Do you honestly believe people with BPD can change?

[Cait]

I'm writing on a night where thinking about my brother leaves me feeling hopeless.

He has intense BPD, is emotionally abusive towards me and my parents and has never been able to hold down a job despite being over 30. He threatens suicide a lot and has been miserable with his life (his description) for the last decade+. Not only do I grieve the loss of a normal sibling relationship, but I feel sad for him and the state of his life. He's been in multiple expensive treatment centers, years of therapy and even done intensive DBT and nothing has helped. I don't know why. If anything it's worse because he has all the therapeutic language and concepts now that he twists to be manipulative.

I think about his future and I feel hopeless. I used to think it would get better but as the years go by and the list of things to try dwindle, I am coming to accept that he might just be this way forever. Which gets me to my question: In your experience, do you think people with BPD can change? Whether it's through treatment or age etc, have you ever seen anyone get better? The literature on BPD says that many people improve, but I just don't see it. Am curious to hear what others say.

[SaltyDawg]

That is the million dollar question - can a pwBPD change...

I will share with you my experiences with a few pwBPD that I am very familiar with...

1.  uBPD/uOCPDw - Yes, she is partially self-aware of both, has a good moral compass, and is in therapy (is being treated for the symptoms, but is not aware of having any PD since the T has told her so - I understand the reasoning, but do not agree with it) and has made significant changes in the past year for the better to 'tolerable' levels.  She is a 'high functioning' pwBPD.  Intelligence is valedictorian smart.  For the display of anger symptom, my wife can literally 'will' herself not to do this symptom with only a couple hours of therapy - like a light-switch.  However, the other symptoms are much more difficult for her to manage.  She could not hold the same position for more than 2 years except her last one, but then she also has relationship issue with those around her at work in addition to at home too.  She has been suicidal.

2.  uBPDs with ODD tendencies - Has 5/9 symptoms (including suicidal ideation when stressed out with abandonment issues of sleep-away camp), too young to diagnose.  Refuses therapy; however, with my and (1) modeling good better behavior, his symptoms have improved except when under stress.  His mind is still developing, and is improving - my (1) is lucent enough to use therapy techniques on him that many of which she cannot recognize for herself.  (1) is a 'work in progress'.  He is a 'high functioning' pwBPD and will hopefully diminish with time.  He is a straight-A student.

3.  uBPD/uNPDexgf - No, not aware of her PD's, professes willingness to make changes for the better, but did not, did not seek therapy therapy in spite of having a really messed up childhood.  After she cheated on me not once, but twice, I left her, and she completely self-destructed a year and some months later.  I believe that she 'hit bottom' and might have made some minor improvements; however, she is estranged from both of her children.  One is thriving, the other is not (he also had dODD)   She is a 'traditional' pwBPD.  Barely passed high school, failed out of community college.  She also could not hold down a job for more than a few months.  No suicidal ideation, probably due to the NPD component.

4.  dBPD-T (peer mentor who is also a licensed counselor) - She reached out to me in a private message in a group similar to this one.  She is partially self aware, working on herself for 17 years with minimal gains currently in her low 40's.  Had a really messed up childhood.  It took me two months of describing one of her most destructive behaviors (that my wife previously had) to reveal her self-destructive 'fear of abandonment' where her DH would be late in calling/texting her that he was running late, and she would completely dysregulate on him in a span of 1/2 an hour and accuse him of cheating on her when he missed a check-in time - this dysregulation lasted for 3-4 days, and would happen 3-4 times per month.  I was able to teach my wife how to cope with this particular behavior without knowledge of BPD early on in our relationship and it wasn't as intense or as frequent as this T's.  Most accomplished academically of the bunch with PhD and MS degrees in a variety of fields and is a cross between a traditional (symptom severity) and high functioning (academic accomplishment).  Did not mention she was suicidal when I talked about my wife's suicidal ideation.


1, 2, & 4 were physically violent from time to time, 3 was not.


From my personal research into BPD, I have become familiar (passing acquaintances) with many more pwBPD, some can change, others cannot.

I also realize that I am a BPD magnet, and persons with BPD naturally seek me out.  I now have CRAY(zy)-DAR and can see them a mile away.  I interact with them minimally (most only one time and they are generally quite happy to overshare with me) out of curiosity; however, I do not enable a relationship with them and maintain strict boundaries when interacting with them.

