2.13 | Do We Use Projection Toward Our BPD Partner?

[StreetSmart]

I had been doing a lot of thinkin' lately about my exBPDgf and about her projecting negative stuff about herself onto me.  

My understanding is that "Projection" is a form of psychological defense that Borderlines use as a means of redirecting away from themselves, negative aspects of themselves (and placing them on us).  In this way, apparently they can safeguard their fragile self-integrity by never having to accept responsibility or self-examine more unseemly behaviors.

This got me to wondering if we, the supposedly more healthy, do something like this in order to maintain our fragile co-existance (I think "relationship" is implying more substance than actually exists) with our BPD partner.

Looking back at conversations with my ex I can see where I "projected" my "good" parts toward her (rather than the usual BPD "bad" form).

Thus, I remember her saying to me at last re-engagement, "(My Name), I need the space to work on myself so I can be strong and enjoy things".  "You just gotta be patient with me".

Now when it was first said to me, my ears heard these words, but my brain processed it as: "What a sweet, self-sacrificing task she is undertaking for us to be together and she just wants me to be reasonable and patient"

WRONG! That I believe was MY mental "projection" onto her/her words. She, by word, mentioned nothing of the sort in this phrase.  I read into (projected) what I wanted to be the good spin.  Reality Check: Above statement by my ex meant I'm leaving you but stick around in case I need you.

I believe this is a way for us as Nons to "maintain" the relationship as good/viable by projecting our positive parts onto our BPD partners.


Anybody else see this/do this by us Nons.            

[lennic]

I think you have indeed described a process that is played out in these and other dysfunctional relationships Street... .

Though labels have proved to be quite interchangable depending on the creator and his/her experience, this construct of a circumstance is often referred to as denial... .

IMHO

Lenny

[StressedinCleveland]

I thinking what you are describing is "giving them the benefit of a doubt", which we non's do way too much. This is not projecting.

My wife is a social worker (I put her through school) and has been in therapy for 15 years, so she knows all the jargon. So one of our typical arguments goes like this (with no sense of irony on her part!):

Me: "I believe you're projecting again, honey."

She: "I am not projecting! You're the one who's projecting!"

[StreetSmart]

Dear Lennic, StressedInCleveland,

Thanks for your posts! Appreciate the feedback.  

But Lennic  wouldn't "denial" be an outright negation of an event/action while in my case as described, I did not deny the content but put "positive spin" to it for my own need. (I think BPDs purposely or not ARE frequently very vague in their wording leaving open the possibility of many reads into them: We as Nons I feel project the positive read). I would think that "denial" would be the case if she said, "I'm leaving" and I read this as being not true.  

[lennic]

I don't think so Street... .denial is far too self fullfilling and devious for dealing with an idea by outright expulsion.

Denial, simply put, is lying to oneself. It can't be denial if you don't know the Truth,,that would be ignorance of the fact.

But if you know that a duck is quacking in front of you and you tell/convince yourself it is a swan... .for whatever silly, dillusional or dysfunctional reason, you are in denial.

An addict who just watched his friend be carted to the morgue and tagged John Doe,,,straps his arm and looks for a vien not collasped... .is waiting for the swan... .

IMHO

Lenny

[crystal]

Hmmmmmm.

Very interesting notion, Street.  I tend to agree with you. 

I am recently separated from my uBPDH after a long marriage.

I think that for me, I "put the positive spin" on and shouldered a lot of the troubles--which kept things going in what seemed a reasonable way for a long time.  I dont think I was in denial. I really wasnt lying to myself.  I really thought I was being a good partner and my H was just needy... .

Then, I think things got worse, but I was so entrenched, and it was gradual (bursts of downhill followed by new plateaus) that I really, honestly didnt "see" how bad things were. 

And I think there was projection on my part. I assumed  his motivations were more like mine than they are.   So I gave him credit where none was due.    I was well trained in the "glass 3/4 full approach" the "look on the bright side" by my FOO.

For a loong, time I really think I was more ingorant than I was in denial.  And my projecting my idea, motivations and beliefs prolonged that... .

(but maybe I am in denial   /:) 

Crystal

[crystal]

one more thought on this.

Lenny wrote: 

But if you know that a duck is quacking in front of you and you tell/convince yourself it is a swan... .for whatever silly, dillusional or dysfunctional reason, you are in denial

Perhaps many nons are raised in a way that they DONT recognize the quack of the duck! 

