Update on progress

[Depression = 72% of members]

Things have been pretty good lately.  However we just had a weekend trip just the two of us and got caught in some weather on the way home.  We had to stay put in a place that she doesn't like being for four hours waiting for the weather to clear (thanks DOT).  During that time she had a pretty good meltdown.  Frustrated that we couldn't just go home.  Hating the environment she was in.  This is a big trigger for her.  She really has a hard time being "stuck" anyplace while traveling.  I just did my best to be supportive and made sure we got some food for the both of us while we were stopped.  As soon as we got back on the highway all of the tension dropped away.  She became lighthearted and relaxed again.  When we got home she apologized for losing it when we stopped.  She had said "I don't want to be with you anymore!" while we were stuck.  The next day she admitted that she really didn't feel that way.

Still stuck in a circular discussion about "why did you leave me?"  She even brought this up while we were having sex!  It's surprising how even with all the reassuring I'm doing she can't let it go.  She still feels threatened and scared that I'll leave at any second.

I'm doing what I can to keep reassuring her and not getting wrapped up in the circular discussion.  Sometimes she'll ask the question "why did you leave" and I'll just not answer.  Sometimes she'll drop it and others she'll want a response.  So I tell her again that I didn't want to leave but felt like I didn't have a voice in the relationship anymore.  She responds that "well you should have talked to me about it" at which point I say "yes that would have been better".  I'm expecting we'll have this conversation many more times until she's feeling more secure.

I'm still doing my hobby and even getting encouragement to go.  I do my best to tell her exactly when I get there and when I leave.

She's been upset lately that I won't give her all the details of what I talk with my therapist about.  She says that we shouldn't have any secrets between us and it's a health related matter and she should know exactly what's going on.  I just say I understand how she feels but this is what I need.

Thanks as always for the support for me and everyone else on the board.

[usagi]

Things have been pretty good lately.  However we just had a weekend trip just the two of us and got caught in some weather on the way home.  We had to stay put in a place that she doesn't like being for four hours waiting for the weather to clear (thanks DOT).  During that time she had a pretty good meltdown.  Frustrated that we couldn't just go home.  Hating the environment she was in.  This is a big trigger for her.  She really has a hard time being "stuck" anyplace while traveling.  I just did my best to be supportive and made sure we got some food for the both of us while we were stopped.  As soon as we got back on the highway all of the tension dropped away.  She became lighthearted and relaxed again.  When we got home she apologized for losing it when we stopped.  She had said "I don't want to be with you anymore!" while we were stuck.  The next day she admitted that she really didn't feel that way.

Still stuck in a circular discussion about "why did you leave me?"  She even brought this up while we were having sex!  It's surprising how even with all the reassuring I'm doing she can't let it go.  She still feels threatened and scared that I'll leave at any second.

I'm doing what I can to keep reassuring her and not getting wrapped up in the circular discussion.  Sometimes she'll ask the question "why did you leave" and I'll just not answer.  Sometimes she'll drop it and others she'll want a response.  So I tell her again that I didn't want to leave but felt like I didn't have a voice in the relationship anymore.  She responds that "well you should have talked to me about it" at which point I say "yes that would have been better".  I'm expecting we'll have this conversation many more times until she's feeling more secure.

I'm still doing my hobby and even getting encouragement to go.  I do my best to tell her exactly when I get there and when I leave.

She's been upset lately that I won't give her all the details of what I talk with my therapist about.  She says that we shouldn't have any secrets between us and it's a health related matter and she should know exactly what's going on.  I just say I understand how she feels but this is what I need.

Thanks as always for the support for me and everyone else on the board.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Pook075]

Still stuck in a circular discussion about "why did you leave me?" 

If you keep getting this question, then it's possible that you're not giving a 'complete' answer.  Maybe it's time to go a little deeper and actually answer the question.

At one point, you said, "I felt like I didn't have a voice in the relationship anymore."

To which she replied, "Well, speak up more often and have a voice."

Fair solution...if you fully explained the problem.

You said that you didn't have a voice- that's untrue, you were able to speak freely.  So say what you really mean in order to let her process it and truly understand.

It may help to practice it here first.  So, why'd you really leave?

[usagi]

Fair, Pook75.

