BPD: Profile and Process of Therapy - Paul J. Hannig, Ph.D

[KaiserSoce]

I don't know if this is the right posting section for this, but I've give it a shot. 

Just read a great article on BPD.  Does a great job of explaining the behaviors of the BP and the motivations behind them.

Definitely worth a read.

www.primals.org/articles/hannig03.html

[sassykat]

Excellent article, you hit the nail on the head with that one.  I've been on the emotional rollercoaster ride from hell for almost 8 years, and I trying to talk myself into getting off, it just takes time to realize and understand that, yes, I've made a huge mistake, but it's okay to make mistakes, just learn from them and go on.  My kids can see him for what he really is, and so can my friends and family, so why can't I?

[elphaba]

Really good article, it seems to touch on some additional specific behaviors that are not neccesarilly talked about in alot of the other stuff I've read.

All the references to the false self, the illusion they must create in order to live with themselves was a big one for me... .It helps to know that is truly what it was/is... .an illusion... .a part that he played in order to get what he needed from me... .and now from someone new.

Sad... .but, sadder for all the years I lost.

[turtle]

I thought this article was excellent.  Thanks Kaiser Soce.

TUrtle

[Turil]

There seem to be a lot of claims made that aren't really backed up by science, and are instead based on assumptions and biases.  It's too bad, because there is a lot of good stuff in the article too.

-Turil

[nomarbles]

From the article:

"The borderline has a deep, underlying terror of catastrophic annihilation, which may have its earliest roots in trauma surrounding the blastocyst's need to connect to the uterine wall and even to trauma surrounding conception, involving the egg's rejection of the sperm. Consequently borderlines may be hypersensitive to withdrawal and yet insensitive as to how their behavior affects others. Besides prenatal rejection, childhood abuse and generational factors play a part in forming the BP."

Come on now... .main cause is trauma from connecting to uterine wall when you were just a tiny collection of cells, or better yet, before the egg and sperm that made you even connected. Oh, and oh yeah, childhood abuse might also have something to do with it sometimes. give me a break.


another real doozy:

"The male part of the Self begins its physical journey in the body of the father and the female Self comes to life in the body and egg of the mother. In the BP the father's sperm seeks connection, acceptance, and impregnation, but mother's egg does not. The egg vehemently fights to reject the sperm. If the mother does not want the pregnancy and/or rejects the father and his child the child will feel unacceptable and unwanted, and will identify with feelings of nonexistence, such as "I'm not wanted . . . I'm nothing," and so on. As such, for the borderline, conception is not an act of love.

"A fetus conceived in love and passion will feel wanted and esteemed. But, for the borderline, there has never been this ideal, environmental circumstance attached to conception. The will to live and survive originates from the real self, from a soul existing in perfect being and essence, even before taking physical form. It is the will to survive that allows the infant to endure the life-threatening traumas that are imminently faced in the womb."

[Surrender]

I just read this article and saw the entire dynamic of my DBPD partner. It gave me a deeper understanding of the actual level or gravity of the illness and how I as his partner can't make the mistake of trying to be therapist and partner. I think I made the mistake of thinking I could provide form him more than what I actually can.

This article was amazing.

[Tausk]

The article you cite was published in Primal Renaissance: The Journal of Primal Psychology, which no real clinical psychologist would ever publish in.  The article has never been cited by another publication in a rated journal.  And the Journal it was published in is not rated as an academic journal.  My suspicion is that it is a pay for publication.  The Board of Directors for the International Primal Association, which published the online journal, has no physicians or Doctorates of Clinical Psychology.  

I read much of the article.  It's pretty well written, but the problem is that there are many assumptions without specific cites.  In addition, although maybe much of it is based on data, if you can't sort through the truth from the lies/speculation it's actually worse than having no information.  Because a person with malignant hope could believe the falsehoods.  It's like me saying, 1+1=2,  and then you should also believe that the decay rate of an radioactive isotope is the inverse of the natural log with respect to time.      

In fact this comes from the abstract:



The borderline has a deep, underlying terror of catastrophic annihilation, which may have its earliest roots in trauma surrounding the blastocyst's need to connect to the uterine wall and even to trauma surrounding conception, involving the egg's rejection of the sperm.

