leaving, looking for clarity

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I learned about BPD some months ago, in the process of trying to understand why my wife and I weren’t having much success in couples counseling.    Shortly after I really absorbed this idea I saw my relationship very differently and felt I finally understood my partner.   And that this was clearly not the life I wanted.  In the next few weeks I contacted an attorney and thought I was ready to move on.   But I have found taking this step more difficult than I imagined.   So I put a pause on leaving to see if I could better understand myself, because this felt like jumping off a cliff.   I wondered if maybe I have it all wrong.  

I see clearly that my wife becomes emotionally abusive when she is triggered.  She has splitting, depression, paranoia, and distorted memory of events between us.  We have no real intimacy, and the relationship is very lopsided.  I am her caretaker, and our relationship has slowly eroded my sense of well being and my physical health.   I have come to believe she cannot be the emotionally adult person I believed I married, so I am not expecting much now.  I know she can’t help it.  I am imagining she doesn’t know what to make of me, as I have probably become friendly but distant in a way she has never seen before.  

When I have talked about this with trusted friends and counselors, some do not share my pessimism and are not really able to validate me.  Some seem either unaware of or to not want to get into this BPD stuff.    On the other hand I also talked to some who are much more pessimistic than I am.   I have been struggling to understand this disconnect because I believe there has to be at least a little bit of objective truth here, and it isn’t entirely a matter of ‘how you look at it’..  

So I have decided to post here, and am interested to know if others have had this experience.  With the wide range of opinions even from folks who are supposed to be experts - I am feeling very alone in trying to resolve what I believe is happening in my life.  I can’t recall dealing with any problem quite like this.  I am finding the dreams I had of what our life would be, are very hard dreams to let go of.   And I really want to be sure of what I’m doing.   I still love my wife and none of the choices are ones I want to make.

[eightdays]

I learned about BPD some months ago, in the process of trying to understand why my wife and I weren’t having much success in couples counseling.    Shortly after I really absorbed this idea I saw my relationship very differently and felt I finally understood my partner.   And that this was clearly not the life I wanted.  In the next few weeks I contacted an attorney and thought I was ready to move on.   But I have found taking this step more difficult than I imagined.   So I put a pause on leaving to see if I could better understand myself, because this felt like jumping off a cliff.   I wondered if maybe I have it all wrong.  

I see clearly that my wife becomes emotionally abusive when she is triggered.  She has splitting, depression, paranoia, and distorted memory of events between us.  We have no real intimacy, and the relationship is very lopsided.  I am her caretaker, and our relationship has slowly eroded my sense of well being and my physical health.   I have come to believe she cannot be the emotionally adult person I believed I married, so I am not expecting much now.  I know she can’t help it.  I am imagining she doesn’t know what to make of me, as I have probably become friendly but distant in a way she has never seen before.  

When I have talked about this with trusted friends and counselors, some do not share my pessimism and are not really able to validate me.  Some seem either unaware of or to not want to get into this BPD stuff.    On the other hand I also talked to some who are much more pessimistic than I am.   I have been struggling to understand this disconnect because I believe there has to be at least a little bit of objective truth here, and it isn’t entirely a matter of ‘how you look at it’..  

So I have decided to post here, and am interested to know if others have had this experience.  With the wide range of opinions even from folks who are supposed to be experts - I am feeling very alone in trying to resolve what I believe is happening in my life.  I can’t recall dealing with any problem quite like this.  I am finding the dreams I had of what our life would be, are very hard dreams to let go of.   And I really want to be sure of what I’m doing.   I still love my wife and none of the choices are ones I want to make.

[SinisterComplex]

I learned about BPD some months ago, in the process of trying to understand why my wife and I weren’t having much success in couples counseling.    Shortly after I really absorbed this idea I saw my relationship very differently and felt I finally understood my partner.   And that this was clearly not the life I wanted.  In the next few weeks I contacted an attorney and thought I was ready to move on.   But I have found taking this step more difficult than I imagined.   So I put a pause on leaving to see if I could better understand myself, because this felt like jumping off a cliff.   I wondered if maybe I have it all wrong.  

