why it's so traumatic

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Well, OK, Warner, but boys don't get to wear tiaras.  I'm just saying. 

<brightens>  How about an extra-large codpiece instead?

[gambaru]

Well, OK, Warner, but boys don't get to wear tiaras.  I'm just saying. 

<brightens>  How about an extra-large codpiece instead?

[gambaru]

Ooh!  Ooh!  And instead of changing in telephone booths, or on the way down a fireman's pole a la the bat cave, we could emerge from... .

The Compliance Closet!

Ta-ra!  Yes, the Compliance Closet, home to our disenfranchised emotions, self-esteem, and rational truth!

I'm liking it, guys. 

[Modiano]

I'm reading a book from G. J. Warnock called "Contemporary Moral Philosophy". My experience with my friend suffering from BPD is a paradigm of what the author calls a "plain fact" of moral wrong. Like him, I believe that we all have the conviction that at least some questions as to what is good or bad for people, what is harmful or beneficial, are not in any serious sense matters of opinion. That it is a bad thing to be manipulated or hurt, is not an opinion: it is a fact. That it is better for people to be loved and attended to, rather than ignored or blackmailed, is again a plain fact, not a matter of opinion. One does not have to be a student of ethics to grasp what Warnock calls a "plain fact," namely, that those who care for their fellow human creatures are better people than those who do not.

It is tempting to conclude that these thoughts constitute sufficient philosophical judgment of my BPD friend. In the context of moral "plain facts," what more can be said? She used emotional blackmail to keep me within her grasp, she used lies "selectively" to hide her manipulation, and she told me to trust in order to make sure that I would meet her needs, before waving me good-bye with the note that "true friendship do in fact develop over a much loongeeeeeeeeeer period of time." The moral wrongness of her behaviour is beyond debate and opinion, without possibility extenuation.

Yet there is more. And this is the reason why it is so traumatic. In seeking comprehension, we all look for and anticipates truth to be found in the context of ethics and values. The specific task of anyone trying to make sense of someone else's behaviour is an ethical-valuational one. He/she will look at the motivation that can account for this behaviour and limn its moral ramifications on an ethical-valuational scale. However, dealing with the behaviour of a person suffering from BPD requires attention to a given: comprehension and truth about the motivation cannot be guaranteed. For the tragic reality is that the behaviour of a person suffering from BPD can often be consigned to the irrational, where no interpretation is possible, and no lessons can be learned from it. It amounts, at best, to a mystery or, at worst, to a meaningless event.

I have often asked myself about the motivation behind my friend's behaviour. But I can find none. She tried to seduce me, she sought to manipulate me, she used emotional blackmail and lied "selectively" to make sure I would meet her needs, when a simple "please" or "thank-you" would have produced the same result. In consequence, I am left alone with an impenetrable mystery that remains beyong the grasp of human rationality. And my mind benumb any time I reflect back on my experience. It feels like sitting in a silent unreality ... .with a mixture of moral outrage, frustration, and profound sorrow churning in the pit of my stomach.

[gambaru]

Modiano -

Au contraire, my friend.  In my experience, human behaviour is eminently sane.  You could pretty much craft a syllogism from it.

What's not so on-the-mainland is the ASSUMPTIONS from which the syllogism is derived.

"My feelings are the result of something that is happening now.

I feel pain.

Something is being done to me right now to cause me pain."

Two and three seem pretty elementary, don't they?  And for a healthy person, #1 is a pretty safe bet as well, most of the time, yeah?

So that assumption would work just fine... .if one were, say, in a hostage situation, or in a boxing ring.  Not so fine if you're actually... .oh... .in the middle of a romantic dinner, and the way the waiter is acting reminds you of what your dad did when you were five and... .you haven't consciously made that connection, so who do you blame it on?  Who?  Why, your dining companion.  Yes!  That MUST be it!  You're dining companion secretly HATES you, THAT'S why you're feeling this way!  Aaahh!... .Panic at the disco!  Rage!  Lashing out! What have you!

See what I mean?


G.

[sadbunny]

I feel like crying, reading this. G-D - I didn't know there WERE words to express my experience and feelings... .

-W

Glad to help Warner.

Here is a tissue, blow, ok hug, biiiiiiiig bear hug... .

bless you tonight Warner

bunny

[sadbunny]

Ooh!  Ooh!  And instead of changing in telephone booths, or on the way down a fireman's pole a la the bat cave, we could emerge from... .