To summarize, YES, I do think the more mild cases of BPD can change; however, all of the following must exist in the pwBPD in order for them to change:

+ Self-awareness - If a pwBPD is not self-aware fully or partially, then they do not know what to fix.  Sometimes a formal diagnoses will make them self-aware.  More often than not, these pwBPD have a better chance at becoming self-aware than those that are not.  And even if they are aware of all of the symptoms (more than 5), they cannot connect the dots that are specifically written in the DSM-5 like (1)+(2) like my wife; however, even with partial self-awareness there is progress.

+ Be willing to fix themselves - A pwBPD must have reached their 'rock bottom' much like an alcoholic reaches theirs.  They must convince themselves that they need to get better; otherwise they will not.  Only they can do this for themselves.  For my wife, it took a strong lecture from a family court judge (spouse of a friend) to read her the riot act on losing her children for violent behaviors.

+ Have a strong moral compass OR good work ethic OR adequate motivation to get better OR a comorbid condition such as OCPD that will actually help them change.  Anywhere from 5-50% of borderlines also have OCPD depending on which study you view.  (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10045094/pdf/behavsci-13-00253.pdf lists 42-50% comorbidity).

So, in addition to my 'yes' answer, it is also a 'no' for the more severe ones who are not willing to change.  However, this can change, but it becomes increasingly unlikely as they get older.  My wife started her change at age 50 (rapid), my son at age 10 (rapid), the dBPD-T at age +/- 24 (slow), but I am not aware of any significant change for the exgf at age 34 at the time she and I split.  I am stating my observations, some can improve, others cannot.

From my observations BPD improves with age until about age 26-34 where it plateaus until age 50 +/- a few years and then gets worse due to old age changes and is more pronounced in females going through menopause and perimenopause and the age aspect is confirmed by a recent post by https://www.facebook.com/catherinelcsw and is consistent with her post on the 16th of October on slide 2/3 at https://m.facebook.com/story.php/?id=100063607657642&story_fbid=818631523600429

When reaching the age of 30, more often than not, total abandonment is the only incentive strong enough to force them into wanting to fix their situation, and even then this may not be enough.

Cait, for your specific case, hopefully I am wrong; however, I fear that your brother will likely not change much now that he has reached the age of 30, as he has been hospitalized several times for it.  I can empathise and sympathise with your sense of hopelessness, but I don't want to paint a picture of hope, when I don't see one for him.

My suggestion is to distance yourself from the 'drama', take care of your own well being, and only expend the amount of energy that you feel you can spare for your brother's drama without impacting your own well being too much.  This may mean setting firm boundaries with limited contact (LC), or if that is too much cut him off completely with no contact (NC).  Your own personal health and well-being should not suffer, you are entitled to pursue happiness just as much as anyone else is.

I'm writing on a night where thinking about my brother leaves me feeling hopeless.

He has intense BPD, is emotionally abusive towards me and my parents and has never been able to hold down a job despite being over 30. He threatens suicide a lot and has been miserable with his life (his description) for the last decade+. Not only do I grieve the loss of a normal sibling relationship, but I feel sad for him and the state of his life. He's been in multiple expensive treatment centers, years of therapy and even done intensive DBT and nothing has helped. I don't know why. If anything it's worse because he has all the therapeutic language and concepts now that he twists to be manipulative.

I think about his future and I feel hopeless. I used to think it would get better but as the years go by and the list of things to try dwindle, I am coming to accept that he might just be this way forever. Which gets me to my question: In your experience, do you think people with BPD can change? Whether it's through treatment or age etc, have you ever seen anyone get better? The literature on BPD says that many people improve, but I just don't see it. Am curious to hear what others say.

[Notwendy]

I think it depends. BPD is on a spectrum. Part of the condition is denial and projection- and avoidance of shame. This makes it hard for them to see the effects of their behavior on others and they assume that they are the "victim" of interactions with others.

I think for any person to change- they themselves need to want to do the work to change. For that to happen, they need some insight into their own behavior. It also takes work and time for any change for even a behavior or a habit.

I think for someone with mild BPD, if they have the insight and motivation to work at it- they can make improvements.

I have an elderly mother with severe BPD. She has had therapy many many times. It has not ever worked. Talking to her about anything she is doing- it's as if she has a force field around her like the spaceships in movies. Nothing gets through to her. Her thinking rejects it. She will dissociate sometimes or rage back. Eventually what you say to her gets projected back as anger and rage.