I for one, was raised in a very loving family but was poorly equipped to recognize, much less deal with PDs or other manipulative people. This is not an excuse-- it is a truth I have recently discovered and confirmed with my lovely sibs.

Crystal

[lennic]

Perhaps many nons are raised in a way that they DONT recognize the quack of the duck! 

I don't doubt that at all crystal... As I can't speak for anyone but me,,I was certainly "exposed" in this inclimate relationship... .had no idea there was such a condition so exclusively fearfull.

But at some point along the way,,,after the "quacks" were ear numbing, it would be a lie to say I was still ignorant of the facts. At that point my need for the swam was all that mattered and all the frigging quacking in the world,,would not change my illusion.

It took the duck waddling away for me to begin to see the reality of what I had denied... .

The rest of the picture came from here...

Lenny

[Bdawn]

I agree with Lenny, I think this is more a type of denial rather than projection. Non refuse to see the truth, that being that there partners are manipulative, selfish, emotionally stunted and mentally disturbed. We keep lying to ourselves about their true intentions, we tell ourselves that they really love us when their actions towards us are anything but loving. We tell ourselves that we can help and we can fix them and all the while things are just deteroriating more and more right before our very eyes. We grasp at any hope and anything good that borderline does for us is all it takes to keep us hanging on to the fantasy. They go to therapy once or even just say they are willing to consider therapy and we tell ourselves 'see they are really trying' or the admit fault once and we think they are getting better and seeing things more rationally conviently forgetting the fact that they still blame us 99% percent of the time. This is living in denial.

[StreetSmart]

Dear Lennic, Bdawn, Crystal:

Thanks for your input. The bottom line for me has been trying to figure out how to figure out how I perpetuated a relationship which essentialy was always a mirage.  I thought we gave, as nons a positive "projection" ("spin" if ya will, while others here think it to be more of "denial".  Hmmmm... .projection/denial, where have I heard that before?




Street   

[eastmeetswest]

The bottom line I think... .we all ignored the initial and early red flags.  No matter how we dissect it or still try to deny it.  We are culpable as soon as the first red flag comes up on the horizon.

Yes, we somewhat project onto them and it is denial.  Has to be, by definition.  But, I would think the projection phase is just that, a phase which quickly leaves with the honeymoon. 

I don't know but if one did it, denial, to the extreme that may be a form of narcissism - where no one in the immediate circle does wrong as that is a bad reflection on the NPD (and also creates instability).

I have been trying also to figure it out, Street.   Beanie

[StreetSmart]

Yes, Beanie, I agree and thanks for  the input!

I particularly liked your use of the word "culpable" in describing our interactions with our BPDSOs once the red flag goes up (provided that one can "see" it AS red), and not perhaps but merely as a tad bit PINK!

I think this was the point that Crystal was trying to make--our "healthy" upbringing encourages us to see the "good" in others (forgive/forget, etc.) and so we wait until we are in extremis before we act (thus recognizing the flag is RED), but, unfortunately by then its many times too late! 

So I think we Nons use a combination of both (projection/denial) and I wonder if this is but an infection by our BPDSOs spread to us by proximity of relationship with them ("fleas", if you will), which hooks the unhealthy parts that live in us all?




Street 

[Ripe]

Following on that train of thought, I believe BPD people have a radar for finding partners who are good at heart, who will give them the benefit of the doubt, who will try to see the good in them, who will empathize with them, who will try to stay in the game through denial or positive projection.

In my case, I had a wonderful family background with parents who loved each other until the end. Without doubt I am unconsciously projecting the positive characteristics of my mother on my partners. This is probably my Achilles heel as far as BPD women. It is very difficult for me to conceive that a person who tells me that she loves me can have bad intentions with me. Even now that we are separated, I struggle with seeing her for who she is.

[turquoise]

Ripe,

Perhaps BPDs have a radar for finding caring individuals.

However, in my very humble opinion, and I can't speak for anyone else but me, I believe that often the non-BPD adopts that caring persona in response to events that have happened in his/her own childhood.

It is said in SWOE, by a psychiatrist, that non-BP's often have unresolved issues with a parent.

This would be where denial would be the problem of the non-BP, and why we entered into that macabre danse with our BP.

[StreetSmart]

Dear Ripe, Right-On! My sentiments, exactly!  Thanks for sharing.

