How to get off the roller coaster -- tips on communication

[Awakein40s]

Hello all!  Wondering if you have any suggestions on how to communicate with my father who has uBPD and my mother who is his enabler.  They move cities and/or homes on average every 2-3 years (throughout my childhood and now my adulthood as well).  A few years ago they moved down the street from where I live now.  That's when I figured out how ill my dad is.  I was mostly ignored as a child so didn't have conflicts with them often and as a defense mechanism didn't dissect the ways they treated my siblings.  Which is why I didn't recognize the patterns until I saw them treating my children this way (physical discipline, bullying, shaming etc).  Any time I would draw boundaries about this treatment and also small things like please knock on the door before you come over, they would give me what I call a verbal spanking -- belittling, yelling, anger etc.  I responded eventually by mostly withdrawing. They responded to this by moving away.  In a fiery flame of relationship destruction where they called me cold and "horrible" etc. 

After a year and a half things are calmer.  Space and time has allowed me to heal.  I am glad they are not so close and our interactions are measured and time limited.  Here's the kicker.  Over the holidays my father shared with my husband that they are now thinking of moving back to my city.      The city they are currently in "isn't what they thought it would be."  This is how it always works with them.  They are now fantasizing falsely about life close to my family.  The thought of their returning leaves me sick to my stomach.  I need to find a way to tell them that I do not want this.  I know that I can't control whether they return, and if they do, I will have to find ways to create stronger boundaries than the last time.  But I truly deeply pray that they don't come back.  I am scared to tell them this because of the way they will respond -- more verbal spankings and also will probably cancel plans they have set up for my children.

Maybe no one here has a solution but even just hearing that you understand how I am feeling helps!

Thanks all.  So glad the holidays are over.

[Methuen]

I truly understand, because I’m living it. 

My uBPD 87 yo widowed and waif mom lives in my small community, still in her own home.

I can literally feel certain sensations, and the deep sense of foreboding…

I don’t know what to say that can help solve anything.  They are going to do what they are going to do.

Just that I get it.

Poease don’t fake a welcome to appear kind, or because you are afraid not to fake a welcome.  Find ways to be true and honest to your own values. 

[10ThousandThings]

Hi Awakein40s - I hear you and i'm sorry for your situation. It sounds you might be feeling helpless and powerless in some ways.

It must not be very comfortable at all thinking about the possibility of them coming back. How can you take more control right now rather than ruminate about something you don't perceive yourself to be able to control? What would happen if you told them you don't want them to move in to your area? It might be an opportunity to set rules at his early stage rather than try to fight for them when they're on your doorstep.

I'm am sure prevention would be better than cure.

[Notwendy]

I have at times, told my parents I didn't want them to move near me. As you can imagine, this felt awful to do and caused a huge blow up from them.

Originally, I did plan to ask them to move closer to me as they got older but staying with them to help when my father was ill- BPD mother was so abusive it was intollerable.

At the time, BPD mother was also trying to enlist my children as emotional caregivers.  She mentioned several times that she wanted to be closer to me so she could "see the grandkids" and closer to where they wanted to attend college.

I was terrified. I recall my own teen and college years. I would come home on school breaks and take on my role as her emotional caretaker and do things for her. During one summer break- she showed up unexpectedly at my summer job in one of her dissociated rages, screaming at me for something she was upset about that I had nothing to do with, but somehow she wanted me to stop my work and fix it. I recall feeling shocked and terrified at my mother just showing up out of the blue- at my job- in a screaming rage. I was 19.

She then decided that to "save the marriage" we all had to take an unplanned family vacation and forced me to quit my summer job and go with them. I loved that job and it paid well for a college kid- but I didn't have much choice as they wouldn't let me stay back by myself. If this is what she did with me when I was 19- she could also do it with my kids. They'd not be able to get through school with her showing up out of the blue, whenever, screaming at them to do things for her. There was no way I could agree to having my kids in this situation.

