BPD's and forgiveness

[Depression = 72% of members]

My wife and I are trying again. We have been seperated for 1 1/2 years and each have had relationships with other people. Both of us are now free of those relationships and are spending time together again. She is the love of my life and is finally seeking help for her condition and I am so proud of her. I want to be with her forever.

I have a question for the group regarding a BPD's ability and willingness to forgive. My wife seems to have difficulty forgiving me for the sins of my past. Do others find the same thing from the BPD's that they love?

[steveinseminole]

My wife and I are trying again. We have been seperated for 1 1/2 years and each have had relationships with other people. Both of us are now free of those relationships and are spending time together again. She is the love of my life and is finally seeking help for her condition and I am so proud of her. I want to be with her forever.

I have a question for the group regarding a BPD's ability and willingness to forgive. My wife seems to have difficulty forgiving me for the sins of my past. Do others find the same thing from the BPD's that they love?

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[been there]

   HI steve,

   Every BP is a little different, but for Tina, she had a hard time forgiving also. I believe it was because by forgiving she would actually have to look at her issues as well, and it was to much for her. I also believe that the hurt is extreme for them, and they have a hard time dealing with the pain.

   There was something I did almost 25years prior, and while in therapy is came out as her worst hurt. Mind you it was only a question I asked her, but at the time I was her knight in shining armor which by asking her about something totally destroyed that image she had of me and compuonded the hurt she felt.

   Tina has gotten better after therapy, and doesn't bring up past issues anymore.

   Good luck, Mark

[zenaree]

My BP spouse never forgets, although he is learning to let it go and not use it in any future disagreements. He tends to pull out PERCEIVED slights more than real issues... .things like, "you did A to hurt me" and I'm going what? I think forgiving and forgetting is very difficult for him.

[JoannaK]

People with BPD are bottomless pits of need.  They hook up with a signficiant other thinking that that person is going to be "the one" to fill that pit and relieve them of their internal despair.  And, initially, in the first throes of love, it is true.  But, as in all relationships, nobody is perfect, and they start to see chinks in the armor.  And the inner despair returns.  So unless the BPD person accepts the fact that she/he is the only one responsible for his/her own internal despair, and starts to get effective help to deal with that deep pit, they will continue to be angry with the non.  I think that these long-lasting, deep- seated hurts do result from the awareness that their knight in shining armor is human after all and can't keep away the demons of despair.  The particular incident was when the armor started to rust, as been there indicates.

[bpxso1974]

JoannK,

I love what you wrote so true about not looking at there own bottomless pit of despair.

[optimistic]

S.I.S.--

Dictionary.com gives the following as definitions of "forgive":

1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. 

2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.). 

3. to grant pardon to (a person). 

4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies. 

5. to pardon an offense or an offender. 

Looking through these, I can see that my BPDH is not capable of any of them... .in order to forgive some past act of mine (real or imagined), he would have to depersonalize the episode, which he absolutely cannot do.  In his mind, the offending incident was calculated, vindictive and purposefully done to hurt him.  So it is not like he would just have to forgive and forget the incident, he would have to forgive the evil intent he perceives to be behind it.  That he cannot do.

So he continues, like you describe, to bring up the past over and over and over, and no amount of explaining or apologizing will get him to see it as an innocent incident, not a window into my evil character.

[ddz]

My W, too, has a hard time forgiving.  I'm not sure she ever has; I truly believe that she considers forgiveness to be an act of intolerable weakness and a disservice to the one forgiven -- she apparently feels we should all suffer for our mistakes.   That was, I think, the way she was raised, in an atomosphere of blame and desperate attempts to pin mistakes or sins on someone else.

And, to what she considers to be her credit, she treats herself as harshly as she does me.  (Which, to me, does no one any favors, since she still attacks me and since when she is being harsh on herself she is anything but happy or loving).

