandering a lot, like with love bombing, such as with BPD.  But I think the most you can get is some common interest, attraction (physical and mental) a good connection and supporting each others success somehow. There might be compromise, and sharing of interests, but normally not everything. Depends where you think connecting is most essential, and what physical and mental traits you find most important. Sometimes finding a friend to fulfill a need, can alleviate it in a relationship.
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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2023, 12:15:33 PM »

Sometimes the outside doesn't match the inside. There has to be some level of attraction so looks are important- to an extent. Even if one is married, we know what we think is good looking- we just don't pursue it. In the workplace, I found that decent people respect boundaries and with these boundaries, I have gotten to know people through being co-workers.

I found that some men, who I didn't think were attractive at all at first, became more attractive over time as I got to see other aspects of them as co-workers- did they treat people with respect, were they kind, and so on.

I admit to not going to the gym enough, but when I did go, there was a personal trainer who was very handsome and fit. He was always working with women, I assumed he might be a player. Over time though, I learned he was a religious man, married young, and a family man. I assumed his wife was fit and gorgeous too. I did meet his wife and she is pretty but doesn't work out and after several kids, has average build- and even though he trains women, he's devoted to her. Everything I assumed about him was not correct.

There's nothing wrong with being a nerd in a fit body-  and it's good that you are doing this both for health and appearance. It's a definite plus in the dating scene but it's possible that a nice woman who isn't that fit might assume you aren't going to be interested.  If you are wanting someone in the same age range- well there's women who have had kids, and also a job and the gym didn't take priority. I think a certain level of fitness is good, for health reasons and appearance but it's hard for over 40 ladies to compete with 20 year olds in the dating scene. It may be that physical attraction isn't as strong when dating in this age range but there are other ways to match.
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Manic Miner
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« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2023, 03:42:19 AM »

I did a personality test many times over the years and every time I always ended up as INFP-T (Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, Prospecting - Turbulent) or simply called Mediators.

I read about the traits again, both good and bad about INFP and boy it was like a revelation. They literally described how I think, feel, my positives and quirks, daydreams, procrastination, fantasies, love idealizations, empathy, relationships, you name it. It was even bigger revelation now, as the veil of BPD-induced trauma and shadow is lifting, so getting to know my true self, who I really am has been kind of eye opening.

Few lines that struck me about romantic relationships and INFP's:

"When they meet someone new, most Mediators can’t help but compare that person with the ideal soul mate they’ve envisioned. Unsurprisingly, such comparisons tend to weed out more than a few potential partners. It can be difficult – if not impossible – for a real, flesh-and-blood person to live up to a Mediator’s cherished dreams."

"...these personalities also want to help their partners learn, grow, and pursue their goals. Mediators are always dreaming up ways to improve themselves and the world around them, and the last thing they’d want is for their partners to feel unhappy or stuck. "

"Mediators don’t just want to find a partner – they want to connect with a soul mate. Thoughtful and open-minded, these personalities are generally willing to consider going out with all sorts of people."

"But the reality of dating can come as something of a shock to Mediators, forcing them to grapple with a challenging question: If they want to be in a relationship, will they have to compromise on their ideals?"

With their active minds and imaginations, people with this personality type tend to develop and carry with them a vision of their ideal partner – a vision that may be based on a favorite fictional character, a person they once knew, or simply the stories they’ve told themselves about how love “should” look.

They may also focus on making their partner happy, to the detriment of their own priorities and sense of self.

Whoever wrote this, couldn't describe it better of what I think or feel at my default factory settings - however realistic or not, good or bad in the current day and age. Of course I started to change after the experience with BPD and working with my therapist. And here I am again, looking and thinking about the compromises.

My T said yesterday I'm the type of guy that would sit by the drunken uncle Joe at friend's wedding and listen to his story, then politely and carefully try to get away, making sure not to hurt Joe's feelings. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) It was funny, but it was so accurate (and it actually happened).

The big question for me now is - how do I swim through this and how to connect my idealizations with reality (for a partner). Looking at the compromises.

@Wendy. Speaking about the age difference. Ideally, it would be someone younger than me, like 36 and above. My ex turned 40 as well. It's not just about having younger and more fit woman (that's obviously a plus in my perspective), but I still haven't ruled out to have more children. So, having a younger partner than me would certainly help in that regard.
Of course, if I met a soulmate or someone with whom I'd have 'chemistry' and physical attraction working, I certainly wouldn't think about age, as long as it's similar to mine.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2023, 05:32:23 AM by Manic Miner » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2023, 06:03:46 AM »

That's interesting as I think I can also identify with these traits and I found dating to be difficult for me as well in both who I found attractive and who was attracted to me. It was not due to being unattractive- I think appearance is important but once someone has met certain criteria- I think there's much more to it. The relationship patterns in our families of origin influence this. Co-dependent traits were normalized in my family as our focus was on managing BPD mother. Boundaries also play a role. We didn't have normal boundaries in my family of origin and so these learned traits and boundaries did have an impact on future romantic relationships.

You may not have had disorder in your family but you married young and so it may have some influence to have "grown up" with a BPD partner.