My parents were insulted and enraged at me. They didn't connect my fears for my children to what I experienced when I was in college. They just saw me as a horrible daughter.

Dad has passed and BPD mother has brought up moving near me several times. Her reasons being that she "wants to see her grandkids". I have told her I didn't want that. I have scheduled sessions with a counselor specifically for support at these times because it's emotionally stressful. I have even considered it- thinking about doing this and when I do, I panic over the idea.

Her reaction to my saying I don't want her to move near me is to rage and say mean things to me.

I can see her point. There are grandparents who are estranged from their grandchildren for no fault of their own and it's a truly awful thing. I didn't want to do that. We visited frequently when the kids were younger, always supervised. As teens though, she began to see them as useful to her and as emotional caretakers. This isn't their role. They deserve to be teen agers, not parentified caretakers.  I am sure it was hurtful to them. I didn't want to be hurtful- but the only way I could not be hurtful would be to agree to something that I didn't think was in the best interest of my children.

She is not restricted from my kids. They are adults now. She has their cell phone numbers. It's up to them to decide to have a relationship with her or not. They have their own boundaries with her.

At some level, BPD mother remains angry at me for not moving her near me. Even my H says that if she did move near me, I'd be an emotional wreck. Without distance, she'd be calling me frequently, expecting me to do things for her, raging at me whenever. I don't mind helping- I would want to be helpful to an elderly parent- even a difficult one, but this is different. Even though I am an adult, and she's an elderly person, when I am around her, I feel terror and panic. With distance, it feels safer as I can have some control of when I visit.

Unfortunately, it seems the only way we can protect ourselves, or our families is to take on the role of the "bad person" to them, something we often second guess and blame ourselves for.

[SweetSass]

My elderly authoritarian Bpd parents use their  “love” to their grandchildren as a tactic to demand that I cater to their wants.

IMO it is not my job to facilitate the relationship between grandparent and grandchild. 

Especially because my parents seem to think that they can demand submissiveness from me in the name of “respect,” and thereby circumvent me and still have access to my children.

Their argument is they claim to love their grandkids so I am morally obligated to have them live with me or I must purchase them a condo in my city!!!!!  Ha!!!!!

My antisocial, entitled, broke father sneered at me and said, “I love my grandchildren more than my daughter.” 

Ohhhhhh was I suppose to fall apart that daddy tried to create some sort of sick rivalry between my kids and myself to compete for his affections?

Sure Daddy, let me buy you the condo of your dreams.  Do you love me more now Daddy?  Do you? 

Pfffffft.  Their arrogance and entitlement plus their penchant for orchestrating chaos means I am gonna pass in facilitating their move to my city. 

[TelHill]

Hello,

I wouldn't be pleased with this either! My pwBPD is my elderly mother.

I don't know if this is true of your father but my mother would be h3ll-bent on moving near me 1000% if I tried to talk her out of it.  She's a 90 year old disordered rebel. Maybe don't say anything and hope it'll blow over?

[Notwendy]

Hello,

I wouldn't be pleased with this either! My pwBPD is my elderly mother.

I don't know if this is true of your father but my mother would be h3ll-bent on moving near me 1000% if I tried to talk her out of it.  She's a 90 year old disordered rebel. Maybe don't say anything and hope it'll blow over?

That was actually suggested to me. After the family issue over it, another family member mentioned to me that "it probably wouldn't happen anyway" and I wonder if I had just played into the drama by reacting. But also I didn't want to say I would agree to it. 

I realized that- if someone wants to move, they can move. We can't stop them from doing so. One thing I realized is that- I can have contact with my mother because she is at a distance. If she were to be closer, I'd have to have more boundaries. I don't live close enough to be her daily caregiver. I still do things for her at a distance and when I visit. But without the boundary of distance, her expectations would be constant.

