Ashamed

[MaybeSo]

I am envious of people who somehow seem to manage long-term intimate relationships with relative ease and good return on investment for both of them and for those around them.

I feel so ashamed that I am not one of those people.

I believe people who have more ease in romantic relationships are afforded more ease and comfort in every aspect of life.  Their work in the world, their play, their difficult times, all are made easier and they have more to give because they manage to maintain good, long term bonds with a significant other and that helps fuel their life.

How can something that should come somewhat naturally (we are hard-wired for relationship after all!) be so complicated, difficult and counterintuitive?

I could not make it work with my first and only husband and father of my now 23 year old daughter.  We would appear to be the perfect match from the outside but I felt ill at ease from the beginning.  What I point to that bothered me was his very detached manner and his near constant need to be viewed as a hero by everyone.  Sex felt robotic.  He never gazed into my eyes.  He was constantly rescuing and nurturing others at his own expense.  He was revered as such a good, caring guy, and he still is, by everyone who knows him, but I just never could feel a real connection to him.  He seemed dissociated and distant, like he was in his own bubble and not reachable.  He was never overtly mean at all.  He frustrated me to no end, but he was not mean.  He wanted a lot of sex, it was the only selfish fun thing he felt entitled to especially since he was always laboring so hard and over-extending himself so much with others all the time.  He wanted sex every day, preferably.  There would be no rages or overt hostility if I didn’t want to participate.  He would just get even more cut-off; I’d get the cold shoulder.  The hostility was always very covert.  I hated it.  I grew to hate having sex with him. I had him on such a pedestal for so many years, now he just frustrates me when he gets all self-important. He is so disowned from any negative parts of self, he maintains this blown-up air of being such an enlightened being that doesn’t have regular yucky human emotions like basic anger.  I finally chose to leave this relationship and I was heartbroken in doing it.  I created a broken home for my daughter.  I wanted so badly to have a happy home to raise our daughter in, the opposite of what I grew up with in my own broken home (my father left us for another woman when I was about 5).    It killed me to leave that marriage.  But it felt to me like I was dying there.  But he wasn’t mean or anything.  Everyone loved him.  

Of course in every relationship we play our role.  What was my role in the failure of this marriage?  I was younger than him by 10 years.  I had him on a pedestal, and I actually kept him on that pedestal for a long time.  This is easy to do.  Most everyone that knows him ‘worships him’ because he is such an unusually nice, solicitous guy.  I was so ashamed I could not make it work with him.  This man whom everyone reveres and loves, I left.  

He has had a series of failed relationships since we parted.  He is in a relationship now and everyone worries that the relationship is not a good one.  Our daughter doesn’t like the woman he is with much.  Well, it’s more complex than that.  She likes her sometimes, but the woman is tremendously moody and can be really cold and ugly when she’s depressed.  My ex husband is taking on his usual caregiver role, the dynamic has really created a lot of tension in the home, and even his extended family are very concerned.  His sister has tried to speak with him about it and she is growing frustrated with him, and it’s been interesting to see her express some of the same frustration I felt years ago.  She said he acts like he is unaware of everything going on around him and in his home, and his detached, unaware stance makes her feel like she doesn’t even know him.  I can relate.

I did not date much after my marriage broke up.  I was single for a long time and finally met the man that brought me to this forum. That was seven years ago.  I met him in July of 2006.   Typical stuff you read here all the time. Big love that got derailed quickly when his mood and attitude suddenly change over night after a huge love bomb beginning.  Followed by 2-3 years of me just reacting hysterically in my confusion and shock over every weird thing he did and personalizing it to the Nth degree.   The relationship painfully unearthed all buried childhood wounds especially about my father leaving us for another woman when I was five.  (He left my very compliant, passive mom for a raging narcissist and is still with her today).   So, I went through 2-3 years of push-pull trauma reactions and at times behaved poorly myself.  I was focused entirely on him and his bull.  You can see it in all my posts at that time. I was frantic.  Finally I ‘got it’ that I am one-half of this relationship and I am choosing this if I’m in it, so I better start learning to understand myself better and quit focusing on him.  I finally started to get better, thanks in large part to this forum and the very skilled members like Steph etc., who were coaching me.  I got that it’s not personal, that his behavior in not all about me.  Started doing better,  we had about 18 months of good stability but he kicked me out of his house summer of 2011 as he spiraled into a depression and we spent a year apart.

