II. Giving her space (Christian discussion)

[understandBPD]

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[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Skip]

What would a a strong, patient, and a confident man do here?

Tell her you love her and your working on improving and that when she's ready you'll be here and let her know you'll continue to be faithful while waiting.

A strong, patient, and a confident man would stop talking about the relationship and her obligations to the marriage and the need to fix herself (and your relationship needs, fixing yourself, Gottman, the bible, etc.). It sounds needy.

Without saying it, convey an attitude that she is welcome to have her space, no pressure, you are cool with doing your own thing, and you are living life.

Give her space, but when you do contact her (not now), move the conversation to something easier, safer, more fun. Hey I went on a hike and here are some interesting pictures of the moon on ghe lake. You want to write things that she can respond to. And if she is not responding, wait a few weeks or more.

I will leave it at that and give some time her birthday is coming up end of september i was planning to send her a few books i was wondering what your opinion might be.

2 of the books are traditional cook books 1 focuses on adult cooking the other focuses on meals and nutrition for babies/children
1 is called the Excellent Wife: A Biblical Perspective
1 is called The High-Conflict Couple: A Dialectical Behavior Therapy Guide to Finding Peace, Intimacy, and Validation

Write that on your mirror - you said your piece on August 29 and you are going to leave it at that. Don't send any more relationship notes. You have said it all.

I would not send these as gifts. She doesn't know if she still wants to be in a relationship with you and you are sending baby and self-help books? I think it will feel smothering.

Give her space. Encourage your mother to talk with her (but not about the relationship) and thing of something fun to give her for her birthday that doesn't suggest any obligation to the relationship or you.

I don't know what she likes, but maybe a gift certificate for a spa day with her mom (if that applies) or tickets to take her parents to the symphony. Something modest, fun, and not obligatory.

Don't lose sight of the fact that behind all this, this may not be the best relationship for you. You don't have to deal with that now, but don't lose sight of it either. Neither of you could support each other emotionally. That is a real thing.

[understandBPD]

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[Matty]

Brother, our stories are almost word for word the same. I haven’t seen my wife in 7 months and it was exactly as you described once we moved in together: bored, unhappy etc, endless cycles of drama over minor issues and then suicidal gestures. You are receiving excellent advice from the people on this board, listen to them. So instead, I will only add a few extra points as our stories are so similar (my wife is Muslim and considers herself very religious and becomes almost militantly religious when triggered but also does many things contrary to her beliefs too).

First - monthly funds, I agree with the advice given, shut it down. It’s not working now so shift the strategy.

Second - give her space. Someone on here said treat them like cats and let them come to you. Your attempts to engage (also what I did) are not having the desired effect. My wife e-mails me every one to two weeks, I don’t reach out to her so I only reply to her and when I reply I keep things light and use SET - Support, empathize, truth - it takes time but it does really help. There is a whole methodology to speak to BPDs and they are difficult to learn but it helps. The last time we spoke she said: you have 10 min. We talked for 4 hours. Let her have that control.

Third - as others have said: she has to face the consequences of her actions and don’t try to interpret what she says to you, take it at face value. If she says she doesn’t want to speak to you again, don’t reach out, even it means you may never speak to her again.

It’s good that she is being respectful with your family because that can go very wrong as my wife tried to make me look like a monster to my family but that didn’t go as she had hoped. It doesn’t sound like you needed to set boundaries but I did with my wife as the verbal abuse had to stop and for the most part it has.

On a positive note though, my wife has been going to therapy and I notice a significant difference even after just a few months. Yet its still two steps forward and one step back. 

I know this is very hard for you because all your hopes, dreams and aspirations for a future together have been dashed and what will happen next is anyone’s guess but you seem to be doing what you need to do which is work on the best version of yourself and stay healthy. If it wasn’t for my family and my closest friends, I would have been lost.

Stay strong brother.

[understandBPD]

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[kells76]

Hi understandbpd;

I've been thinking about your situation this morning -- lots of moving parts going on for you. You're trying to balance marriage and BPD in the context of your faith and that's no easy task.

I think I hear your struggle between being trying to be faithful to what God wants and trying to heal your marriage. What's good is that you keep coming back here even though maybe you are hearing some things that are challenging or different. Really proud of you for this:

If someone can explain in more detail why i should stop doing this i am listening.

It sounds wise to both value your faith and beliefs, and to be open to listening to some new approaches.

understandbpd, am I tracking with you correctly that a big difficulty for you right now is that some of the feedback you hear doesn't seem to mesh with what being a faithful husband and person should/would do? And that your belief is that God and being faithful to his will is your top priority?

I've been there, too. I have experienced a relationship in the past (not BPD, but a serious relationship) where I was sure that he was going to be the husband God wanted me to have. Everything lined up -- I knew I was doing what God would want. So when this person broke up with me, it wasn't just a relationship falling apart, it shook me at a spiritual level.

As I thought about your situation this morning, one of the first passages that came to mind was Acts 10. Peter was sure that he was doing what God wanted by refraining from socializing with non-Jews. How could God ask him to do something so profane? And in a dream involving non-kosher animals, at that? Yet God was showing Peter -- "Who is it who truly knows what I want, you or Me? I am God -- I can ask you to do something greater and more loving than the laws and customs you have followed."

That led me to remembering the passage about David and his troops going into the tabernacle (I think it was the tabernacle at that time) and eating the showbread that by law was for the priests only. How could God allow David to do that, wasn't it against the laws? Yet there was something bigger, a higher priority of God's at play, and David was wise to see that in that situation, the issue wasn't the bread, but that God could want you to do something that "seemed" to go counter to His laws.

I don't think this makes God arbitrary or flippant. I think it puts me in my place -- who truly knows what God values and wants us to do, me or God? Those passages (plus the one where God asks Abraham to sacrifice Isaac), for me, help me remember that as a human being I do the best I can to live a faithful life, and yet God is the ultimate authority and may ask me to do something that for a long time I did not think God would want -- and that would not make me unfaithful.

Anyway, it's a lot of food for thought. The fact that you are staying here, open to listening, and participating in a back-and-forth dialogue about your values is so important and deserves to be recognized.