It is very difficult to say no to her. She responds by acting very hurt or she goes into a rage and is verbally abusive. I don't want to be hurtful, but unless someone is completely compliant- doesn't say anything back to her, this is how she reacts.

[Mommydoc]

I agree with Telehill.

I don't know if this is true of your father but my mother would be h3ll-bent on moving near me 1000% if I tried to talk her out of it.  She's a 90 year old disordered rebel. Maybe don't say anything and hope it'll blow over?

My sister pretty much doubles down the opposite way of anything I say I want or need. So I avoid sharing any thoughts, preferences or needs. I don’t give her any details of my life, for example I didn’t tell her I was retiring or had retired or that I got a new puppy or when I am traveling or where. She figures some of it out, but I feel like anything personal gets used as ammunition at some time in the future. The good news is many people with BPD are all words and no action, and don’t follow through. (Not always true unfortunately), so there is a chance they are just seeking validation from you about how great it would be to have them move closer. I wouldn’t engage at all. I would go complete grey rock if and when it comes up. Any indication you don’t want this and they may double down.  Awakein40s and NotWendy, I hope it just doesn’t happen, as your fears and anxieties are very legitimate. On this forum we have all witnessed repeatedly that you can not control a pwBPDs actions or behavior, only our own. Keep us updated and sending hopeful thoughts that this is just more hot air or an attempt to seek validation.

[Awakein40s]

Thank you all for your input.  It was very helpful to read about similar stories and situations.  I feel not alone.  I think not saying anything and grey rocking both protects me now and in the future.  Also I am beginning to plan the kinds of boundaries I will enact should they move back.  One thing I am reminding myself is certain -- they will move again when they don't get from me what they want.  So it may be terrible but at least it will be temporarily terrible.

[Pook075]

Thank you all for your input.  It was very helpful to read about similar stories and situations.  I feel not alone.  I think not saying anything and grey rocking both protects me now and in the future.  Also I am beginning to plan the kinds of boundaries I will enact should they move back.  One thing I am reminding myself is certain -- they will move again when they don't get from me what they want.  So it may be terrible but at least it will be temporarily terrible.

One thing to keep in mind is that establishing boundaries is sort of an artform in itself that has to be done when conversation is neutral. For example, if my BPD ex-wife or BPD daughter were screaming at me and I say, "You're not allowed to talk to me that way!"...what do you think would happen? 

LOL, it wouldn't be good and I'd better duck.

What you don't want to do is tell your parents, "I don't want you here."  That's invalidating and can't lead to anything good, even in the best of circumstances.  So you need to change that narrative slowly, tactfully over time.

You also want to avoid statements that contain a "but".  "I'd love to have you over for dinner next week, but I'd prefer if you...."  Again, you're trying to validate your feelings, but all they hear is blame.

Remember, your parents are lousy at realizing when they cross boundaries.  My daughter is horrific at it, she'll walk in the room and start talking over anyone else to share whatever is on her mind.  It drives me ballistic!  But I've learned to let that one go and continue other conversations at a different time.  Or if it's important, then I say that..."That sounds exciting, but could you give us five minutes?  We have to talk this out real quick."  Previously I'd point out how rude and insensitive she was, which only led to bad outcomes.

It's not fair that the burden is on us to always be on out best behavior and think through tough interactions, but that's the cards we've been dealt in life.  Good luck!

[Notwendy]

What you don't want to do is tell your parents, "I don't want you here." 

On the other hand, BPD mother kept pushing this one until I actually had to be blunt and say it.

It went as you'd expect it 

This was a tough one because people assume she'd move near me so I could take care of her. I actually considered it. I wanted to help my parents, and felt it was an important thing to do.

Until I tried just that when helping with my father, and she was so abusive, I realized I needed to have distance from her.

Even my husband has said he doesn't want my mother near me. He's seen how she treats me.  She has absolutely no concern for my own well being.

