Separating and kids

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

For those of you who couldn’t make it work marrying someone with BPD. What has your experience been with co parenting kids with a person who can’t commit to anything?

Things I’m not sure about are missing practices, calling me non stop to “help” which of course I’m happy with to see the kids but there is an element of chaos to it.  I have zero faith my wife can handle two kids on her own, running a house and actually getting a job for a change.  I’m looking forward to the peace of mind that comes without the daily drama but all the other stuff surrounding the kids is my concern.

Would appreciate any input on that. Thank you

[Husband2014]

For those of you who couldn’t make it work marrying someone with BPD. What has your experience been with co parenting kids with a person who can’t commit to anything?

Things I’m not sure about are missing practices, calling me non stop to “help” which of course I’m happy with to see the kids but there is an element of chaos to it.  I have zero faith my wife can handle two kids on her own, running a house and actually getting a job for a change.  I’m looking forward to the peace of mind that comes without the daily drama but all the other stuff surrounding the kids is my concern.

Would appreciate any input on that. Thank you

[kells76]

Hi Husband2014;

Am I doing the math correctly that your kids are about 5 & 1 right now?

I won't say it's been easy. My H and his kids' mom have been divorced for over a decade. She tends to use emotional manipulation on the kids, who don't see it (though SD17 is a little more aware now). Her MO at first was micromanaging/controlling the schedule to squeeze him out. Then it was -- after H finally got a better, more detailed PP on file -- pretending that the PP didn't really matter. Now that the kids are older and have been set up to believe that the PP doesn't matter, she has almost totally detached from parenting, as far as I can tell. I wish she'd started off by detaching from parenting  

Our situation is unique in that she quickly remarried to a person with many NPD type traits. That dynamic has made coparenting effectively impossible (although it was a little better when the kids had a counselor involved who also worked with Mom).

We completely parallel parent (i.e., we do not try to coordinate anything with Mom or get her agreement or ask if we could schedule something on her time "just once"). It is a little easier to do because the kids are older (17.5 & 15.5) than yours.

My thoughts for your situation are that if I were in your shoes, my starting assumption would be that she will never do what she "should" do or what she "ought to be" doing. I would assume that on her end, she will never agree, cooperate, be decisive, be responsible, tell you anything ahead of time, or not push boundaries. I would steer clear of hanging on to beliefs or desires about "well, she should make less chaotic decisions". It kind of sounds like you're there.

Weirdly, that can make things more workable, because it's actually a concrete starting position for your decision making -- it gives you something you know for sure, which is that she will be unpredictable. And you can create a parenting approach based on that.

For example, SD15 used to have a volunteer thing, and we would only schedule it on weekends she was with us. However, there were other opportunities, often on Mom's time. I never knew if Mom would agree or not, but I knew that it was totally unpredictable, and I knew that asking "is it okay with you" when I really wanted agreement -- or bringing up "can I take SD15 to her thing, she really wants to go" -- would hit on Mom's "sore spot" (she wants to be the expert and be the only one who really understands the kids) and I'd probably get a reply of "well she told me she doesn't want to go with you". Instead -- and maybe this is the hardest part -- I would accept ahead of time that as much as I wanted SD15 to be able to do that thing, I couldn't control it, and I had to be okay ahead of time with either outcome. I kind of think that stance came through in my texts. I would phrase the texts as "Does it work for your schedule for SD15 to do XYZ from 4-5 on Tuesday? If I don't hear back from you by 4pm Monday, I'll assume we're good to go and will pick her up at 3:30 Tuesday. Thanks, kells76"

It may be critical to find ways to move forward with your life and plans without waiting on her to agree or cooperate. Having a really detailed parenting plan can help, as can BIFF communication, and phrasing requests so that no response equals a response.

The other, bigger picture thing we've learned is that your top consideration, more than parenting plans, custody, "how things should be", legal considerations, or working with the other parent, is your relationship with your children.

We are in a position where we cannot rely on a united front between H and Mom. So, for example, if there is a behavioral issue, we do not have the safety net of "well, Mom and I agree you can't do XYZ", because Mom will either undermine H in order to be favored, or Mom will have checked out. The kids do not recognize the parenting plan as a legal document (due to Mom and Stepdad's influence) and so we can't point at the PP and say "hey, we have to follow this, a judge said so". For better or for worse, our presence in the kids' lives is completely dependent on us maintaining a relationship with them, and that has been difficult as there are no other voices in their lives supporting that relationship. It is a lot of pressure but is also clarifying -- no matter what parenting schedule or custody agreement or legal requirements or coparent cooperation you do or don't have, at the end of the day, it boils down to -- how do you relate to your kids. And that's something within your control.

Anyway, lots of thoughts there. Back to your specific situation: yes, as chaotic as it is, take the extra time every single time. I wouldn't recommend going down the road of trying to convince her to parent, or to be responsible, or "Tuesday is your day to go watch at practice, so you need to go". Like water finding its own level, she too will find a level of parenting that feels comfortable to her. See every time that she declines to participate with the kids not as something you have to convince her to do, but as an opportunity for you to be that much more involved.