She lets go of things for awhile, but they drift around just below the surface, to inevitably rise up at some usually unexpected point.  She never forgets, either, and often one little new mistake, not even transgression, on my part will trigger a landslide of criticism for my past actions, all or most of which seem to be linked together in her mind in one grand plot of mine to frustrate and irritate her. 

I've also seen two other sides of this issue. First, any "forgiveness" on my part toward her and her acts is taken as an insult, a sort of act of presumed superiority on my part, lording it over her, to which she will reply, sarcastically, "Oh thank you very much for tolerating me" or something similar.   Second, if she seems to be sincerely apologetic, any enthusiastic acceptance of that apology on my part will, at some point not too distant, trigger the reaction that I am judging her again.   

[sadbunny]

Yes, I was constantly told that "a stain" was left on his heart everytime something hurt him- basically- if a mistake is made or he interpreted something through his totally twisted thinking - it could never be forgiven- he said so directly and through his actions -

This is not going to stop until it stops, this aspect of her twisted thinking.  I would caution you to keep a safe distance "dating" or whatever - until this aspect is addressed in her DBT and she aquires the skills, otherwise it will be a quick downhill into hell.

Tread slowly.  Love is with you in every step. The joy is in the journey- not the end.

Have you been in therapy yourself?

[Serenity.]

Yes, I was constantly told that "a stain" was left on his heart everytime something hurt him- basically- if a mistake is made or he interpreted something through his totally twisted thinking - it could never be forgiven- he said so directly and through his actions -

This is off the subject a bit but this quote (a stain on his heart?) reminded me of what my ex told me yesterday. Their thinking is so different and their analogies are even more hard to follow.

I am so tired of the projecting, the blaming and names he's been calling me that yesterday I told him I made a decision and I want to end this relationship permanently. Silence on the other end than he said, "No you can't end it, I love you." I told him it's too hard being with him and even being separated there's too much he puts me through and for my own good I need to stop seeing him. His tone changed. He told me "Why did you call me at work? Couldn't you wait until I got home to tell me this!" "Now I have to go home after work a different person." I said, "What do you mean?" And he said I have to push you out of my heart for good. I ended the conversation and told him to take care of himself. We have a baby together so I'm kidding myself. I have to see him and it's going to be the hard part. He told me last week he thought of having another baby with someone else so he could forget about us!

He doesn't forgive and torments me when he thinks I did somethine to him. He has double standards and when he does the same thing as me or worse, it's never forgotten or forgiven, sorta hyprocritical because he doesn't see himself.

[zenaree]

My W, too, has a hard time forgiving.  I'm not sure she ever has; I truly believe that she considers forgiveness to be an act of intolerable weakness and a disservice to the one forgiven -- she apparently feels we should all suffer for our mistakes.   That was, I think, the way she was raised, in an atomosphere of blame and desperate attempts to pin mistakes or sins on someone else.

She lets go of things for awhile, but they drift around just below the surface, to inevitably rise up at some usually unexpected point.  She never forgets, either, and often one little new mistake, not even transgression, on my part will trigger a landslide of criticism for my past actions, all or most of which seem to be linked together in her mind in one grand plot of mine to frustrate and irritate her.

My BPH has a hard time forgiving his parents for the pain and suffering they put him through (documented court records to prove it). and he was raised in this type of atmosphere - where weakness is not tolerated in any form. The only way his parents communicate with anyone, even each other, is through violence, anger, and yelling. And heaven forbid they accept responsibility for any actions on their part. His little sister moved out a few years ago and called to tell me she'd always been told it was her brother fault (the fighting, arguing, etc) and after he left, there was still 8 years of it! She now knows it's them, not my spouse. But the damage has been done to my husband and I don't know if he will ever deal with it. I'm starting to consider my motherinlaw has the disorder - everything in her life is my husband's fault - even his birth ruined her life! She'll tell him that to this day and he's 33. Maybe it's not all related to their brain/chemistry but has so much more to do with how they are raised (or not). But how can you make a grown man forgive or at least move on?