There is so much that is counterintuitive about having a relationship with a pwBPD, not only counterintuitive to ideas of "common sense" but counterintuitive to ideas of "a loving and Godly marriage", that it can take some time to process. I can say from my vantage point, looking back on stepparenting my H's kids (their mom has many BPD traits), that it can take time to integrate the non-intuitive relationship approaches with faith, AND it can be done without losing your integrity.

And do let us know if you would like your thread to be identified as a "Christian discussion" or "________ discussion" (any particular faith or denomination) -- we have Guidelines to accommodate that.

-kells76

[understandBPD]

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[kells76]

Thanks for the reply -- glad you are here.

I'm reading that there are various aspects of the situation that are challenging, including (but not only) the spiritual aspect. Makes sense; it's good that you are able to list those out.

Going back to your first post:

2.How do i save my marriage from being torn apart ?

I see that connected to your latest post:

I don't know if i am holding onto hope and its a lost cause i don't believe in re-marrying and biblically any marriage after you divorce isn't recognized by God you are committing adultery we both were in agreement of this and said divorce would never be an option for us and she said it is the absolute worst thing that could ever happen.

...

It's extremely hard for me to have faith in my wife and hold onto hope but that's the only option i have i have no intention of re marrying and nobody can ever replace my wife nor would i try to and i just wish she would reach out and show she cares because im certain she knows this is hurting us both.

Your commitment to your wife and marriage are coming through loud and clear, and your values make sense. You don't take marriage lightly and are trying to live a faithful life.

It is very challenging when a spouse has BPD (or any PD). What that means for saving a marriage is that "typical" or "traditional" approaches ("interventions", "proving your love", "reminding him/her of your dreams", "telling him/her to get help", etc) are often not effective and can even make things worse, even if we don't mean to. Maybe that is why some of the feedback here has sounded very different to you?

You've heard some feedback from some long-timers here about how to save your marriage -- some unintuitive approaches and "moves" to try. Like I mentioned above, it can sound different from expected feedback. Maybe that's the key here -- if your wife indeed has BPD (whether diagnosed or not), that means your marriage is not a typical marriage. You're in what is effectively a "special needs" marriage where typical "save the marriage" advice likely won't help, and may even hurt your marriage.

You're a committed husband and I think you would not want to purposefully hurt your marriage.

I think you do want to take the lead to make things better.

If something you were doing, out of all the love you had in your heart, and out of a genuine desire to improve things, were actually making things worse, would you want to know that?

understandbpd, I am curious if you feel up for taking the lead in trying a new and different approach in one of the areas you mentioned? Which one do you think you could try something new in:

-financial support
-her birthday coming up
-phone communication
-working with your insecurity/feeling "in limbo"
-being the emotional leader in a BPD relationship
-managing pressure in the marriage
-learning more about the reality of BPD
-(anything I missed?)

If doing something differently could help your marriage, would you be up for it?

It's a big question and one that a few posters on this thread have touched on in different ways.

Interested to hear more, whenever works for you;

kells76

(P.S. I will add "Christian discussion" to this thread title. You are of course welcome to start other threads, and you can also add "Christian discussion" to those titles if it is a key part of your topic. You don't have to add it if you don't wish to or if it is not directly related to your topic.)

[understandBPD]

Your commitment to your wife and marriage are coming through loud and clear, and your values make sense. You don't take marriage lightly and are trying to live a faithful life.

When we both met and also decided to marry we were on the same page and in full agreement that you marry 1 time and its until death do us part and divorce will never be an option in saying that she isn't pushing divorce she's mentioned it once or twice in 6 months and i've yet to see any evidence shes actively persuing for it but as i mentioned it may be she's just waiting up the time period i don't know but its extremely unfair to commit to someone and be on the same terms as them then shatter that with something you promised you wouldn't do.

It is very challenging when a spouse has BPD (or any PD). What that means for saving a marriage is that "typical" or "traditional" approaches ("interventions", "proving your love", "reminding him/her of your dreams", "telling him/her to get help", etc) are often not effective and can even make things worse, even if we don't mean to. Maybe that is why some of the feedback here has sounded very different to you?

It's more because she was the 1 who told me to go read the bible and learn how to be more of a biblical husband so i took that advice and started reading the bible every night and also a biblical husband book called the exemplary husband (the book im sending her is the excellent wife that matches it) and for the last 6 months i've been fully committed to improving myself biblically as she asked yet she hasn't given me a single opportunity to show any improvements even when i had gone all the way to her country and to me that is extremely poor behaviour from her and her family and utterly disrespectful.

understandbpd, I am curious if you feel up for taking the lead in trying a new and different approach in one of the areas you mentioned? Which one do you think you could try something new in:

I can consider not sending money if someone can explain the reasoning of why or how this is somehow a good thing to do because biblically you should always support your wife and love her regardless of her behaviour (christlike love)

Not sure what you mean by phone communication ? She's blocked my number on everything including msging apps the only contact i have with her is either email or through my mother (email i'm not even certain is unblocked since i have no replies and she only replies to important things but im going to assume for now its still open)

I will continue working on insecurities but at the same time her behaviour vs who she claimed to be are very different we've had this powerstruggle in regards to male friends i am of the opinion male and female cannot be friends without 1 or the other having some form of interest or attraction whether instantly or overtime my wife is very attractive she thinks she's not and she's innocent/gullable and tries to think of the best in a person where as i have life experiences and i am male so i know exactly how it is. So we've constantly had fights over this and her on facebook with male friends i think its wrong and inappropriate for a married woman she says i have rules for her but not for myself but i cut any female friends off i had and deleted all my social medias when we got married.

-being the emotional leader in a BPD relationship

Yes open to this

managing pressure in the marriage

Yes open to this

-learning more about the reality of BPD

I've been watching videos / reading websites and reading through the book suggested on this site called the high conflict couple (Crazy thing is i don't even know what the exact issue is personality disorder / bpd / did or something else its literally a guessing game i just know 100% something is wrong)

If doing something differently could help your marriage, would you be up for it?

I will do whatever it takes to fix my marriage as long as it does not involve destroying my dignity and self respect and accepting being a doormat. I will not allow my wife to dictate or control any aspect of our marriage its not her role and its not the type of person i am and she knows that and perhaps that is why she initially chose me but if it come down to either sacrificing my dignity , self respect and letting her run the marriage or staying seperated ill stay seperated for the rest of my life because once a man surrenders to a woman he has no value and she knows this. (same story with adam and eve and adam listening to eve causing the fall its there nature and its why God put man in authority over women)

Might sound sexist or extreme but that's what God commanded

[PearlsBefore]

Do you know this as a fact or is it just something she told you?
Do they know this as a fact or is it just something she told them?

