I pulled the pin on the grenade

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

You are in the midst of big changes.  And one is almost unexpected, that your spouse is being assessed and treated.  Most likely the large part is therapy.  However, very soon they'll want to transition her to outpatient status.  That - and how that change may impact you - is something to consider.

Did she hit bottom and now can start her climb upwards?  That's a huge maybe, perhaps even unlikely to ascertain at this early stage, the reality is that it may be years before you can have confidence there is real and sufficient recovery.

Here is where the OG part of FOG probably becomes more pronounced... BPD F.O.G. = Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

She - or the changed situation that she is in professional hands for now - may pressure you to reset the clock and retreat from your new boundaries.  Many here have faced that dilemma.  This is where the sense of Obligation or even Guilt may overwhelm your sense of what needs to be done.

Since there may be predictable "helpless me, save me" entreaties be mentally and emotionally prepared to deal with that.

Same goes if she reacts with "it's all your fault!"  Be prepared either way.
 

[ForeverDad]

You are in the midst of big changes.  And one is almost unexpected, that your spouse is being assessed and treated.  Most likely the large part is therapy.  However, very soon they'll want to transition her to outpatient status.  That - and how that change may impact you - is something to consider.

Did she hit bottom and now can start her climb upwards?  That's a huge maybe, perhaps even unlikely to ascertain at this early stage, the reality is that it may be years before you can have confidence there is real and sufficient recovery.

Here is where the OG part of FOG probably becomes more pronounced... BPD F.O.G. = Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

She - or the changed situation that she is in professional hands for now - may pressure you to reset the clock and retreat from your new boundaries.  Many here have faced that dilemma.  This is where the sense of Obligation or even Guilt may overwhelm your sense of what needs to be done.

Since there may be predictable "helpless me, save me" entreaties be mentally and emotionally prepared to deal with that.

Same goes if she reacts with "it's all your fault!"  Be prepared either way.
 

[At Bay]

One thing about teens/kids staying in their rooms. When we visited our out-of-state son and his blended family 2 yrs ago, we could tell he’d told the girls not to go upstairs to their rooms while we were there, so that we could visit or share things with them.

But, so different the next time we saw them when the family flew to our state, and some of the girls were teens, because they all spent time in their rooms except for meals. Our son had apparently changed the rules, which was fine because when we went places with them, they were kind and polite, and also at breakfast before they disappeared to their rooms. Their peers and interests made them happy and occupied in a way that made perfect sense to them.

When it was time to fly back to their state, they even left the car to return for 2nd hugs on the porch. So we decided the girls’ absences were likely teen behavior for these times.

[AlleyOop23]

Eerie. She’s all in on helpless save me I’m sorry I don’t know what’s happening to me will you consider trying again after some separation? She says she only feels calm talking to me. It tugs at me. It’s okay now because I believe her mind just wants the pain to go away as quickly as possible.

But then today she picked up a kid got out of the car and told me how to park my car.

[EyesUp]

@Alley,

On two occasions, my uBPDxw was admitted to a hospital for psychiatric evaluation. These were voluntary admissions, but the way it works in my state, once admitted an individual may held against their will based on the outcome of the eval.  The eval included taking statements from my xw's T (who she had not seen in months), from her PCP, and from me.

On both occasions, my xw freaked out - "I don't belong here" and "I'm not crazy" - she was, after all - in a white room with a bed with no sheets and no sharp objects - and able to see that most of the other people in for evaluation appeared to be non-functional: homeless, drug ODs, or violent episodes, etc. - what I heard at that time was "All I want is to be with you and the kids" and "if the idea was for me to be scared straight, it worked."   When the psych called and asked if I felt that my xw would pose a danger to me, herself, or the kids, I said no.  She was released on the same day.

In retrospect, I should have let her remain for the full eval. Within a day or two of returning home, my xw developed huge resentment toward me. Her narrative quickly shifted to "you set me up" and "you are manipulative and abusive" - she could not process her role in her circumstances, and she ignored multiple professionals in her orbit (T, MC, PsyD, a detective assigned to a 911 call...) who, she decided, were all against her - and manipulated by me.

Obviously our circumstances are a bit different - however, these are some of the themes to watch for and guard against in the days and weeks to come.

I'd say that if your W can demonstrate authentic and persistent self awareness, remorse, genuine concern for you and the kids, and desire and ability to make change - well, that's progress. It's also a lot to hope for, from anyone in a high conflict relationship - but especially where a PD may be part of the mix.

