I think you have indeed described a process that is played out in these and other dysfunctional relationships Street... .

Though labels have proved to be quite interchangable depending on the creator and his/her experience, this construct of a circumstance is often referred to as denial... .

IMHO

Lenny

Dear Lennic, StressedInCleveland,

Thanks for your posts! Appreciate the feedback.  

But Lennic  wouldn't "denial" be an outright negation of an event/action while in my case as described, I did not deny the content but put "positive spin" to it for my own need. (I think BPDs purposely or not ARE frequently very vague in their wording leaving open the possibility of many reads into them: We as Nons I feel project the positive read). I would think that "denial" would be the case if she said, "I'm leaving" and I read this as being not true.  

Hmmmmmm.

Very interesting notion, Street.  I tend to agree with you. 

I am recently separated from my uBPDH after a long marriage.

I think that for me, I "put the positive spin" on and shouldered a lot of the troubles--which kept things going in what seemed a reasonable way for a long time.  I dont think I was in denial. I really wasnt lying to myself.  I really thought I was being a good partner and my H was just needy... .

Then, I think things got worse, but I was so entrenched, and it was gradual (bursts of downhill followed by new plateaus) that I really, honestly didnt "see" how bad things were. 

And I think there was projection on my part. I assumed  his motivations were more like mine than they are.   So I gave him credit where none was due.    I was well trained in the "glass 3/4 full approach" the "look on the bright side" by my FOO.

For a loong, time I really think I was more ingorant than I was in denial.  And my projecting my idea, motivations and beliefs prolonged that... .

(but maybe I am in denial   /:) 

Crystal

I don't doubt that at all crystal... As I can't speak for anyone but me,,I was certainly "exposed" in this inclimate relationship... .had no idea there was such a condition so exclusively fearfull.

But at some point along the way,,,after the "quacks" were ear numbing, it would be a lie to say I was still ignorant of the facts. At that point my need for the swam was all that mattered and all the frigging quacking in the world,,would not change my illusion.

It took the duck waddling away for me to begin to see the reality of what I had denied... .

The rest of the picture came from here...

Lenny

Dear Lennic, Bdawn, Crystal:

Thanks for your input. The bottom line for me has been trying to figure out how to figure out how I perpetuated a relationship which essentialy was always a mirage.  I thought we gave, as nons a positive "projection" ("spin" if ya will, while others here think it to be more of "denial".  Hmmmm... .projection/denial, where have I heard that before?




Street   

Yes, Beanie, I agree and thanks for  the input!

I particularly liked your use of the word "culpable" in describing our interactions with our BPDSOs once the red flag goes up (provided that one can "see" it AS red), and not perhaps but merely as a tad bit PINK!

I think this was the point that Crystal was trying to make--our "healthy" upbringing encourages us to see the "good" in others (forgive/forget, etc.) and so we wait until we are in extremis before we act (thus recognizing the flag is RED), but, unfortunately by then its many times too late! 

So I think we Nons use a combination of both (projection/denial) and I wonder if this is but an infection by our BPDSOs spread to us by proximity of relationship with them ("fleas", if you will), which hooks the unhealthy parts that live in us all?




Street 

Ripe,

Perhaps BPDs have a radar for finding caring individuals.

However, in my very humble opinion, and I can't speak for anyone else but me, I believe that often the non-BPD adopts that caring persona in response to events that have happened in his/her own childhood.

It is said in SWOE, by a psychiatrist, that non-BP's often have unresolved issues with a parent.

This would be where denial would be the problem of the non-BP, and why we entered into that macabre danse with our BP.

Perhaps most people have some unresolved issues with a parent. Perhaps most do not. I don't know.

To enter into a relationship with a BP and then leave when the first red flags would become inappropriate destructive behaviour would be normal and just part of life.

However to enter into a relationship with a BP and then, to put up with the abuse, the rollercoaster to hell, and the whole absolute destructive behaviour... .even almost to long for the drama, the greek tragedy, is not healthy and requires from the non-BP a serious self examination as to the inner motives of staying.

Just my opinion on how I see the reasons why I stayed for so long and almost begged for more... .as many others on this board.

Thanks for your thoughs crystal. 

I think you are correct in many ways!

Wait,... .what did I just say in the above sentence?

Did I say you were correct about anything I read in your post? NO! (or maybe yes!). If ya thought I was refering to your post you could be totally off the mark.  I might be inferring that you were politically correct, or might be making a TOTALLY vacuous statement.

I thnk we as nons need to ask more probing questions in which case we might have a chance to ferret out OUR projection to BPDSO, but if we ignore what we get (or don't get) with probe then we are in denial.

For example, looking back at my exBPDgf (a 10 out of 9 on the BPD scale) when I asked her why she said she loved me, all she could do was say "because I just do".  Now I had projected  all the reasons she should love me when she first issued that remark, but my probe would have dispelled any of what I projected and shown her to be empty and just mirroring my words.

As Nons I think we need to probe remarks layed on us and not read into (project) upon them.

This may serve to unmask the emotionally bankrupt/empty who attempt to ensnare us (BPD or not).



Street.       