She sees herself in victim position. My father cared about her. Her children and extended family have tried to. She can't see it. She perceives people as hurting her, neglecting her.

I have wondered if my father's enabling has contributed to this but the more I interact with her, I think this is who she is. I recall seeing an argument between my mother and her father when I was a teen. It was the same dynamic. Nothing he said "got through" to her and she just yelled at him back. I remember this because it was distressing to see.

One way to look at this is to consider past behavior as a predictor. If a person has not ever had therapy and seems interested in considering it- then we may not be able to predict if it will work or not, and we don't know until they try.

With your brother- he's had therapy many times- it has not made a difference for him. This would lessen my expectations that it would work another time.

With my mother I don't believe that she's capable of insight or change. One thing to consider is that the PD's overlap some. My mother has a lot of NPD traits as well. I think this contributes to the resistance to change. She's also manipulative and abusive. I also feel sad for her for the situations she has gotten herself into.

I think it's normal to grieve the loss of the relationship we wish we could have with a family member. I have grieved this as well, however, I also recognize that my mother is not capable of the kind of relationship I would hope to have. In addition, I don't want to allow her to be abusive to me. It's hard to do, but you can keep an emotional distance from your brother, for your own self protection.

[Methuen]

You have been through a lot with your brother.  I am sorry for all that has happened.

I was very interested when I first learned that the inventor of DBT - the gold standard for BPD treatment- was herself BPD and institutionalized as a teenager. If you’re not familiar, it’s a remarkable story - check it out on the internet.

On the other hand, there’s a bunch of us on this site who suffer with elderly moms with BPD (and many whose moms have passed but the suffering doesn’t seem to stop).  BPD is also in men - like your brother.

I agree with NW that it’s a spectrum.  And what SaltyDawg says makes a lot of sense.

I agree that at some point we have to let go of feeling responsible for supporting them when they won’t do the work they must do to help themselves. I feel there is a time when our feeling responsible to help them becomes “enabling”.  As much as I loved and cared for my mom, I had to recognize that she was who she is, she told me she liked who she was and I should stop trying to change her. Zero awareness.

She’s dysfunctional. So completely and totally dysfunctional.

Trying to be her support was destroying me, sucking the joy out of my life, and I was living inside a hurricane I couldn’t escape. 

I had to accept she was who she was, she wasn’t going to change, and I had to change my own expectations of her and of myself. I couldn’t expect myself to take care of her anymore.

I totally support what others have said that you must take care of you.  Yourself is someone you can save and help.  Your brother - he is an adult- and will do things his way.  Maybe it will eventually work and maybe it won’t.  But ultimately he is responsible for that, not you. 

The guilt really sucks, but it can get better with T.  I can’t speak for your brother, but I see now that my mother raised me to be her caretaker.  I was an only child, and I was in my 50’s before it began to dawn on me that this wasn’t normal - that parents were supposed to take care of their kids, not the other way around.  The brainwashing was so strong I didn’t even question my role with parenting my mother, when I became a parent to my own children.  Looking back, it’s just crazy.

While it sounds like your brother is hard core and no amount of T helped, he at least was willing to go to T and try it. So that is something.

My mom refused to even try T her entire life. She wouldn’t consider it for her H, who was also willing to go with her to support her. She wasn’t willing to go after he died (I was in my 40s at the time with little kids at home) when I was supporting her to try T, and I also offered to go with her.  It was always a clear no, followed by a rage that other people could dare suggest there was something wrong with her.  She always finds a way to twist things.

I have concluded that not everyone can be helped.  I am 61 now.

[Methuen]

thinking about my brother leaves me feeling hopeless.

Last thought- since the modify button isn’t working -
 
Could you reframe this thought?

Instead of feeling hopeless  - which is a lack of control to be able to do anything to make it better- say:

“I accept that I cannot change this for him.”

Acceptance has been a significant step for me.  Are you familiar with the term “radical acceptance”?  It’s in the information segment on this site.

[Pook075]

Hey Cait!  Glad you posted this since it's a great topic.

In my experiences with a BPD wife and daughter, plus several great candidates in my wife's immediate family, I believe that someone with BPD can change ONCE THEY WANT TO CHANGE.