See a pattern?
This is BPD, they are victims of everyone, and everyone is their rescuing confidant, and the roles are interchangeable as suits.

I can't find it right now, but I remember one of the more chilling peer-reviewed studies on BPD that I read fifteen years ago was so blunt about this as to be one of my first major "aha" moments. Basically to over-simplify, "the vast majority of pwBPDs reported childhood sexual molestation by a close authority figure...but then the aetiology got murkier because the pwBPDs also consistently reported that nearly every ex-partner had sexually abused them...and their current partner...and in quite a few cases they claimed therapists and doctors had done the same...then they started accusing our researchers! It is difficult to estimate the number of pwBPDs who have actually been molested in childhood, although it likely seems very high, because even those who may not have been appear pre-conditioned to claim they were".

[waverider]

I can't find it right now, but I remember one of the more chilling peer-reviewed studies on BPD that I read fifteen years ago was so blunt about this as to be one of my first major "aha" moments. Basically to over-simplify, "the vast majority of pwBPDs reported childhood sexual molestation by a close authority figure...but then the aetiology got murkier because the pwBPDs also consistently reported that nearly every ex-partner had sexually abused them...and their current partner...and in quite a few cases they claimed therapists and doctors had done the same...then they started accusing our researchers! It is difficult to estimate the number of pwBPDs who have actually been molested in childhood, although it likely seems very high, because even those who may not have been appear pre-conditioned to claim they were".

My wife has always told of "emotional abuse" instances by her mother. But she is quite capable of cut and pasting things I may have said and done out of reaction and frustration, retelling them out of context and she can paint the same picture of me as she does of her mother, and everyone else in between. My wife has seen various therapists over the years and each time they get led down the CPTS rabbit hole, often with different "events/people" being fingered as the villainous cause of all her woes.

I also place no faith in corroborating witnesses from the time either as they were spoon fed the information by my wife. For example her family will back her up that she was bullied at work, of course they would, because she told them so at the time, and they took it at face value. Doesn't mean it was true.

"Laundering" distorted realities through a third party to make them more believable is a subtle, but common trick. Using someone else's credibility to provide weight to their version of reality. Their "rescuers of the day" will back them up as they were truly sold that version

Also when it comes to a history of victimhood, who do bullies pick on? Easy targets. pwBPD are extremely prickly reactive people, it would be akin to start pushing around a fanatical suicide bomber. BPD almost makes people bullyproof. pwBPD get avoided not targeted. There is no fun to be had in getting hit with a BPD storm reaction.

The point of all this is that you, or anyone else, is likely to have a true and accurate awareness of a pwBPDs past, as it is invariably a tale of smoke and mirrors with much evasiveness. Even the pwBPD couldn't give an accurate recounting even if they tried as they will most likely have lost all original context. So its just a bunch of quotes and snapshots to be woven together with the agenda of now.

[understandBPD]

I ended up giving in and sent her another email.

I hope nobody ever has to experience the pain and lonliness of having someone treat you this way.

I think i should stop reading about BPD it only makes me lose hope and feel worse and i don't even know if she has BPD i don't know how to stay strong and remain hopeful in such a dark situation.

No contact goes against every single instinct of my body and feel its extremely damaging and from what i've read the only time you should do that is when your ready to move on and cut that person out for good not as a way to try to get them to contact you

[once removed]

No contact goes against every single instinct of my body and feel its extremely damaging and from what i've read the only time you should do that is when your ready to move on and cut that person out for good not as a way to try to get them to contact you

"no contact" is a tool for trying to detach and move on from a relationship, yes.

that is a very different approach than giving someone the space that they ask for, or doing something repeatedly that is resulting in a negative outcome.

i think thats why members are suggesting approaches that may feel uncomfortable, but may go a long way to cooling the tension or even improving the situation.

i came here about 12 years ago after being broken up with, but i didnt want the relationship to be over. it was by accident or miracle that i discovered bpd. it was like a god send to find people that were going through something similar, that had been there, that understood, and could help.

a lot of what members suggested to me felt uncomfortable or against my nature, at first. i had to put some faith and trust in the resources for help that i felt god was leading me to, and providing me, and lean not on my own understanding. even today, all these years later, im glad i did. i learned a lot of things, and unlearned some ideas, attitudes, and approaches, that werent serving me. it helped get me through, and come out the other side better equipped.

[understandBPD]

Were you able to heal your relationship ?

I don't want to move on but i can understand i really need to give her space i just don't want to regret it if she makes a mistake i can't forgive it will crush me.

What can i do when i have the urge to contact my wife and say something its usually around the 7 day mark that it really starts to consume me.

I read a poem that describes what i feel like she's doing and sent it to her and told her ill support her while she heals with or without me and no matter how hopeless it might seem she does not need to push me away and she's worth of being loved.

I'm going to aim for 3 weeks giving her space and then it'll be her birthday and ill send her a message.

I.

I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost … I am hopeless.
It isn't my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.

II.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I'm in the same place.
But it isn't my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.

III.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in … it’s a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault.
I get out immediately.

IV.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.

V.

I walk down another street.

[once removed]

Were you able to heal your relationship ?

no. we were young, dumb, and not meant to be. but all these years later, i can still learn a lot of lessons from it. there were a lot of mistakes i made, things that i could have done better. that wasnt easy to expose myself to at a time that id been dumped, and wanted her back. they wouldnt have saved my relationship, since we werent meant to be, but i sure would have had my head on a lot straighter, and those lessons i learned have made me a better partner now.

but there were a lot of things, at the time, that i wanted to do, to get her back, that members here, and loved ones, talked me out of, because they would have been disastrous, and i would have been kicking myself for a long time. im very glad that i was able to follow the advice, and with how i comported myself.

I don't want to move on but i can understand i really need to give her space i just don't want to regret it if she makes a mistake i can't forgive it will crush me.