I see clearly that my wife becomes emotionally abusive when she is triggered.  She has splitting, depression, paranoia, and distorted memory of events between us.  We have no real intimacy, and the relationship is very lopsided.  I am her caretaker, and our relationship has slowly eroded my sense of well being and my physical health.   I have come to believe she cannot be the emotionally adult person I believed I married, so I am not expecting much now.  I know she can’t help it.  I am imagining she doesn’t know what to make of me, as I have probably become friendly but distant in a way she has never seen before.  

When I have talked about this with trusted friends and counselors, some do not share my pessimism and are not really able to validate me.  Some seem either unaware of or to not want to get into this BPD stuff.    On the other hand I also talked to some who are much more pessimistic than I am.   I have been struggling to understand this disconnect because I believe there has to be at least a little bit of objective truth here, and it isn’t entirely a matter of ‘how you look at it’..  

So I have decided to post here, and am interested to know if others have had this experience.  With the wide range of opinions even from folks who are supposed to be experts - I am feeling very alone in trying to resolve what I believe is happening in my life.  I can’t recall dealing with any problem quite like this.  I am finding the dreams I had of what our life would be, are very hard dreams to let go of.   And I really want to be sure of what I’m doing.   I still love my wife and none of the choices are ones I want to make.

First, welcome to the fam my friend.  Please feel free to ask as many questions as you need to and share as much as you want to.

I am going to focus on the very last part. What choices do you think there are? Why are you limiting yourself to believing that none of the choices will work for you or makes you feel that you do not want to make them? Just further the conversation and asking for you to elaborate...

In the meantime please be kind to you and please take care of yourself.

Please continue to engage with the membership at large. We have your back here.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[EyesUp]

Welcome.

This is a process. Given time, you might decide to back further away from the cliff, or you might decide to jump. Or you might spot a previously unknown trail over to the right and choose to see where it leads... Elaborating on SC's comment, there may be other ways to look at the situation...

The impulse to explore all options and leave no stone unturned is not uncommon - especially for those of us in caretaker roles who might struggle with prioritizing our own wellbeing.

It's good that you're already exploring things with friends and counselors, and an atty.

For those who haven't provided validation - Have they articulated specific concerns? Do you understand their POV?  Or could it be as simple as friends who avoid taking a position with significant consequences?

For those who have provided validation - do you feel that you've fully disclosed the situation and received more than sympathy or acknowledgement - something like objective support for D?

In my experience, I interviewed multiple attys before I felt like I truly understood the D process and what it entails, what to expect. When I first started the process, I really didn't know what to ask or how to convey my situation, i.e., how to interview an atty.  So I took my time, and ultimately I think that helped me gain focus and perspective. I interviewed a lot of attys...

FWIW almost every atty will say that they have experience with high-conflict processes because conflict is their business. But not all attys truly have a playbook for dealing with a disordered partner. When I finally found one who did, it really opened my eyes. I couldn't afford the retainer, but I learned enough to bring those insights to my #2 choice, who I could afford and who proceeded very effectively to avoid drama traps and sideshows. If you decide to continue down this path, it will likely be important to seek a litigator - not a negotiator. Huge difference.

In terms of resolving the big dilemma re: no good choices...  no one can tell you what to do. You're going to need to dig deep to determine what's right for you.

In my case, we went through multiple marriage counselors who never really took sides - although the last one acknowledged to me privately that "you and your wife are probably not a good candidate for this process" which I understood to mean remaining together...  later, there was an incident at home and I called 911 based on a past counselor's advice to not wait if there was a significant escalation or signs of violence. Had I not been given that advice, I probably would not have made the call. Later, one of the detectives told me point blank: They see this every day, and it only gets worse. These were the external touch points that helped to give me clarity. 