The Compliance Closet!

Ta-ra!  Yes, the Compliance Closet, home to our disenfranchised emotions, self-esteem, and rational truth!

I'm liking it, guys. 

I just threw my computer on the floor with the convulsions from the laughter... .

sweet lord- wahahahahahaaaaaaaa

An Gam- I was out Tiara shopping today- I kid you not- and then I came home and I saw this - I could feel you typing it... .:D

whoo... .sigh... .

but look, I think Warner can wear a Tiara if he likes. It is important that he express himself.  And besides, I WAS tiara shopping for a boy today by the way- his y chromosome looks suspiciously like an X- but it is a Y 

Which brings me to the symobol which I beleive is utter genious... .   

                                                                                                I


Without the face though -

[sadbunny]

I'm reading a book from G. J. Warnock called "Contemporary Moral Philosophy". My experience with my friend suffering from BPD is a paradigm of what the author calls a "plain fact" of moral wrong. Like him, I believe that we all have the conviction that at least some questions as to what is good or bad for people, what is harmful or beneficial, are not in any serious sense matters of opinion. That it is a bad thing to be manipulated or hurt, is not an opinion: it is a fact. That it is better for people to be loved and attended to, rather than ignored or blackmailed, is again a plain fact, not a matter of opinion. One does not have to be a student of ethics to grasp what Warnock calls a "plain fact," namely, that those who care for their fellow human creatures are better people than those who do not.

Modiano,

While the general point of your post- that at the end of the day, what matters is that you are no longer friends with this person- is well understood,

I would be very careful about 2 things- where you place the responsibility for your being in that frienship and how it went down, and how you allow authors to make "facts that no one would dispute"- particularly when you are searching for emotional resolution.

None of the "facts" that were stated are actually facts and are one opinion along the line of moral relivatism.  There are many cultures who do not share this "modern ethic".  The point I make here, is not to debate the usefulness of the particular "facts", but to open the possibility that you can think about your experience in many ways simultaneously, you can take is as an opportunity to grow and understand yourself and become a better person -you have many choices- this contemporary philosopher seems to be limiting you to one point of view which is very black and white and applies to one culture- and it does not seem like it has helped you to get rid of that feeling in your stomache  :-\


Sincerely,

Bunny

[8472]

"In my experience, human behaviour is eminently sane." Wow ... .that's a stretch, and if it's not that, it's a blatant effort to be contarian on a board where people are searching desperately to find the 'logic' or 'reason' in what the majority of humanity would see as 'unreasoned,' 'irrational,' or otherwise 'insane' behavior. Modiano's post is one of the more insightful and lucid interpretations of why it is 'traumatic' to be in the middle of, and in the recovery from a realtionship with a BPD, trying to look at the connection (or perhaps lack of) between the moral/ethical framework within which we relate to others and the 'behaviors'; which are often seen with BPD's (lying, manipulation, abuse, cheating, irrational control, etc.). His post is an outstanding one ... .the best one on this thread so far.

To say that "human behavior is eminently sane" in the context of his post flies in the face of practically 'everything' I've seen on this board, which as a whole is a testimony on no less than an epic scale that the 'insanity' of the human behavior BPD's manifests on a galactic scale. Indeed, I doubt that the DSM and about a thousand texts on this subject and other personality disorders would ever have been written if all of human behavior was 'sane' or followed the model of "syllogisms" ... .to suggest that BPD behavior even resembles a syllogism is quite a mystery in itself. Heck, the entire psychiatric industry (not to mention the military/industrial complex) can retire to day if "human behavior is eminently sane." Furthermore, the fundamental position here (across 95% of this board) is that BPD behavior is most often quite bizarre and irrational for healthy people to understand ... .to contradict this by saying that the behavior IS "eminently sane" but it's the "assumptions" that have been faulty ... .well, this is just smoke and mirrors and sidestepping away from the important point that Modiano is making ... .it doesn't achieve anything productive.