Call me Cleopatra, Queen of 'da Nile... .There may be projections on our part too, but what you described is denial. 

As time goes on we are numbed by the bad behaviour, it seemed more normal the longer I put up with it.

Red flags fade. 

My good friend was involved with an extremely violent multiple PD type... .(she is finally out).  She heard my stories, but continued to say, 'He is my friend & I don't see it... .bla bla... ." 

One of my NPD/BPD's idiosyncrasies was an inability to eat Japanese food without flipping out... .so I had not eaten sushi with him in years.  She (half Japanese) & I had planed to dine together & "allowed" him to join us.  As the "guest" I put her between us at the sushi bar.  NPD/BPD could not take it & started shouting at her, left us there.  She was afraid to speak to him for weeks, has not ever seen him the same since.  He has been violent a few times in 25 years but nothing like what she went through for years.  Her Japanese background had her more offended by the public nature of his outburst?  I, on the other hand, sat through it, with her between us, noisy restaurant, thinking... .oh not again.  It was, to me, almost a joke.  Left me wondering at how numb I had become... .

While I'm on the sushi subject... .that last time, years before, was so funny.  The service was excruciatingly slow & the estranged was ranting... .low level, fairly quiet.  I kept his lid on, but finally he got personal.  I finally lost my temper (the other 3 times he left me alone with the bill) & threw the last of my KIRIN in his face, left, hitting the door with the base of my palm.  I thought no one noticed.  But as I hit the door, one of the 4 young men at the sushi bar sang, with a perfect Chris Issac inflection, "She's Up & Walkin!"  Hilarious!  It's been a favorite ever since!

Silas

Thanks StressedinCleveland for your thoughts on this rather weighty subject.

But again, I think a very importat distinction must be made between the concepts of "projection" and "denial".

Projection: To project parts of oneself (usualy negative as with BPD/positive as with Nons) onto another (in its strictist sense to avoid examining/feeling/taking responsibilty for what s projected).  Example: BPD says to Non (after a 'bout of raging) "You have a destructive temper".

Denial: To negate that which has ocurred either by behavior or verbal expression. Example:

BPD says to Non (after saying verbally abusive remarks) "I never said any such thing" (and to add to this by BPD using projection), "In fact, you were being verbally abusive to me".

Now I believe WE as Nons use projection and denial also! But in a different way, to create positive spin and thus maintain the relationship

 

Thus in the above example: Nons project (to the rage fit) "He/she must be having a hard day" or "Everybody neds to blow off some steam once in awhile".

In the above example Nons use of denial would be: "HE/she wasn't abusive--("you just don't know him/her, he/she is really a nice person".)


I don't know if that clarifies for ya.  Sheeeet! Been reading waaaaaay too much of this psychoanalytic stuff!




Street        

Bdawn ya ask a good question about the difference between projection and denial.

By my readings on this stuff, Projection is actively taking a negative part of onself and REASSIGNING it to another (moving it away from oneself toward another).

Denial on the other hand, would be to NEGATE that that part existed at all (not a part of self OR another).


Don't know if that makes it clearer for ya, Bdawn.  Please let me know.




Street 

As Nons I think we need to probe remarks layed on us and not read into (project) upon them. This may serve to unmask the emotionally bankrupt/empty who attempt to ensnare us (BPD or not).

Street and Crystal - I also appreciate this weighty discussion because I do not want to have another dysfunctional relationship in the future. What is said here helps me to understand my problems as an enabler to the BPD and other PD's.

Even when I see clearly how empty and emotionally bankrupt my SO is, it is hard to end the dance. I think I am intrigued by the drama and danger... .the challenge.

I like Dave Koz' version of The Dance when he sings the words, "Our lives are better left to chance... .If I'd have known the pain, I would have missed the Dance... .would have missed the Dance."

Well, it seems to me that for most of us the problem is not finding ways to learn more information, but to get ourselves to react appropriately to the information we already have.  In virtually every story I read, as with my own, there were all sorts of red flags which were seen, and for whatever reason, minimized or ignored. We chose to see what we wanted to see and believe what we wanted to believe, and that was our projection (or denial).

In my case, I think the root reason was fear of embarking on a more challenging relationship, where the possibilities of rejection might be greater or more painful. Let's face it, there's something convenient and gratifying about someone who quickly forms an attachment and seems to see a special value in everything you do.  It's tempting indeed.  The problem, of course, is that you get exactly what you sought -- someone with a superficial attachment to the surface of who you are, and someone who can just as easily lose their affection or attach it to someone else.

Thanks for the posts Lydia,JMR!

Yes, I agree. I guess an even deeper level of examining this dynamic (i.e. Nons use of projection/denial) would be to discern why someone would NOT probe when presented with potentially ambiguous information to attempt, if possible, to obtain some clarification (as we would do freely in most buisness situations!).

The failure to probe certainly could be a red flag to others who see us not do it, and possibly, maybe even a flag to ourselves!  If it were not a flag to ourselves then we are, I submit, most likely using a form of, at least in part, unconscious denial or projection out of our own anxiety at what might/might not be  forthcoming from our BPDSO, if we were to probe!

Man, this gets heavier with each go-around!   




Street