One of the takeaways, for me, was recognizing that I should not have needed such extreme external validation in order to recognize and accept certain things. This realization led to significant introspection and work on codependency.

If you feel you might be compromising yourself in order to save or protect your W, you might want to look into codependency and see if resonates with what you're experiencing.

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships

[eightdays]

Thanks for the welcomes, much appreciated.   
I know I have to choose what is right for myself as first consideration.    It is the murkiness of whether or not this situation can be repaired, or if it is hopeless and may become even worse that makes the choices unclear.   I have just been surprised to hear from some professionals that they think this might be something that could be worked out, when everything I have read says definitively otherwise.   One said that she would need to understand that there needed to be a change.   But I tried that before and this did not go well.  The ripples from that failed attempt have lasted years.  So I thought he may not have fully understood.  Another said that her condition was treatable if we could get her to the right therapist.   And my thought was, I cannot be the one to suggest that as a solution to her.   And another told me that in his own life, he left a marriage due to mental health issues and then decided after a couple of years of being on his own that he didn't want to be alone and didn't want to find a new partner.   So he decided to remarry and deal with the problems.  I also talked to another counselor who went far in the other direction, and said do you prefer to be alone or in an abusive relationship?

So stay or go.  I don’t like either one, but just the idea that this could be a nightmare to get out of makes me lean towards ‘go’.   It becomes a kind of prison.

Attorneys, I wish I had more options where I live, but there are very few of them here.   I read the Splitting book, and I think the one I am working with understands and is willing to play hardball if needed.   She is so hard to predict I can't begin to guess how this would go.   There are no kids involved, which may limit some of the possible shenanigans.   

I do have issues from my family of origin that led me here, and this has shined a great big light on that.

[SinisterComplex]

Thanks for the welcomes, much appreciated.   
I know I have to choose what is right for myself as first consideration.    It is the murkiness of whether or not this situation can be repaired, or if it is hopeless and may become even worse that makes the choices unclear.   I have just been surprised to hear from some professionals that they think this might be something that could be worked out, when everything I have read says definitively otherwise.   One said that she would need to understand that there needed to be a change.   But I tried that before and this did not go well.  The ripples from that failed attempt have lasted years.  So I thought he may not have fully understood.  Another said that her condition was treatable if we could get her to the right therapist.   And my thought was, I cannot be the one to suggest that as a solution to her.   And another told me that in his own life, he left a marriage due to mental health issues and then decided after a couple of years of being on his own that he didn't want to be alone and didn't want to find a new partner.   So he decided to remarry and deal with the problems.  I also talked to another counselor who went far in the other direction, and said do you prefer to be alone or in an abusive relationship?

So stay or go.  I don’t like either one, but just the idea that this could be a nightmare to get out of makes me lean towards ‘go’.   It becomes a kind of prison.

Attorneys, I wish I had more options where I live, but there are very few of them here.   I read the Splitting book, and I think the one I am working with understands and is willing to play hardball if needed.   She is so hard to predict I can't begin to guess how this would go.   There are no kids involved, which may limit some of the possible shenanigans.   

I do have issues from my family of origin that led me here, and this has shined a great big light on that.

Be careful with the idea of listening to "experts"

Often times it is easy to get caught up in not viewing people as just other people with opinions. Experts are no different than you. Now to give you an educated answer...is it possible for things to change? Yes. Can therapy help? Yes. Is it the right move for you? Well that truly depends on how much work you really want to do. It will be a long arduous road that may not have a happy ending.

Since you are married I can understand wanting to exhaust all resources and not wanting to give in and give up. However, let's remove the emotional attachment aspect for a moment if you can. Try to look at the relationship from the view of X's and O's, pros and cons. Do you feel there is upside still left in the relationship? Do you feel you have hit the ceiling?

Do you feel your partner elevates you or brings you down? Can you accept the what is of your partner and let go of the what she could be thought process?

Now, the one thing I will say that moves the thinking along and helps you from a critical standpoint...you do not have any children so if you have to move on it will be much easier and a lot more of a clean break.