Short of a clear commitment to long-term change that originates within her - no one will fault you for protecting your kids, or yourself.

We'll be thinking of you.

[Pook075]

In retrospect, I should have let her remain for the full eval. Within a day or two of returning home, my xw developed huge resentment toward me. Her narrative quickly shifted to "you set me up" and "you are manipulative and abusive"

My experiences are similar with my BPD daughter, and I can somewhat understand how difficult it would be to go from "the whole world is against me" to "maybe I'm not seeing this correctly." 

I've had "real" moments of clarity with both by BPD kid and BPD ex, and lately my ex has made several statements about how badly she's hurt me.  In my mind, I want to believe that everything is now okay...everything can be fixed...but those admissions and insights are often just small blips in time and not their actual reality.

Like others have said, it's the "og" in FOG.  I've let go of the fear, but the obligation and guilt are still closer to the surface than I'd like to admit.  Love doesn't just vanish and we all know that these relationships are complicated.

Real change takes time, and it's completely up to you whether or not you want to try enduring that change.  I will always recommend trying to reconcile but at the same time, it's not my life and your circumstances are unique.  Maybe a compromise would be to continue on the path you're on, but also try to lend support as she navigates this process?

Just keep us in the loop and let us know what we can do to help.

[livednlearned]

Eerie. She’s all in on helpless save me I’m sorry I don’t know what’s happening to me will you consider trying again after some separation? She says she only feels calm talking to me. It tugs at me. It’s okay now because I believe her mind just wants the pain to go away as quickly as possible.

But then today she picked up a kid got out of the car and told me how to park my car.

How are you feeling in response to this?

Are you noticing changes in how your kids are behaving (assuming they know mom is getting treatment)?

[AlleyOop23]

They actually don’t know. She is ashamed and resentful and says I should be “ doing this too”. I really wish that she would tell them. I think they would feel better knowing that she is getting help, that her behavior is in personal to them, and that they are perception that some of her behavior isn’t quite right is correct.

It’s hard to imagine reconciling. I find it while the big incidents are easier to describe and communicate, and for her to at least understand, it is all the little jabs and Diggs and disrespect and subtle little ways that hurt more. In addition, as my therapist pointed out in these long apology emails there is literally nothing about me or my needs

I think this kind of analysis isn’t really relevant. She’s one day into an IOP and whether that translates into meaningful sustained committed work is completely unknown.

The thing I noticed the most was that she was occupied all day in the program, and I have one of the best days I’ve had in about as long as I can remember. While I am willing to interact and help, I do not enjoy engaging with her at all right now,

I actually deeply appreciate the experiences sharing above, which serve excellent reminders to me of the ease with which attitudes in prevailing mood can change.

Well, I am far from the end of this journey. When it’s over or at least close enough to feel an earned reward I will return to Graceland as the kitchen is now open and I’ve not seen it and I will add a tattoo of AlleyOop To my collection

[PeteWitsend]

They actually don’t know. She is ashamed and resentful and says I should be “ doing this too”. I really wish that she would tell them. I think they would feel better knowing that she is getting help, that her behavior is in personal to them, and that they are perception that some of her behavior isn’t quite right is correct.

It’s hard to imagine reconciling. I find it while the big incidents are easier to describe and communicate, and for her to at least understand, it is all the little jabs and Diggs and disrespect and subtle little ways that hurt more. In addition, as my therapist pointed out in these long apology emails there is literally nothing about me or my needs

I think this kind of analysis isn’t really relevant. She’s one day into an IOP and whether that translates into meaningful sustained committed work is completely unknown.

The thing I noticed the most was that she was occupied all day in the program, and I have one of the best days I’ve had in about as long as I can remember. While I am willing to interact and help, I do not enjoy engaging with her at all right now,

I actually deeply appreciate the experiences sharing above, which serve excellent reminders to me of the ease with which attitudes in prevailing mood can change.

Well, I am far from the end of this journey. When it’s over or at least close enough to feel an earned reward I will return to Graceland as the kitchen is now open and I’ve not seen it and I will add a tattoo of AlleyOop To my collection

If you wish your kids knew about your soon-to-be-ex getting treatment, why not tell them?  This is a decision you need to make on your own, without regard to the whims of the disordered party, who is not capable of considering others' needs, or doing what's best for them. 