My daughter in particular, she was an absolute terror from her teenage years into her early 20's.  Abused the heck out of us and would go out of her way to "punish us" for trying to discipline her.  I honestly wondered if there was something demonic going on at times, it was that bad. 

However, same kid, same time all this was going on, she was super kind, compassionate, and fiercely loyal to her friends.  She would do anything for them and they saw this super loving friend that they could always count on for everything, regardless what the situation was.

Can you see where I'm going with this?  Monster at home, great gal when hanging out with friends.  How is that possible?

The problem here is not that those with BPD are terrible people, it's that they lash out at those they're closest to when they feel neglected.  All my kids friends were not the right types of friends, and one by one all of those relationships imploded.  Then they saw what we saw, the wrath and anger.  Why?  Because my daughter felt betrayed, so it was scorched Earth for those responsible.

Now, many years later, my kid went through DBT at a low point in her life and she desperately wanted change.  Now, her and I are like best friends.  She tells me everything and cares about me so much.  The life changes I've seen the past year or so have been miraculous, so I know without a shadow of a doubt that BPD's can change.

But if we go back a few paragraphs, the way my daughter treats me today is how she treated her loser friends many years ago.  So it's not her heart that changed or her ability to love, it's her perception of who to love and trust.

At 25, my kid still makes very dumb mistakes at times, horrible judgement in trusting the wrong people and getting burned for it.  She had an altercation the other day, completely melted down on someone who was in the wrong.  I told her that she lashed out a little too hard and she replied, "Daddy, you should be proud of me.  My initial thought was to break both of his kneecaps with a bat. I really wanted to do it but chose not to."

Is she cured?  Heck no.  Has she changed?  Well, the guy still has his kneecaps and I have a fantastic loving relationship with her.  That's the best I've got.

[Notwendy]

I am glad you have had good results with your daughter. I think a key here is that she herself hit a bottom "low point" and made her own decision to change. I think there are varying factors that lead to this- one is the person's own ability for insight as well as if they are being enabled, and also what other behaviors are involved and the personal characteristics of the person with BPD.

A friend of mine has a daughter in her 20's with BPD. I know they have done everything they can to help her and they love her very much. However, she also has drug addiction which can go along with BPD. She is also very attractive and so, is able to attract other enablers- men who are also involved in drugs and can supply them. This friend and her husband have provided their D with the best of rehab and treatment plans but without effect.

This young lady is not a bad person. I have known her since she was a small child. She didn't grow up in a bad situation- she has loving parents who provided all a child might need, and a secure home. It's just an unfortunate combination of her own make up and personality.

I feel the same way about my BPD mother. She grew up in a solid family. I do suspect abuse of some sort- not on the part of her immediate family but I have wondered if there was a distant relative or neighbor who did something - due to some of her behaviors and the extent of her dissociation. I don't have any proof of that though. My father gave her everything he possibly could. In their dynamics, he enabled her. I also wondered what impact this might have had, but now, as I have tried to reason with her - I see that there's no possible way to do that. Her thinking is that distorted. My father would eventually just give in as attempting to reason or discuss something doesn't work with her and he didn't know what else to do at the time. She also has NPD traits.

I think my main point is- if someone has a BPD family member who has been able to make personal changes- that is wonderful. For families whose efforts to get the pwBPD help- I don't believe it's due to anything they did or didn't do. It isn't their fault. I have seen my father and my friend provide the best of treatments to their loved one with BPD- but this can only work if the person with BPD has some investment in them.

Being POA to my elderly BPD mother has put me in a front row position with her. Regardless of anything that went on between us in the past, I take this role seriously- to act in her best interest. However, she still is able to be self determined and some of her wishes/actions are self destructive. Inevitably, this becomes a conflict as I try to respect her autonomy as much as possible but I can't condone her behaviors. Through this situation, I have learned how difficult it is to reason with her. All her family members have tried. When she wants something, she doesn't care what she has to do or who she hurts in order to get it. She's too small to take out someone's knee caps but she will lie, manipulate, and be emotionally/verbally abusive to attain what she wants. She's had a lot of therapy and none of it has been effective for her.

[Pook075]

My ex wife (quiet BPD) and daughter (traditional BPD) are similar to that, although they do it in different ways.  If you cross my kid, you're going to see explosive rage and manipulation.  If you cross my ex, you'll see her shut down as she manipulates everyone against you.  But both are loving, caring women as well and its really heartbreaking.