BPD behavior IS definitively and categorically 'insane' ... .to say otherwise (or to argue that it is in fact 'sane' is a bit odd, and seems to deserve better explanation. Modiano wrote an excellent post ... .well-written, thought-out, and referenced ... .a post that contributes in the context of where this thread started, and which reflects the inner experience of many who've tried to comprehend this most 'insane' of disorders. A reply suggesting that BPD behavior is 'sane' or follows a 'syllogism' in even the remotest way, is ... .well, unproductive, irrational, and somewhat counterproductive in terms of the general direction of this thread. Just "my experience" of this thread, of course.

[gambaru]

LOL.

8472, if that works for you, I say, keep it.

[gambaru]

HappyBunny, you are absolutely right.

Who am I to insist on rigid gender stereotypes?

Warner -- you slap on the biggest, most ostentatious tiara you can get your hands on if it makes you happy.  Hey - can I have that codpiece, then?

[8472]

"LOL"

That was pretty much my reaction to the post of 02:37:38, too, except that I was in hysterics.

[8472]

Happybunny, sorry to rain on the parade, but Gambaru's vote does not, in fact, make you 'absolutely' right, for to be 'absolutely' right you'd have to be empirically 100% right, and if not that, then 100% at least democratically. You don't have my vote on your statement, so your not 'absolutely' right, sorry. Modiano quotes: "that it is a bad thing to be manipulated or hurt, is not an opinion: it is a fact. That it is better for people to be loved and attended to, rather than ignored or blackmailed, is again a plain fact, not a matter of opinion." Our essential wordlview is founded on basic ideas like this, the 'fact' that it is a bad thing to be hurt or manipulated, just like it's a fact that walking in front of a freight-train is going to hurt. We can twist the 'assumptions' around until we have different sets of conditions where there's a nominal chance that an anticipated outcome may not happen, but in the real world we try to work with core beliefs ('facts', which help us sort out the reality around us. Some will argue that you can throw in a witches brew of 'assumptions' that will make the whole human condition 'sane,' which, of course, is not true, because the human condition (especially with relevance to BPD) is decidedly 'insane' for the most part. The facts of what happened (he/she lied continuously, he/she cheated continuously, he/she systematically destroyed the relationship), are the 'realities' (read: facts) of what things transpired to create all the chaos, the entropy ... .we have to work with the 'facts' of what happened to improve our lives, whether we're sick or not; it's all we have. Diminishing the truthfulness of the idea that "it is better not to be manipulated or hurt" ... .making this LESS than fact does not help people in disentangling the mess that has become of their lives. These are not the ideas of only 'contemporary philosophers' ... .these beliefs are as old as time, and they apply to much more than one culture. In fact, I would challenge you to name for us a culture that believes that we are better served in our lives to be manipulated and hurt ... .this would support your contention here ... .to name one. I venture a guess that Modiano, if he/she still has a pit in his/her stomach, it's not because he/she only subscribes to the ideas of the author which has been quoted (which appears to be the case: I do, too) ... .no, indeed, it's perhaps moreso because of the totally chaotic, capricious, topsy-turvy, bizarre worldview/behaviors he/she has been exposed to. That's why it's "traumatic." That's why this thread was started ... .because of the non-sense of the thinking and behavior. That's what tracer was (I suppose) trying to fathom when he started this thread. It's all trauma-based. This whole world's a mental hospital because of 'trauma,' and saying that 'facts'' aren't facts, and that a victim's suffering is misplaced because of all the nebulous and shifting "assumptions," ... .well, it's dodging the bullet, but it's not altering the FACT that these people are ILL, and the FACT that they cause a lot of suffering.

[sadbunny]

Happybunny, sorry to rain on the parade, but Gambaru's vote does not, in fact, make you 'absolutely' right, for to be 'absolutely' right you'd have to be empirically 100% right, and if not that, then 100% at least democratically. You don't have my vote on your statement, so your not 'absolutely' right, sorry.

8472-

I am not really that invested in the debate about "facts" and philosophy in terms of Mondiano's contribution, so I don't think I will be going down that road here by offering examples to fuel a diversionary debate I specifically commented on that I did not think was on topic here.  I think you might have missed the point I made, as well as the statement I made about debating particular "facts" as being NOT the point.  The point you missed is that it was a gentle reminder that "facts" and philosophers in general are not the only resources we need, or have, to deal with emotional situations like this, and that perhaps if in gently reminded that it is ok to take what is useful and to leave the rest, then we might find a mixture of tools that suits us as individuals, to get through it.  Specifically because you brought up the point of M again at the end- then obviously, if any person is still torn apart, they could use more tools or more effective tools-

And to be VERY CLEAR - because you also did not read carefully the thread, and linked me and Gambaru in kind of a disparaging way - please read the thread again and note the mistake you made, which I feel inspired kind of a not nice tone in your response to me and your response to Gambaru (but that is not my battle and I will not go beyond what I feel I observed).