Again, from the parallel parenting world -- find ways to set up your life and your support team so that every time she's chaotic, unpredictable, or abdicates parenting responsibility, you have a structure set up to take the kids. This may mean finding a couple of sitters that can be "on call", making friends with your kid's school friends' families, having school carpools on standby, seeing if your parents can help, etc. It sucks to be in a situation where you have to weave your own safety net but here we are.

...

Do you think she is invested in "looking like" a certain kind of mom, but not doing the legwork behind the scenes? If so, that's important info to have.

[Husband2014]

Thank you, Kells.  This is very helpful. Kids are 6 and 2
So pretty close.

I live in Florida so thankfully the law dictates 50/50 as a starting point which is fantastic. Absolutely I will take every chance to get the kids off her hands. I do that today almost 70% of the time unless I’m working or just need a break.  So I have no intention to “teach her to parent” I kinda want to encourage her to actually keep the sending the kids over kinda thing. It’s more of the concern of she doesn’t go to practice and doesn’t ask me and kids miss it.

I already reached out to a lawyer and will put a very tight parenting plan and intend to enforce it by all means necessary down to the days of the week where kids need to have an activity to the best of my ability.

Fortunately I have family around which will help with the “ad Hoc” stuff and the surprised of “I need help now and if you don’t you hate your kids” crap.

[kells76]

Gotcha, that makes sense. Sounds like you're documenting/tracking how often you take the kids at her request. For that 30% of the time when you're working or need a break, I wonder if you could still tell her "sure, I can manage the kids for you then" and then implement one of your backup plans. It can be better for the kids to be with chill, safe extended family/friends/care vs with Mom if Mom is overwhelmed -- even if the kids aren't with you directly. This is normal -- it's not like the kids must only be with you during your parenting time; otherwise, they couldn't go to school.

The activity stuff is tricky. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about zero loophole parenting plans. Is this the core issue beneath that:

It’s more of the concern of she doesn’t go to practice and doesn’t ask me and kids miss it.

I already reached out to a lawyer and will put a very tight parenting plan and intend to enforce it by all means necessary down to the days of the week where kids need to have an activity to the best of my ability.

So you would like to somehow enforce that if the kids are signed up for XYZ, and it's during Mom's time, then Mom must either take them or delegate taking them to someone else -- but Mom "not feeling like it" or "forgetting" or "not wanting to" aren't acceptable reasons for the kids to miss?

Is that the core issue?

The reason I ask is that a PP developed for a 6 year old in soccer may not fit a 15 year old in jazz band. My thinking would be -- how to get the PP to address the core issue, not the "symptoms" and also how to have the PP not be so rigid that you're stuck keeping your child doing soccer every Monday whether you want to or not when s/he's 15.

[Husband2014]

It’s kinda the core issue but it’s more she’s in the kids ears about how much sports make them tired and kinda deceitfully making them hate it so I want to force the issue a bit and make sure their is something on paper that says they have to do something vs sit at home and listen to her fight kinda thing

[kells76]

OK, I see what you mean.

Even though right now the way the issue is showing up is her "convincing" your 6YO "aren't you a little tired today? Isn't soccer really tiring? Rest is better for you, don't you think?", what's behind that is her parenting dynamic. It isn't really about the activities. (Also, are you hearing this from your 6YO, from the coach, from other teammates...?)

Right now it's about soccer (or whatever, we can use soccer as a generic example), but a bigger concern would be if/when she transfers that parenting dynamic (of "convincing" a child to "think for him/herself" but really to do what Mom wants) to parenting time or parent relationships: "You feel sad when you leave Dad's house, right? If you didn't go to Dad's, then you wouldn't feel sad. You don't want to feel sad, do you?"

Focusing on the sports/activities/day of the week aspect might be like playing whack-a-mole. You get airtight PP language about "Mom must take the kids or must let Dad know 2 hours in advance if she cannot/won't", but she can just pivot that parenting dynamic to another area of life.

Sounds like you don't yet have a final custody agreement/PP in place, that it's still in the works? That may be good for where you're at -- you're already getting the kids on Mom's time (and documenting that), you are building your child care safety net, and you have a growing awareness that she will use emotional manipulation with the kids.

My gut feeling is that instead of chasing the activity schedule stuff, a better "payoff" will be you getting your hands on decision-making levers for mental health, medical, education, etc.

Looks like in Florida, the presumption is shared legal custody (shared parental responsibility)?

Are you required to attempt mediation before moving forward?

I'm wondering if you can propose a "more than you actually want" plan and then negotiate down from there, in order to get "tiebreaker" on those core legal decision areas. Because it seems likely that she will continue to manipulate the kids, and so you want to be able to get them into counseling/therapy without deadlocking with her or having her able to sabotage that process. That's the bigger "win" in terms of helping your kids process what Mom is doing and cope with it instead of succumbing to it. They're young right now so as sad as it is, it makes sense that your 6YO is going with what Mom is pressuring. To a 6YO, parents are larger than life, and they have no concept of not doing what makes Mom happy. They may need support from a neutral 3rd party to make it through, and typically pwBPD can be averse to an "outsider" seeing family dynamics. Not having to wait for her agreement or cooperation to get the kids into counseling may be a lifesaver.