The thing that changed my relationship with my daughter was a single comment she made about a year ago.  She told my sister in law (with me sitting there) that she was a terrible child and was horrible to my wife and I.  She said that she would do absolutely anything to go back in time and take it back, because she couldn't see how much we loved her and tried to help.

That shocked me to the core and I was unable to respond for a couple of days.  She had never apologized for anything, so a statement like that was so out of place that I couldn't even process it.  I finally responded to her in a letter because I wanted her to have it in writing, and I told her that I loved her and forgave her for absolutely everything.  And it wasn't just words, because my heart had truly changed in that moment. 

It was ultimately me forgiving her completely that allowed our relationship to truly change.

I share this because my kid obviously still has BPD.  The DBT has taught her how to better cope in stressful situations and show some empathy towards others that she has conflict with.  So don't get me wrong here, it makes a ton of difference.  The person who had to change though to make our relationship work was actually me...I had to let go of the pain and heartache that she caused us over the years. 

In a big way, that's why my marriage imploded, my wife and I couldn't agree on anything in regards to how to care for our rebellious daughter.  I always had to be the bad guy with strict boundaries while my wife just said, "Go ask your dad."  It's the only thing we ever really fought over and it was so traumatizing to my wife, she'd shut down completely and cry for days at a time. 

But at the end of the day, it made sense to forgive everyone, my kid and my ex, because I didn't want to carry that pain in my heart any longer.  It's what allowed me to heal and grow as a person, and now I handle conversations with the BPD's in my life so much better because I understand how much they're hurting at times and how powerless they feel in the moment.

My daughter still does incredibly dumb stuff at times, because that impulse to run and act without thinking about the consequences is still there in full force.  At least now though she'll call me in the act and ask me if I think it's a good idea...and the reason she's calling is because deep down she probably knows that it's a terrible life choice. 

Our relationship isn't perfect by any means but she trusts me enough to be completely transparent, which allows us to have real conversations about what's going on instead of the snap judgements and explosions that come out of nowhere.  It's so much easier to lovingly talk out real problems, and we're at that place because of my healing and my attitude towards her.  If we hadn't taken that step, then the random drama would still be there causing chaos while we fought over nothing.

I share this with everyone not to say, "Ooh, look what I did," but to illustrate how our stability plays such an important role in BPD relationships.  And don't get me wrong, I'm still an absolute mess at times.  My relationship with my kid is strong enough though where I can be human and receive her empathy.

[Notwendy]

I agree- what changed my relationship with my mother was becoming less emotionally reactive to her. It was 12 step programs that helped with this. A part of this is to manage and let go of resentments. Forgiveness is part of that. For me, I believe that part is done.

If my mother were a competent and independent adult, then her behavior would not be my business to try to manage or control. This is how it has been for a while. However, she's now elderly and needs assistance and I am her POA. I can't allow her to do harm to herself, but this becomes a conflict when she doesn't get to do what she wants to do if it's a danger to herself.

All her family members have tried to reason with her and help her. They get the same result. It's not an issue of forgiveness, it's an ongoing situation of trying to do the best for her while she herself is an impediment to our best efforts. I don't want anything from her. I just want to make the best decisions on her behalf and she resists them. The limiting factor in the relationship is her inability to actually have a relationship. The doors to one with her family have been open for her.

Your daughter's statements of insight are remarkable. If I had ever heard or seen a sincere equivalent to a desire on my mother's part to do better- I'd have jumped at the chance. I agree- if there's that possibility- then meet them more than halfway. But there's no halfway with BPD mother. She's too mentally ill.

We can do what we can, but there's not one thing we can do to change their thinking if they don't have the capacity to perceive others beyond their own projections.

[Methuen]

Forgiveness is certainly a part of the equation.  Like you say, carrying all that pain and heartache she had caused you all those years was a heavy load.  

The thing that changed my relationship with my daughter was a single comment she made about a year ago.  She told my sister in law (with me sitting there) that she was a terrible child and was horrible to my wife and I.  She said that she would do absolutely anything to go back in time and take it back, because she couldn't see how much we loved her and tried to help.

This was such a gift.  Remarkable. This might be the first story like this I’ve read in my 4 ish years on this board. NW has spoken about the need for awareness if there is to be progress with the BPD and in  their relationships. This is a great example of that awareness.  