I will copy and paste it here for your refernece.

We are all strangers here getting to know one another and talking about difficult, and highly emotionally charged things. In what way could giving the benefit of the doubt or not assuming that people are less educated or experienced or savvey than we are, contribute to not hurting feelings or stepping on toes?



GAM:  Well, OK, Warner, but boys don't get to wear tiaras.  I'm just saying. 

<brightens>  How about an extra-large codpiece instead?



Bunny: An Gam- I was out Tiara shopping today- I kid you not- and then I came home and I saw this - I could feel you typing it... . 

whoo... .sigh... .

but look, I think Warner can wear a Tiara if he likes. It is important that he express himself.  And besides, I WAS tiara shopping for a boy today by the way- his y chromosome looks suspiciously like an X- but it is a Y   

Gam:  HappyBunny, you are absolutely right.

Who am I to insist on rigid gender stereotypes?

Warner -- you slap on the biggest, most ostentatious tiara you can get your hands on if it makes you happy.  Hey - can I have that codpiece, then?

Happybunny

[Kongs Ann]

One thing I have found out, when I was able to figure out honestly why the relationship with dBPDh was so traumatic. I discovered the reason was that I had to deal with my hang-ups also, and in order to put things into the right perspective. Once done, things began to flow better as I focused on where my energy was needed. Educating myself on BPD, discovering what were his and my hang-ups, and this lead me to understand how I got into the relationship in the first place and why I had continued to stay in it when he was so unhealthy. Sounds easy but trust me it was allot of hard work in the making, and even before he had been diagnosed.   :P

Ann

[burnedbad]

:

Good evening... everyone...

I was reading with such interest... the ideas that were on this thread and all I could so was shake my head... over and over...

I even went for a long walk tonight and thought of some of what was said... and here are my thoughts...

We all cant believe... they dont love  us because... it was complete and utter farce... We think they did a 180 and they did... because quite frankly folks... it was unbelievable... it is all seemed too good to be true... it was...

lik eu never had alove like htis before... where someone expressed them selves so effectively... was so intense...

because Normal people take alot of time to to build up to that kind of feeling...

Someone said... NO one ever loved me like that...

Well to be honest... was it love at all.

NO>> Im sorry... and yes I too have been on the receiving end of someone adoring me like I was a princess only to be tossed in a heartbeat...

IT makes you sick...

and i did nothing wrong...

except fall for some one who... had mental illness.

I am slowly getting over it...

I feel so stupid... literally...

like i was had...

I dont ache for it anymore...

I know it was all fake anyway now...

He didnt feel it anymore than  the door knob...

I just keep telling myself... normal people dont act like that...

It was even hard for me to grasp at first... that someone could love like that... and once I was lured in...

close beyond...

Bam... .

NO contact... dumped...

IN the end he still tryed to have me hanging on.

I cut the cord... hard...

I had to make him accountable for his actions...

and someone said they would find someone esle to suck dry...

and he did...

im sure...

I NEVER IN my life have run into a man like this...

He admitted to me. that he had Borderline depression... and described his symptoms to a tee... what BPD is...

excpet i dont hink he cut himself...

He was very very prone to sulk... and be flying high... the next minute...

very angry... and could go off on me easily...

but could express himself unlike any man i have ever encountered...

YOU would have thought I was a love like no other for him...

We all will be fine eventually...

I just needed to read this stuff over and over... its like a warm sauve on a wound ... helping to heal it...