WTF?  Impossible to prove untrue.  How do we know how hard it was for Daddy's sperm to penetrate Mommy's egg.  Or how hard it was for a pwBPD initial blastocyst to connect to Mommy's uterine wall.  And if this is the reason our ex's have BPD.  Not because of the f'cked up family life or sexual molestation, or genetic factors... . It's because the egg played hard to get with the sperm at the moment of conception. 

The author claims that BPD's have a false self.  He claims it's possible to  find the inner child in a BPD.  Both these statements have not bearing on fact.  It sounds nice, but such malignant hope could inspire millions of couples to spend their life-savings on this guy to find the inner child in the BPD.  He could live off the $200 a week from you until you are totally broke and wasted most of your life on malignant hope.  And don't you think that if he had really "cured" some pwBPD and found their inner child he would be world famous by now?  

":)r." Hannig, never once states where his Ph.D is from.  Any real researcher always lets you know where he did his research and received his training.  He is not on any reputable boards, or on staff at any accredited research institution, and has no publications in a rated academic journal.   However, he does have a "Meet Up" profile and has 40 connections on linked-in. barfy barfy barfy  But even there he never reveals his education.  He might be like Dr. Laura who's Ph.d was in physical education and not mental health.  And he might have gotten his degree from a mail order company.  And yes he's accredited as a counselor in CA, but all that takes a a degree in social work with some counseling credits.

He has a marriage counseling business, as well as some nice new age therapies, a telephone counseling service, and an interview on a website with an ad in the middle of the interview asking, "Is he cheating on you?"  On his website he offers the following therapies:  THERAPY: Hypnosis: Beyond Therapy, Teletherapy: Telephone & Skype Video Sessions,  E-Therapy,  :)eep Feeling Therapy, Music in Therapy, Separation Counseling, The Love Program, Healing Meditations, Power of Prayer/Psycho-Spiritual Therapy

Is this the guy you want to trust to totally break down a pwBPD and hope that a psychotic break doesn't occur.  He's a marriage counselor.  Not a clinical psychologist.  What marriage counselors don't tell you is that they see couples with a partner with BPD all the time.  And they say up front that they work for the relationship.  They don't make clinical diagnosis at the time.  So, couples like us spend countless days and hours trying to fix things.  A couple with a pwBPD is a CASH COW for MARRIAGE COUNSELORS.

Why do I say this... . again, because is important to look only at the real data that is out there.  There are tons of people who say that they can fix marriages no matter what, or can cure a pwBPD.  But if this guy could cure a pwBPD... . he'd be the richest and most famous therapist in the world.  Half of Hollywood would be lining up to his door.  

I don't want the malignant hope that is derived from an advertising paper from a marriage counselor to drum up business to be the basis for anyone to keep from moving on. I've been stuck in malignant hope for a long time.  It comes and goes, but I work hard at acceptance that there is no hope for a cure for my ex.

I don't want any other new people on here thinking that a cure is realistic.  Even some sense of manageability is rare.  But I've only heard of a few pwBPD who have actually developed a self, and even those I'm skeptical about.

From my discussions with my T (very clinical, well read, Ph.D from reputable University and peer reviewer on journals) he has indicated that most of the successful cases comes from severely low functioning people who in a controlled setting (psych ward) have been broken down, and a new self rebuilt to an extent.  There's very little data on a high functioning pwBPD going through this process, because again, no therapist in their right mind would do it.  All it takes is one patient to jump off a twenty story building to ruin a private therapy practice forever.

Malignant Hope that things will change with our exes can cause some of us to lose their lives in a wasteful and destructive endeavor.  Be careful what you read, because so much of it is bunk.

This is bunk!

[Surrender]

I don't want the malignant hope that is derived from an advertising paper from a marriage counselor to drum up business to be the basis for anyone to keep from moving on. I've been stuck in malignant hope for a long time.  It comes and goes, but I work hard at acceptance that there is no hope for a cure for my ex.

Wow You have given me much to think about and I can't argue any of it... . interesting thing is that of late I've been reading many clinical studies which feel more substantial and ascertainable.