Lastly, my friend the most important thing for you to do is to quit trying to predict her behavior. Stop it right now, this instant! Why? You will be running in circles causing yourself more stress and anxiety for no good reason. You are trying to use logical thinking and trying to predict someone who is illogical and literally has a physically different mind from your own...as in abnormal. You cannot argue and fight with disordered people because it is a zero sum game.

So instead of trying to guess how things would go how about you focus on the path you want to take and focus on what is in your control and let go of what is not in your control.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[EyesUp]

my thought was, I cannot be the one to suggest that as a solution to her.   

This is 110% correct. If you read 50 BPD books, 49 or possibly 50 will say that the only path out is for the pwBPD to come to their own conclusions, seek effective therapy, and stick with it.  When I was learning about this, I called a few intensive inpatient programs (which I could not afford anyway, but hey... no stone unturned!) and they all immediately qualified the situation:  A spouse or parent who influences a program participant will likely fail and be rejected/blamed/accused in some way later.  They have the best chance of success when someone seeks help on their own.

And another told me that in his own life, he left a marriage due to mental health issues and then decided after a couple of years of being on his own that he didn't want to be alone and didn't want to find a new partner.  So he decided to remarry and deal with the problems. 

We have quite a few members here who are in various stages of accepting/dealing with the problems. D isn't for everyone, and for almost infinite reasons. That said, this anecdote possibly proves that anything is possible...  although it sounds like in this case deal with the problems = accept the problems.

I also talked to another counselor who went far in the other direction, and said do you prefer to be alone or in an abusive relationship?

I'm here to tell you that it's not a binary scenario...  but this thought experiment is a really good starting point, because if/when you can accept being alone, then you are on your way to being ready to not be alone...  sounds like you're already doing this work, understanding your FOO, etc. 

So stay or go.  I don’t like either one, but just the idea that this could be a nightmare to get out of makes me lean towards ‘go’. 

One thing that was suggested to me that I could not do due to the pandemic was:  If family court in your county is open, go watch.  You'll learn a lot about the process and what really happens.  My D unfolded during the pandemic and remote/zoom hearings were not "public" - so I spent a lot of time online learning as much as I could.  I read divorce books for men.  And I read divorce books for women (eye opening!).  The best were simply divorce books, as well as the BPD literature such as Splitting. I interviewed A LOT of attys (don't ask for a consultation - some will charge.  Instead, ask to interview to see if there's a fit - there's usually a free :30 session).  If you're in a small town, attending court is a great way to meet attys and see who practices in your area and who handles various situations well.  Of course, not everyone has the flexibility to do this - or wants to risk being seen at court, etc. 

So - how can we best help?  Tactical/practical advice?  Emotional support?  A bit of both?

Do you have a sense of what will enable you to make a decision - for now - with greater conviction?   I say for now, because the easiest option is always "status quo" - and there's nothing wrong with that.

[PeteWitsend]

...
When I have talked about this with trusted friends and counselors, some do not share my pessimism and are not really able to validate me.  Some seem either unaware of or to not want to get into this BPD stuff.    On the other hand I also talked to some who are much more pessimistic than I am.   I have been struggling to understand this disconnect because I believe there has to be at least a little bit of objective truth here, and it isn’t entirely a matter of ‘how you look at it’..  

...

Unless your friends and counselors have been there and seen how she behaves, discount their opinion heavily.

I went through this, and as much as I hate to say it because it sounds like I'm dodging responsibility, the opinions of a few trusted friends were one reason I didn't break up with BPDxw while we were dating.  In the end, it was entirely my own decision, and I made the wrong one, but having friends there reassuring you in moments with stuff like "all couples fight" and "you guys are good together, she might just be going through something" is not helpful.  They're just parroting things they've heard and thinking they're helping out.  But they're not around when you're going through the deepest parts of a BPD's dysregulation/rage... they're not getting ambushed by the pwBPD when they come home from work and having things thrown in their face / smashed / doors slammed, etc.