Thankyou all for being here...

hugs

[justin]

i have been thinking about why the ending of my BPD relationship was so traumatic to me and why it has been so hard to get over. i think it is becuase she was soo into me in the beginning and then everything changed and i could do nothing right. she was constantly finding fault with me. i triggered it i'm sure by breaking up with her in the beginning, but i do believe it would have happened anyway. for part of the reason i left was because she was so demanding and critical of me. But what a change! i kept trying to get the girl back who was so in love with me and though she would appear every now and then, the critical, harsh, selfish girl began to take over. I think it is really hard for me especially because of how much she liked me in the beginning. i could do no wrong, she kept telling me to trust, that it was meant to be, but as soon as i was in 100% everything changed. I think this is why i am left so confused, the 180 degree switch with me trying to figure out what i did to cause it. why else would someones feelings do a 180 unless i did something wrong? correct me if i'm wrong but i think this is the hardest thing to deal with that BPD's do. at least for me, it has left me in a state of confusion. even at the end she told me that it was her that was messed up, then the next day told me the problem was me. i think it's really hard to be adored and then thrown away and ignored as if there was never anything there in the first place. anyone relate?

exactly... .in my saga she is now pregnant with our child who is due in 7 weeks and she is not talking to me... .i am terrified

for my daughter... .it is a sad way to become a father for the first time... .if i had known... .so many things... .how can i walk

away?... .she has friends who are convinced i am to blame... .

how do i leave my own flesh and blood with someone capable of such hurt ?  of course, she has money, and more pride and anger

than anything else, so she'll fight tooth and nail... .

i pray for peace : it has been nowhere in my life for two months... .

she is simply not kind... .

she has no notion of my pain or that her behavior is wrong... .

i tried to address an issue from july where she raged about something illogical in an email

from a few weeks ago, and she was upset that i had not asked about her recent yoga trip... .

just total random emotional disconnect... .

i am seeing several therapists right now as this is pure crisis for me, my work, my life

my faith in love and my anxiety for my daughter and my complete loss as to how to proceed... .

we are not married ... .she lives in england... .

it could not be more complicated or peculiar

it's great to be the physical embodyment - the vessel - of some dead parents neglect... .

injustice is a word that keeps coming... .


peace and strength to all


- justin

[Reecer1588]

i have been thinking about why the ending of my BPD relationship was so traumatic to me and why it has been so hard to get over. i think it is becuase she was soo into me in the beginning and then everything changed and i could do nothing right. she was constantly finding fault with me. i triggered it i'm sure by breaking up with her in the beginning, but i do believe it would have happened anyway. for part of the reason i left was because she was so demanding and critical of me. But what a change! i kept trying to get the girl back who was so in love with me and though she would appear every now and then, the critical, harsh, selfish girl began to take over. I think it is really hard for me especially because of how much she liked me in the beginning. i could do no wrong, she kept telling me to trust, that it was meant to be, but as soon as i was in 100% everything changed. I think this is why i am left so confused, the 180 degree switch with me trying to figure out what i did to cause it. why else would someones feelings do a 180 unless i did something wrong? correct me if i'm wrong but i think this is the hardest thing to deal with that BPD's do. at least for me, it has left me in a state of confusion. even at the end she told me that it was her that was messed up, then the next day told me the problem was me. i think it's really hard to be adored and then thrown away and ignored as if there was never anything there in the first place. anyone relate?

I know this is an old thread. I wanted to say that your story hear is quite literally verbatim mine. Down to a T. I broke up with mine first because like you I was just getting tired of all the criticism. Like you, I think I triggered her doing that. And like you, I searched afterwards for the girl I knew before to no avail. Like you, everything I did became at fault with her. And like you long ago poster, I was discarded and ignored. Today is my 2 month anniversary of NC radio silence initiated by her.

This is verbatim my story. Just insane to read this. 9 years later I'm reading a thread from 2006 and to say that the similarity is uncanny to my own story, would be an understatement. Wow.

[ShadowIntheNight]

I agree with a lot that sad bunny has said, however, there was no "tricking" me. My ex's BPD stuff didn't seriously kick in until we had been together over 6 yrs. I vetted her. I had too much to lose to be with a woman with two very young kids so there was no way I was going to fall for her "you're so wonderful" stuff. I know what I am, but I had no idea what she was, so it took almost 7 months that we just dated. It took another 5 for me to determine that she wasn't someone out to "trick" me, and  behavior didn't change. If anything, she became more loving.

Even after 6.5 years, when she first did her "gotta go" split, she did not devalue me. That didn't begin until the last 4 months of our relationship. At that point she started saying comments that were hurtful, and criticizing me. In other words, we were together almost 9 years before she ever devalued me. In other relationships I have been in, I have been devalued lying before the end of the relationship, so I knew what I was looking for if it happened.