A wise person would have never reconnected but I chose to succumb to his usual later day mea culpas and did another 2-3 years with an even better and different mindset and eyes wide open.   I kept my own home at all times. Taking ownership, practicing radical acceptance, making my own self -care a focus.  Stopped being so reactionary.  Calmed down a lot.  Quit participating in circular arguments and nonsense drama-traumas.

Our last go was relatively calm and had a lot of good features, but as per the norm he crashed into a very ugly irritable depression.  This always happens.   After about six months of his ugly blackness I started to think, “I can’t live this way with no end in sight.”  He was able to go to work every day but the moment he got home it was like living with the grim reaper.  :)ark stuff.  Toxic.  At times scary, with hints of suicidal ideation. I work in this field and this looks like clinical depression to me that isn’t being properly treated.  (it is near impossible to be objective in diagnosing a loved-one and I know this and I feel uneasy.) But, I put on my clinical hat b/c if god-forbid he ever hurt himself I do not want to look back and wish I’d said or done more.  I emailed his therapist that I was concerned about what I was seeing. I had mixed feelings about even doing that, but when someone starts talking like they don’t want to live, I’m going to f-n contact their therapist or doctor.  She contacted him in return, but I  saw no real difference and he remained depressed.  

I finally said I wanted him to get a medication evaluation, I didn’t think his tiny dose of Lexapro was doing anything anymore.  I wanted him to be back in weekly therapy, too.  He was only seeing his T 1x month at this time.  He disagreed.  Accused me of making him the identified patient.  I worry maybe he is right and I need to get the focus off of him.  But I am pretty sure I am not crashing, he is the one who is crashing.  I actually am not feeling sick or very off-balance like in our earlier years, I just feel a bit drained and worried and tired of living with the grim reaper.  I don’t want to live this way.  I started pushing back with some boundaries about him taking steps to be healthier and take care of himself,  and he saw that as being horribly un-empathetic.   I felt like I was doing everything wrong, handling him wrong.  

He had a moratorium on us talking about our relationship.  It was off-limits.  I was not allowed to talk about our relationship or what is going on with him or how I feel about it.  That was all off limits.  To me this was just crazy and not sustainable. He complained a lot, depression-chat was all we had going on between us.   I was lonely and bored and worried and I was getting angry.   I still had fun in my life, I enjoyed my work, my colleagues, friends and family, but there was no joy in my relationship with him.  He refused to do anything fun together that we use to do.  

He refused to do anything to feel better.  Would not see a doctor, would not increase therapy, would not get a medication evaluation.  Then he started in with some of his gamey, also a pattern, and began hinting at having a separate life that may or may not include a burgeoning special friendship with another woman or two.  Not in a nice, straight forward way.   He gives needling, snarky little hints regarding other women that come off as hostile and promote insecurity. I have seen this a million times.  I don’t pick up the rope, I don’t care anymore who he hangs out with, but I don’t like the gaminess.  Can’t stand it.  Additionally, he cuts me out of anything to do with his life, won’t even talk with me about the house he is building, the one he said we would share once it was completed.  I’m now not allowed to even share in any discussion about that, it’s “His house”, not mine.   I said we need to get help as a couple.   He said he wanted to move on and be alone,  that he was unhappy and wanted to be on his own, said maybe he wouldn’t even date this time (left it open)…. And he left.  Again.

He made a limp attempt two weeks later to I re-establish ‘talks’.  I told him I wasn’t interested.  I was angry and tired of it all.  I’m just tired of it all. I’m just sick of him.

Our last face to face was about 2 months ago now.  I sometimes miss him, but not really. I do not reach out to him.  He has sent a text or two, I just reply politely.  He was so dark and ugly this last time, I just am so glad to be away from it.  

What a dismal history I have with the two most important men in my life.  Well, three if you count my father.  

I feel ashamed.  I am ashamed that I really suck at one of the most important endeavors in life.  I feel really ashamed.  

[honeybadger]

I'm sorry you are going through this. I appreciated your very honest assessment and so much of this resonated with me.

You feel how you feel, right or wrong... But feel it--that's the main thing. Feel it so you can eventually let go of that feeling along with everything else that does not belong to you. Your power is in your honesty and your choices. You inspire me. Thinking of you!