As far as guilt and obligations to the pwBPD... I would sometimes feel guilty about ending the marriage and moving on.  But by reminding myself how I felt while in the midst of one of her angry and uncalled for meltdowns, along with the resentment afterward, helped me over that.  She never had any concern for me, for the stress I was under at work, for my relations with my friends and family, for what our daughter thought of me or my relationship with her.  Now, after years of that, I'm supposed to be concerned she's upset that I stopped taking her mental and emotional abuse and caretaking her?  Nope. 

And also, like you alluded to with your parking comment, it's hard to take their pleas for sympathy and forgiveness seriously when you've seen them immediately shift from one emotion to the other with no concern or self-awareness. 

I mentioned it in another thread, but after I moved out and filed for divorce, probably for the first few days after, all I got was anger and insults from uBPDxw.  Then it shifted to begging me to reconsider and promises to do everything to change.  I didn't answer or respond.

Months later, I heard from a mutual friend that at a party around that time, uBPDxw told her that she didn't care for me or love me, but tried to stop the divorce because she just didn't want to go through with the hassle of it and pay so much money to attorneys.  So... who knows?  As you've experienced, they really will say and do whatever they feel they have to in the moment, to get what they want.  It's hard to put stock in any of it. 

I'm sure on some level, their emotions are valid and relatable to a non-disordered person, but they shift so unpredictably and to such extremes, as to really be unfathomable at times. 

It's good you're able to finally enjoy some peace and quiet.  Relax when you can and also appreciate the time you'll be able to spend with your kids without the specter of meltdowns and angry tantrums from the pwBPD. 

[ForeverDad]

The thing I noticed the most was that she was occupied all day in the program, and I have one of the best days I’ve had in about as long as I can remember.

My preschooler and I experienced something similar.  I commented at the time that the silence was deafening.

Another surprise was that when I thought to be "fair" and mention her while she was 'away' he stopped me and made me resume mixing cookie batter.

Sadly, to this day I have no indication my ex ever had therapy.  Yes, after a decade the conflict has been reduced as long as I am careful not to trigger her, but I credit the reduction to (1) me eventually getting both custody and majority parenting time as well as (2) son growing older and now as an adult out of the system for four years now.

Do not let the mental health assessment get cut short by her pleading with you to agree to an early release.  She needs this observation, testing, assessment and professional guidance.  This is part of her consequences, let her be an adult and handle it.

I don't see any reason to halt the legal process either since (1) there's no way at this point in time to know whether she will make progress to sufficient recovery, (2) recovery would take time, probably years, while your children need stability now, and (3) if she really does recover then - years from now - you both could calmly and without pressure or manipulation decide whether it was wise to get remarried.

[livednlearned]

They actually don’t know. She is ashamed and resentful and says I should be “ doing this too”. I really wish that she would tell them. I think they would feel better knowing that she is getting help, that her behavior is in personal to them, and that they are perception that some of her behavior isn’t quite right is correct.

Remind us how old your kids are?

Some of the trickiest conversations with my son happened with a therapist in the room. I can't say enough about how helpful it is to have a skilled communicator helping to navigate difficult, complex, confusing conversations with kids. We get very immersed in our anxieties, it can be helpful to have a therapist thread needles with and for us, so the kids aren't trying to puzzle through crazy stuff by developing their own often incorrect and sometimes damaging narratives.

Is that in the realm of possibility for you?

[ForeverDad]

While you certainly wouldn't share adult matters with the kids, their lives are impacted so you want as little worry for them.  Not knowing can feel worse than knowing.  Or maybe they have a bit of relief from her overwhelming presence?

Would your therapist be amenable to seeing you and the children together soon so that some guidance and expertise are on hand as you share some information about "the invisible elephant in the room"?

The walls do have ears, you know.  If their mother isn't available and exchanges aren't happening right now, they surely have questions.  Even if you don't have all the answers, likely something is better than nothing.  After all, it's not like you can pretend nothing has happened, she's off on vacation or communing on a distant mountaintop.

[EyesUp]

Hey @AlleyOop - How are you doing?

[AlleyOop23]

Hello all. Today I’m just sad.  I miss my kids. I miss the hopeful fantasy potential of my marriage. I miss familiar routines.

Right now the kids activities and schedule make it difficult for my stbx and I to avoid crossing over into each others days. I am a little daunted by what it will take to release myself from the gravitational pull of the orbit around her. When people ask how I’m doing they eventually have to prompt me to stop talking about her. She’s struggling and I am describing how I’m doing by sharing that she’s struggling (so obviously i am codependently struggling as well).