I left because I felt like I was not being heard in the relationship.  When I came to you about things I needed to talk about you would respond with minimizing and out ant out denial of my point of view.  The evening before I left we were talking about how I had stayed late at my hobby without letting you know ahead of time or even while it was happening.  I admitted that I was wrong for doing that and that I wouldn't do that next time.  You responded by saying that wasn't good enough and that I needed to quit altogether or our relationship was done.  You also said that I would be responsible for the earnest money we put down on our new house.  Later, you said that we weren't having a conversation and that you were just telling me how you felt upset that I was late.

I've talked to her about this many, many times.  She always denies that we were having a conversation that evening and that she was just getting ready for bed and telling me about her feelings.  I conceded that I should have tried to sit and talk through this face to face but still stuck to the issue I was having with her, which of course then became an issue with me.

What I said above is what I'd like to tell her but it would just make her angry.  So I've been focusing on just restating that I didn't feel like I was being heard in the relationship and consequentially not loved/appreciated.  It wasn't feeling like a partnership anymore.

It was honestly the threat of breaking up the relationship over my hobby on the verge of purchasing a house in another state that put me over the edge.  I felt like she was using the situation to enforce an ultimatum.  I initially tried telling her this but she denies that she gave me an ultimatum, or that we had a conversation at all.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi Usagi,

I'm glad to hear that things have been going better for you lately. However, I am sorry to hear that you are getting stuck in circular arguments. This has also been an ongoing problem for me and I have had to put some hard boundaries down around it. Circular arguments are a waste of time for everyone involved and are a hallmark behavior of pwBPD. I have told my wife that I will no longer discuss/argue about issues from the past. They are over and done with and, barring the invention of a time machine, there is nothing that can be done to change that. If she insists on bringing up my past "wrongs" I will walk away from the discussion. When my wife starts to test this boundary I will say something along the lines of "we have already discussed this and it is in the past, I will not discuss it again." If she continues to circle back on the issue, I walk away.

I do not do this to be cruel or to be invalidating, but because it is necessary for me to preserve my own dignity and sanity. It also does not help my wife to feed her fixation on the past. I will no longer enable her BPD behaviors. Having an argument that lasts for hours, or even all night, over something that happened months or years ago is the epitome of toxic relationship-killing behavior. I'll give you an example.

12 years ago we were out for the night on New Year's Eve, which also happens to be my wife's birthday. We had been together for less than a year and I have an ex-wife (also suspected uBPD/uNPD, and a raging alcoholic) who by an incredibly unfortunate twist of fate I had married on December 31st. That's right, my wife's birthday falls on the same day as my anniversary with my ex-wife. The ex and I had gone through an incredibly long and drawn-out divorce with a lot of harassment and acrimony from her. Although we had no children or shared property, my ex dragged the divorce out for more than a year just to be spiteful. While my girlfriend (now my wife) and I were out celebrating her birthday/New Year's I received a drunken text from my alcoholic ex. I deleted it without even reading it, but I'm sure it had something to do with her feeling alone and sad or angry on our anniversary. My gf (now wife) demanded to read the text. I told her that I deleted it without even reading it as I had no intention of ever talking to her (my ex) again. My now wife was furious with me and accused me of having an affair with my ex.

In retrospect, I should have blocked her number as soon as the divorce was finalized or changed my phone number, but hindsight is 20/20. At the time of the incident I agreed that 1.) I should have changed my number or blocked my ex and 2.) I should have let my gf (future wife) read the text before deleting it (I have now come to realize that allowing my wife to read my texts is an unreasonable invasion of my privacy.) I apologized profusely and for hours on end, but she was furious for days. The point of this whole story is that we had a HUGE fight over a text that I never even bothered to read. It is 12 years later and my wife is still angry over this!

No matter how many times she has brought this up (many, many, many times) and no matter how long we argue over it (if I totaled up the time it would be days or even more than a week, not hours, that we have spent arguing over this issue) there is nothing positive that can come of it. I cannot go back in time and change my actions. I cannot apologize more than I already have, and most importantly, I cannot fix or soothe how my wife feels about this. That is not my job. I am responsible for my feelings, not hers. She needs to learn to self-soothe and letting her fixate on the past does not help her learn to do this.

