Recent interaction - Advice?

[Depression = 72% of members]

After putting a lot of effort in last weekend to give my wife a break, massage/night away etc while I took the kids. On the sunday I went to see a friend for 2 ish hours.
I was pretty tired when I got back, baby and kids are tiring overnight. We were all lying on the bed resting at 9pm and she said "I guess you are pretty stoned arent you" and walked off.
It was a false accusation out of nowhere. I know I should have not engaged but I did, I said no I am not but why did you say that, and she told me to be quiet the kids are asleep.
She went downstairs.
So I went downstairs a few minutes later and said "I don't understand why you said that what were you feeling to say that".
She said she wasn't feeling anything I was lying down a lot. She figured that was going on. She didn't ask me she accused me which is the issue.

Then she changed it and said I couldn't take a joke and it was just banter. She feels she is walking on egg shells with me and doesn't know how to deal with me, and I should go away and come back to her on what she is and isnt allowed to say.

Anyway Later I said I would prefer she didn't accuse me of things and just asked me direct questions. But also I won't engage in future on false accusations so we don't get into an argument.
She kept trying to say it wasn't an accusation and denying what she said, I stayed firm and said lets agree to disagree, we have different opinions on what happened which is fine, lets just work on what to do in future.
She kept trying to insist it was a fact what happened and I was wrong and get me to agree. I kept saying I understand that's how you feel but I see it differently so lets leave it and work on what to do in the future.
At which she said she keeps biting her tongue around me and not saying things why can't I do the same.
I said that is exactly what I said I will do and not engage on these things so we don't argue.
And she said "Oh so we aren't going to communicate at all then"
It's so frustrating, how do I deal with this? She asks for me to bite my tongue and not react like she does. I agree (and had been suggesting that all along) and then she implies I am saying we arent going to talk at all?
100% crazy making. In my mind I am thinking I made the weekend super nice for her and she had text me how much she enjoyed it (of course would never thank me to my face), and this was some way of causing trouble for whatever reason.
How do I deal with this!

[CravingPeace]

After putting a lot of effort in last weekend to give my wife a break, massage/night away etc while I took the kids. On the sunday I went to see a friend for 2 ish hours.
I was pretty tired when I got back, baby and kids are tiring overnight. We were all lying on the bed resting at 9pm and she said "I guess you are pretty stoned arent you" and walked off.
It was a false accusation out of nowhere. I know I should have not engaged but I did, I said no I am not but why did you say that, and she told me to be quiet the kids are asleep.
She went downstairs.
So I went downstairs a few minutes later and said "I don't understand why you said that what were you feeling to say that".
She said she wasn't feeling anything I was lying down a lot. She figured that was going on. She didn't ask me she accused me which is the issue.

Then she changed it and said I couldn't take a joke and it was just banter. She feels she is walking on egg shells with me and doesn't know how to deal with me, and I should go away and come back to her on what she is and isnt allowed to say.

Anyway Later I said I would prefer she didn't accuse me of things and just asked me direct questions. But also I won't engage in future on false accusations so we don't get into an argument.
She kept trying to say it wasn't an accusation and denying what she said, I stayed firm and said lets agree to disagree, we have different opinions on what happened which is fine, lets just work on what to do in future.
She kept trying to insist it was a fact what happened and I was wrong and get me to agree. I kept saying I understand that's how you feel but I see it differently so lets leave it and work on what to do in the future.
At which she said she keeps biting her tongue around me and not saying things why can't I do the same.
I said that is exactly what I said I will do and not engage on these things so we don't argue.
And she said "Oh so we aren't going to communicate at all then"
It's so frustrating, how do I deal with this? She asks for me to bite my tongue and not react like she does. I agree (and had been suggesting that all along) and then she implies I am saying we arent going to talk at all?
100% crazy making. In my mind I am thinking I made the weekend super nice for her and she had text me how much she enjoyed it (of course would never thank me to my face), and this was some way of causing trouble for whatever reason.
How do I deal with this!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Pook075]

Looking at the conversation and taking it at face value, I think the true problem arose when you went downstairs and she said that, "You've been lying around a lot."