Turquoise, thanks for your input.  But tell me, WHO do you know on earth that doesn't have some unresolved issues with a parent (meaning then that ANYONE is vulnerable to BPD hooks if this were the criterion for engagement with them).



Street   

[turquoise]

Perhaps most people have some unresolved issues with a parent. Perhaps most do not. I don't know.

To enter into a relationship with a BP and then leave when the first red flags would become inappropriate destructive behaviour would be normal and just part of life.

However to enter into a relationship with a BP and then, to put up with the abuse, the rollercoaster to hell, and the whole absolute destructive behaviour... .even almost to long for the drama, the greek tragedy, is not healthy and requires from the non-BP a serious self examination as to the inner motives of staying.

Just my opinion on how I see the reasons why I stayed for so long and almost begged for more... .as many others on this board.

[crystal]

Street

I like the pink flags analogy... .I think this thread is really important because I want true understanding of how I got myself into such a state and how I stayed there for so long... .cuz I don't want to do it again. 

Projection/denial? probably a combination. Does it matter which?  Yes because being aware of what I am prone to do is a first step to not doing it again.  And fundamentally there are some diffeerences between denial and projection.  I think I projeced a lot--my H would say something and I would assume I knew what he really meant--cuz I was projecting... .iperhaps if I had probed deeper, been more openly curious about some of what he said I would have wised up sooner.  Why wasn't I more inquisitive?  Partially m insecuritythat was there from the beginning partially the reinforcemtn I got to NOT question him cuz his response was so negative.  This is at least part of the denial part... .I ignored the fact that his inability to take criticism was a red flag.

Maybe my situation is different--i am sharing all of this partially for me but also because I think this is a really big issue for nons--how did we get to where we are?  Thanks for readig,

Right now, fresh out of a relationship I can see that in future relationships I could easily way overreact to pink flags and think they were red flags.  I will not strike the right balance and either find another PD or run scared from normal guys

.crystal

[StreetSmart]

Thanks for your thoughs crystal. 

I think you are correct in many ways!

Wait,... .what did I just say in the above sentence?

Did I say you were correct about anything I read in your post? NO! (or maybe yes!). If ya thought I was refering to your post you could be totally off the mark.  I might be inferring that you were politically correct, or might be making a TOTALLY vacuous statement.

I thnk we as nons need to ask more probing questions in which case we might have a chance to ferret out OUR projection to BPDSO, but if we ignore what we get (or don't get) with probe then we are in denial.

For example, looking back at my exBPDgf (a 10 out of 9 on the BPD scale) when I asked her why she said she loved me, all she could do was say "because I just do".  Now I had projected  all the reasons she should love me when she first issued that remark, but my probe would have dispelled any of what I projected and shown her to be empty and just mirroring my words.

As Nons I think we need to probe remarks layed on us and not read into (project) upon them.

This may serve to unmask the emotionally bankrupt/empty who attempt to ensnare us (BPD or not).



Street.       

[crystal]

Street

Great post!  Ya got me laughin n your first paragraph.  And I think what you say about the probing is really true for me ... .

Looking back there were lots of red flags that I rthought were pale pink... .I can't undo that... .but I really really hope I am learning healthy lessons here.

Crystal

[Silas Pseudonym]

Call me Cleopatra, Queen of 'da Nile... .There may be projections on our part too, but what you described is denial. 

As time goes on we are numbed by the bad behaviour, it seemed more normal the longer I put up with it.

Red flags fade. 

My good friend was involved with an extremely violent multiple PD type... .(she is finally out).  She heard my stories, but continued to say, 'He is my friend & I don't see it... .bla bla... ." 

One of my NPD/BPD's idiosyncrasies was an inability to eat Japanese food without flipping out... .so I had not eaten sushi with him in years.  She (half Japanese) & I had planed to dine together & "allowed" him to join us.  As the "guest" I put her between us at the sushi bar.  NPD/BPD could not take it & started shouting at her, left us there.  She was afraid to speak to him for weeks, has not ever seen him the same since.  He has been violent a few times in 25 years but nothing like what she went through for years.  Her Japanese background had her more offended by the public nature of his outburst?  I, on the other hand, sat through it, with her between us, noisy restaurant, thinking... .oh not again.  It was, to me, almost a joke.  Left me wondering at how numb I had become... .