This behavior has been a stubborn one, but she is slowly getting better as I continue to enforce this boundary 100% of the time. It is slowly becoming extinct. I recommend that you talk to your therapist about how you can put a boundary down about circular arguments. Not only do they wear you down, but they allow the pwBPD to spiral when they should be learning to self-soothe. Even on the rare occasion when I have been able to mollify my wife's insecurity or anger over a past "wrong" through participating in a circular argument, she just moves on to the next past "wrong" (she has a list a mile long and most of them are either exaggerated or completely fabricated.) It's not ever really about the "wrong," it's about her feeling insecure/angry/sad/empty/upset etc. and looking to project those feelings onto me. I cannot emphasize enough that there is never a good outcome to participating in a circular argument. To paraphrase the 1983 movie "WarGames" the only winning move is not to play.

HurtAndTired

[Pook075]

It is 12 years later and my wife is still angry over this!

I have similar stories where the same thing comes up over and over again, where I was viewed as 100% wrong and my wife's actions don't factor into the narrative at all.  I've learned that there's only one acceptable answer- I'm sorry, can you forgive me?

I could tell you my frustrations with these instances, how my wife started it and blew everything out of proportion.  In some cases, she hit me.  In others, she bad-mouthed me to anyone who would listen.  I could tell you how all of these things never had to happen at all if she wasn't unstable and itching for a blowout argument...but that doesn't matter if I want to put it in my past and move on. 

I have forgiven her and I don't want to focus on the worst possible moments.  That's not living at all.  So there's one acceptable answer- I'm sorry, can you forgive me?

It's a yes or no question, and the answer is often going to be a "no".  That's okay though, because by disengaging from the argument and changing the narrative, it's no longer circular.  I am sorry that those interactions hurt her...that's the truth.  I'm sorry those interactions have scarred her for life as well.  Whether it was my fault or hers, I'm sorry nonetheless because it destroyed my marriage.

I also relate to that Wargames quote and think of it here often.  If you play the game, you lose.  So stop playing the game entirely since a stalemate is actually a huge win.  I'm sorry, can you forgive me...that's the path to that stalemate.

[Pook075]

Fair, Pook75.

I left because I felt like I was not being heard in the relationship.  When I came to you about things I needed to talk about you would respond with minimizing and out ant out denial of my point of view.  The evening before I left we were talking about how I had stayed late at my hobby without letting you know ahead of time or even while it was happening.  I admitted that I was wrong for doing that and that I wouldn't do that next time.  You responded by saying that wasn't good enough and that I needed to quit altogether or our relationship was done.  You also said that I would be responsible for the earnest money we put down on our new house.  Later, you said that we weren't having a conversation and that you were just telling me how you felt upset that I was late.

I've talked to her about this many, many times.  She always denies that we were having a conversation that evening and that she was just getting ready for bed and telling me about her feelings.  I conceded that I should have tried to sit and talk through this face to face but still stuck to the issue I was having with her, which of course then became an issue with me.

What I said above is what I'd like to tell her but it would just make her angry.  So I've been focusing on just restating that I didn't feel like I was being heard in the relationship and consequentially not loved/appreciated.  It wasn't feeling like a partnership anymore.

It was honestly the threat of breaking up the relationship over my hobby on the verge of purchasing a house in another state that put me over the edge.  I felt like she was using the situation to enforce an ultimatum.  I initially tried telling her this but she denies that she gave me an ultimatum, or that we had a conversation at all.

Okay, so there's three things going on here:

1) Drop your hobby or I'm leaving. 

2)  I never said that!

3)  Why did you leave?

Can you see the circular pattern here?  You'd better do this...oops, that didn't work...I couldn't have said something like that so he must have mis-understood...if I didn't say that, which I know I didn't, then why'd he leave me?

She believes that she never said that stuff, so convincing her of that is impossible.  There's a high chance she said it when she was dysregulated, so she genuinely may not remember it.  That's why you can't explain this situation using #1 or #2 since it becomes a circular argument.

So what can your statement be that acknowledges why you left without blaming her?

It's a trick question that may have no answer.  So I'd change the rules and make it a simple "you statement" about your feelings.  Something like, "It felt like you wanted me to leave." 