[Lucky Jim]

Hey MaybeSo, I agree w/honeybadger and suggest that you just sit with your feelings and observe, without judging them one way or another.  Neither good nor bad, right nor wrong, feelings just are.  You're OK and your feelings are normal.  Don't beat yourself up.  To the contrary, I suggest that you treat yourself with kindness and respect.  Why do you think you feel so ashamed?  It's apparent that you are a loving person with many admirable qualities, and it's too bad that you have been with others who did not appreciate those qualities.  That's OK, because others will.  From now on, you know what to avoid.  Hang in there, LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

How can something that should come somewhat naturally (we are hard-wired for relationship after all!) be so complicated, difficult and counterintuitive?

I beg to differ about what comes naturally. Yes, relationships come naturally.

Looking at people in my life, family, friends, this community, histories of ended relationships, people still in relationships that look horribly unsatisfying to me, and a few relationships that look good and healthy, mostly from a distance. Or if I know the people more intimately, they look good, but the effort to make them be that way is clear. Or I know that both partners had at least one really bad marriage/rs prior.

GOOD relationships are possible, but rare enough that I wouldn't claim that they are natural for humans!

What a dismal history I have with the two most important men in my life.  Well, three if you count my father.

I feel ashamed.  I am ashamed that I really suck at one of the most important endeavors in life.  I feel really ashamed.  

I'm going to challenge you on this. Your relationship history is described very clearly. As I read it, I didn't get the feeling that you were ashamed.

I didn't get a whole lot of feelings in the whole story. Not much about exH. Frustration at the cheating/etc. Passion in your convictions about contacting exbf's T. Resignation about ending the r/s.

Are there feelings you didn't express in your writing?

[MaybeSo]

I have written so much on here that I try to keep it somewhat minimal these days so, no, I probably didn’t bring in all my feelings or go into tremendous detail.

I do feel shame.

There is something about a failed relationship, now two, that just feels ….humiliating.  Shameful, embarrassed. 

Honestly, shame is the best word I can come up with to describe the feeling. 

It feels shameful.  Like there is something wrong with  me.  I’m missing something. 

Either in my capacity to choose well or function well once I’ve chosen.  I always think of myself as being pretty adept about human behavior, I work in the field professionally, for christ sake.  And yet, I can’t have a successful relationship.

And I feel ashamed.  At how unskilled I really am at all this. 

And, lately, I am seeing that my daughter has some real issues about relating with the opposite sex.  She hasn’t had a boyfriend in about three years.  She in only 23.  She has seen her parents split-up (amicably but still, it was a big deal), she has seen me in the last seven years go through hell in my chosen relationship and she has seen her father for the last four years engage in a similar relationship (BPD? or something akin?) with his currently significant other.  My daughter seems to avoid in anyway connecting with men.  She is completely gorgeous, like, stunningly gorgeous.  But she shies away over and over again from connecting, at the same time she wants badly to find someone to love.  I just feel like I have set such a horrible, stupid, f-up example for her over the years that she is just…totally confused and conflicted about anything having to do with dating and men.  Her younger cousin has no problem with dating and men.  Her cousin comes from an enact home and has no problem dating and accepting attention from men.  My daughter should be enjoying this time in her life, instead she battles health issues (epilepsy) and I’ve provided no working model for how to have a healthy, stable relationship.

Ya, I feel ashamed of myself, I feel ashamed of my stupid bull___ choices and I feel so sad that  couldn’t have provided a better model for my daughter.  that’s how I feel.  If it’s not shame it certainly is in the neighborhood, that and regret.

I just wish I could have done better. 

[BuildingFromScratch]

You're being way too hard on yourself. Every parent makes mistakes and struggles with setting good examples. Also, I think, although romantic relationships can be very beautiful, they also cause plenty of damage to people. I think there are far too many broken people looking for others to hold them up and fix them, myself included. I think if you cultivate yourself and build independence and strength and happiness in your own life. Any relationship you get into will fare better. Viewing romantic relationships as some necessary thing is counterproductive. There are people happy who are not in relationships! Anyways, your post showed a lot of courage. I wouldn't worry so much, your heart is in the right place.

[MaybeSo]

I think if you cultivate yourself and build independence and strength and happiness in your own life. Any relationship you get into will fare better.

I get where you are going, but, I have already put a lot of time and energy into cultivating myself. I have built strength, independence and happiness in my life. In the last 7 years I have completed a masters degree, begun a new career, completed a lengthy and complex internship, bought my own home, and I have a good life with friends and family and colleagues and I have interests and hobbies and things I love to do.   I know lots of interesting, capable, independent people; strength, independence, cultivation of self…these are all important qualities intrinsically b/c in my opinion they help to cultivate a rich life, but it doesn’t ensure ‘good relationship’ experiences from what I can see…. and from my own personal experience. In fact, my expectation that these qualities ’should’ lead to good quality of relationships, stability, etc. it is part of why I feel a sense of shame.  I ’should’ have a better relationship track record than I actually have,  given my interests and abilities.  That’s the whole point!  The fact is…. I don’t!