I really am grateful for what you wrote. Will be pondering it further.

[Tausk]

I don't want the malignant hope that is derived from an advertising paper from a marriage counselor to drum up business to be the basis for anyone to keep from moving on. I've been stuck in malignant hope for a long time.  It comes and goes, but I work hard at acceptance that there is no hope for a cure for my ex.

Wow You have given me much to think about and I can't argue any of it... . interesting thing is that of late I've been reading many clinical studies which feel more substantial and ascertainable.

I really am grateful for what you wrote. Will be pondering it further.

Again, I'm not saying all of it was wrong.  But the article gives a possible explanation of BPD as the egg rejecting the sperm.  Right there it's proof it's not a clinical piece but simply conjecture.

It's just hard to separate what is real or not.  And these articles are written to validate people who are emotionally vulnerable.  Read with a discerning eye and heart.

Good luck.

[MyGreatEscape]

Really well-written article. I'm on the fence about the blastocyst theory, but hey, who knows... . life begins at conception and I believe we decide where we are going before we get "here," so maaaaaaybe that's possible... . why not.

I loved the part where it says we need the non-reactivity of a saint... . so perfect.

Now, if my horns would stop popping out, I could try that saint thing on for size... . kidding. Haha... .

Thanks for sharing that.

[Surrender]

I loved the part where it says we need the non-reactivity of a saint... . so perfect.

I find that very thing to be the most unrealistic expectation ever. How do we not take it personally when we are literally contentiously, attacked, insulted, accused and denigrated to the point of the attack not just absolutely verbally abusing us but completely cutting us into pieces where we are led to believe that the person who is supposed to love us is murdering us one piece at a time? I can't express how painful it is to be the target of such a demonic rage that violates any trust we could possibly have in them not to mention safety. They they behave as though nothing happened after the fact and we are left with PTSD and fearful of even speaking with an automatic response.

How is this acceptable and why is the expectation for us to be anything but human? Don't take it personally, don't react but just validate them as they rip you to shreds and vivisect you while you are still wide awake. How is any of this anything other than pussy footing around them because we are desperate for hell to recede even for a short while. All we do is placate them while we internalize all the abuse they inflict upon us and they get to carry on without accountability or true awareness and cost.

I'm sorry but this makes me so furious and sometimes I feel that loving him is hell on earth. Sometimes I want to pretend that I'm equally as emotionally dysregulated and easily triggered and just rage at him for the smallest of things for a week straight and see what he does and how he handles it. I'm serious, I've actually considered this. The fact that I've thought about actually doing that to him is a confirmation of my own sense of injustice and rage over what I've endured in abuse and what he continues to inflict upon me. Yet I feel bound in loving him and when he is regulated for all of an hour at a time he is kindred to my soul.

[MyGreatEscape]

Surrender... . you have absolutely encapsulated what this is like. Awesome. I totally agree... . we are expected to act like Jesus (I actually had a therapist TELL ME that!) while they rage... . I'm sorry, what? Act like... . Jesus? Okay, then put my arse on a cross and stake me, 'cause I am DONE with this!

So ludicrous.

Have you ever understood the part also about how we "contribute to" their drama by... . oh yeah, REACTING? Then the whole focus shifts to OUR RESPONSE instead of the fact that... . oh, yeah, they were just threatening us, screaming vile obscenities at us, punching holes through walls?

Yeah, I have tried it ALL. I've screamed back, been quiet, laughed, let him rage while I record him, left the room, left the CITY... . he still does the same ___ regardless.

My response basically, just helps ME. With a few exceptions, I sit there (like Spock, he says) and nod my head, and do the whole Mr. Miyagi thing now so that I don't end up with a massive migraine from crying, screaming or in the bathroom with "stomach issues." But I still have PTSD symptoms as well, just not as severe anymore (like that's a cause of celebration, huh?).

I liked the article's info... . but yeah... . we are not saints NOR should we be expected to be.