She can deny that, but we're not talking about facts anymore- we shifted away from that and we're now talking about feelings.  Your feelings are always valid, just like hers are.  She can't tell you how you felt and vice versa.  So when she denies that she wanted you to leave, you can accept that and apologize for the misunderstanding.  Hopefully she can apologize as well and take just a touch of the blame for making you feel that way.

Does this solve everything?  No.  But it opens a path to communication for validating feelings and hopefully it allows her to move on.  That's the only real goal here, to get past the mistakes that were made and to have a better chance of communicating in the future.

Was she wrong?  100%.  That's why I replied to the post above before yours, to illustrate that the only real goal here it to apologize and stop the circular pattern.  You do that by taking ownership of your feelings in a way that doesn't blame her since she can't possibly take responsibility for her own actions.

[HurtAndTired]

Your grace and patience are truly inspirational to me Pook. I don't know how you do it. I hope to get to where you are at someday, but right now I am in damage-control mode and am dealing with a lot of anger at her for abusing me and at myself for allowing the abuse to happen. While I am working on forgiving her, it is just not possible for me to fully do so while the abuse is still happening. My main goal at this point is to end the abuse 100%. This is not just for me but is more about not letting our precious two-year-old witness abuse. While I know she is not responsible for having BPD, she can and does control her behavior around other people. I am training (I hate using that word, but it fits) her to also extend this control to me. If she can make it through the day with a boss that she hates without screaming and cursing at her, or hitting her, she can also do that with me, her husband. In fact, I now insist on it. I am also keenly aware that the abuse would have never escalated to the point it did had I not trained her that it was ok to treat me that way by accepting the behaviors instead of walking away.

While I can and will fully forgive her when she stops abusing me, I feel like we need to put out the fire before we can rebuild the house. Perhaps your more conciliatory approach of apologizing and asking for forgiveness (when I have done nothing wrong) would work better than simply disengaging, but I suspect that my uBPDw would just use my apology as proof that I have done "wrong" to her and it would escalate her.

I may try to say something along the lines of "I am sorry if anything I have ever done, intentionally or unintentionally, has ever hurt you because I never want to see you hurt. However, going back over an issue from the past will do nothing but hurt both of us more and I will not discuss this with you again. If you continue bringing it up, I will have to walk away from this conversation."

At the end of the day, I guess I just feel like my apologies for things I didn't do are dried up and gone. I can and will apologize for something that I have done wrong, so I am going to take my cue from the Orthodox Liturgy (below) and cover my bases by including an apology that includes doing things that I am not aware of. 

"O God, remit, pardon and forgive our sins, whether voluntary or involuntary,
whether by words or deeds, whether in knowledge or ignorance, whether by
day or night, whether in mind or thought; forgive us all these, for Thou art
good and lovest mankind. Amen"

[HurtAndTired]

Also, walking away from circular arguments as soon as they start has been bringing the behavior under control in a way that simply apologizing over and over again never did. I will include the general apology, but still 100% recommend walking away.

[Pook075]

Your grace and patience are truly inspirational to me Pook. I don't know how you do it. I hope to get to where you are at someday, but right now I am in damage-control mode and am dealing with a lot of anger at her for abusing me and at myself for allowing the abuse to happen. While I am working on forgiving her, it is just not possible for me to fully do so while the abuse is still happening. My main goal at this point is to end the abuse 100%. This is not just for me but is more about not letting our precious two-year-old witness abuse. While I know she is not responsible for having BPD, she can and does control her behavior around other people. I am training (I hate using that word, but it fits) her to also extend this control to me. If she can make it through the day with a boss that she hates without screaming and cursing at her, or hitting her, she can also do that with me, her husband. In fact, I now insist on it. I am also keenly aware that the abuse would have never escalated to the point it did had I not trained her that it was ok to treat me that way by accepting the behaviors instead of walking away.

While I can and will fully forgive her when she stops abusing me, I feel like we need to put out the fire before we can rebuild the house. Perhaps your more conciliatory approach of apologizing and asking for forgiveness (when I have done nothing wrong) would work better than simply disengaging, but I suspect that my uBPDw would just use my apology as proof that I have done "wrong" to her and it would escalate her.