Like the old adage says, “it takes two”.

I am curious: do you know what inspired her to say that then?

Also, if she hadn’t said that, but carried on with her earlier behaviors which presumably stirred up much chaos ( including between you and your wife), would anything be different today?

The point I’m getting from your story is that if the pw BPD extends the unexpected olive branch, the non has to also have the awareness to recognize it, and the willingness to release their own pain, rather than choosing to hang on to it.

In your case, It took two (with awareness) for the relationship to be repaired.

Such a gift.

[Pook075]

I am curious: do you know what inspired her to say that then?

This conversation happened while we were visiting my brother, who was days away from dying of cancer.  About five of us were sitting on a back porch while my brother slept, and we were all quietly reflecting on life as we held half-hearted conversation.  I mean, what do you say in those situations that really matter?  My brother was at the end and we were all grieving.

I can't remember the exact conversation, but my sister in law said something about regrets- never taking that trip they had always planned, not doing more things together as a family, etc.  My sister in law said that she wished she could go back and change some things, and that's when my daughter made the comment.

Also, if she hadn’t said that, but carried on with her earlier behaviors which presumably stirred up much chaos ( including between you and your wife), would anything be different today?

Everything would be different because I was so angry all the time and I blamed everything on my kid.  And while I loved her with all my heart, I also hated her and had absolutely no idea how to balance that.

I remember before leaving on that trip, my wife and my younger daughter begged me to to take my BPD kid.  They said we'd argue the entire time and my daughter would say something outrageously selfish in front of family that would humiliate everyone.  And I remember thinking, yeah...probably so.  But she deserves to say goodbye to her uncle.  I was pretty stressed out over the trip and I decided to fly us down just to avoid a long drive in the car together.

When my daughter said what she said, it improved our relationship and we had a great time together at my brother's house (under the circumstances, of course.  It was a terrible trip).  But my forgiveness to her, that's what actually allowed us to become close again and fully let go of the past.

It's also what made me decide to file for divorce last month.  While I still love my wife and want the world for her, she's not ready to forgive and live in the present.  I feel very confident that if I waited this out, we could have a successful marriage again.  But at what cost?  I deserve to be happy now just like she does.  So I've apologized to my wife and fully forgiven her, letting go of that past heartache. 

And while we're not close anymore, it's allowed her to stop painting me black and actually have productive conversations with mutual respect and understanding. For example, she texted me a few minutes ago and said that my BPD kid was out of her medications.  That wouldn't have happened six months ago.  It happened today though because my wife realizes that I'm no longer judging her or holding onto the past. 

In other words, I don't need her forgiveness or even an apology to actually forgive her.  I just have to love her as a friend and have her best interests at heart, regardless of how she feels about me.  That's what let me heal and it all started with the realization of how wrong I was for being angry at my kid.

I hope that helps!

[TelHill]

Am the daughter of an elderly dBPD mom. I was groomed from a young age to be her parent and caregiver. I missed the life lesson so mentioned above: you cannot change another person. 

I feel sorry for my mom. I believe her bpd is genetic. She's had the opportunity to attend therapy many times. She has a strong phobia getting close to others. I've seen her display paranoia and delusions.

Nothing I've done has helped change her or even brought relief for her. Standing out of the way has been the best for my own mental health.

[Notwendy]

The idea of love is interesting. To my mother, "love" means doing what she wants me to do, which also puts me in conflict with what I believe is the best thing for her and also best for my own safety.

If I give in to her, if I allow her to be abusive or self destructive, then I am enabling her to act in an unethical or dangerous way. I am enabling the worst of her, not the best of her. If I hold a boundary with her, I don't do that but she doesn't like it and doesn't feel she is being loved.

To her "honor a parent" is obeying her wishes without question.

It's a struggle regardless. We don't have a warm and fuzzy relationship.

She's been unable to keep up with her bills. I had her mail forwarded to me. I have access to her bank account. There were late fees on the cards. I sent my POA to the credit card company to be able to ask them about charges to make sure they were legitimate and to forward payment from her account to them so she has no more late fees.

It dawned on me that - I am honoring her by protecting her finances and her credit to the best of my ability. I am honoring her by not letting her default on her payments or letting her be subjected to fraud. This may not be her idea of what I should be doing, but, it's something in her best interest none the less. If it comes down to it, I will discontinue her cards if I have to, in her own interest. She will be mad as all get go if I do. She will hate me for it. But it's still for her own good.