This was your opportunity to share how you felt in terms of being tired.  You worked all week, you planned a special weekend, and now you're feeling a little worn out.  That's relatable- we all feel that way at times.

Instead, the conversation started taking twists and turns, heading straight for the dysregulated banter of how the best answer was not to communicate at all, or keep everyone's feelings to themselves.  That's no good.

I know every BPD situation is different, but after that type of interaction my wife would usually apologize a few days later.  Or we'd start to have a conversation and we'd both take the higher road, choosing to put the past behind us.  Has that happened in your case yet? Or do you feel like it's too late to apologize for being tired and taking a little extra 'me-time' that evening? 

That may break the ice and allow conversations to normalize a little more.  Just a thought.

[CravingPeace]

Looking at the conversation and taking it at face value, I think the true problem arose when you went downstairs and she said that, "You've been lying around a lot."

This was your opportunity to share how you felt in terms of being tired.  You worked all week, you planned a special weekend, and now you're feeling a little worn out.  That's relatable- we all feel that way at times.

Thanks for your response but not really. I mean we hadn't spoken for an hour before as all were lying down resting. All were tired. Why was I singled out as being tired and lying down when she was too? I missed out I did ask her why do you think I am tired? And she said because you are stoned. I said I am not . I am tired as I took the baby and kids so you could have a night off, and he woke me up all night.

Instead, the conversation started taking twists and turns, heading straight for the dysregulated banter of how the best answer was not to communicate at all, or keep everyone's feelings to themselves.  That's no good.

I feel like saying if I am falsely accused of something not reacting is a fair boundary no? I said feel free to ask me questions, and I will answer. But if I am unfairly accused of something I am not going to engage other than provide a direct answer. Is that not a fair boundary? It's not about not communicating, it is about not reacting to unfair mud slinging? The kind of boundaries my therapist told me to put in place.

I know every BPD situation is different, but after that type of interaction my wife would usually apologize a few days later.  Or we'd start to have a conversation and we'd both take the higher road, choosing to put the past behind us.  Has that happened in your case yet? Or do you feel like it's too late to apologize for being tired and taking a little extra 'me-time' that evening? 

That is nice that your wife would do that. I feel like an apology just sometimes would be great to break the ice. But unfortunately my wife does not apologize. Well thats not exactly true. She apologized a day after raging at me, swearing at me , calling me offensive names a few months ago and storming off and giving me the silent treatment for 2 days. But she did it crying at the same time telling me I had a lot of work to do on myself, and we needed therapy and I needed individual therapy. That is the only time I can remember an apology as it took me back! I was so suprised. That was until I realized I was being blamed for the offensive language and abuse she she directed at me.

I am being very careful not to take the blame and apologize for things I have not done these days with therapist support. Being tired would not be something I should apologize for when she also was lying down and resting. I wasn't really taking me time anymore than she was. I don't expect her to apologize for that. I do of course apologize for things I get wrong as it happens. I am human.
I have spent a lot of time in my relationship apologizing for things I am not to blame for , for an easy life. Problem is I have enabled her by not placing boundaries and asking her to be responsible for her own things.

I guess I know the answer is that I need to use JADE and SET, and be careful not to react to accusations that arent true. But its hard working keeping that up at all times.

[Pook075]

I feel like saying if I am falsely accused of something not reacting is a fair boundary no? I said feel free to ask me questions, and I will answer. But if I am unfairly accused of something I am not going to engage other than provide a direct answer. Is that not a fair boundary? It's not about not communicating, it is about not reacting to unfair mud slinging? The kind of boundaries my therapist told me to put in place.

I wouldn't want to contradict your therapist because that person is much more familiar with the situation than I would be. 

My point wasn't about who was right/wrong though, it's about better communication and avoiding the bigger blowout arguments all together whenever possible.  Boundaries are a big part of that but at the same time, you can't avoid conversations entirely because of trouble communicating.

Left unchecked, breakdowns in communication will never solve a problem...especially when BPD is involved.  So it's fine to walk away when angry or being unfairly accused, but it's equally important to find a way to talk things out productively as well...even if it's a few hours later or the following day.  Make sense?