I am earning my degree in Psychology right now (and I'm with a crazy person, funny... . ). I cannot WAIT to "try" helping people in these situations. I plan on specifically advertising working with people who live with BPD SO's. I will NOT be the therapist who gives these people a pass and I will call their crap OUT and try helping the person who is, well... . US. I'm a little flabbergasted that more therapists don't deal with this issue... . EVERY one I have come across personally (and slowly now professionally) say these people are worthless and helpless so they refuse to treat them. Well isn't that nice... . because people like us, and with kids, still have to struggle with them!

Anyway, Surrender... . you are not alone in your thinking. This whole situation sucks the life out of us. But if possible, work on your reactions... . for your sake... . not his. It doesn't stop them, but it makes US feel better... . it takes work though. I taped a pic of Spock on my office door that shows him saying "fascinating"... . and my husband HATES it because that is what he abhors (and has none of)... . self-control. HA.

[lemon flower]

"I don't want any other new people on here thinking that a cure is realistic.  Even some sense of manageability is rare.  But I've only heard of a few pwBPD who actually developed a self, and even those I'm skeptical about.

From my discussions with my T (very clinical, well read, Ph.D from reputable University and peer reviewer on journals) he has indicated that most of the successful cases comes from severely low functioning people who in a controlled setting (psych ward) have been broken down, and a new self rebuilt to an extent."

Tausk,

where can I read more about this "rebuilding a self" ?

is it part of one of the official BPD-therapies ?

I'm still very confused about the idea that people would have NO self, shouldn't it be: they have a self but they can't connect with it ?

if you believe that every living being has a soul, then how can a human being have no self... .

[Surrender]

It is an interesting theory regarding the 'new' development of the self over intense therapy. As per what I have seen I know a woman who has been in intense therapy for 15 years, she has made it her life because she was so desperate to be able to have a relationship. I met with her the other day to discuss questions related to this very topic as well to discuss my ex.

Although the therapy has helped her to be able to manage better through life by not allowing her instinctive responses to take over but rather her 'mindfulness' she is still disassociated from a sense of self. She goes as far to say that she doesn't know who or even IF she Is and that most of the time she can't even 'feel' herself. I asked her if the room we were sitting in was uncomfortable or if there was a strange heating sensation coming out of the walls. She told me that in order to answer such things she would have to be 'in herself' which she never experienced her entire life. She likened it to living like you were constantly out of your body.

It was quite fascinating and very sad. I realized as per my ex that as soon as we broke up he became immersed in the purchasing of material things as a sort of replacement to me. I didn't recognize this new person because my experience of him was the researcher of life and all things deep... . fellow truth seeker. I only now realize that persona might have been simply my influence even though we did meet under the premise of seeking out truth.

It is so hard to say with this all but as empty as they feel they seem to have no problem disconnecting to their the people (exes) they claim they love. For me it was a 3 year struggle to realize that I could 'help' him heal or feel 'safe' or that he had the capacity to 'manage' this relationship killer. I am trying to move on and heal and some days I think I've left far more wounded and damaged than him.

I had a very strange feeling sitting with my friend as the 'void' seemed to fill the room. I realized that unless a direct question was poised to her she would just sit there. She admitted to me that she can stare at a wall for hours and hours because everything is empty so unless she is prompted then there is no compulsion on her part to speak or engage. She did admit that the 15 years of therapy was a huge success for her and her life. Sitting there in front of her I was baffled as I tried to imagine what she was like before on account of the strange emptiness I was confronted with in her presence?

It is a dangerous illusion to risk your life for the BPD dream of a life together.

[lemon flower]

this is indeed unspeakably sad... . and did it work for her to keep her r/s ?

my Bf also mentioned emptyness and being outside his body, but I don't think this is a constant modus for him, but then again he's drinking and blowing most of the time in order to feel "better"... .

reading this I realise there is no way he would ever have the courage to being in therapy for such a long time, and what for, if you think of it... .

[lemon flower]

this lack of experiencing "feeling" might explain his enormous hunger for body-contact and hugging... . even though we are exes now, and seeing eachother as friends, there is no way that he could stay away from me fysically, he's like a little child that comes crawling to you for hugs or wants to get picked up, he could stick to me for hours if I let him... .

and when we had a r/s he would embrace me when we went to sleep until I had the feeling I couldn't move or breathe anymore, talking of "suffocating "love"... .