What can i do when i have the urge to contact my wife and say something its usually around the 7 day mark that it really starts to consume me.

as someone who has lived with both anxiety, and heartache, it can be really hard to ignore that feeling that tells you that you have to act, have to do something.

the thing is, i realized that most of the time i acted on my anxiety, it actually made things worse.

anxiety is about feeling out of control, and trying to manage it. the thing is, if she makes a mistake you cant forgive, thats out of your control. sometimes, just understanding that some things are out of control is freeing. it helps us better understand how to proceed, and what is in our control.

if something like that is going to happen, its not going to be because you didnt send yet another message. its going to happen no matter what you do.

i dont think anyone is suggesting dont contact her at all, ever (that would be "no contact"), just to back off, give space, and not do what seems to be making things worse. if youre counting the days, or asking yourself what day is best, thats an arbitrary measure, and it really just keeps you in that loop of anxiety.

the point is to find healthier, more constructive ways of coping with this anxiety than acting on them.

the urge and the anxiety go away when youre able to step back, get emotionally centered, and really understand what actions are helping, and which actions are making things worse.

[understandBPD]

I feel very similar if i had realized this before she left i would of been better equipped to handle what was happening.

the point is to find healthier, more constructive ways of coping with this anxiety than acting on them.

I agree just need to keep trying to stick with it.

Do you think she's even aware she has a personality disorder based on how she's treating me ? or does she just believe im bad its all my fault

[Notwendy]

I can consider not sending money if someone can explain the reasoning of why or how this is somehow a good thing to do because biblically you should always support your wife and love her regardless of her behaviour (christlike love)


I will continue working on insecurities but at the same time her behaviour vs who she claimed to be are very different we've had this powerstruggle in regards to male friends i am of the opinion male and female cannot be friends without 1 or the other having some form of interest or attraction whether instantly or overtime my wife is very attractive she thinks she's not and she's innocent/gullable and tries to think of the best in a person where as i have life experiences and i am male so i know exactly how it is. So we've constantly had fights over this and her on facebook with male friends i think its wrong and inappropriate for a married woman she says i have rules for her but not for myself but i cut any female friends off i had and deleted all my social medias when we got married.

I will do whatever it takes to fix my marriage as long as it does not involve destroying my dignity and self respect and accepting being a doormat. I will not allow my wife to dictate or control any aspect of our marriage its not her role and its not the type of person i am and she knows that and perhaps that is why she initially chose me but if it come down to either sacrificing my dignity , self respect and letting her run the marriage or staying seperated ill stay seperated for the rest of my life because once a man surrenders to a woman he has no value and she knows this. (same story with adam and eve and adam listening to eve causing the fall its there nature and its why God put man in authority over women)

Might sound sexist or extreme but that's what God commanded

 My take on reading your posts is that a major worry of yours is if she has a relationship with another man. It seems you are trying to show her, in the best way you know- that you are a good husband in order to try to prevent this. The arguments over Facebook connections also are upsetting to you- that she continues her connections on social media with men ( and not with you).

You were in a long distance relationship- so did you two connect on social media.

While your conviction is to not allow the wife to control your marriage -- married or not, one person can not control another person. If the marriage is a traditional Biblical one as you described- it's because both people agree to have it that way. The wife still controls her own choice to allow the husband to lead in the relationship.

As to financial support - that is up to you but consider, in behavioral terms, money is a reward- a positive reinforcement. If we go to work, we get paid. If we don't, we don't get paid. If we all didn't go to work but got paid anyway - not that many people would go to work.

On her part, if she's in a situation of her choosing- not in communication with you, and she gets money every month. Why would she give that up? She may have no incentive to change. On the other hand, you don't want to use money to control her- and if you stopped and she then was nice to you, you'd not know for sure what her incentive is.

I think Skip has a point- in that sending her information about how she should behave may actually be a driving away point.  Even if you believe it is your duty as a husband to point out how she is not being the kind of wife as promised. If she's an adult, she has to know this already- moving away from a husband and cutting contact isn't being a kind or loving wife. As Skip mentioned though- when people are hurting - they are focused more on that than how their actions affect others.

Understandable that you wish to keep doing what you are doing because you feel it is in line with your convictions. Ultimately, you need to feel you have done the best you can do. If this means sending money, then do it because it's your value- not how it may impact her. The reason for emotionally light contact isn't because it's being trite. It keeps the door open without pressure and that this may be the more effective goal than to send emotional or constructive criticism.

If you are interested in looking at what could be enabling behavior- to not be a doormat - and I agree- nobody should be one- but the difference between enabling and helping can be subtle, I would suggest looking into 12 step CODA groups. These are helpful- even when substance use is not an issue. They focus on our own behavior. The original 12 step program was written by Christians and adapted to all religions/belief systems with the term "God of our Understanding". The first step is to acknowledge that we are not in control of someone else's behavior- our higher power, and in your case, God is. It can be helpful in managing the insecurity and anxiety of just not knowing what your wife will choose. It might be of help to you.

[understandBPD]

so did you two connect on social media.

Yes we did.

As to financial support - that is up to you but consider, in behavioral terms, money is a reward- a positive reinforcement. If we go to work, we get paid. If we don't, we don't get paid. If we all didn't go to work but got paid anyway - not that many people would go to work.

My reasoning is she tried to tell her family i didn't support her (not true) and i have proof/receipts of everything and i feel like her father was testing me by saying i don't need to send her money he will look after her (insulting to me) so by sending her money i am fullfilling my role as her husband/provider i also send the receipts of money transfers to her father to put a nail in the coffin about any lack of financial support.

I am also confident she would use me not sending money to her as a justification for her behaviour and i would like to limit any option she has to be weaponized against me.

As Skip mentioned though- when people are hurting - they are focused more on that than how their actions affect others.

I spent months reflecting on my own behaviour and actively doing things that improve and correct myself to become a better person/husband. So i feel its reasonable to also ask her to be accountable and take responsibility for her side of things and not be a doormat / accept full blame.

The reason why i want to send her things that identify her behaviour / cycle she's in is she is incredibly intelligent she isn't your average woman she speaks multiple languages / reads alot is heavily into philosophy and just overall a smart and kind woman (at least when i met her) so i believe when she see's / reads these things even if she ignores them temporarily at some point she is going to reflect on herself and come to the same conclusion.

When she originally left she told me she has emotional baggage and may be self sabotaging but i am almost certain the therapist she saw convinced her its all my fault or she convinced him its all my fault with whatever fabricated story he was told. I have a strong feeling she's done this previously to other people and they haven't really had much of a choice other than being blocked and cut out.