[CravingPeace]

Thanks yes that definately makes sense . Trying to resolve amicably as quickly as possible. I need to work super hard not to let it get circular though, as otherwise it flips to thing to thing.  Who is right/ who is wrong. Thats where I have had some success with JADE/SET. Although she does sometimes accuse me of using therapy against her! I try to be empathetic and explain I am not using anything against her, I just want to make sure we don't argue and both feel heard to benefit our relationship.

[kells76]

Hi CravingPeace;

Really glad we can be here for you on the boards. One of the best things this group has to offer is exactly this: you bring a "he said-she said" interaction, and we can look at it together and find new ways forward that you can try in the future.

The tools and skills for communicating with a pwBPD are often so unintuitive that it can take a lot of practice to have it feel "natural".

False accusations are a big one. I've felt that inner urge before, when I've heard that the pwBPD in my life (my H's kids' mom) has said something untrue about me, to somehow find a way to make her understand that I'm not that way, that that isn't me. We all want to set the record straight. In fact, it's even harder for me to hear or read what she says about my H, because she says those kinds of things to the kids, and every bone in my body wants to say "that is so untrue".

The double bind of a false accusation like that is that it is structured in such a way that your refutation "proves" the accusation correct. Sometimes the initial accusation has different content, but typically it leads to a more core accusation.

What I mean by that is: her first statement was "I guess you're pretty stoned, aren't you?" I mean -- wow. Big stuff. So untrue!

Likely underneath that was a very different feeling she was having. However, many pwBPD use maladaptive coping mechanisms to manage their feelings, and can have low-skill communication about those feelings. So, for example, maybe underneath it all she was feeling overwhelmed, which is a vulnerable feeling. Not saying she was or wasn't, just coming up with an example.

Due to the disorder, she may struggle with clear and functional communication about her feelings. So what does she come up with, to communicate "I feel overwhelmed"? Yup -- that got turned into "You must be stoned".

Some members feel stuck between two poor options: "I can either agree with her to make her stop, or if I defend myself, then it just turns into a huge argument and she still doesn't believe me".

Fortunately those aren't the only two options.

Although this article by Dr. Craig Childress (a psychologist familiar with BPD), called   Ju-jitsu   Parenting: Fighting Back from the Down Position is aimed at "targeted" parents (a parent being blamed and demonized by the other parent with BPD), it's incredibly relevant to your situation, because it addresses the question of: so am I just stuck between rolling over or starting an argument?

Read the whole thing, for sure, but my thought is that pages 3-4 (for foundation), 7-9 (for concrete examples), and 14-16 (for managing the emotional tone "vibes" you emit) may be most relevant.

This is a big excerpt from pages 3-4, but if you can't make it to the whole pdf for some reason, let's get these out here to work with:

The Double-Bind Trap

However, if you don’t defend yourself, then you’re admitting to the false allegations. If we “validate the child’s feelings” then we validate the false accusation that you are overly critical and insensitive, when, in truth, it is the child who is hostile-provoking.

But if you try to clarify your innocence, then you are seen as overly defensive, insensitive to the child, incapable of self-reflection, and as externalizing your own responsibility by criticizing your child, thereby validating by your very defense the allegations being made against you.

That’s the Trap: You’re damned if you do (i.e., if you accept the false accusation) and you’re damned if you don’t (i.e., if you defend yourself against the false narrative).

So what do you do?

4. Ju-Jitsu Communication

Metaphor: in the “sport” of Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) there are two principle fighting styles, 1) Strikers, who use punches and kicks from standing positions, and 2) Ju-jitsu fighters, who take the fighting to the mat in more of a wrestling style as they try to lock up their opponents in chokes, arm-locks, and leg-locks to obtain submission (a “tap-out”).

When a striker takes the fighting to the mat, it’s called “ground-and-pound.” The two fighters are on the ground, chest-to-chest, with the striker on the top raining down elbows and hammer fists on the head of the opponent. That’s what’s happening to you, you’re being pummeled by a ground-and-pound strategy where you can’t respond with an effective defense because you’re being held flat on your back.