If you're struggling with coming to terms with things, and have guilt or are second guessing yourself... create a record.  Voice record your partner* while she's raging.  Start a journal.  Write this stuff down.  Track how often you're fighting. 

Do this for yourself, not her.  And make sure she doesn't find out, because her paranoid instincts will kick in, and you'll have a lot of explaining to do. 

I did this, and surprised myself when I looked back at months I was under the impression were "getting better" and saw we were still fighting or not talking to each other nearly half the time, i.e. in a 30 day month, we'd either be fighting or not talking for 10-15 days.  There were even angry outbursts and fights two weeks ago that I had forgotten about.  And that's not even counting the number of times I probably should've brought something up I didn't like, but was self-censoring because I knew with her personality, she'd take it as an insult and get defensive and we'd fight even more.  And hearing her screaming at me and insulting me via voice memos I took hammered it home. 



*if you're using your phone as a voice recorder, test it out first.  The iphone, for example, beeps when you start a voice recording, unless the volume is turned all the way down. 

[livednlearned]

Some people prefer to slow walk their way out of the relationship by trying to learn the specific relationship and communication skills that are not intuitive and must be learned. At a minimum, you learn skills that will help in many other areas of your life, including towards yourself and potentially another partner. The gamble is that changes in you will have a ripple effect on her, without curing the BPD per se. Some go through that process and realize the changes are not enough.

It's not clear how disordered your wife is but paranoia is often a sign that she is functioning beyond capacity. My former spouse experienced psychosis which is also not uncommon for people with very poorly sense of self (like BPD sufferers).

There is an aspect of radical acceptance to these relationships. Especially if she is undiagnosed and untreated and the possibility of either or those is remote. Radical acceptance means accepting she has BPD and assessing your commitment to being her caretaker. It's a very personal choice to stay or go and probably depends a lot on how her BPD presents.

Bill Eddy, author of Splitting, describes a spectrum of severity with the following: :

*generally cooperative, not dangerous
*not cooperative, not dangerous
*not cooperative, dangerous.

Dangerous = suicidal, domestic violence, false allegations of child or sexual abuse, alcohol abuse, substance abuse, etc.

If your wife is not cooperative and dangerous, your first order of business is your safety.

Some of us can teeter between one or the other, especially when there are temporary life stressors.

How would you describe your wife?

Is she employed?

How do you respond when she is verbally abusive to you?

[eightdays]

Be careful with the idea of listening to "experts"

I like this idea, it is encouraging independent thinking.   Let me qualify this and say that I was collecting data from other people more experienced than me in this area, in an attempt to make my own conclusions a bit more solid.   I am finding the group interaction to be even more enlightening.

If family court in your county is open, go watch. 

Wow, that's a really interesting idea.  I am going to look into this.

How would you describe your wife?

Is she employed?

How do you respond when she is verbally abusive to you?

She is employed, high functioning, and on the tamer side of the spectrum from what I've been seeing on the forum.
My responses have shifted over time.   At first I would get angry or annoyed and that didn't work out so well.   Now I will either treat this with kid gloves and not involve myself, or if it gets more extreme I learned a technique recently from one of the books I read that seems to at least close it down.   That goes in the form of all 'I' statements, and goes something like - When I see/hear -blank-, I feel -blank-.   And I would prefer -blank-.   When I hear angry words, I feel scared and hurt.  And I would prefer to be talked to in gentler tones.   

I feel I have at least a better sense of direction now.   I think one of the challenges is that there are so many factors involved in my decision that I can't hold them all in my thoughts at one time.  So I am doing two things now.   I am carefully articulating them all in writing, and I am evaluating this without considering the mental health issue aspect.   There are practical considerations for me that are much less murky.

I also see there may have been a part of me that didn't want to take responsibility for this decision, and so mixed in with the healthy self-preservation goal was a desire to justify what I am doing.   Which I do not need to do.