Our criteria- what we won't compromise on and what we'd like but are willing to compromise on- are individual. People may have different ones- and I think it's good to be clear about what they are. I think it's also important to be up front about what is important when dating for your sake and for the other person. I think your criteria so far are important ones for you. Wanting the possibility of children is an important one- so age matters here. Fitness is important to you too. It's also being fair to the other person to know what you want- nobody wants to be married to someone who isn't happy them. As to having an ideal soulmate match, if that is based on imagination, such a person may be very hard to find but being clear about what is essential to you and what you may be willing to compromise on might help you widen your scope of possibilities.

Wanting to make your partner happy is a good thing but if it's to the detriment of self- that can be problematic in relationships. I think it's good that you are working with a therapist- to help you untangle all this and to be in the best position for finding someone you match well with.
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2023, 04:28:24 AM »

That's interesting as I think I can also identify with these traits and I found dating to be difficult for me as well in both who I found attractive and who was attracted to me.

Have you done a Myers–Briggs 16 personality test so far? It's fun and if try to be dead honest with yourself, you will get some very interesting results.


Excerpt
The relationship patterns in our families of origin influence this. Co-dependent traits were normalized in my family as our focus was on managing BPD mother.

Thank you Notwendy.

I agree that FOO is shaping us, who we are, how we deal with life situations and role models. But to some extent.
The same event(s) can cause different outcomes depending on the person(s) involved.

For example, when my mother died I was 24. Mom and I were very connected, not just a typical mother-son relation, but as friends and similar personalities. She just knew how I felt, even when I didn't utter a word. And vice versa. She was radiating life and always had a smile on her face.

However, the same tragic event that forever changed me, I used for personal growth, to take care of her parents (my beloved grandpa and grandma) and independence. But my sister (6y older than me) used as an excuse for living the life by subpar standards, marrying the first guy that came by, ending up in a bad marriage and forever staying clingy and needy.

My point is, the same event, even the most difficult one, can trigger various reactions and roles to various people, even to brother and sister that lived under the same roof, with same parents and education. For me it was to try to be better and to know that if my mom was alive, she'd be proud of me. And for my sister it was to escape and choose the victim role model. It depends on our traits, genetics and personalities.

Excerpt
You may not have had disorder in your family but you married young and so it may have some influence to have "grown up" with a BPD partner.  


The bad news is, I probably don't know what a 'healthy' romantic relationship looks like, even though I do know what love and togetherness looks like. I had plenty, for years. And for that I'm forever grateful to my ex.
But the good news here I guess is that I never 'lost' myself in this marriage.
Even when I was doing detrimental things to my own, when I was accepting and moving over the things I shouldn't have, I never lost touch with myself. There was always this feeling that told me this wasn't 'good', 'normal' or who I am. My gut feeling/intuition screamed at me at those times. But I hoped it was temporary, could be fixed and worked on.

Still, my intuition got me where I am today, even when I didn't know who or what BPD was. As I said in my first post here, I'm fully aware I cannot change my ex. I'm also aware I cannot be a BPD caretaker anymore. And to be fair to yourself and to your partner - you need to choose one. And I couldn't choose any. I waited to see if my ex had strength to address her own responsibility and emotional instability with therapy now that we lived separately. I'd be there by her side if she did, even though I knew it was long way ahead of us for her to learn to control her impulsivity, emotions and rage towards me. But she didn't. I had no other choice.

I fully agree with you that my future partner should know my hopes, purpose, goals and all, like I should know hers.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2023, 04:49:58 AM by Manic Miner » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2023, 06:07:20 AM »

Have you done a Myers–Briggs 16 personality test so far? It's fun and if try to be dead honest with yourself, you will get some very interesting results.


Thank you Notwendy.

I agree that FOO is shaping us, who we are, how we deal with life situations and role models. But to some extent.
The same event(s) can cause different outcomes depending on the person(s) involved.


My point is, the same event, even the most difficult one, can trigger various reactions and roles to various people, even to brother and sister that lived under the same roof, with same parents and education. For me it was to try to be better and to know that if my mom was alive, she'd be proud of me. And for my sister it was to escape and choose the victim role model. It depends on our traits, genetics and personalities.

But the good news here I guess is that I never 'lost' myself in this marriage. 
My gut feeling/intuition screamed at me at those times. But I hoped it was temporary, could be fixed and worked on.

Still, my intuition got me where I am today, even when I didn't know who or what BPD was.

I fully agree with you that my future partner should know my hopes, purpose, goals and all, like I should know hers.


I think that intuition will serve you well in dating. I think we feel a sense of unease around people with poor boundaries- with all relationships really.

I am sorry for the loss of your mother. It's a difficult loss. I think you are right about how  different siblings respond to situations. I can see that in my family too- how we dealt with our BPD mother.

I did do the personality tests a couple of times in my 20's but not recently. I don't recall the results exactly.

I think it may be more difficult to find a partner outside the school years, but I have seen it happen with friends, so I know it is possible. It seems your work with your counselor will be valuable in this process.
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