However, a ju-jitsu fighter prefers to be on his back, because then he has both of his arms and legs free for “grappling” and grabbing, whereas the fighter on the top has to use both legs and one arm to support his body weight in the top position. The ju-jitsu fighter is trying to catch and grab an out of place arm or leg of the opponent to secure a submission hold. Ju-jitsu fighters are extremely dangerous when on their backs.

Standard communication conflict would be analogous to “strikers;” the other person strikes you with an allegation and you strike back with your defense. The problem is that the false allegations made about you by the child and ex- immediately place you on the defensive, you’re on your back getting pummeled by elbows and fists raining down on you, and any strike you try to make is counterpunched by the communication trap of parental alienation (damned if you do, damned if you don’t) so that you’re just a bloody and swollen mess.

Ju-Jitsu Communication:

The solution is to shift your “parenting communication fighting style” to ju-jitsu, where the opponent’s own force is first managed, then redirected, and ultimately turned against them so that they become trapped in a (metaphorical) arm-bar or leg-lock from which they cannot escape. The goal is not to counter-strike, but is instead to use a set of more sophisticated communication skills to counteract the advantages of your opponent, turning these seeming advantages into weaknesses.

Would be really interested to hear your thoughts about the article. Maybe we can work through a "redo" of that conversation here, using some of those ideas? What do you think?

[CravingPeace]

Hi Kells76,

Thank you so much. That is exactly how I felt, that analogy is excellent. This is exactly what I am looking for. How to redirect the negative energy back to defuse. As I am in a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation often and a bit stuck. I know if I just say no to the allegation and don't give it energy, she will then say I am being cold or unengaging and she will find other ways to get a reaction! If I defend she questioned why did I defend this allegation, but I don't defend against other ones when she has been mean (she gave an example). The she said maybe I had a specific issue around drugs, as I defended this one. Which I don't ! Its a lose:lose situation. I'd love an example of how I could have handled that conversation better!

Thank you

[kells76]

You know your W best, so you'll know if this is worth trying --

Sometimes using gentle humor can defuse the situation (see the section in the Childress article about "emotional tone").

The first thing I actually thought of as an alternative when she said "I guess you're pretty stoned, aren't you" is, what if you said (with a low-key vibe, like a 1 or 2 out of 10 intensity, and a chuckle -- that kind of feel)

"Even though I'm not, I sure wish I was, babe!"

"If I were, I'd be making brownies right now!"

"Yikes! If when I'm sober you think I'm stoned, I'd hate to think of how I would look if I were high!"

"Oh babe... no way... you know me better than that...  now that you mention it, I could go for some snacks, want any?"

Each of those has a kind of different feel, but what's similar for all of them is you're slipping in the fact that you're not, without saying "No I'm not". You are interacting with the "bait" she dropped in front of you, but not in a "you're the fish swallowing the hook and fighting getting reeled in" kind of way.

It gives her engagement -- which may fundamentally be part of what she wants, but doesn't have a higher-skill way of asking for -- without agreeing with her premise. And, especially in that last example, anything to move the conversation and focus past the conflict and on to neutral/positive time together is a plus. That last one acknowledges the "bait" but uses it to move to more constructive interaction (getting food together).

Again, you know her best, so it'll be interesting to hear how you think she might respond.

[CravingPeace]

Thank you that last one is perfect!!! :-) Who doesn't want snacks!

[kells76]

Glad to hear that there are some options that sound workable for you 

And it goes back to what Pook075 mentioned:

it's about better communication and avoiding the bigger blowout arguments all together whenever possible.  Boundaries are a big part of that but at the same time, you can't avoid conversations entirely because of trouble communicating.

It's about how we can use tools, skills, and approaches that are 100% under our control, to "stop the bleeding" by minimizing unnecessary and/or wounding conflicts, so we can work with our loved one's limitations to care about their core needs (that they aren't expressing in a skilled way).

While maintaining integrity and personal boundaries -- not easy stuff, though worth it