While I'm on the sushi subject... .that last time, years before, was so funny.  The service was excruciatingly slow & the estranged was ranting... .low level, fairly quiet.  I kept his lid on, but finally he got personal.  I finally lost my temper (the other 3 times he left me alone with the bill) & threw the last of my KIRIN in his face, left, hitting the door with the base of my palm.  I thought no one noticed.  But as I hit the door, one of the 4 young men at the sushi bar sang, with a perfect Chris Issac inflection, "She's Up & Walkin!"  Hilarious!  It's been a favorite ever since!

Silas

[StressedinCleveland]

I think there are certain parallels or rather complimentary features of BPD behavior and non behavior --this is part of the "dance of dysfunction" that we talk about.

• Borderlines distort reality through projection --they see us as carrying out all their bad actions and attitudes.



• Nons distort reality through denial --we see our partner though rose-colored glasses (opposite to what they do to us)

Another complimentary pair of behaviors:

• Borderlines are phonies because they wear a mask of normalcy, become their true disordered self only in the context if intimate relationships.



• Nons are phonies because they walk on eggshells.

[StreetSmart]

Thanks StressedinCleveland for your thoughts on this rather weighty subject.

But again, I think a very importat distinction must be made between the concepts of "projection" and "denial".

Projection: To project parts of oneself (usualy negative as with BPD/positive as with Nons) onto another (in its strictist sense to avoid examining/feeling/taking responsibilty for what s projected).  Example: BPD says to Non (after a 'bout of raging) "You have a destructive temper".

Denial: To negate that which has ocurred either by behavior or verbal expression. Example:

BPD says to Non (after saying verbally abusive remarks) "I never said any such thing" (and to add to this by BPD using projection), "In fact, you were being verbally abusive to me".

Now I believe WE as Nons use projection and denial also! But in a different way, to create positive spin and thus maintain the relationship

 

Thus in the above example: Nons project (to the rage fit) "He/she must be having a hard day" or "Everybody neds to blow off some steam once in awhile".

In the above example Nons use of denial would be: "HE/she wasn't abusive--("you just don't know him/her, he/she is really a nice person".)


I don't know if that clarifies for ya.  Sheeeet! Been reading waaaaaay too much of this psychoanalytic stuff!




Street        

[Bdawn]

Thus in the above example: Nons project (to the rage fit) "He/she must be having a hard day" or "Everybody neds to blow off some steam once in awhile".

In the above example Nons use of denial would be: "HE/she wasn't abusive--("you just don't know him/her, he/she is really a nice person".)

Streetsmart I don't see the difference between these two statements. Both seem to be a way of denying the abuse. Do you rage when you are having a hard day? If not then what exactly is the projection. Saying that someone isn't abusive or simply making excuses for the abuse is the same thing, it's denial.

[StreetSmart]

Bdawn ya ask a good question about the difference between projection and denial.

By my readings on this stuff, Projection is actively taking a negative part of onself and REASSIGNING it to another (moving it away from oneself toward another).

Denial on the other hand, would be to NEGATE that that part existed at all (not a part of self OR another).


Don't know if that makes it clearer for ya, Bdawn.  Please let me know.




Street 

[qkslvrgirl]

I agree with Bdawn's definition in the above example that both were statements of projection. I agree with Streesmart's definition of denial as first posted.

This is how I am applying it to my situation in which my uBDPbf has split me, and I in turn have detached from him: He projects onto me that the e-mails I sent him recently were me "being mean to him".

What my e-mails contained were statements of fact about how his abusive words and behaviors have hurt me... .and also what I expect from him in the way of adult SO behaviors.

I continued being in denial of his illness and inability to behave like a non by projecting onto him my feelinngs of good intension and love.

I even ignored (denied) his statement two weeks ago when he said "I didn't say I still love you". Now as I recall from my logic classes, a double negative is a positive: therefore, he positively doesn't love me anymore.

I continued to deny he said that (said while wearing the typical BPD facial expression of half-closed eyelids with pure evil glaring out)... .until yesterday when he indicated he wanted to have sex.

I realized then that I could not continue to be in denial and pretend that I was willing to have sex with a man who told me he didn't love me. If I had pretended that everything was still fine between us, then that would have perpetuated my denial but compounded it by allowing myself to particiate in my own emotional and sexual rape.

I had reached my "Up and Walkin'" point of total incongruence. No eggshells, no denial.

[qkslvrgirl]

As Nons I think we need to probe remarks layed on us and not read into (project) upon them. This may serve to unmask the emotionally bankrupt/empty who attempt to ensnare us (BPD or not).

Street and Crystal - I also appreciate this weighty discussion because I do not want to have another dysfunctional relationship in the future. What is said here helps me to understand my problems as an enabler to the BPD and other PD's.

Even when I see clearly how empty and emotionally bankrupt my SO is, it is hard to end the dance. I think I am intrigued by the drama and danger... .the challenge.

I like Dave Koz' version of The Dance when he sings the words, "Our lives are better left to chance... .If I'd have known the pain, I would have missed the Dance... .would have missed the Dance."

[StreetSmart]

Dear qkslvrgirl;

Thanks for your input.  As ya recognize both projection and denial are defenses!  Thus there is some degree of overlap between the two processes.

With projection we  as Nons ADD something to the process in our relationship with our BPDSO. As in your bf saying your E-Mails were being "mean" to him, when you were pointing out HIS being mean to you! Your projection would be to say he loves and cares about you and so that is why he is contacting you.  Denial would be the rebuttal on your part to counter someone who says that he is contacting you merely to manipulate you into having sex with him.   

With denial we as Nons SUBTRACT something from the process in our relationship with our  BPDSO.  Your bf is using denial in claiming he never used the words of "still loving you".  Your ignoring a statement would be just that--ignoring. Denying would be for you to claim he NEVER made such statements.   

I guess the bottom line for me is our MISTAKE as Nons is in our believing that OUR SPEAK and BPD SPEAK mean the same thing! Thus, we think we are buying something with a verbal currency that carries the same value here as in OZ! WRONG!

Thus, I think on some level we use projection/denial to "make-up" for this currency devaluation.

Here is, I believe, the current exchange rate through this mornings Oz Bourse:

"I Love You"= 0 Oz dollars

"I Need You"= 0 Oz dollars

"I Miss You" = 0 Oz dollars




Street

[JMR]

As Nons I think we need to probe remarks layed on us and not read into (project) upon them.

This may serve to unmask the emotionally bankrupt/empty who attempt to ensnare us (BPD or not).

Well, it seems to me that for most of us the problem is not finding ways to learn more information, but to get ourselves to react appropriately to the information we already have.  In virtually every story I read, as with my own, there were all sorts of red flags which were seen, and for whatever reason, minimized or ignored. We chose to see what we wanted to see and believe what we wanted to believe, and that was our projection (or denial).

In my case, I think the root reason was fear of embarking on a more challenging relationship, where the possibilities of rejection might be greater or more painful. Let's face it, there's something convenient and gratifying about someone who quickly forms an attachment and seems to see a special value in everything you do.  It's tempting indeed.  The problem, of course, is that you get exactly what you sought -- someone with a superficial attachment to the surface of who you are, and someone who can just as easily lose their affection or attach it to someone else.

[Lydia]

I had this conversation with my T, years ago, b4 my current relationship even began and now that it is ending I can see that what I thought I had resolved with the x, I did in this relationship as well. 

What she said was that because I attempted to do what was right, I believed that others would as well and that I needed to learn that some people don't operate that way.

In other words I projected my moral belief of considering what course of action was right in any given situation I assumed others would as well.  I projected my beliefs onto another and couldn't fathom that they were intentionally doing the harmful things that they were doing.  I sat about looking for the why of their actions, the answer was simple, they wanted what they wanted at any cost and I couldn't see that.  I searched for an underlying answer and spent way too much time trying to understand them.

So yes, I believe that we project good aspects of ourselves onto them just as they project negative aspects of themselves onto us.  I can see now where my ex would be so jealous at times, he thought that I was doing what he was doing.  I wasn't and I assumed that he wasn't because I wouldn't.

[StreetSmart]

Thanks for the posts Lydia,JMR!

Yes, I agree. I guess an even deeper level of examining this dynamic (i.e. Nons use of projection/denial) would be to discern why someone would NOT probe when presented with potentially ambiguous information to attempt, if possible, to obtain some clarification (as we would do freely in most buisness situations!).

The failure to probe certainly could be a red flag to others who see us not do it, and possibly, maybe even a flag to ourselves!  If it were not a flag to ourselves then we are, I submit, most likely using a form of, at least in part, unconscious denial or projection out of our own anxiety at what might/might not be  forthcoming from our BPDSO, if we were to probe!

Man, this gets heavier with each go-around!   




Street