In my situation its similar but we are married and i know her family i know details about her and it's not as easy to just pretend you aren't married she still has to go through a process to divorce and she knows what she is doing is wrong but she's stubborn like myself.

Ultimately, you need to feel you have done the best you can do.

This is pretty much exactly how i think if i do everything i believe in then it does not work out i can deal with the outcome easier knowing i did absolutely everything. If i go against that instinct then it don't work out ill be haunted by saying why did i do this when i knew i shouldn't of.

The good thing is that i can identify the issues and what i know i am doing wrong i agree with everyone who's said i need to back off and lower the contact to give her some space and not push her away further my way isn't getting any result at all only making me feel temporarily relieved which is gone within a few days and repeated but could be doing much more damage to her view of me and how she feels.

Other than giving her space and reading the 12 step CODA group stuff is there anything anyone can think of that may be helpful in this situation the main 2 goals i have at this point are

1.Ensuring she stays faithful and does not do anything i cannot forgive (this is important because if this happens my marriage is over with no chance of being repaired).
2.Being able to have some form of 2 way communication with her that i can slowly progress towards repairing the damage.

I am not phased by distance / separation / time frames none of this matters i am a very patient person i can control my temptations and i very faithful and loyal the driving insecurity of why it feels like im running out of time is mainly #1 and i believe the longer your separated the more (normal) it becomes so if being able to reconnect on some level is possible the sooner the better.

Thank you for everyone who's taken the time to give me there advice so far it's been extremely helpful

[Notwendy]

1.Ensuring she stays faithful and does not do anything i cannot forgive (this is important because if this happens my marriage is over with no chance of being repaired).
2.Being able to have some form of 2 way communication with her that i can slowly progress towards repairing the damage

From what I can see from your posts- and we can only present ideas from what we see- your #1 concern is the possibility of infidelity on her part. The two of you met on social media. Once you were in a committed relationship, you did the ethical step to protect your marriage by not engaging with other women on social media however, she didn't reciprocate. This was a point of disagreement between the two of you. Being at a distance, you have no way of knowing if she's engaging in discussions with men that might lead to something more.

#2 is that you want two way communication.

I refer to 12 steps as this is a way I learned to distinguish between what I can control and what I can not. The concept of higher power ("God of our understanding) is to help us with this. Another way to put this is to know what is on our side of the street- and what is the other person's. Just as you have your own relationship with God- and you are accountable for your own moral choices, so does your wife. It seems she knows that infidelity is wrong in her religious view- and this becomes her own moral decision.

You can hope and ask your wife to stay faithful- but the choice is hers- whether or not she is with you or far away. It's just harder to monitor when she's at a distance. This is a difficult concern- but in any relationship- we can not control someone else's moral choices, only our own.

Likewise we can't control who someone chooses to speak to. You can communicate with your wife but she chooses if she responds or not.

The only thing we can control is our own behavior and how we respond to others. I don't know of any tools on this board or anywhere else that can give us this kind of control over someone else. You can do what you feel is your very best to adhere to the principles you committed to in your marriage. Your wife's moral choices are beyond your control.

Understandably- this sounds disappointing for the bettering board but there are limits to how much we can control in a relationship. We can help decrease high conflict by examining our own contributions to the relationship but each person -if they are adults- still has their own free will to make choices. I don't know of any tools to do otherwise.

[understandBPD]

From what I can see from your posts- and we can only present ideas from what we see- your #1 concern is the possibility of infidelity on her part. The two of you met on social media. Once you were in a committed relationship, you did the ethical step to protect your marriage by not engaging with other women on social media however, she didn't reciprocate. This was a point of disagreement between the two of you. Being at a distance, you have no way of knowing if she's engaging in discussions with men that might lead to something more.

I don't really know why it makes me so worried she's a good woman she's never given me a reason to doubt her she has good morals and values and has always carried herself respectfully and in a decent manner.

She is 10 years young than me so she is naive and gullable about the big world out there and being from her country also shielded to a lot of the western degeneracy as well. She couldn't understand the mindset that men and women cannot be just friends and that once married (even though we agreed prior) its in both our best interests to cut out the opposite sex as much as realistically possible.

She would get upset at me over my social media before i deleted it or accuse me of cheating constantly or saying i make her feel like im cheating and she would get so angry over the most minor thing in regards to a female. But at the same time just had a facebook full of males but there "Friends" and its only because there into music bla bla bla imo poor justification but i was lenient with her.

The only thing we can control is our own behavior and how we respond to others. I don't know of any tools on this board or anywhere else that can give us this kind of control over someone else. You can do what you feel is your very best to adhere to the principles you committed to in your marriage. Your wife's moral choices are beyond your control.

I think the biggest issue i have is she promised me all these things and sold me the idea of a till death do us part and how committed and loyal she is etc but then started behaving this way. This is where ou society declined by bringing in no fault divorces biblically 2 people get married that's it there's no out and if you decide to just change your mind or be unfaithful its adultery and you get stoned to death.

Very simple concept it teaches 2 main lessons first don't get married unless you mean vowels and commitment till death do us a part and second if you decide to wrong your husband/wife and hurt them in an unforgivable way you get put to death as it should be.

What's even more ironic is that she was cheated on in the past and said it messed her up badly and made her develop trust issues. She's had (what shes told me) to be a difficult life growing up and i do believe her. You would think after all that you wouldn't want to screw over and hurt the 1 guy who committed himself to you for life and has always been faithful to you and while i am not perfect and made my own mistakes none were serious or unfixable.

I don't drink , smoke or do any kind of drugs i don't watch porn and have no social media at all i don't keep female friends and im in physically in good shape and extremely loyal and faithful.

Why does she not seem to see any value in me , our marriage or her commitment ? But even with her list of issues and regardless of everything happening i would fight for our marriage just to honor God.

[understandBPD]

Does anyone have any idea of why her father even after being told about the issues / personality disorder etc and being well aware of all these issues (prior to her meeting me) does not seem to care / do anything about it.

I'm not a parent so i can't say for certain but surely as a father you'd want to help your daughter through her issues and also help the son in law if he was trying to keep the marriage together and avoid having your daughter be divorced.