[kells76]

Hi Cait, hope you have been doing okay since you last shared with us.

I'm writing on a night where thinking about my brother leaves me feeling hopeless.

He has intense BPD, is emotionally abusive towards me and my parents and has never been able to hold down a job despite being over 30. He threatens suicide a lot and has been miserable with his life (his description) for the last decade+. Not only do I grieve the loss of a normal sibling relationship, but I feel sad for him and the state of his life. He's been in multiple expensive treatment centers, years of therapy and even done intensive DBT and nothing has helped. I don't know why. If anything it's worse because he has all the therapeutic language and concepts now that he twists to be manipulative.

I think about his future and I feel hopeless. I used to think it would get better but as the years go by and the list of things to try dwindle, I am coming to accept that he might just be this way forever. Which gets me to my question: In your experience, do you think people with BPD can change? Whether it's through treatment or age etc, have you ever seen anyone get better? The literature on BPD says that many people improve, but I just don't see it. Am curious to hear what others say.

In my mind, addressing the question of if pwBPD can change (for the better, I'm assuming!), I think it depends on the individual. While BPD is a spectrum disorder, pwBPD aren't abstract people. Each pwBPD, occupying some different part of the spectrum of intensity, is a unique human being with unique motivations, morals, values, abilities, contexts, etc.

I have heard of some pwBPD who have a religious/spiritual foundation reflecting on their morals and values and using that as motivation to make changes. However, it is also probably easy to find examples of pwBPD who would describe themselves as religious or spiritual, but who use that as a justification for poor behavior.

So maybe that is to say -- two different pwBPD could fall at "the same place" on the spectrum of BPD intensity; however, due to different circumstances, one could choose to try to change for the better, and the other one would not. Just some thoughts.

...

I know you've mentioned grieving your brother, even though he is still alive. What has that process been like for you?

In the past, did you have some hope that despite the fact that your brother has BPD, he might be a "treatable" or "recover-able" pwBPD?

[Cait]

Hi everyone, thank you so much for your thoughtful replies. Your stories and examples were helpful to read.

I agree that it seems to depend on the person, and that ultimately it is out of our control. If BPD exists on a spectrum, I would say my brother is at the high end of the spectrum (low functioning) and perhaps less likely to be able to change.

@Kells76, to answer your question, yes, I did believe in the past that my brother's BPD was treatable. I thought that if he got help and was motivated to change (which it seemed like at the time), he could change his behavior to live a healthier life and perhaps have a relationship with me. He's been in top of the line treatment centers specifically for BPD for months at a time, with good reviews and testimonials, I had hope something would come of it. Even though I radically accept that my brother has BPD and is not able to have a healthy relationship with me, I still feed sad. I also feel heartbroken for my parents. They aren't perfect, but they tried their best with both of us and provided a loving and stable environment - in my view, nothing in our childhood or their parenting would have ever predicted this outcome for my brother, which is hard to reconcile.

I've worked hard in my own therapy to focus on myself and my own wellbeing. I have children and my own family to care for. I have had very little contact/almost no contact with my brother for months and feel a mix of emotions - relief since my life is much more calm, peaceful and happy yet I still feel guilty. I struggle with wondering what he is in control of. For instance, @Pook075, you mention that you believe someone with BPD can change ONLY if they want to. And @Notwendy, your take is that there are a combination of factors and there's a possibility the person with BPD does not have the insight to do this. Like your experience with your mother, I feel there is no way to reason with my brother. Talking to him feels like being in an alternative reality sometimes.

I think a part of why I was asking the question about change was to make sense of my own guilt. Like if they could change if they wanted to, then it's easier to accept that I just have to step away and let him live his life, no matter how abusive/destructive, because that is his choice. But if he doesn't have the ability to change and BPD is an illness he has little control over, then I feel awful for going low/no contact, even if it is to preserve my own mental health and wellbeing. I'm not sure why I get caught up in that distinction - it's as if I am trying to understand what is my brother's true self and what is the illness, when the truth is I will never know because it's all intertwined. In my darkest moments, sometimes I wish my brother had a straightforward illness like cancer because it would be easier to grieve and easier to provide support. With BPD, it's so hard because I so badly want to be a good sister and loving family member to him and yet the illness and his behavior makes me have to put up strong boundaries to protect myself. It's really difficult to understand.