We had a care meeting with family about her long term care plans and I knew she'd bring up the "want to live near NW" idea. I knew I had to say something or they'd assume I agree. I scheduled a session with a therapist to role play saying it and keeping my composure when she reacts.

On one hand, I understand how saying this feels hurtful to her. I don't want to hurt her. But she has no brakes on whether or not she hurts me. She also disregards boundaries. A softer statement, hints, don't matter to her- she will push and push until there's no other choice but to say no. Then, she's feeling hurt and upset at me for saying it.

[Pook075]

On the other hand, BPD mother kept pushing this one until I actually had to be blunt and say it.

It went as you'd expect it 

This was a tough one because people assume she'd move near me so I could take care of her. I actually considered it. I wanted to help my parents, and felt it was an important thing to do.

Until I tried just that when helping with my father, and she was so abusive, I realized I needed to have distance from her.

Even my husband has said he doesn't want my mother near me. He's seen how she treats me.  She has absolutely no concern for my own well being.

We had a care meeting with family about her long term care plans and I knew she'd bring up the "want to live near NW" idea. I knew I had to say something or they'd assume I agree. I scheduled a session with a therapist to role play saying it and keeping my composure when she reacts.

On one hand, I understand how saying this feels hurtful to her. I don't want to hurt her. But she has no brakes on whether or not she hurts me. She also disregards boundaries. A softer statement, hints, don't matter to her- she will push and push until there's no other choice but to say no. Then, she's feeling hurt and upset at me for saying it.

Yeah, it can be impossible at times and I've certainly had those "I don't want you here" moments as well.  In my experience, it's been better to say, "I would like to work on strengthening our relationship before having you move back home."

Why?  Because it's not that we don't want to be around the BPD's in our lives...we just don't want them treating us like dirt and walking all over us.  If the boundary has to be, "never talk to me again" or "you can't live in this area" then so be it, but I think that's unfortunate and there's always going to be a better option.

My go-to line with my BPD daughter has evolved into something like, "Look, I love you and I want you in my life.  We have to let the past go though for that to happen, we can't live in the past and recycle the same old arguments."  She usually agrees and we somewhat start fresh.

[livednlearned]

After a year and a half things are calmer.  Space and time has allowed me to heal.  I am glad they are not so close and our interactions are measured and time limited.

I moved 3000 miles away to a different country 

I totally understand how distance can help us manage these relationships.

You mention that your interactions are measured and time-limited. How often do you communicate and for how long? It must be working so well that they are sort of splitting you/your town back to white, in a way. Do you find yourself setting boundaries with them by phone or text?

I'm just wondering if there is a way to use boundaries to remind them that there will be boundaries when/if they move back.

I don't respond to my family right away by text, and I don't pick up when they call at dinner or other times when I know they won't have any consideration for what I might be doing. My mother calls in the middle of dinner and if I pick up and tell her that I'm busy, her feelings get hurt, she runs to my father, then he texts to say I was rude to her, and then we're in a cycle. So now I just don't pick up.

But maybe, if you were me, you might choose to verbalize the boundaries, to remind them you're a person who has them. I know it's hard if you're raised to be a people pleaser to be intentionally candid with family members. I still struggle to do this but practice is helping me get better. I had to start with small stuff like ending conversations, or starting them with a reminder that I had x minutes to talk. Something even as small as that really sets them on edge but it's now part of our relationship. In my family, it's my sibling who has BPD and my parents are enablers, although there are some very strong covert narcissistic traits. If there is such a thing as a sheltered affluent waif narcissist, that would be my mother. It's all about her and she is constantly feeling victimized and injured. Her aggression is entirely covert so she's less obvious but in many ways more relentless.

It's good to keep troubleshooting and brainstorming with people. Sometimes you have to get into the specifics, right down to how to phrase something.

How did your H respond when they said they were thinking of moving to your city?