She was in an intensive outpatient program. That tied her up all day which was pretty nice. Now she believes she went “for both of us” and that we both have mental health work to do. She blames me for how she feels and has no accountability for the incidents that prompted all this.

Here’s the advice I could use. We have 13 yo’s bat mitzvah in 3 weeks. I’m trying to keep all peace I can until then.

However she wants to put the divorce on hold and do couples counseling and ‘see where it goes.’ She doesn’t want a divorce. Also she’s still in the bargaining and denial phase. She wants to call it a separation. Or we go to improve communication and understanding of each other.

I want to do everything I can for a possible workable post divorce coparenting life. My kids just want us to get along. That’s what they talk about. I have this compulsion to have her internalize and understand her own abusive tendencies in the hope that MAYBE my kids will bear less of it. She’s already had her eyes opened to
Some damage she’s done to her relationship with our kids.

I wonder if just going no contact would be healthier for me. But o think that makes our kids lives harder.


I do actually want to do counseling around communication and coparenting if that can be constructive. She wants to do family counseling which might help the kids.

But she’s still raw I feel it’s too soon for all that.


I wonder about others experiences.  Finding the line between keeping the peace and unhealthy caretwking.


Having said all rhat it’s really nice to come home and not get tense and anxious when I turn into the driveway.

[ForeverDad]

She blames me for how she feels and has no accountability for the incidents that prompted all this.

However she wants to put the divorce on hold and do couples counseling and ‘see where it goes.’ She doesn’t want a divorce. Also she’s still in the bargaining and denial phase. She wants to call it a separation. Or we go to improve communication and understanding of each other.

Yet you know she will revert to past patterns and cycles, more or less.  Her "struggling" now is a part of her consequence.  Recovery - if it ever happens - would be a years-long struggle.  Yet you can't do it for her.

Here's a perspective... In a manner of speaking, the divorce process is a type of separation until the final decree.

When people ask how I’m doing they eventually have to prompt me to stop talking about her. She’s struggling and I am describing how I’m doing by sharing that she’s struggling (so obviously i am codependently struggling as well).

This happened to us too.  I recall when I reached out and spoke with an old friend from decades ago, she noticed how I was "circling the drain" focused on my ongoing stress.  In my case I was risking a 'rebound' relationship yet was still preoccupied with the past one.  That is why the advice is to wait and recover a bit before seeking a new or renewed relationship.

What would apply to you is to try to focus your comments on topics concerning yourself and your children.

[EyesUp]

@Alley,

Adding to FD's perspective... the D (and even post-D) process can be viewed as a series of negotiations.  When you share kids, you don't truly have the option to go NC - but you can aim for LC. 

You can construct a parenting plan that will minimize direct interactions, e.g., I pickup and dropoff the kids' stuff on my uBPDxw's porch when she is not home, and the kids transition while they are at school, i.e., my X drops them off, I pick them up.

We do cross paths at certain times, e.g., parent-teacher conferences, other school events, some extra curriculars...  it's inevitable.

How about this:  Putting the kids first, consider accepting your stbx's proposal for the weeks leading up to the bat mitzvah.  It's probably the right thing for the kid.  You don't need to dive in to MC or FC immediately, just signal that D is on hold so everyone can focus on the event.

Try to do what you can to minimize direct engagement - try to push communication to email - I avoid txt to reduce urgency and frankly because it's a PITA to constantly screenshot everything. 

Obviously you're going to need to coexist in the same space for the bat mitzvah, and this might be a good way to show the kids that you can both put issues aside for them - it's a very healthy precedent for what needs to follow in the years to come.

It doesn't sound like the bigger question about pausing the D after the bat mitzvah is something you want to seriously entertain. So consider if the FC option would be, in any way, helpful to your kids.

I've actually proposed it a few times, my uBPDxw always shoots it down.  I don't think that my X is would be a reliable narrator or fair participant, but I recognize that the process might be beneficial for the kids.  Selfishly, I'd welcome the chance to show the kids that I will listen to them, and even to my X - without being overreactive, etc.  Without that 'safe space' for such interaction, I hesitate to communicate with my kids about certain things at all, for fear that they will think I'm somehow being unfair to their mom, or putting them in the middle.  I really take pains to avoid that.  So maybe your chance to try FC is actually an opportunity?

It sounds like your solo time offers some release / relief - glad to hear it.