So much of this just does not make sense to me

[Notwendy]

Families can function as one dysfunctional unit. Just as partners can lean towards enabling their spouse, parents also tend to be protective of their children. You mentioned your wife's family has disfunction too. So expecting her father to act as if you would act as a father may not be in line with how your wife's father acts.

You have told her and her family that what she is doing is wrong, and that she has a personality disorder. You may feel that this is your duty as a husband to get her back in line with the marriage vows. But she and her family are still doing what they are doing.

You've been sending money to show her family you are a good person. You are a good person. But sometimes people take advantage of that. While you don't want money to be the reason she contacts you, one way to test this is to not send it. Don't say anything ahead of time to them- just don't send it. See what happens. This is entirely up to you to consider.

[understandBPD]

You have told her and her family that what she is doing is wrong, and that she has a personality disorder. You may feel that this is your duty as a husband to get her back in line with the marriage vows. But she and her family are still doing what they are doing.

As long as my wife knows that i know she has issues and that this isn't all on me and her parents are aware of this and opt to do nothing and enable her behaviour and take her side then im okay knowing i've said/done what i can.

You've been sending money to show her family you are a good person. You are a good person. But sometimes people take advantage of that. While you don't want money to be the reason she contacts you, one way to test this is to not send it. Don't say anything ahead of time to them- just don't send it. See what happens. This is entirely up to you to consider.

Her birthday coming up end of this month i've sent her some books and a letter will send her money again on her birthday and then ill consider possibly holding off sending again until there's some communication. I try to see the best in her and not think poorly of her or that she's the type of person to take advantage of me because she's never been like that previously and has always been good with money and her needs not a high maintenance kind of woman she's a good woman but just having some difficulties and handling it quite poorly atm its disappointing she can continue to treat me like this but i hope it will stop soon.

[Notwendy]

Even as marriage is a spiritual and emotional commitment, there are still two people coming to an agreement on how to manage the tasks of everyday living together. It's not a 50-50 thing- rarely is this the dynamic but there is an agreement on expenses, household tasks etc and there are possible issues when one or both feel resentful.

A gift is just that- given without expectations. If this is the case, then the giver does not feel resentment. But you have expectations in your marriage. Everyone does. If a spouse leaves, disappears and doesn't communicate, this is not in line with what someone expects in marriage. There could be reasons- such as mental illness that prompts understanding, but also one would want explanation- talk to doctors, family members as to what that is.

Maybe your wife is a good person who is going through something difficult- but somehow, there's no answer, no response to your concern. If you had no expectations of your wife, you'd not be upset about this, but you have expectations of communication from her and it's upsetting that she doesn't respond.

You have the choice to continue doing what you are doing and hope she will change her behavior, or to change your behavior and see what happens when you do. One can't predict the outcome of that.

[Skip]

As long as my wife knows that i know she has issues and that this isn't all on me and her parents are aware of this and opt to do nothing and enable her behaviour and take her side then im okay knowing i've said/done what i can.

She knows what you have said. They know what you have said. Her parents have made it clear that they stand by their child (parents almost always stand with their children).

They know her better than you do. And they may very well be trying to help her deal with her struggles. But they are not choosing to get involved or compromise their relationship with her to take your side in this conflict.

Don't be offended by this. This is their position and it not unusual for parents to be very protective of their daughters.

Maybe your wife is a good person who is going through something difficult- but somehow, there's no answer, no response to your concern. If you had no expectations of your wife, you'd not be upset about this, but you have expectations of communication from her and it's upsetting that she doesn't respond.

You have the choice to continue doing what you are doing and hope she will change her behavior, or to change your behavior and see what happens when you do. One can't predict the outcome of that.

Wendy is right. "If you want to heal this, you have to assume your wife is a good person. You have the choice to continue doing what you are doing and hope she will change her behavior, or to change your behavior and see what happens when you do."

Let me share another observation. It may feel a little harsh, but I am saying it to help. I'm very committed to the well-being of this site's members.

You are talking at her and repeating your position on what her values and obligations need to be. You are indicating to her that her position and her observations are wrong and that she is mentally ill. Rightfully or wrongfully.there is not going to be much healing in this environment.

She put up a brick wall to get away from this monologue (rightfully or wrongfully), and you are standing outside that wall, continuing to shout the same message over the top of the wall, hoping that she will see things your way. As she builds the wall taller to get away from it, you climb up a ladder and keep shouting.

You've read Gottman's "Four Horses..."  (which is excellent) but interpreted it as a description of her failings. Gottman's message is that what you are experiencing is a transactional problem (two parties). He also says that when a couple gets to this condition, there is an 88-90% likelihood that the relationship will fail.

88-90%

Each round of repeating your position on what her values and obligations need to be (according to you) is pushing that percentage higher. Each round of telling her how you have improved or that she needs to improve, pushes the relationship closer to collapse.

If this continues, you two will reach a breaking point. Relationships die in stages. There has been much damage. You sense that, and it worries you... and drives you to do things that are making thing's worse.

Alan Fruzzetti says "before you can make things better, you must stop making them worse."

Fruzzetti is a master of the obvious.  

I wouldn't cite  "Christian values" (or send books, articles, or scripture) or remind her of her "marriage vows" as a reason for her to change her behavior. It has been said enough. It's hurting the relationship to keep bringing it up. It's one thing to "plant a seed" and another to do do things that may appear to use the Bible to judge/manipulate.

I wouldn't make "morality" statements or express fears of infidelity. The pony has been made. To repeatedly say this that could be interpreted to mean that you think her morals are lacking. This will not help in reconnecting.

I'd drop the "you're mentally ill" narrative. This will feel like blame - and blame will not mend any relationship divide. Nobody reacts well when told by their spouse during a conflict that they are mentally ill.

Don't try to make a point or hope to gain favor by sending the $400/month allowance. At the same time, if you stop now, it may appear manipulative. Another six months ($2,400) isn't going to break you. Besides, she is likely entitled to more than that if you divorce.

Do you see what I'm saying? Do you see how all of this could fit into Fruzzetti's "making matters worse"?

If it was me, I would shift my thinking. Make a 180º turn.

You pointed out earlier that there is a 12-month and 1-day separation requirement for divorce and you are six months in. You should expect that she is contemplating ending the relationship. At the same time, she probably has not made up her mind (she hasn't asked you for a separation agreement and she is still in contact with your family).