[Notwendy]

 the BPD's in our lives...we just don't want them treating us like dirt and walking all over us.  If the boundary has to be, "never talk to me again" or "you can't live in this area" then so be it, but I think that's unfortunate and there's always going to be a better option.

BPD is on a spectrum and for some of us with a BPD parent- we are dealing with abusive and addictive behaviors.

I think that with an abusive BPD parent- to want distance comes after decades of trying every option we can. We can forget and forgive but even with trying, when the abusive behavior continues, we are dealing in the present, not the past. If, at any time, my BPD mother showed some signs of responding to boundaries or decreasing her abusive behavior- I'd have been all in. I think I can speak for many people here that distance is a last resort. Although I did forgive and let go of BPD mother's past behavior, seeing BPD mother repeat it with my own children also is a reason for the distance- to also protect them.

I understand why she behaves like she does. She is projecting her own disturbed feelings and this is how she perceives things. We, as a family, have tried all we know to do. She has had access to mental health treatment, psychiatry, and seen multiple medical providers without any success. She is at the severe end of the BPD spectrum. While I don't blame her for her behavior- she can't change it for the better with behavioral or relationship intervention. Her way of coping with her own emotional distress is to be emotionally and verbally abusive to others around her.

At some point after searching, trying, doing everything we possibly can with the belief of "we can do better" we also consider -when can we say "we have tried all we can" because when we aren't successful, people assume we haven't tried hard enough and so we try more.  "If only I was "good enough" BPD mother would behave differently with me. At some point, we need to be able to believe our efforts were "good enough" even if they didn't lead to the results we wish for.

[TelHill]

You mention that your interactions are measured and time-limited. How often do you communicate and for how long? It must be working so well that they are sort of splitting you/your town back to white, in a way. Do you find yourself setting boundaries with them by phone or text?

I'm just wondering if there is a way to use boundaries to remind them that there will be boundaries when/if they move back.

Hi livednlearn,

The boundary is clear and time-driven for me. It's an hour a few times a month. My dBPD mom paints me neutral and my dad and sibling black. Longer than that, we're all no good and useless.  I only get the break due to not being around constantly.

When I was under eighteen and living at home, she had her quiet moments when occupied with household chores or when I was studying. Even then, I had to study where she was. She would harangue me if I studied in my bedroom alone to me with her. I left my bedroom because she was overwhelming me with her abuse- aggressive words.

I think the degree of an abusive episode (if you can measure such a thing! I'd say 8 out of 10) is the thing that's never changed with her. It's never a 1 or 2. It can appear like a 1 or 2 with love bombing, but it'll go up to 8 when she succeeds in manipulating me when she gets what she wants.

It's like being a personal human punching bag for my mom. The constant symptom is her hitting it as much as she can. She feels better.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there's low expectations of a neutral interaction with her. Changing the boundaries to teach her to not abuse me has never happened. I have tried very, very hard. I'm hoping it'll happen for me someday but I don't think it will after all this time. It may not be possible for some of our loved ones.
 

BPD is on a spectrum and for some of us with a BPD parent- we are dealing with abusive and addictive behaviors.

I think that with an abusive BPD parent- to want distance comes after decades of trying every option we can. We can forget and forgive but even with trying, when the abusive behavior continues, we are dealing in the present, not the past. If, at any time, my BPD mother showed some signs of responding to boundaries or decreasing her abusive behavior- I'd have been all in. I think I can speak for many people here that distance is a last resort. Although I did forgive and let go of BPD mother's past behavior, seeing BPD mother repeat it with my own children also is a reason for the distance- to also protect them.

I understand why she behaves like she does. She is projecting her own disturbed feelings and this is how she perceives things. We, as a family, have tried all we know to do. She has had access to mental health treatment, psychiatry, and seen multiple medical providers without any success. She is at the severe end of the BPD spectrum. While I don't blame her for her behavior- she can't change it for the better with behavioral or relationship intervention. Her way of coping with her own emotional distress is to be emotionally and verbally abusive to others around her.