Besides her abrupt departure and silent treatment, the two most traumatic things have been the devaluing and knowing that she did it just so she could have sex with someone else. It defies any ounce of logic. In other words, I could be loving, kind, supportive, giving, you name it, and it wasn't going to matter. Apparently nothing I was going to do was going to change what happened. And unlike so many here whose SO's BPD traits showed up after a short time together mine didn't. She was a loving person at least 87% of the time. For me the trauma isn't just in that, but in knowing that it could happen again, because mine was so high functioning, I couldn't have possibly seen this coming.

[ReclaimingMyLife]

BurnedBad, your quote says it all, why I "fell" and why I stayed:  "but could express himself unlike any man I have ever encountered... .YOU would have thought I was a love like no other for him."  Bingo, that's it.  Thanks for sharing. 

[dobie]

About three  years back into my r/s I was on a lot of steroids I had a lot of rage and she used to needle me complain and just trigger me it got to a head once where I smashed her stuff well that was the beginning of the end she threatened to leave  that and her BPD/PPD father which she used to triangulate me with  even though I sorted my anger out , stopped steroids became the most supportive loving loyal , guy fixed up my life went back to work did everything I could the trust and her fathers triangulation doomed everything he put it in her head I was just using her for her money (bull___) that I was going to quit my job (I'd be working three years ) once we bought a house , that I was going to divorce her and take half of everything she worked for (bull___) basically all the stuff that POS did to her mother .

No matter what , no matter how hard I tried.  her resentment , her anger , her paranoia her unhappiness just got worse . her blame , her moods , her need for soothing .

I detest her father not just for tuning our r/s but because he is a sorry excuse for a man a husband and a father and the main reason my x is so damaged .

Even after the BU she still thinks I used her for her money and feels anger towards me because of that paranoid nonsense .  she even told my bro six months out that she was sure I would quit my job and leave her with the mortgage .

This is all the thoughts her pos father put in her head . so know I now I was not just dealing with her BPD traits but his PPD/BPD/aspd

So yeah that's why its so hard for me  because I busted a gut to keep the r/s and her happy to be thrown in the garbage used and discarded , slandered ,  ignored minimised blamed and left to the wolves .

I detest her for what she did but more than that I detest myself for even still caring and loving her after all that .

[arlers]

I SO relate to a lot of the comments made about why its so hard to let go. I relate esp to the feeling of being derrailed and abandoned and then treated as a nobody. I was with my ex ( did not realise she was BPD until after b-up) for nearly 6 yrs on and off. I left her as her criticism, silent deadly treatment and coldness became too much. The idealised love bombing had stopped a few years before but she still 'loved' me etc - she is truly emotionally and to some extent mentally dysfunctional and distorted and I stayed TOO long. I do feel for her despite the very harsh abuse in every way- she is SO removed from her true self and lives off a host rrplacement at all times. I still love her - cannot deny that but I wqould NEVER return to that war zone again. I can only hope she hits a rock bottom one day and seeks help but she hates counselling of any kind and insists: 'there's nothing wrong with me... .have no issues' oh REALLY!

[LivingOn]

I can relate to all of the posts. Like every ones story on here the beginning was so good, the things she told me no woman told me before. Then I started to notice the lies, then she started to act different ex: she would call me over for dinner then she would criticism me for being 30 years old and not being able to eat properly, she would warn me not to come over unannounced. She would tell me you don't text me enough or your texts are to short, towards the end she tells me you didn't  text me enough. She would always tell me that i don't care enough about her and that i will find someone younger and better looking, then she would tell me that am over reacting when clearly i could tell that she is doing something behind my back and then few days later she would text me sating " I don't know why you are so patient with me, but i want you to know that am thankful"  She would cancel our plans the last minute, at the start I would tolerate ti but i few times i told her hey whats the problem why do you keep doing this, boy would she get angry. The sex was regular at the start, later only when she wanted to, her reason for not wanting sex, oh all you want is sex, i got my period, you don't cum and it does my head in, you dont find me attractive enough and am paranoid. So many things it drove me insane, and i STILL  think i should of been more patient with her and that it might of worked

[Turkish]

This is a worthwhile topic of discussion, but this thread has reached its post limit. Please feel free to continue the discussion in a new thread.

Turkish