[eternaloptimist]

My H forgives no one anything - including himself - any mistakes he makes are remembered for eternity - any mistakes I make - are remembered until he needs them again -    EO

[JoannaK]

Just reading through this thread.----

Steve, whatever the definition of forgiveness that you want to use, she's going to have to stop obsessing about you and the woman you were with during the break.  She's going to have to stop holding that against you.  If she can't or won't, you will not be able to reconcile long term.  It's going to eat her up, and then she will eat you up.  If she continues to hold onto your "sins" while refusing to admit that she has also "sinned" ---or she expects you to forgive her while she doesn't forgive you--- your reconciliation will not go anywhere.  

I hope she is working through this with a counselor.  The lack of forgiveness/obsession with something you have "done" is a real big issue with BPD-types.  They often hold onto things-- bad or negative things-- forever.

When we were in counseling, my exh used to bring up stuff that I did during the first year we were together (15-20 years after this stuff happened).  First of all, it was not big stuff... . On a few occasions, I fell asleep when he had friends over and was pontificating about something or other.  He felt I disrespected him... . well, it had been a workday so I'd been up and around since 7 a.m., I had come home from work, gotten the house ready for guests, served food, etc., and by midnight I was exhausted.  But I disrespected him because I dozed off while he was expounding on some philosophical theory.  He brought it up 15 years later.  

Steve, you had some kind of relationship with someone.  It's going to be very hard for her to "forgive" you and she will expect you to "do penance" for the rest of your time together... . She's going to have to really work through this one, and the more you apologize, the more you may be supporting her point of view that you somehow did something that was truly unforgiveable.

[steveinseminole]

Thanks Joanna. She is working on the forgiveness thing in her therapy sessions. She understands the need to forgive me which is a big step for her. In fact, this is a monster step in our relationship. As long as she is trying and understands the importance of forgiveness in our relationship, I'm sticking with her. Thanks again for your supportive words.

[JoannaK]

Since you asked the question in this post, Steve, how does your wife's difficulty in forgiving you for your affair while you were with someone else affect your relationship now?  Does she bring it up?  Is she angry or distant when she is thinking about it?  Has her therapy helped her to deal with it to date?

[steveinseminole]

Joanna - the affair was over 5 years ago and I left my home town and follwed my wife to Florida to try to work out our problems. It was very difficult at first as she wanted to know all of the details. It seemed to get better, but I believe there is still a great deal of resentment and mistrust. She does not bring it up often and tells me she is trying to forgive. I hope she can and I hope she can forgive herself for the mistakes she has made. She is working hard with her therapist to sort through the sexual abuse of her early childhood as well as my affair and the way I mistreated her for a time in our relationship.

While we were seperated, each of us had other intimate relationships. I broke mine off to try again with her and the man she was with broke it off with her. She still has feelings for him and is disapointed in yet another man in her life. Since her early years, her father left her mom when she was very young, she was sexually abused by two seperate men, I had an affair, and this other guy left her for drugs and the pursuit of other women. (He was also with other women while they dated.) She feels she is unable to trust me and men in general for the time being.

[Mount Si]

Hi Steve,

In my experience and opinion, the BP has one mantra that seems to drive their psyche.  It's "your dirt is dirty, my dirt is not."   Having to admit that their dirt is no different than anybody elses dirt seems to be impossible because to admit that would mean showing their faults and humanity, even if it is showing those things to the person they love.  I don't get it, but I live it every day.

Mount Si

[izzymae]

I was with my exBPD for 9 years off and on. In between break-ups, we both saw other people. She moved two of them into her house about 2 months after our break-ups but that held no candle to the few short relations I had in between our splits... .because she never took responsibility for our splits. She always blamed me for our break-ups and then held onto anger and rage around me getting together with someone else in the "in-between" times... .even though she entered into a full blown live-in relationship.

Mind you, it wasn't just the relations that she never forgave me for during our years together... .it was the smallest things. She would feel slighted in some way, Like Joanna's example of dozing while her exBPD was telling a long story late at night. It would come up many years later at the most bizarre time.