At some point after searching, trying, doing everything we possibly can with the belief of "we can do better" we also consider -when can we say "we have tried all we can" because when we aren't successful, people assume we haven't tried hard enough and so we try more.  "If only I was "good enough" BPD mother would behave differently with me. At some point, we need to be able to believe our efforts were "good enough" even if they didn't lead to the results we wish for.

I relate to the above, NW. I wonder that's why I have such a hard time finding therapists to help me. I feel the blame after a while from them. I'm exaggerating her behavior, surely your father was a supportive, normal dad, BPD goes away after the age of 65, why are you still stuck in the past, why are you not progressing, please have some compassion for your mother, how do I know you (me) went to the school you did/have had the career you've had with the abusive episodes you're telling me about.   (Many of us have done well, so not sure how that's impossible.)

I feel like a scapegoat again in therapy which is definitely not helpful.

[Notwendy]

Hi livednlearn,

The boundary is clear and time-driven for me. It's an hour a few times a month. My dBPD mom paints me neutral and my dad and sibling black. Longer than that, we're all no good and useless.  I only get the break due to not being around constantly.

When I was under eighteen and living at home, she had her quiet moments when occupied with household chores or when I was studying. Even then, I had to study where she was. She would harangue me if I studied in my bedroom alone to me with her. I left my bedroom because she was overwhelming me with her abuse- aggressive words.

I think the degree of an abusive episode (if you can measure such a thing! I'd say 8 out of 10) is the thing that's never changed with her. It's never a 1 or 2. It can appear like a 1 or 2 with love bombing, but it'll go up to 8 when she succeeds in manipulating me when she gets what she wants.

It's like being a personal human punching bag for my mom. The constant symptom is her hitting it as much as she can. She feels better.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there's low expectations of a neutral interaction with her. Changing the boundaries to teach her to not abuse me has never happened. I have tried very, very hard. I'm hoping it'll happen for me someday but I don't think it will after all this time. It may not be possible for some of our loved ones.
 
I relate to the above, NW. I wonder that's why I have such a hard time finding therapists to help me. I feel the blame after a while from them. I'm exaggerating her behavior, surely your father was a supportive, normal dad, BPD goes away after the age of 65, why are you still stuck in the past, why are you not progressing, please have some compassion for your mother, how do I know you (me) went to the school you did/have had the career you've had with the abusive episodes you're telling me about.   (Many of us have done well, so not sure how that's impossible.)

I feel like a scapegoat again in therapy which is definitely not helpful.

I came across an article that makes some good points. It is an article on estrangement and while some of us are NC, others are not. We are attempting to mantain contact in the best way we can and distance is part of how we are able to do that. If our BPD parents' abusive behavior has not changed, then distance allows us to be with them for a certain amount of time and then to also have a space where we can feel safe.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/tech-support/202305/no-adult-childparent-estrangement-isnt-a-fad


That said, seeing that estrangement isn’t uncommon shouldn’t lead us to normalize it. Estrangement is not a “solution” in the conventional sense of the word; it does not heal the pain of those who have suffered emotional mistreatment or verbal abuse. It’s a last-ditch effort to create enough space so as to be able to start the process of healing. But prevalence should not make us think it’s “normal"; it’s a response to situations that are anything but.

Numerous studies point to the fact that estrangement is often cyclical in nature, with adult children going through periods of estrangement and reconciliation for extended periods of time; I did it for about 20 years, in fact. I do have a horse in this race and so will say categorically that no one estranges from their parents or family of origin as an option of first choice; it is usually a last-ditch effort to put an end to an emotionally untenable situation.


I have done this as well. I am in more frequent contact with my BPD mother recently in her elder years. Our relationship isn't "better"- her behaviors haven't changed. Years of being in 12 step groups have helped me learn to deal with them better, but there's no "doing this well".