I don't know where you live, but I suspect in a country that has a mandatory counseling as part of the divorce process for marriages of less than two years.

Maybe this is something you should say you are open to.

Rather than say what you have been saying, you could be saying, "I care about you and I don't want you to feel guilt or obligation to be in a marriage. I really want to explore what is best for us when you are ready to talk. Can we rekindle our relationship of would it be better for us to be friends and move on. I want to do what is best for you and for us. And lets us a counselor to make those conversation safe and open."

And enter the process to listen (without being defensive) and see what is left for you two. It's hard to get out of Gottman stage 4, but it is not impossible.

The biggest question is whether there is still enough to desire and compromise on both sides to build a marriage or are you at an impasse.

[understandBPD]

Don't be offended by this. This is their position and it not unusual for parents to be very protective of their daughters.

It's offensive because i told them i didn't want them to pick sides i just wanted them to see the problem for what it is not what she said it is. She lied about me and made me look bad she painted a picture of me to her parents that she was the victim which she wasn't. I told them i could prove everything i was saying as an example

She : told them i forced her to cook for me and even when she was upset i didn't care and told her its something she has to do.

Reality : i have 100's of messages to her whenever she asked me if i wanted her to cook i would say if you want to i would appreciate it and 100's of receipts of takeaway i paid for when she didn't want to cook.

She : told my mother i cheated on her multiple times unsure if she told her parents this but they never mentioned it.

Reality : i've never been unfaithul i got rid of all my social media and she's the 1 with facebook and 100's of males on it who she actively talks to.

Let me share this observation. It may feel a little harsh, but I am saying it to help. I'm very committed to the wellbeing of this site's members.

I agree with your observation 100%

I don't know where you live, but I suspect in a country that has a mandatory counseling as part of the divorce process for marriages of less than two years.

We've been married longer than 2 years so there's no mandatory counseling but i've offered to speak to her therapist for her to speak to mine or for us to speak either or another together no reply.

Can we rekindle our relationship of would it be better for us to be friends and move on.

I don't consider ending the marriage an option and we both went into this knowing the expectations. I wouldn't want anything to do with her at all if she divorces me because she's broken my trust and the commitment she made to me and to God and would let him deal with her punishments.

Don't try to make a point or hope to gain favor by sending the $400/month allowance. Unfortunately, if you stop now, it may appear manipulative. Besides, she is likely entitled to more than that if you divorce. Another six months ($2,400) isn't going to break you.

She won't get any money off me in a divorce and it'll cost her money to go through it. I keep debating myself on this and i am slowly leaning towards it's time to stop sending money she's had 6 months of me being patient and understanding and she's ignored me completely.

Her parent's don't seem to care about helping the situation and at this point sending her money is pretty much enabling her behaviour and potentially funding her to divorce me in the future after that remaining 6 months.

Would you agree this is rational and fair thinking and it's time to start being realistic i do love and care about her but not if im going to be treated and disrespected to this point and she knows its upsetting to me and does nothing about it.

I would shift my thinking. Make a 180º turn.

Natural process i came here stressing out daily unable to sleep. I am now at a point where her behaviour is just irritating i know its ridiculous and not justified and i know its not all my fault and i know she isn't perfect and has many flaws. despite that i've chosen to accept and love her but the constant disrespect of ignoring me and her parents behaviour in this situation to me are very disappointing.

I've compromised enough and said enough for her to understand i was willing to compromise with her i changed a lot of aspects of my life and kept improving myself and she wouldn't even speak to me.

I've sent her a gift and letter for her birthday should arrive in 2 or so weeks and im going to arrange some flowers to be sent to her as well as an email wishing her a happy birthday other than that im not going to contact or persue her anymore and will do the next 6 months differently and hope in that time she remains faithful and may realize her own poor behaviour and do something about it.

I am slowly realizing she isn't perfect and the blame game is slowly fading to the point i can logically see all her mistakes and what she's done. I am willing to work with her but only on the condition she respects me and her commitment to the marriage and that's something she needs to fully commit to first and surrender herself completely to not only her husband but God as he instructed if not she's going to live a very sad and painful life of sin.

Would also like to thank you skip and all the other memebers for there input its honestly made this entire process much easier being able to speak my mind and vent to an extent and be understood and helped put me in a much better mindset.

[Skip]

I am willing to work with her but only on the condition she respects me and her commitment to the marriage and that's something she needs to fully commit to first and surrender herself completely to not only her husband but God as he instructed if not she's going to live a very sad and painful life of sin.

What do you think the likelihood is (%) that she will shift from where she has been for the last six months to "surrendering herself completely" to you as a "condition" and "first step" to discussing marriage reconciliation?

What does "surrendering" mean in this context?

Skip

PS: I am familiar with the Epistle to the Ephesians

[understandBPD]

What do you think the likelihood is (%) that she will shift from where she has been for the last six months to "surrendering herself completely" to you as a "condition" and "first step" to discussing marriage reconciliation?

I think it depends on her conviction and how strong her faith really is but i agree its probably not a high % at this point.

What does "surrendering" mean in this context?

It means following Gods word as the bible instructs. Loving your husband and submitting to him , accepting i am her husband and she should trust and listen to me. She would send me videos and blog posts from Pastor Steven Anderson and The Transformed Wife as "Role models" of the type of marriage and beliefs she had but when those directly contradicted her behaviours then all of sudden they weren't as important anymore.

At one point we were speaking with the Transformed wife's husband (Ken alexander) who was was trying to counsel us and even he couldn't really see the issue and she ended up telling him she didn't want anymore help and he basically said there's not much u can do but pray she softens her heart.

Before we were married she was all about following Gods word she would never question her husband or disrespect him etc etc we spoke in detail for months about the type of marriage we wanted and she was completely onboard in fact she had a even more submissive view than i did in terms of how a wife should be.

Then we get married and she's got a rebellious attitude and struggles with doing all the things she claimed were according to God have constant issues with her listening and submitting.

I am not a very demanding husband all i really expect is loyalty , unconditional love and to avoid having male friends and i don't think this is a lot of expectations to have from someone who claimed they would never divorce and remarrying is sinful and that if God forbid something happened she wouldn't ever be able to move on and would just live a life separated/alone.