I may try to say something along the lines of "I am sorry if anything I have ever done, intentionally or unintentionally, has ever hurt you because I never want to see you hurt. However, going back over an issue from the past will do nothing but hurt both of us more and I will not discuss this with you again. If you continue bringing it up, I will have to walk away from this conversation."

At the end of the day, I guess I just feel like my apologies for things I didn't do are dried up and gone. I can and will apologize for something that I have done wrong, so I am going to take my cue from the Orthodox Liturgy (below) and cover my bases by including an apology that includes doing things that I am not aware of. 

"O God, remit, pardon and forgive our sins, whether voluntary or involuntary,
whether by words or deeds, whether in knowledge or ignorance, whether by
day or night, whether in mind or thought; forgive us all these, for Thou art
good and lovest mankind. Amen"

If you think back through your life, there was probably someone you had a blow-out fight with and didn't talk to for a period of time.  He or she was so wrong, such a jerk, and you weren't going to engage them until....what?  An apology.

And what happens when that close friend or relative said that they're sorry?  You apologized too.  Maybe not over the circumstances...because those don't actually matter all those years later.  What you're both really apologizing for is letting something minor get in the way of friendship or family all this time.

In your situation with your marriage, you're not apologizing for "what you did".  Don't talk about that because there's no point.  You can be sorry for your spouse hurting though and that can be genuine. 

Again, the goal is to change the narrative and break the loop.  Nothing else matters.  Your wife is angry and bitter because she's angry and bitter.  The way to stop that is so simple....it's to create an environment where she isn't angry and bitter anymore. 

You end that drama through love, compassion, and humbleness...which doesn't include rights and wrongs.  As long as you think she's wrong (and I get it, she's wrong, LOL), she has a reason to be angry and bitter.  So you focus on the bigger picture, just like you did years ago with a friend or relative.  You convey, "My love for you is bigger than whatever happened.  I choose you and I'm sorry.  Can we let that go and start over?"

Sometimes it really is that simple.

[Pook075]

Also, walking away from circular arguments as soon as they start has been bringing the behavior under control in a way that simply apologizing over and over again never did. I will include the general apology, but still 100% recommend walking away.

I agree, it does break the cycle and allow time for things to reset.  The problem is still there though for someone with BPD because they struggle to let it go.  Walking away is smart...it's just not a long-term problem solver.

[usagi]

Thanks so much for the responses Pook75 and HurtAndTired.

It's actually helpful to know that this is a common behavior of someone with borderline tendencies.  Lately when this comes up I have been sort of pretending like she's a child asking about something over and over.  I have definitely apologized for what had happened with as much sincerity as I can.  I've also just tried to let the question hang in the air if possible.  Both work sometimes but sometimes not.

I do feel like there's been a shift in her approach to my hobby and time away.  Now I'm trying to work that out ahead of time with lots of reminders and reassurance that I'll be home when I say I will.  She's even encouraging me to go.

[thankful person]

Usagi, I’ve found that when I’ve been strong enough to consistently uphold my boundaries and hobbies etc are presented to my dbpdw as non-negotiable, she is eventually accepting and strangely encouraging. It’s almost like, she knows she’s lost the battle so she wants to act like she never had a problem with it. Where my wife used to hate me playing the piano due to jealousy, she now sometimes encourages me to do so, and has even bought me piano books.

My wife is also obsessed with my ex, she never met him as I lived in a different country and met her online. She can’t stand to hear his name, or even the name of the country. When we applied to be foster carers last year (and were rejected), the agency contacted my ex. Shortly afterwards my old Facebook account became reactivated (I thought that was impossible but what do I know). She was convinced it was him and I stood up for him saying no way (but again what do I know..) At that point she became convinced it must have been me who did this and she spent the evening painstakingly deleting all my old photos, posts, messages etc off this account. She nearly kicked me out of the house that night saying she couldn’t trust me, which is a very common theme.

[usagi]

Thanks thankful person

We shall see.  Last night she said "I need to ask you a question" and my butt clenched.  She then asked me if there were any other hobbies I'd do if for some reason I couldn't do this one.  I listed a couple.  She then asked a few polite questions and commented about some hobbies she'd like to do some day.  I thought for sure it was going to be a circular argument but it went in a way different direction.