How do you think your L would respond if you said "OK, the activity thing drives me crazy, but I think it's a symptom of a larger dynamic -- that she may be more focused on keeping the kids around her for her emotional needs, than allowing them do developmentally appropriate peer activities. I'm concerned that even if we nail down language around extracurriculars, she may pivot her focus to other areas, like obstructing my time with the kids. My kids need me in their lives and I need to know how you've dealt with these situations in the past and how we can be extremely proactive now to avoid court time in the future" (or something to educate your L about your goals and to learn about what strategy your L would use to help you achieve your goals).

...

The activity stuff is difficult and frustrating, especially when you know the other parent is using manipulation on a child.

Focusing on just the activity schedule may be playing by her rules. Reset the parameters -- understand that there is something bigger going on. Decline to enter into her framing of the conflict (she'll want to frame it as "I'm the mom, I'm the one who truly listens to our child, and if our child says he is too tired for soccer, I am the one who respects that -- you just pressure him too much, you're insensitive, just like you were with me"). When she can bait you into accepting the conflict framing on her terms, then that draws you into a battle over "who takes whom to practice". Step back and know that this is her dynamic and you can move past that distraction to focus on the bigger picture -- making sure your children have an emotionally safe place to build resilience and skills to develop appropriately. Time with you is key, and you're working on that. Neutral third party mental health is also a huge part of that, and with a good L you may be able to achieve that.

Negotiation-wise, what do you think is your W's "currency"? That is -- if the two of you were in mediation, what would she want to get to feel like "she won" and "you lost"? Knowing that can help you bargain to get what really matters in a parenting responsibility agreement. Some moms are motivated by looking like "pinterest mom of the year" -- they want the appearance of being "an amazing mom" but would give up more substance to gain that appearance to others. Other moms want "more" -- if they feel like "they got more holidays" than you, they may be willing to trade decision making for Christmas every year, for example.

...

Lots of food for thought -- what's your take?

[Husband2014]

So I’ll start with her currency. I feel it’s of of two things If not both.

First is revenge. She would absolutely love to see me hurt before even helping herself. Can’t tell you how many times I heard I hope you die or lose your job, etc… she believes I don’t have her back “shocker” and wants revenge.

Second is a really weird one “what does every body think of me”. Can’t also tell you how many times I got the “someone says so and so about me”

The dynamic is still not at 100% separation. We are living in the same house and I learned boundaries so I’m paying for it big time with silence treatment for weeks.. I got an attorney to start planning just in case. However something super strange happened a month ago. She reached out to a family therapist and wanted to “talk amicably about separation”. Of course the first session was a total train wreck and she said I’m a liar, etc… so we’ll see how long that continues. I made a bold move and emailed the therapist before our third session confidentially and showed her documentation with another doctor we saw (long story) that she has BPD and I think she bought it as she answered back saying she appreciates this information.  So we’ll see how this goes but the 2
Sessions we went towere a total **** show. Her truth is the truth. Having said that I told her I’m not talking divorce and if she wants out she will have to do it. Nothing of course, so far. I’m obviously preparing for anything.

We have a third session scheduled on the 29th so we’ll see but I have no idea what to expect. We did therapy before when we lived in Texas and I’m trying to convince her to go spend a week in Houston with our old therapist so she can officially diagnose her but that’s a real tough ask too. 

Regarding the soccer thing and manipulation she does it right in front of me and exactly how you framed it “oh you put pressure he’s afraid of you and tired” like I said every chance she has
To take a dig at me and my family it’s a straight shot. One of the key areas of conflict is she thinks my sister hates her and wants me to cut her off and doesn’t want me or the kids talking to her. I complied for a long time till I learned about all this and started drawing boundaries and the whole ire of BPD has been coming down on me since then in every facet of life.

So that’s a bit more detail on my garbage of a life with this miserable human. 

[Husband2014]

Also another “currency” is sex. Obviously that has been non existent however if I ramp up our sex life I know it will improve things tremendously however I physically can’t even get myself to think about it hurts. It’s like an automatic with her but pushing myself to do it is just painful.

[Husband2014]

I will also add that when we did therapy in Texas neither me or the therapist knew she has BPD.  It’s only when we moved to Florida that things got so bad that I actually flew our therapist from Texas to spend a weekend with us and that’s when she started suspecting BPD. She flew over a second time and I booked a physiologist this time and I was his patient and by shear miracle I convinced her to come with me and therapist was also present. So he met with me alone, her alone, therapist alone and all of us combined. Then he asked her to leave and that’s when he gave me “stop walking on egg shells” and “loving someone with BPD” and that’s when the light bulbs came on for me. That was exactly 2 years ago. Before that I fell for every single trap and had no boundaries and she ate me alive.

I asked that doctor to write me a “a note” of what he saw in case I ever need it in court so I showed that to our current family therapist we just started seeing.

So hope all that sheds more light into the situation.