Thank you all for listening and providing valuable insight.

[Notwendy]

I think you have described the heartbreak of the relationship. They are so close to "normal" that you have hope and yet, speaking to them is like an alternate universe. Others have mentioned the same thing to me about my mother. "At first it seems she's all there but as the conversation continues you can see her unravel".  Everything is someone else's fault or something else's fault. It's impossible to get through to her.

I don't think one needs to know that the person can not help it to keep a distance from a toxic person or if the person is abusive to you- emotionally, verbally, or physical. Understanable that you feel badly about it, but you can not fix this for him and you don't have to enable him to treat you poorly.

[zachira]

I have been thinking about your post for a long time and how to respond. It can look like a person has a personality disorder because of other untreated mental illness like substance abuse. Once the other mental illnesses are successfully  treated, the personality disorder remains if indeed there is one with no real hope of meaningful long term changes. What has been confusing for me, is how people with personality disorders can pretend to be somebody they aren't because they want to impress and manipulate others and how so many people fall for the performances. Those of us who have close family members with personality disorders and are the targets of their dysregulated emotions usually eventually learn that we cannot control the rages they project onto us and have to practice self care to protect our long term well being and sanity.

[Pook075]

I think a part of why I was asking the question about change was to make sense of my own guilt. Like if they could change if they wanted to, then it's easier to accept that I just have to step away and let him live his life, no matter how abusive/destructive, because that is his choice. But if he doesn't have the ability to change and BPD is an illness he has little control over, then I feel awful for going low/no contact, even if it is to preserve my own mental health and wellbeing.

I completely understand that heartache and in a way, it changes the question to something so much more complicated.

The example that came to mind was, "Can people fly?"  The simple answer is no, we're not capable.  Yet some people jump off mountains with hang gliders, or make next-gen rockets to strap on their backs, or build small flying machines to pilot through the skies.  The real answer is 'yes, people can fly'...but only a select few of us with lots of money and even more courage.  It is definitely possible.

When we ask, "Can BPD people change?", they have to have several things happen in the right sequence, almost the perfect storm of emotions and acceptance.  Most never find that magic formula and spend their lives miserable and alone.  Its sad, really, because in those types of situations the people they trust the most are the ones the least likely to be able to get the message across.  So we wait, and pray, and hope, and watch.

In my case with my wife, no less than 20 close relatives and friends told her to seek therapy.  And at times, she agreed that there were some genuine benefits there to talking her stuff out and learning to heal, but she never could find the courage to admit that something could be wrong internally.  Nobody understood what was happening and they all assumed that I must have done something so dark and evil, it just couldn't be spoken. 

That happens because where we see BPD and an individual suffering, others see a victim that deserves sympathy and compassion for what others have done to him/her.  So they go through their entire lives feeling like a victim and playing out a completely alternative narrative.  They're not the problem, everyone around them that doesn't understand them is the problem.

The "actual truth" is somewhere in between.  People with BPD need treatment and they fail us.  But because they need unconditional love and support, we fail them as well.  And everyone walking on eggshells just compounds the issues and encourages more bad behavior. 

[Cait]

Yes, I think that's what is so hard about BPD - the truth is so blurry and it's not black and white.

To your point Pook075, I feel like my brother has failed himself, my parents and me in that his behavior is so destructive and toxic. And yet, I have failed my brother because I am not able to provide unconditional love and support as a family member because I need to protect my own wellbeing. And my parents have failed my brother because they try to support him and end up enabling him. It feels like there are often no winners when it comes to BPD, it's like you're damned if you do (try to help and support) and damned if you don't (go low/no contact). I feel sad thinking that my brother wants connection and to love/be loved, yet his actions and behavior make that virtually impossible to do in a healthy way. He's alienated everyone in his life except my parents, and I wonder what will happen when they eventually pass away. I'm not sure how I can live with myself knowing that he's alone and miserable. Yet I cannot support him or even be in contact with him if I want to protect my own wellbeing.

Thinking of you all as you walk this path with your family members, it's not easy. One thing that helps is to have compassion for everyone involved. I try to love my brother from afar and have compassion for him, even if I can't allow him to be close to me. And I try to have compassion for my parents and myself as we navigate what feels like a sad and impossible family situation.