[thankful person]

Thanks thankful person

We shall see.  Last night she said "I need to ask you a question" and my butt clenched.  She then asked me if there were any other hobbies I'd do if for some reason I couldn't do this one.  I listed a couple.  She then asked a few polite questions and commented about some hobbies she'd like to do some day.  I thought for sure it was going to be a circular argument but it went in a way different direction.

I wonder why she asked you that? One thing I find very infuriating (I think this is a codependent thing that is my issue) is my wife saying she will do something and then she won’t do it. She seems to have a block where she announces a goal then researches it, puts plans in place (sometimes even parting with money), and then just drops it early when the going gets tough, or she doesn’t even start it. I got her an expensive guitar for Christmas that was out of the budget because she really wanted it. She’s had about four lessons and now wants to quit because she’s struggling. Stupid thing is I can play the guitar and I could help her, but I so much as mention anything of the sort and I just get screamed at.

[usagi]

My guess is that she was just fishing.  She's made demands before that I quit and try something different.  I've tried to explain how unique this opportunity is but she just writes it off as me being inflexible.  She asked the question in a very particular way, "if you absolutely couldn't do this what else would you do?"  So my view was that it was an extension of that conversation.  Instead of outright stating that I could easily do something different she was asking what if.

I haven't had any experiences with her starting something and then dropping it when it gets difficult.  Interestingly my ex wife was sort of like that.  Which I always though was weird because she was generally a very hard worker.

[dtkm]

Thankful person, my uBPDh does the same thing and it drives me crazy.i think he has good intentions, as the plans are usually set when he is regulated and in a good mood and then when he switches I am guessing his mind switched to “why do something that could have any benefit to her”. Even though not all of this stuff has anything to even do with me. Similar to you, I bought my husband an electric scooter for Christmas. He asked me for one and when u questioned him on its use he promised me he would use i, I bought him the same thing last year but he never used it so it sat and the battery won’t charge now. Yes, could have just bought a new battery, but that wasn’t good enough for him!  Christmas was close to a month ago and he hasn’t touched it, in fact he told me this morning that he will not leave the house with the kids or I or be out around the neighborhood because I have slept with everyone in our neighborhood so it’s embarrassing to him. I don’t have any answer for this except that I see it as more control by them…see I can do whatever I want even if it hurts our family. I think it’s frustrating to us because we are people of our word. We say what we mean and we always follow through, no matter the pain it causes us. As said, I am just as stuck as you, I have just decided to point out things that he says he doesn’t do and then turn around and walk away when he come screaming. Ugh!  I just don’t understand how they can live with themselves!

[kells76]

Hi usagi;

My guess is that she was just fishing.  She's made demands before that I quit and try something different.  I've tried to explain how unique this opportunity is but she just writes it off as me being inflexible.   

That makes sense to me, too.

I wonder what would happen if you smiled and agreed with her that yes, you are indeed firm and inflexible about doing X. Trying to explain it to her doesn't work [to end conflict], arguing the merits doesn't work, but maybe agreeing with her could... IDK, remove that topic as a "conflict target"? Hard to say how she'd respond -- you know her best -- but if every time she comes to you with "you're so inflexible about doing X", you genuinely respond with "you're right babe, I am firmly committed to doing X... I'm getting some juice from the fridge, do you want any?", maybe that can disrupt the dynamic where she gets long-term engagement with you (i.e., circular arguments, etc) over this topic.

She asked the question in a very particular way, "if you absolutely couldn't do this what else would you do?" So my view was that it was an extension of that conversation.  Instead of outright stating that I could easily do something different she was asking what if.

Do you see this as an improvement over her previous approaches (demands, etc)? No right or wrong answer, just curious as to if it felt "less bad" or not.

[usagi]

Thanks Kells,

I guess I don't see it as an improvement or degradation in the conversation, just sort of a new twist.  She's extremely clever and has just fine tuned her ask.  But maybe that's being a bit harsh.  The ask isn't so much a demand as a conversation.

I do like the idea of just owning that I'm not "flexible" on my hobby, even though I've made many accommodations already around it.