I think it is absolutley true that these things lurk under the surface, close enough to grab and throw at us when the BPD feels they need something. They'll grab whatever is swimming by.

Over the years, my exBPD did work on forgiveness and her anger in therapy. I did see some improvement, but it never went away. I was always disappointed when I got an angry call, email or letter from her going on page after page about the SAME OLD STUFF... .It made me sad for her... .and sad that I loved someone so much that couldn't let stuff go and enjoy our love and life... .

[DavidBuck]

Forgiveness is tough.  From a Christian perspective, we can forgive because Christ has forgiven us.  Now, that sounds simplistic and so easy?  Not!  If interested, a while back I started a thread in the spiritual section about the difficulties of forgiving in our relationships. Here is a link:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=45959.0

David

[Ratboy]

Yep, I am still paying and paying and paying for some things I did years ago.  She cannot give up the pain.

[Yorik2364]

Hello, folks! Some days ago I hurt the person I love so much that I couldn;t even sleep. I wanted to apologize but I am not seems to be forgiven. I want to tell you one thing, never give up on the person you really love, never www.bigpaperwriter.com/blog/forgiveness-essay

[KatieLou]

"in order to forgive some past act of mine (real or imagined), he would have to depersonalize the episode, which he absolutely cannot do"
This quote from optimistic says it all, I think. Also, eternaloptimist mentioned the difficulty her husband has forgiving himself. Ditto for my husband, as well.
This has been one of the biggest challenges for me in living with and loving my husband - I am a Christian and hold forgiveness as one of the most essential elements of my faith. Reconciliation is a sacrament in my church. I hurt for how much pain my husband is in and that he cannot, at this point, seek reconciliation with himself, with his parents, with me . . . although it has been a long time since he used the things he can't forgive me for (many of which happened before we even met!) in an argument against me, I know they are still there for him. It hurts me, but I think it hurts him even more, because I know by faith that I am forgiven in a spiritual sense. His refusal to forgive hurts him and perpetuates his pain. Knowing how much he hurts and seeing how clearly his inability to forgive limits his life and his relationships helps me understand that the pain I feel from him not forgiving me is actually negligible in comparison.

[Lockjaw]

My experience is my GF expects me to forgive her and forget her transgressions, however, I am not the recipient of the same.

She also does not seem to understand that repetitive "infractions" on her part result in a "punishment that is in excess of her crime" as she likes to put it.

So... .I think since they deal purely in emotion, that makes the memory of whatever it is stick with them. Its more vivid, intense and harder to let go of.

[Jessica84]

I find forgiving difficult to do myself. I don't care if he forgives me - not much to forgive really. My past "crimes" were either warranted (crying or blowing up at him) or so petty to even be considered criminal (forgetting to ask for no onions on his burger). He lets me 'oops' from time to time for saying the wrong things. I may get "punished" for it, and things I haven't done in years can come up as if they happened yesterday. But I can brush that off.

What's harder is forgiving the pain he has caused me in the past - the anger episodes, silent treatments, nonsensical breakups, excessive flirting. I hate feeling resentment and wish I knew how to truly, truly LET IT GO. But something can come up and set off my anxiety all over again.

How DO you truly forgive so it doesn't affect your present and future?

[storagecold]

My wife and I are trying again. We have been seperated for 1 1/2 years and each have had relationships with other people. Both of us are now free of those relationships and are spending time together again. She is the love of my life and is finally seeking help for her condition and I am so proud of her. I want to be with her forever.

I have a question for the group regarding a BPD's ability and willingness to forgive. My wife seems to have difficulty forgiving me for the sins of my past. Do others find the same thing from the BPD's that they love?

I was once in the same position as you (separated for 1+ year), and years later we are still in a dysfunctional (but improved) relationship. Nothing is ever forgiven by uBPDw; things are just not mentioned as often.

[MaryWalters]

Forgiveness is the best thing ever! You cannot even imagine that forgiveness is vital in our lives, don't you think so? Refer to this post: