Could it have been me all along?

[PDQuick]

I know this wont be popular, but, I cant help but wonder in light of what I have learned about myself recently, I wonder if it could have been me that was the main problem in this relationship. I was always working, never had alot of time to spend at home with the family. She has always said that I drove her away. I made her lonely and vulnerable to other men. She said that I was not there emotionally. Could she be right? Have any of you ever sought out someone because you were lonely in your relationship? She said that she always felt second to everything else.

I know you guys werent there for the relationship, but could her feelings be real? In a normal way? I know that work-a-holics are hard to live with, but could any of this be true? I have to own my part of the dysfunction, so I am trying to understand her complaints, and reasons. I would appreciate any insight from the ladies especially. What if your husband wasnt home alot, and did not attend most of the childrens games and stuff like that? Would you feel lonely, and if so, would it be lonely enough to make you vulnerable to other men?

[Cyndi]

Sorry to butst your bubble PD, but if that were my situation another man would not be the answer.

Why in the world do some people think going out and sleeping with someone else is the answer to all their problems?  I just don't understand this line of thinking.  How would that solve anything?

I would try to work it out, try to talk and come up with solutions to the problems, not create new ones.


Would have to be comprimise, two healthy people are able to do that.

Why do we even bother having wedding vows anymore?  Nobody even hears them when they recite them.  Maybe they are outdated and need to be changed?

No, it was not your fault.  It there was a problem, she should have discussed it with you and you could have tried to remedy the problem.  Being unfaithful is never the solution to a problem

[elphaba]

All relationships are work PD...and we are each responsible for all of our 50%...

I don't know everything about your relationship, but, I would doubt that you were the "MAIN" problem, your working alot was not the "MAIN" problem...the "MAIN" problem was that you were with a disordered SO...

But, to answer your question:  :)B was rarely around (either not home, in the basement or otherwise "unavailable", and this situation was not that he worked so much (which I would have understood) it was him spending time with music, friends, partying...and still it did not make me run into the arms of another.and yes, it may have made me feel lonely at times, but, I would NEVER have considered turning to other men...because I loved HIM...and I was committed to the relationship.

In my case DB would say I drove him away as well: by asking too much of him (asked NOTHING), not giving him enough freedom (spent thousands on a music studio in the house, quit his job, quit contributing to the household, spent 4-5 nights a week out with friends/music), the stress of him not being an "equal" parent (he only parented when it suited his needs)...in his mind are all the wrongs I have committed...

There was a poem I posted on here a long time ago...telling DB that I was his biggest fan...when I gave it to him, I told him that I did not even need to be the most important thing in his life, I knew that music was...I just wanted to be as important as one song...he could not even do that...

Do I still blame myself for everything failing, yeah...a bit...but, I also know that I could have continued giving 10000% and so could you...it still would have never been enough...You could have spent every minute with her and the kids and it still would NOT have been good enough...they are bottomless pits of need...you could not have filled her...

Stop kicking yourself,  you have looked inward, faced your demons, admitted your part...more than she will ever do...

you are a wonderful guy and any woman who gets to know you and be part of your life, would consider herself lucky to have such a man.

[turtle]

Would you feel lonely, and if so, would it be lonely enough to make you vulnerable to other men?

PDQuick --  I think it is very important to assess what YOUR part was in your relationship with your x. And while there may be some validity to some of her complaints, you can NEVER forget what you were dealing with. Now, keeping the fact that your x is mentally ill in mind, I think it is valuable to look at your part so that you will know for future, HEALTHY relationships. 

To answer the above question, I would have to say yes!   My husband pretty much ignored me for 3-4 years before I got involved with jackass.  H stopped going to family events, would decide not to go to planned functions at the last minute, rarely asked me how I was doing or how my day was.  The only thing he would ever talk about was himself.  And...we hadn't had sex in years!  

When jackass came along, I was starved for some attention.  I got it alright and it nearly killed me.  My big mistake in my marriage was not saying directly to H --- "I feel that you are ignoring me. We need to find a solution to that problem because I am not happy."  Then...if he had no interest in finding a solution, I should've left the relationship instead of blowing it up with a bazooka!

It seems to me that in a healthy relationship things like attendance at children's games, work loads, outside friend and family obligations and so forth are probably discussed.  Perhaps realistic expectations are set and both parties understand what the perimeters of those expectations are.  That's just my guess.  I've never been in a healthy relationship so I don't really know how they work.  It sounds good in theory.

Turtle

[PDQuick]

Thanks for the quick replies. Lets turn the tides for once. It will help me out. Lets say that you dont know me. You are friends with my ex. She complains about me never being available, not putting her and the kids first, and yes, she talked to me about it, and I vowed to change, but didnt, would you understand her actions? I know that Im dealing with a BPD, but when is the line drawn between what is right and what is wrong for either the mentally healthy, or not. I am sure that I am not the most mentally healthy person, and I have done my wrongs, I am just trying to figure out if there is some validity in her complaints.

[elphaba]

Ok, I don't know you...

I would understand her complaints, probably even have some sympathy for the situation, but, as far as turning to other men while in a committed relationship...nope, no way, no how.  The choice there is to either continue to try to work at it together, or end the relationship...I guess I just don't understand "cheating". 

It is not like you were out partying ... you were working ... geez...

Plus, as much as you want to you cannot discount the BPD...it makes any relationship almost impossible...You CAN'T just not factor that in...it affects any/all parts of a relationship.

[spamlady]

Well, PD, I know a lot of women who complain that their husbands are NEVER available to participate in family stuff, but their answer to the problem is not infidelity. That never solves the problem.

It seems to me that you're trying to lay blame here--all the blame...hence your thread title. You've previously figured the blame was all hers. Now, with your new insights, you're wondering if the blame was all yours.

As elphie said, your MAIN problem was probably her mental illness. But you probably had a host of MINOR problems, too--some of them hers and others yours.

Why are you wondering this? Are you thinking about seeing if she wants to get back together? I mean, if the fault was all yours, then you could do better, try harder, be a better partner. Hope you're not even considering this, PD.

If you're wondering for the sake of your future relationships and future happiness, then good for you. To me, it seems that the big question is why you pursued involvement with a mentally disordered lady. Figure that one out, and you'll be ready to move forward with a healthy life.

Hugs,

spam

[csandra]

Wait just a minute.  Ok, you wonder if your actions could have damaged the relationship, drove her away.  The flip side is that if you WOULD have been around more, attended events, paid more attention to her that your relationship would have been salvaged. 

Knowing what we know of her, which of course is what you tell us but hey, no one could make up all that stuff...    Once again, back to the "if only I would have tried harder, made her feel better about herself".  Now, picture yourself doing all of those things...is she really more happy, is she appreciative, is she giving you what YOU need, asking what YOU want ?

Now, ask yourself did you really WANT to be home with her, going to events, sharing her version of life ?  Staying when we should have left, staying when WE were unhappy, yet settling for less...that is where we need to take blame.  It was more comfortable for us to accept second best because that is all we thought we deserved, that is all we knew.

If you were so noncommital, aloof, not involved...do you think your girls would be coming around ?  You were certainly meeting someone's needs.

We ALL could have done better in our past relationship.  There are things that we should make amends for/own up to, if possible, but that doesn't mean that the relationship failed because of our action. It takes two and they let go of the rope(or maybe never had it) long before we did.  Believe it, it's true.

[sucker_no_more]

PDQ, there may well be some validity in her complaints.  If I can give an example from my own life, my ex had two big and recurring complaints about me - one, I didn't do as much housework as she did, and two, I was often quite moody.  You know what?  Both of those issues are accurate.  I really didn't do as much housework as she did.  There are several reasons/excuses for that, some of them good, some (in hindsight) pretty poor.  Similarly, I was also quite "moody".  I had depression for a while, something she's never forgiven me for (as if I did it on purpose...  : ) and I wasn't a bundle of laughs during that period.  Other times, I was often simply desperately unhappy, confused, beaten down and/or just keeping my mouth shut to avoid triggering another rage.

Neither of those things am I particularly proud of and neither of them are mistakes I'm going to make again.  But you know what?  Neither of them justifies or excuses how she treated me.  Moreover, I noticed something about how and when she would raise these complaints.  If she was drunk and acting BPD-like then she'd just tear into me for being generally useless and worthless.  She'd fling anything she could think of at me.  Following morning, when I would complain about how she'd treated me, that was when I got the complaints about me not doing enough housework and being moody.  I could be wrong but I think what was going on was that I would raise a valid complaint about her behaviour while drunk, she'd feel cornered, and so she'd drag out the old "You're lazy and moody" complaints about me to divert the argument away from what she had done and, instead, get me on the defensive.  So we'd spend five minutes with me telling her what I was unhappy about (without any validation whatsoever from her - usually she'd just stay completely silent) and then an hour of her telling me what she was unhappy about (with me either defending myself or apologising) and with the original complaint being swept under the carpet. 

One other interesting (to me) fact - I would periodically get my butt into gear and decide to seriously do some more housework.  Eg, I'd set aside an hour every evening to do stuff once the children were in bed.  I'd do that for a few nights, and then she'd pop up complaining that I was ignoring her and that she really didn't care about how much housework I did.  Or, I'd do something, and she'd then complain about how I'd done it, or how long it'd taken me to do, or when I'd started doing it, or what I should've been doing instead.  I really was darned if I did, and darned if I didn't.

I've no doubt that she genuinely wasn't impressed by my behaviour at times and there is a fair degree of justification for that.  In hindsight, I'm not impressed by my behaviour about certain things.  But I think those complaints were a lot more to do with creating a smoke-screen than with anything that really seriously bugged her.  It was almost like she needed to find something she could throw at me.  Her behaviour since we split is continuing in that vein, too.

I think my point here is that while I'd say it's well worth while finding your own place in what happened and coming to terms with the mistakes you made, this needs to be tempered by thoughts about how proportionate her reaction was to them.  I'd say it's also worth spending some time thinking about what you did right.

  SNM 

[PDQuick]

SNM, thank you for the slap into reality. You nailed it perfectly.

[eastmeetswest]

We should fall in love with the person without wanting to change.  Did you work hard before the relationship?  Were you driven before?  Did you always work long hours or did it change?  More importantly were you there emotionally?  Everyone has faults - were you a jackass?  Or, a regular, hardworking slog?

Many perople work hard for their dream and are supported by their partner - that's what helps to make them successful.  They aren't torn down at home for pursuing their dream.  Did Coretta Scott King dissuade her husband? 

And yep, the answer is never in the arms or bed of someone else.  That's their crap not your's.

When I was around more you know what, my x wasn't any happier.  She is ill.  She can't be happier.  It is not my fault.

[johnfl]

Quick,

I wish my ex was differnet too.  I really do.  The bottom line is that she didn't appreciate or respect me.  No one will ever be enough.  Every wall that is climbed over is followed by another wall and another and another. 

Time to cut the losses once and for all and move on.  I know its hard.  Second guessing is part of the pattern.

[crystal]

PD,

I'm sure you screwed up. I'm sure you could have been a better partner. I am sure didnt give her as much time as she wanted. 

That happens in every relationship.

But DO YOU REMEMBER HOW SHE TREATED YOU? 

[crystal]

WOOPS, HIT THE SEND TO SOON

I have read a lot of you posts, and I never read anything that sounded like respect, caring, giving, generosity from her.  She is mentally disordered. Period.  She is incapable of having a mature relationship.  Her personality disorder was the major, unfixable problem.

Why are you doubting this now?

Crystal

[Jewls]

I think my point here is that while I'd say it's well worth while finding your own place in what happened and coming to terms with the mistakes you made, this needs to be tempered by thoughts about how proportionate her reaction was to them.  I'd say it's also worth spending some time thinking about what you did right.

SNM, right on target.

Jewls

[sucker_no_more]

Quick,

I wish my ex was differnet too.  I really do.  The bottom line is that she didn't appreciate or respect me.  No one will ever be enough.  Every wall that is climbed over is followed by another wall and another and another. 

That rings so many bells for me it's untrue...  The feeling that, whatever I did, it was never enough, is something that defines my whole relationship with my ex.  Repeatedly she made me feel unworthy, useless, and downright abnormal.  Sure, there are bits of the "me" I was then that I have since changed but I really do feel that even if I'd realised that at the time and done something about it then she'd just come up with something new to slam me with.  I really do feel that she needed me to be imperfect so that she could use that as an excuse to divert attention away from her own faults.  And that, I think, is the defining difference between her and I.  I'll take criticism - particularly from someone I love - and I'll try to do something about it.  I don't always do a good job of dealing with it, but I do try.  By comparison, she'll regard any criticism as a personal attack and as such she will ALWAYS raise the stakes and attack back. 

In her case it's a family trait.  Watching her whole family together is an education in how dysfunctional families work.  Nobody's feelings about anything - no matter how raw - are sacrosanct, nothing is off-limits, and if you feel like you're being attacked then do not, under any circumstances whatsoever, show that you're hurt - instead, raise the stakes and attack back.  That really is how they interact.  And yet, according to my ex, that's how "normal" families work... 

I'll admit that my family isn't "normal" as (for various reasons) our interactions are skewed somewhat by an over-cautious approach to raising contentious subjects.  It's got healthier as we've all got older, but it's still there.  I could well accept that my family's interactions are at one end of the continuum of "nice vs nasty" and my ex's at the other.  Doesn't make either one right.  But at least my family doesn't leave people feeling wounded and resentful. 

  SNM

[gambaru]

I'm sorry, PDQuick, isn't this the same woman who demanded you buy her a $50,000 vehicle, a new house, a horse ranch...etc., etc., etc?  Did you not purchase vehicles for both of her children as well?

And you were supposed to provide all of these things, how, exactly?

By...oh...working insanely long hours, perhaps?

[garyw]

Your just now getting around to this part of the road

I for a long time thought the same. Tried to carry the whole load for all of what happened. As much as I tried some things just wouldn't fit in my pocket.

I was gone a lot of the time. Sometimes for a month at a time in another country.

If we convinced ourselves that it was all our fault,that would give us the closure we never got for sure but ya know what... If we did it all over again and changed the pants we wore then even a thousand times...the same darn thing would have happened.

Then we would be posting here that maybe if we werent around them so much...maybe we smothered them too much ...maybe maybe maybe maybe. :P

[blondie]

I cant think of a reason for infedility. Not one.

When you are married, you are commited and tied to that person. Period. You work for and protect that love, commitment, and what you equally share.

A husband working overtime is a husband trying to succeed and is making more money for the things you both want, need, or to save.

Bah on you being the cause of her infidelity. Just Bah.

If you had been spending that time in a bar, picking up other women, yeah, surely she would have had a reason to do what she did.

PDQ, dont blame yourself. Dont beat yourself up and try to continue to make excuses for her actions, please.

She is what she is. She did what is within symptoms of a BPD. You were just trying to make a better life for both of you.

And I'll bet she gladly spent the money you were making?

Hubby worked swing shift for a while. So did I. At one time there was a space of 7 days if we timed it just right we passed on the highway and could wave at eachother. Did either of us cheat? NO. We were working for us and the family. It was tough but we did it . We didnt cheat, we didnt love less, we took it as part of our job and what we had to do.

How shallow to blame the other for a reason for cheating. IMHO, there is none. Period.

Please, think more of yourself and use all you have learned.

Whatever excuses she needed she thought up and blamed you...lordy, you probably caused her hangnails and ingrown toenails, too.

Just dont accept the blame for this too. You didnt earn it.

Pat

[NewLifeforHGG]

I don't want to paint the picture that we are all angels here. We are all human and probably made some mistakes in our relationship.

BUT that does not justify mistreatment. Maybe you did work long hours but YOU WERE WORKING!

Did she not benefit from your working long hours? Did you spend all of your money on hookers and drugs? Did you leave her in the lap of poverty while you lived the high life?

NO.

Make no mistake they know how to twist a grain of truth into a bushel of crap.

fact-you worked long hours and maybe a little too much sometimes. OK. You learned from this and next time you won't.

fact-she slept with someone else because she wanted to. You can't drive a person into someone else's arms. They make the choice. She could have made many other choices. Marriage counseling around this issue. Separating saying she wasn't sure she could commit any longer. So many choices.

In a healthy relationship workaholic behaviors are an issue that can pose problems. It can be lonely to be left alone.

But in a healthy relationship people talk.

She has BPD so any reaction on her part was not going to be healthy.

I kissed another man during my marriage and it was wrong. But my H is abusive and mentally ill. I made the choice and I take full responsibility. This marriage made me more vulnerable certainly but I made the choice. Cap'n didn't drag me by gun point and force me to kiss this other man. Neither did you 'make' her do it.

BPs never take any responsibility for anything.

[LAPDR]

PD;

I believe you and I had a very common background with actions that our BPDxw’s did to us. Towards the end of the relationship and after it ended I also had periods of second thoughts about calling it quits, self doubts and questions if I had did everything I could of done to keep the marriage together and make it work. In looking back I did many of the things she demanded that I do to give her more time. I also worked long hours, traveled in my jobs at times and provided a good home for her and our children. I also coached baseball, attended all the kid’s soccer, basketball, track and band events, was chief maintenance man of the household and even became the cook and laundry chief too. It was never enough, I had to give up reading the newspaper, watching news on TV, give up my friends, remove myself from community social organizations and even isolate myself from my own family to pamper her needs. The reward was not her appreciation of what I kept changing and doing for her was her taking more time away from home to be with her so call friends, mostly other men. Her selfish needs were more important to her than that of her family’s.

Today I know I didn’t make a mistake, I just saved myself. I would venture to say most people have after thoughts about if they tried hard enough and haven’t made a mistake. It’s just part of the journey and as soon as you get over the next hill you forget about it and know you are continuing forward for a better life for yourself.

Keep walking forward and don’t look back.

LA

[JoannaK]

Stop talking to her.  She screws with your head too much, PD.

[Modron]

PD, that is a great question. A great question not because answering it will solve anything, but because it puts the focus on the one thing you can do something about: you.

For me it raises another question, "How would I want to be if this was another woman in another time and place?"

Well now, more and more questions keep popping into my head, so I'm going to stop there for now.

Mod

[TonyC]

ok quick...

so you feel you worked to much supporting and making a living...so its your fault she sought comfort in another man...

you got to be kidding me...

there is two people in a realtionship... you agree that you two are exclusive .. or married...

its straight up cheating... or lack of effort to deal with the realities of someone trying to give someone a nice lifestyle...

mary used to say i worked to much...left her alone...yes 80 hrs a week , and everyone in my life was taken care of...but me...same for you...

mary did not work  1. she could not work with women

                           2. she was and still is seeking dissability for BPD

                                   from the state...

                            3. she did not want to

so she bartended two nights a week...in places i would never go to full blown sh*&holes...

but she had a car ... bills paid...and a life because i gave to her...

you and i should not take any responsiblity for feeling of not being available...

her choices are her choices ...

ok you worked too much... so its ok to go to another man?

we survived a full blown boredeline relationship... if that wasnt an excuse for goin to another woman ...there is none...

sure we have our short comings ...everyone does...

but we didnt run ...till it became sink or swim

im not  done... i need a cigarette..

i will be back

tony

[TonyC]

ok im back...

you used the word vunerable...

how that work...going on a 3 day buisness trip could leave her vunerable...would that be okay?

sorry its just not flyin quick...

a relationship is a relationship...lets turn this...

what did she do to make you more available... or have more time to donate to the family... she work ... , bust her ass to keep the money coming in?

and if she did...lets say she worked nights... would you now become vunerable to other woman when your sitting home?or would you have the house cleaned and the kids in bed when she got home?

i bet you  would have everything nice at home... while she worked

thats how its supposed to be mutual support... and understanding

for situations that arise...

sorry if im a little rough here , i will probably get a warning...

but we have travelled this mother fU*&ing road to long... to blame our selves...

i say ourselves because we travel this path together... i  can see you on the yellow brick road out of oz... right now im running back to get you...pick you up and carry you the rest of the way on my back if i have to... except im tired quick, real tired ...

tony

[bewildered2]

PDQuick,

Are you wondering what you did wrong or are you wondering if she is a Borderline?

Presumably you have read the DSM and she checks at least 5 of the criteria?

If so, then nothing you could have done would have saved the relationship.

Anything you did or would have done would have been insufficient.

Even if you had given up your job and spent all your time with her she still would have been unhappy, she still would have taken it out on you, and eventually she still would have gone off with someone else. She would just give different reasons for doing so.

Don't torture yourself with these questions. If she is a Borderline then it was doomed from the start.

B2

[turtle]

Even if you had given up your job and spent all your time with her she still would have been unhappy, she still would have taken it out on you, and eventually she still would have gone off with someone else. She would just give different reasons for doing so.

Don't torture yourself with these questions. If she is a Borderline then it was doomed from the start.

Exactly what he said.

PD -- you've got to give that little hamster in your head a rest! Let him off of that wheel for a minute. He's so tired, he's starting to make stuff up now.   

Turtle

[johnfl]

we have travelled this mother fU*&ing road to long...

AMEN.  I couldn't agree more. 

[crystal]

PD -- you've got to give that little hamster in your head a rest! Let him off of that wheel for a minute. He's so tired, he's starting to make stuff up now. 

double amen to that!

PD--you DO need a vacation from yourself. Just dont take HER along! 

I think TONYC has your plane ticket at the gift shop. 

Crys.

[friendofafriend]

Hi PDQ,

You've gotten some great insight from the other posters here...  I agree that you can't blame yourself for everything that went wrong in your relationship.  I also agree that the only person you can change is yourself, and that if you did make some mistakes during that relationship, you'll simply repeat those same mistakes in future relationships unless you do take an honest look inward and see what you could do differently next time.  We don't want to get into the same black and white thinking that our BPD partners fall into and say that EVERYTHING they have so say, every complaint they have about us, is a bunch of hooey.  There are often some nuggets of truth buried underneath all the chaos and hatred...  Don't take blame that doesn't belong to you - there's nothing to be gained from doing that.  But I do applaud you for trying to understand what role you may (or may not) have played in the negative dynamics that existed there.  That's a healthy and mature thing to do and will help you in future relationships...   

- Friend

[MGMom]

PDQuick,

It wasn't you, hon.  My husband used to travel all the time.  I was alone more than I was with him.  One day I went out to a garden nursery, and I ran into an old boyfriend from college.   He was very complimentary and flirtatious.  You know what?  It felt great because my husband was never home, and I felt neglected.  Do you know what I did?  I went home and told my husband what had happened.  I told him that I was willing to make whatever lifestyle changes we needed to make to get him home.  We had to move out of state so that he could take a job where he could be home.  That is what a healthy woman does when she is lonely.  She goes to her husband and says, "Let's work this out."  Then, she keeps saying it until he listens.  She does not cheat on him.

This was not your fault.  She is not healthy, and an unhealthy mind does not behave rationally, PDQuick.  If she couldn't handle this difficulty in the road, she would not have handled any other obstacle.  We make a promise to our spouses, PD.  We promise to keep fighting even when we are tired of fighting for a marriage.  She did not keep her promise.

Be blessed.  Someone out there is praying to meet you, PD.  She will be a blessed lady when she does. 

[PDQuick]

I can see that it is not all my fault. Sure, I had a part in it. But, in light of recent events, she cannot make good, healthy, rational decisions. She acts on impulse, with no reguard to who, or what is affects. She does what, who, how she wants, when she wants, then spins a web of lies to cover her actions. She does know right from wrong, thus the lies, but she has no impulse control. She has no patience. She has no moral code, no value system. And most of all, she has no respect for anything in her life. I see this all so clearly now.

[elphaba]

Glad to see the fog is clearing for you PD, it is so strange that one little contact with them can throw us into a complete tailspin and make us question EVERYTHING including our own judgement and sanity...

This is again why the recomendation is NC, because they have proven their abiltiy to twist our thinking to such a degree.

I mean hell, of course I'd like to think that DB and I could have polite social contact, we've known each other for over 16 years, we were friends for at least 5 before we started seeing each other...but, I also know that his mind is so twisted, his thinking so skewed, his intentions so self serving that it would be impossible and I would only end up hurt in the process.

I'm glad you are getting back to thinking clearly...

:-*

[TonyC]

well if it was us...was it the  soulmates before us ...and it wil be the soulmates after us...

you know its a cycle...next victim

i had told mary a numerous times...she continually makes bad decisions...not just about us... about her kids, her friends and her family...

im sure...the case is the same for most of our s/os

they think for today ...they dont think for tommarrow

continuous bad decisions...

tony

[csandra]

I can see that it is not all my fault. Sure, I had a part in it. But, in light of recent events, she cannot make good, healthy, rational decisions. She acts on impulse, with no reguard to who, or what is affects. She does what, who, how she wants, when she wants, then spins a web of lies to cover her actions. She does know right from wrong, thus the lies, but she has no impulse control. She has no patience. She has no moral code, no value system. And most of all, she has no respect for anything in her life. I see this all so clearly now.

I could have written that word for word about my stbx.  Your ex sounds very NPD.  I have found that it is best to not be anywhere near them when we are vulnerable.  I headed off a few emails last week, yesterday I fell off the NC wagon(so to speak) and await the wreckage.

We must be doing something right...we wake up every morning and they're not there.

[bewildered2]

I can see that it is not all my fault. Sure, I had a part in it. But, in light of recent events, she cannot make good, healthy, rational decisions. She acts on impulse, with no reguard to who, or what is affects. She does what, who, how she wants, when she wants, then spins a web of lies to cover her actions. She does know right from wrong, thus the lies, but she has no impulse control. She has no patience. She has no moral code, no value system. And most of all, she has no respect for anything in her life. I see this all so clearly now.

You got it.

Her feelings dictate her actions. And her feelings reflect her distorted perception of life. And she is overly impulsive because the part of her brain that exercises control over her impulses is defective. It is all a recipe for disaster in terms of having a relationship. Which is exactly what she got. And will have again, and again, and again. And she will likely never learn. A sad sad case. For you though it can be different...

B2   

[crystal]

PD--glad you are back out of oz. And really glad it was a short trip.  Watch out though. She will be back and you are still vulnerable! 

Glad to see the fog is clearing for you PD, it is so strange that one little contact with them can throw us into a complete tailspin and make us question EVERYTHING including our own judgement and sanity...

So true, Elphie!

Crystal

[JoannaK]

I'm glad you are coming out of the fog, PDQ, but I want to go back, as I didn't answer you very completely earlier... and my words aren't just directed to you, but at others (especially men) in similar situations.

I wonder if it could have been me that was the main problem in this relationship. I was always working, never had a lot of time to spend at home with the family. She has always said that I drove her away. I made her lonely and vulnerable to other men. She said that I was not there emotionally. Could she be right? Have any of you ever sought out someone because you were lonely in your relationship? She said that she always felt second to everything else.

I know you guys were there for the relationship, but could her feelings be real? In a normal way? I know that workaholics are hard to live with, but could any of this be true? I have to own my part of the dysfunction, so I am trying to understand her complaints, and reasons. I would appreciate any insight from the ladies especially. What if your husband wasnt home at, and did not attend most of the children's games and stuff like that? Would you feel lonely, and if so, would it be lonely enough to make you vulnerable to other men? 

 

Lets turn the tides for once. It will help me out. Lets say that you dont know me. You are friends with my ex. She complains about me never being available, not putting her and the kids first, and yes, she talked to me about it, and I vowed to change, but didnt, would you understand her actions? I know that Im dealing with a BPD, but when is the line drawn between what is right and what is wrong for either the mentally healthy, or not. I am sure that I am not the most mentally healthy person, and I have done my wrongs, I am just trying to figure out if there is some validity in her complaints.   

 

First of all, I don't think I could have been friends with someone that is as selfish and money-grubbing as your ex appears to be.  All of my long-term friends have been stable, decent sorts, who pay their own bills.. or are good wives to the men who pay the bills. 

I've always thought that, if the guy is working to pay the bills, the woman should shut up.  Unless she thinks he is with other women, frequenting strip clubs, or out partying in bars, or just getting drunk somewhere, she should shut up and let him be. 

If the guy is hanging out in strip clubs, chasing other women, or just getting drunk somewhere, then she should either make it clear that he's got to get his act together or make plans to dump him.  But no whining if she thinks he really is working. 

Personally, I was thrilled when my ex was gone when my son was really little.  He made a decent salary back then and I was able to be home with my little son.  When he was gone, the house was peaceful and I didn't have to listen to him whine and complain.  I really enjoyed it when he took business trips, which he unfortunately did rarely.  Emotional needs?  I had friends and relatives!  I wasn't going to risk the relationship with my exh (which wasn't that horrible back then) by chasing some man...  We were both faithful to each other!  Sexual needs?  He wasn't gone that much, and I could certainly manage a week without sex if he was out of town, good heavens! 

I don't know how often you were gone, how many hours you worked, but my sense is that she was just looking for excuses.

Now about the kids.  Sorry, PDQ, these aren't your kids.  You really didn't owe them a lot, not unless you adopted them.  I never expected my ex to be at every T ball and soccer game...  He came to what he could.  My expectations of my bf, my son's kinda stepdad, are even lower.  He went to his graduation, to his senior class play, and to a couple of school music recitals.  We were going to go to one of his soccer games this year when my bf was available (not working), but it got rained out.  We were both disappointed.  If my bf had attended 5-6 of my son's events per year over the time we have been together, that would be enough.  Again, it would depend on 1:  Why you weren't there; and 2:  How often these events occurred.   

If you weren't there because you were drunk or chasing women, then she would have a right to be upset.  If you were working, then she should have shut up.  If she expected you to be at events every week, she was asking too much.  If she was expecting you to be at 1 or 2 events per month, that would be reasonably reasonable.

But about her emotional needs?  Didn't she have kids?  Didn't she have friends and family?  How in the world did she have time to pursue men when she had a bunch of kids around? 

If she were my friend, and you weren't around because you were working and she had a good lifestyle because you were working, I would have told her to count her blessings and not mess up a good thing. 

[criticalmass06]

I know this wont be popular, but, I cant help but wonder in light of what I have learned about myself recently, I wonder if it could have been me that was the main problem in this relationship.NO YOU WERE NOT-  I was always working, never had alot of time to spend at home with the family. She has always said that I drove her away. I made her lonely and vulnerable to other men. She said that I was not there emotionally. Could she be right? NO THIS IS BPD AND YOUR STILL THINKING IN THE FOG- YOU KNOW THIS

Have any of you ever sought out someone because you were lonely in your relationship?Normal reaction to want to talk to somebody co herent, some one to boucne things off of, to act phyiscaly with someone is wrong but it happens in un healthy realtionships, 

She said that she always felt second to everything else. BPD MANIPULATION AGAIN

I know you guys werent there for the relationship, but could her feelings be real? NO SHE MARRIED ANOTHER GUY NAD HOVVERED YOU ON THE WEDDING DAY-REMEMBER In a normal way?

I know that work-a-holics are hard to live with, but could any of this be true? NO- THIS IS LIFE, YOU HAD TO WORK TO KEEP THE REATIONSHIP GOING WITH MONEY,JUST LIKE I DID, JUST LIKE TONYC DID, IF WE DIDNT- WE WOULD OF FELL A LONG TIME AGO- THIS IN ITS SELF TOOK A TOLL ON ALL 3 OF US, THIS IN IT SELF WAS IMBEDDED IN OUR HEADS - THE FOG AND IT TAKES A WHILE TO GET OUT OF PHYSICAL AND MENTALLY- ITS NOT NORMAL TO HAVE TO WORK THIS HARD TO LOVE SOMEONE- ITS NOT HEALTHY -ITS NOT RIGHT- THATS WY WE LEFT

I have to own my part of the dysfunction- FOG, FEAR GUILT OBLIGATION- YOUR NOT GOING TO GET CLOSURE WITH HER SO GIVE IT TO YOUR SELF

so I am trying to understand her complaints,STOP THIS MADNESS QUICK- LET GO and reasons.SHE IS MENTALL ILL- WE WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND

I would appreciate any insight from the ladies especially. What if your husband wasnt home alot, and did not attend most of the childrens games and stuff like that? Would you feel lonely, and if so, would it be lonely enough to make you vulnerable to other men? THIS IS BS- SOME PEOPLE ARE  LUCKY ENOUGH TO DO ALL THIS, SOME PEOPLE IN HEALTHY REALTIONSHIPS WITH A HEALTHY PARTNER WORK TOGETHER TO MAKE IT WORK, SHE DID NOT, MINE DID NOT, TONYC'S DID NOT, STOP BALMING YOURSELF AND TAKING ON HER FAULTS AND PROBLEMS- THERE ARE HERS NOT YOURS, KEEP THESE GOOD THOUGHTS FOR SOMEONE DESERVING DOWN THE ROAD

Thanks for the quick replies. Lets turn the tides for once. It will help me out. Lets say that you dont know me. CANT I DO KNOW YOU- STOP LOOKING FOR REASONS TO SABATOGE YOUR REASONS FOR ANSWERS

You are friends with my ex. She complains about me never being available, not putting her and the kids first, and yes, she talked to me about it, and I vowed to change, but didnt, would you understand her actions? NO I WOULDNT, I ARE ANY ONE ELSE WOULD SEE HER AS A CONSTANT COMPLAINER AND NOT LOOK AT IT THIS DEEP, DO YOU LOOK AT OTHER PEOPLES REALTIONSHIPS THIS DEEP, BESIDES THIS BOARD- IF YOU WERE HANGING OUT WITH A FRIEND AND NEVER HAD A BPD REATIONSHIP WOULD YOU GIVE THIS THOUGHT/GUESTION A LOT OF TIME OR WOULD YOU SAY- GOD SHE COMAPLAINS A LOT, I AM GLAD I DONT HAVE HER PROBLEMS AND THAT WOULD BE IT.

I know that Im dealing with a BPD,THEN STOP QUESTIONING YOUR SELF

but DO ME A FAVOR FOR YOUR SELF, i HAVE DID THIS BEFORE AND IT WORKS TO CHANGE A FORE THOUGHT

TAKE BUT OUT OF ALL YOUR EXCUSES , WRTING, AND THOUGHTS-TRY THAT AND SEE HOW THAT WILL CHANGE YOUR WAYS OF MAKEING EXCUSES FOR YOUR SELF AND FOR HER TAKE BUT OUT AND IT WILL HELP YOU MOVE ON

when is the line drawn between what is right and what is wrong for either the mentally healthy, or not. I am sure that I am not the most mentally healthy person, and I have done my wrongs,

I am just trying to figure out if there is some validity in her complaints. STOP, THIS IS THE FOG MY FREIND

Quick, my freind you are ok, this relationship has past and you open up some old wounds form your own past and now there are crossing over and back into your old past realtionship.

This time is for you, ask your self for a little mental vacation take the summer off, breath my friend relax, and trust in your self that the futre will be bright and you will be AOK.

If its sunny outside, it sunny and if its raining its raining- what I mean is look at today for today and take it in- dont look to deep.

Enjoy your time, you are free from her.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{quick}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

start living again.


CM

[Julzpeace]

Hi PDQuick~

I am new here, but please allow me to voice my opinion...for whatever it's worth.

My soon-to-be-ex husband is Bipolar/BPD and we've been married almost 11 years.  He is a Commercial Fisherman-(PERFECT career for a Bipolar/BPD!) and because of his career, he is away MUCH of the time.  When we first met and up until a few years ago, he would go on 2 - 3 week Fishing Trips.  I LOVED the time and space!  Now, did I ever get lonely? Yeah, sometimes.  Did I ever go out? Yeah, sometimes.  Did I ever get the urge to find comfort in someone else's arms? Yeah, sometimes.  Did I go there? No.

I left him about a month ago and have been living with my parents.  All this time, doing much reflecting, I realize that our time apart-when he was at sea, is what probably kept me with him for so long!  Since 2004, he has been "day fishing," and is home within 24-30 hours of leaving the house.  I look back and see that when he was "trip fishing," for weeks at a time, it would take me sometimes up to a full week to get my house back in order, my head back on straight-(whatever THAT is!) and to find true peace and comfort in my home.

I agree that noone is perfect, and that we all have to work HARD to make a marriage and a relationship work, but when you are giving 100%, and your partner is only giving maybe 6%, who's to blame?  I've been doing much reading and research about this mental illness, and I am amazed at how many stories are so similar-some even IDENTICAL to mine!

Remember- they can be ABSOLUTELY CHARMING, BEAUTIFUL AND INTELLIGENT!  They have already bruised and crushed our egos, & we keep double-guessing ourselves, and probably always will, to some level; "What could I have done to make things different?  What could I have done to make it work?"  Etc.

Peace,

Julz

[bewildered2]

PDQuick,

Please be careful not to fall into the trap of double and triple guessing yourself and re-examining things again and again to see how you could have been wrong and she could have been right.

Remember that their logic, although fundamentally flawed, ain't bad! Her logic convinced her that she was right to do what she did, and if not, she convinced herself afterwards that it wasn't her fault but yours. She acts on her feelings, and her perception is screwed up, so there is no way she can be right. But because she believes what she says, and is no doubt intelligent, she can be very convincing, and  certainly was while you were together.

As Joanna often says, Adolf Hitler had his reasons for exterminating 7,000,000 Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, and other "sub-humans" (his contention, not mine). And he convinced a nation of educated and civil western europeans that his view was right. Was he right? Or was he just very convincing because he believed what he was saying? Do you think his perception might have been a little off too?

My ex-whacko told me, in fact demanded, that I feel the same way about, and act toward her daughter in the same way as I felt and acted toward my own daughter. I could see her point. It is what she wanted and expected, at that moment in time. But it was a preposterous thing to expect, and more incorrectly, to demand. The child had a father whom she saw more than 50% of her time and to whom she was very very attached. The child was overtly hostile towards me a lot of the time, probably out of a sense of loyalty to her Dad, all understandable. Looking back I see that it was yet another example of distorted thinking, which turned into a demand, then an ultimatum, followed by a threat to screw other men if I didn't comply. Stuck in the FOG, in Oz, as I was, it was difficult to see the wood from the trees. Now, of course, I see how ridiculously screwed up the whole thing was, but I didn't then, because I was flat out trying to please her, which is an impossible task.

Remember to do Joanna's exercise; write down examples of her behavior that caused you grief. Keep adding to it as you get more flashbacks. Trust me, the list will be surprisingly long. Now, each incident, in isolation, you might think, "that ain't too bad, why did I make such a fuss?". But when you add it all up you will see a pattern of one crazy demand after another, with increasing frequency over time. And their is no way to have pleased her, to have kept her happy, and in any case, it's not your job to make her happy! That's her problem. But by giving a little ground each time, to keep the peace, you were eroding natural boundaries and giving away your personal power and space, until in the end there was probably very little left.

This bs about how it was all your fault that she went off with other men because you were busy working is...bs!

Tonyc's ex-nutmare was "forced" to go drinking every night because he wasn't home (he was at work bringing home the bacon as she didn't work). So it was ll his fault too? And now that she is with another man, is it his fault too that she is still drinking? Absolutely pathetic and sad that these people can be so delusional.

These sick people, with their self-destructive and abusive behavior and poor impulse control and distorted perception of the world around them, will blame everyone but themselves for their disgusting and hurtful actions, and anyone who buys their crap is either in love or crazy too.

You're out of Oz. You know about BPD. It exists. It is real. It is a severe mental illness. Try and remember this when doubts creep into your mind. Borderlines can be very very clever. Look how many obviously clever people here (Nons) get taken in by them and waste years of their lives on them to no avail.

The short answer to your question, "could it have been me all along?" is NO.

b2                           

[criticalmass06]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Quick }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

where are you my friend and how are you doing ?

CM

[PDQuick]

Im here. Im ok, been talking to her a little in the last few days, but I think that stopped this morning when she pissed me off with her false sense of entitlement. Everything is always about her. Her her her her her. I need things as well, and she will not address anything so, BOOT. She can go back to her husband where she belongs, and try to get him to entertain her. Im so tired of the lies, manipulations, bullsht, entitlement, no boundary setting, back stabbing, lie spewing, self wallowing, please help ME out cause I got myself in a bind, hit_. Im good! No harm, no foul. Nothing but wine and roses here in hell.

[PDQuick]

Ok, that sounded cynical. So be it! Im tired of it!

[criticalmass06]

That sounded healthy and truthfule.

we , you all of us have been there, I think your good

enough is enough


you feel it now in your last post and said what needed to be said.

remenber she is a child in an adult body...

hang in there quick,

you are all lot stonger then you give your self credit for sometimes.


CM

[crystal]

Hey PD-

I think you sound ok. Better angry than confused. Better cynical than sucked in.

They do mess with our minds don't they. Gald you,re not getting twisted in your thinking!

Take care of yourself-you are worth it!

Crystal

[JoannaK]

I agree with crystal, better angry than confused...  But STOP TALKING TO HER! 

You also need to set those boundaries, PDQ, and keep them up there!

[johnfl]

Quick,

I have been worried about you the last 2 days.  I knew something was up.  I'm lucky as EX doesn't re-engagement.  I believe that NC is the only way to go and it will ultimately be that way for you.  That said, maybe you did need another bite of the sandwich...

It was only when I realized that my ex would not stop at any length to frustrate me.  Moreso, she took great pride in seeing me suffer.  That's all that's going on here with you.  You've supported that sense of entitlement for what 13 years?  She wont let you go if she can destroy you first...or you can go back and kiss her ass some more...Sorry, you know I am your friend and care about you.  I just had to say that b'c in their mind that's all they want adulation...worship...worship... :

[MGMom]

I agree with crystal, better angry than confused...  But STOP TALKING TO HER! 

You also need to set those boundaries, PDQ, and keep them up there!

Ditto.  Amen! 

PDQuick,  you need to tell her to lose your number.  Develop a mantra!  I  hereby challenge you to chant "I deserve better" every day when you wake up.  LOL    Sweetie,  she wants to keep her claws in you because she wants her cake and Quick too.  I can tell that you are such a great guy.  Please remember that someone is out there who is kind and loving and not manipulative.  She is praying to meet you.  You deserve her--not this loon.  No matter what weakness you have, she will love you and be willing to work with you to work it out.  Quit worrying about what you may or may not have done to contribute to the problems.  If a woman loves a man, she will do whatever it takes to work through their problems.  You don't have to be perfect and do everything she wants.  Honey, I get mad at my man all the time.  I pout and fuss and preach all the time.  He isn't perfect, but neither am I, and I love him.  So, quit worrying about not being perfect in the relationship, dear one.  Remember, you have lots of women on here who think you are just wonderful.     That alone is a testimony.  LOL

[turtle]

PDQuick --

She needs to be talking to her HUSBAND, not you.

If you can't stop talking to her (which you absolutely should,) tell her to take it to her HUSBAND and leave you the hell alone.

Turtle

[NewLifeforHGG]

I missed you on the board. I am so sorry you are struggling right now.

PD you have to cut the ties. You have to.

I take it she is married now? She is her H's problem. Is he a decent guy? Do you know if he is?

But then what does it matter really.

You wouldn't want your wife to do to you what she is doing to him. Don't be a party to her deceitful behavior.

It is time to move on and go completely NC. No going back. You have to move on. You have to. You need to reclaim your life and open your hear to someone who deserves you.

[johnfl]

Yes cutting the ties is one of the hardest things to do.  I know it is and still is for me.  Even though I haven't spoken with her in over 4 weeks, its not easy.  I think the idea of NC forever is hard to digest.  So, what I am trying is thinking about it 1 day at a time.  Then one day you just wont care.   Sometimes, when we try to imagine NEVER EVER..its gets a little overwhelming...try and break it down to a day at a time. 

Hope you're feeling better today.

[NHBeachBum]

Im here. Im ok, been talking to her a little in the last few days, but I think that stopped this morning when she pissed me off with her false sense of entitlement. Everything is always about her. Her her her her her. I need things as well, and she will not address anything so, BOOT. She can go back to her husband where she belongs, and try to get him to entertain her. Im so tired of the lies, manipulations, bullsht, entitlement, no boundary setting, back stabbing, lie spewing, self wallowing, please help ME out cause I got myself in a bind, hit_. Im good! No harm, no foul. Nothing but wine and roses here in hell.

PDQ,

Sorry to read about your struggles lately. I couldn't agree with others that have posted to stay NC. Joanna couldn't have hit the nail on the head: with her personality, why would you even WANT to CONSIDER a friendship with her?

I occassionally think like you did & try to figure out how much responsibility I had in the relationship & the outcome. A while ago I spent time analyzing what responsibility I had in the failure. I'm a logical guy so I just go through the facts.

1. I had a piece in every single relationship that I've been involved with as did the other person.

2. My exBPDgf has a serious illness that she had long before she met me. I didn't cause it & it had a HUGE impact into how SHE decided to treat me. It's not my responsibility. I remember writing her e-mails trying to get her to see that ANY of her exbf's or hubby would have reacted the SAME way to HER actions.

3. Next I look at both my past history & her past history. How have my relationships ended? How has she treated her past BF's? How have I treated my exes? How have they treated me? If you notice a clear pattern, at some point it shows what each person is like.

4. So now do the math again: Has she treated many other's very badly in the past? Isn't she really projecting HER issues yet again onto you? Is there a pattern of her abusing others?

5. Keep doing the math: Ask yourself why YOU are choosing to allow her to try to control your emotions, subtly abuse you by projecting onto you, etc.

6. Final math question of the day: Is this REALLY someone that you want to have ANY kind of relationship with?

In my own situation, I answered those questions a long time ago. I already wasted too much time analyzing. It always came down to a great big "NO" for #6.

No one can answer any of them for you. If you really feel like you need to re-analyze it, just walk through it again. It shouldn't take very long to come to a conclusion.

I hope you can let it go again. It just ain't your fault. No matter WHAT she says, how she slices & dices it. There are TWO people in a relationship (well more than 2 with my ex but that's a whole other discussion).

-NHBB

[thomaso61]

Sorry, didn't read everyone's posts so if I repeat I apologize in advance.

PDQ, what the hell are you thinking? Crazy is crazy can't make sense of it. You shouldn't second guess yourself with everything you've been through and told us. Let her go bro! I'm sure we all have issues because we are human and relationships require work from both parties. But to think it was entirely your fault is proposterous. You were involved with someone who has a serious mental illness. When you look at it that way it's much easier to see it for what it is and was. C'mon PDQ. I've messaged you and spoken to you in person. Your personality  comes through loud and clear on this message board. If you went to see a mental health proffessional and had some papers issued to you making you certifiable then you might want to question the question you posed which started this thread.

A friend of mine likes analyzing people. he's read the DSM4 among many other psyche books. we can all fit into some category or cluster. Who knows, I may have a touch of OCD. The point is no one is perfect or completely normal. we all have defects of character and strive to improve on them. BPD's do not even see themselves or their insanity. That's a HUGE difference bro!

Anyway...I'm gettin off my soap box here. Try not to question it anymore, you'll just make yourself nuts!

[LAPDR]

PD;

Head to Nags Head, go to the Brew Thru then the beach. Take a long walk, clear the mind, take a break from all the deep thinking you are doing and relax a little. Think of that blonde you haven't put a face to yet and dream a little dream.

LA