She had freedom to have any female friends she wanted and to go out any day or time (within reason not late night out all night) she wanted and do anything that obviously did not involve being around other men. I was teaching her to drive so i could get her a car and she had money to go out whenever she needed.

It's disappointing to see that when her husband was having a difficult time and i communicated that to her she also was struggling but decided to throw in the towel and go home and block me. That's not love or being loyal at all and if our marriage is falling apart due to such minor issues how would it survive any more difficult ones ? There's couples who have affairs , addictions , physical abuse and all sorts of insane issues there's couple with financial issues and don't have a roof over there head or struggle to eat week to week our issues in comparisson are a joke and we should be thankful for what God has given us.

The doormat phase is long gone i know what i want and what im willing to compromise on and its not going to be with someone who has half a foot out the door my entire life she either commits and is 100% in till death do us part which is what she promises before during and after the marriage or off she goes and may God deal with her sin and disloyalty accordingly.

[Skip]

You:

i know what i want and what im willing to compromise on and its not going to be with someone who has half a foot out the door my entire life she either commits and is 100% in till death do us part which is what she promises before during and after the marriage or off she goes

Her:

At one point we were speaking with the Transformed wife's husband (Ken alexander) who was was trying to counsel us and even he couldn't really see the issue and she ended up telling him she didn't want anymore help and he basically said there's not much u can do but pray she softens her heart.

Prognosis:

[Agreeing to your requirements as a condition to trying to talk through the marriage issues] i agree its probably not a high % at this point.

On your current trajectory ("your" meaning the two of you), it sounds like you have irreconcilable differences. You (collectively) are deep into Gottman's stage 4 and going deeper. In another six months, you (collectively) will reach the courts' definition of irreconcilable differences and either of you has a straight path to divorce.

Evolving Faith: The Christian source you describe, Steven Anderson, is controversial as he publicly stated that the cure for AIDs is "executing the homos like God recommends." At the very least, we can say that Anderson preaches a stricter interpretation of the bible than most bible churches. "What is allowed" differs from "What is asked of us".

To be clear, I am not questioning your beliefs. I'm pointing this out because she may not have the same commitment as you have, or she has evolved in her walk after being tested and realizes that she no longer has the same commitment. Faith is ever-evolving. And I think it's also fair to say that there are many devot Baptists or other devot Christians that share a more liberal interpretation of Ephesians ("what is allowed" is different than "what is asked of us").

Mirroring: We all mirror the values of someone we are in love with, especially in the early stages of a relationship. Finding common ground is how humans bond. People with BPD or BPD traits will do this to a greater extent than otherwise healthy people and then pull back to their own independent beliefs in time - sometimes with resentment that the non-BPD partner did not understand and reward their sacrifice. This eventual disconnect can be very confusing to us. You are not the first person to say "she used to believe A" and now she doesn't stand by it.

Problem Solving: People with BPD or BPD traits are not good problem solvers because their problems are often exaggerated in their minds, and when people try to talk them through problems, reality invalidates what the person with BPD is feeling. To compensate, people with BPD or BPD often abandon situations that become increasingly difficult to avoid the invalidation - they run away and start anew somewhere else. New is easier.

Our wounds: For many of us here (all of us here?), we didn't have great emotional intelligence, human nature skills, or a secure attachment style when we got into these relationships, and we suffered massive ego wounds when the relationship ran into problems. These wounds ran deep and had us doubting our self-worth and even our reality.

She may have caused you to be wounded, but it was deficiencies in our emotional intelligence, human nature skills, or attachment style that allowed the wounds to cut so deep. Our partners can't fix this for us. We have to fix it ourselves (with our therapists or mentors).

Bottom line, if you don't solve this it won't get solved. By your own admission, the current trajectory has very little chance of working. And I am suggesting that the tools you are using will be no more successful in the future than they have been in the past.

I'm not trying to talk you into doing a 180º. I'm just showing you what is in play. It's complicated. Resolving this, if it can be resolved, will take a great deal of strength, grace, and patience. These are Christian values. One could say this is what we are asked to do when our marriage is facing demise. To find the strength, grace, and patience to do our best to see it through.

You can look at this and say, that's not for me, Skip. It may not be, and that's a valid position on a number of levels. We all respect that. A special needs person will always be challenging.

[understandBPD]

On your current trajectory ("your" meaning the two of you), it sounds like you have irreconcilable differences.

I disagree the behaviour does not match the actions its like being married for 4 years and 1 day your partner makes your coffee wrong and then you go home to your parents and block your partner permanently its ridiculous and childish.

I don't think wanting / expecting the person i am meant to of committed myself to for life to also share that same commitment and not want someone who does not understand what loyalty and commitment is all of sudden after years of discussion and telling me how important marriage is and how she would never leave or divorce then ups and leaves over the most minor issues.

I'm pointing this out because she may not have the same commitment as you have

She was the 1 who introduced me to pastor anderson and the transformed wifes content which is literally about disobedient wifes learning to submit to there husbands and surrender to find peace and happiness in marriage.

It's bit late to have "evolving" beliefs after years of preaching 1 way and making promises and commitments to later on just go against everything you've stood for

You can look at this and say, that's not for me, Skip. It may not be, and that's a valid position on a number of levels. We all respect that.

I don't exactly understand what your asking of me ? or what you expect me to do differently ?

The reality is she left me when i needed her the most. I've then been treated incredibly poorly by her family and completely disrespected and discarded by her with no empathy whatsoever.

All of this comes ontop of not only compromising and making dramatic changes in my life that she asked me to make but also travelling across the world to see her and she couldn't even show the decency to meet me face to face willingly. It's now been 6 months i've still kept calm i haven't lost my patience i've been trying to show her that i've been learning about emotional intillegence and validation etc i've read books and written letters.

I've shown nothing but love and kindness to someone who has treated me like i am nothing and garbage and when i say im not going to be a doormat and let her run the relationship or marriage that isn't going to change that's not saying i won't compromise and work with her i want the marriage to work i really do but her lack of maturity and stonewalling means it really does not matter what i do nothing has changed on her side at all.

She has serious issues that she needs to be accountable for and take responsibility for she can't just continue ruining peoples lives like this.

If you can explain to me what exactly your asking me to do that you think im unwilling to do so i can at least understand because right now i don't think there's anything i could personally do to change this situation it seems entirely up to her to correct her own behaviour ?