I don’t feel I need a romance or a man to fulfill me.  That is not how I feel at all.  It may sound like that is what I’m trying to say, but it’s not really about that. I have spent a lot of time alone, and in relationship. I am not afraid of being alone, I have been successfully alone (sans a romantic partner).  

I have been less successful in relationship than when I have been alone and single.

I just know a lot about the benefits of having a secure, stable attachment relationship with a significant other as way to go through life, there are clear benefits, both emotionally, materially, physically, and I feel grief that I have never yet really had that in my life.  

I have secure stable attachments with very good friends and family, and I have had two major loves but neither worked out and the last one was far from stable.  I am now 51.  I feel sad that I have not been able to have the experience of a really vibrant, healthy relationship with a partner.  I feel sad I have not modeled that for my daughter during her growing-up years.   I think it’s not the only way to have a meaningful or full life, and I do not feel empty nor afraid of being alone.  

But, I know enough about the benefits of a stable secure partnership, that I know I am missing out on something important and good.  I do grieve that this has alluded me for all these years.  I feel sad (dismayed, ashamed) that I am more than 1/2 way through my life and have missed out on this thus far. :'(   I just do.  I don’t plan to stay stuck or incapacitated because I feel this way right now…but I am feeling the loss right now.  I just am.

[MaybeSo]

I'm sorry you are going through this. I appreciated your very honest assessment and so much of this resonated with me.

You feel how you feel, right or wrong... But feel it--that's the main thing. Feel it so you can eventually let go of that feeling along with everything else that does not belong to you. Your power is in your honesty and your choices. You inspire me. Thinking of you!

Hey MaybeSo, I agree w/honeybadger and suggest that you just sit with your feelings and observe, without judging them one way or another.  Neither good nor bad, right nor wrong, feelings just are.  You're OK and your feelings are normal.  Don't beat yourself up.  To the contrary, I suggest that you treat yourself with kindness and respect.  Why do you think you feel so ashamed?  It's apparent that you are a loving person with many admirable qualities, and it's too bad that you have been with others who did not appreciate those qualities.  That's OK, because others will.  From now on, you know what to avoid.  Hang in there, LuckyJim

Thank you.   

[BuildingFromScratch]

Sorry if I jumped to conclusions. I hope you feel better. I'm impressed by where you are at. Just remember to be easy on yourself and not expect too much from yourself. Good luck.

[Ihope2]

I know about the shame, I am 45 years of age, and have 3 failed long-term relationships and one very short lived failed marriage with a man with BPD to show for myself.  I also had very poor examples of how to conduct healthy intimate relationships from my parents, both my mother and father, pre and post their divorce when I was 7yrs, and then from my mother and NPD "stepfather" of 13 years, and also from my biological father with whom I resided from the age of 20 - 25yrs as a student.  I saw anger, frustration, deception, surliness, moodiness, lack of boundaries, withholding speaking truthfully, suppressing strong emotions, blaming, sulking, passive aggressiveness, sabotaging the other, parental alienation, the works... .

No surprise that my love life has been such a monumental stuff up, too!

And the joke also appears to be on me, as I studied psychology for four years (I didn't complete the final 2 years to qualify as a psychologist, so now I am in a totally different field of work).

But, these learnings we make are priceless and hard-won.  The pain of realising how wrong it has all gone.  Life just seemed to take on a direction all of its own, and here we are, counting the cost.

If I can just suggest one thing to you.  Open up to your daughter about how you feel that you have not provided her with the best example when it comes to conducting intimate relationships.  My mom never did that with me, to this day in her advancing years (70yrs), she is in yet another highly dysfunctional relationship and in deep denial about how she lives her life.  There is a lot of pain in my heart about this.  I will try to talk to her soon, we haven't really spoken much this year as I was going through all my drama with my latest relationship's demise (divorced in June this year).  I need to talk my truth with her.  Perhaps a similar thing would be helpful to you and your daughter and would maybe help ease some of your shame?  The truth sets us free they say... .

[Grey Kitty]

I know the feeling of telling this kind of story many times. In my recent r/s story, the powerful emotions were in versions #1, #2, #3, #5, and #9 

Now I really hear your shame, and also your grieving the kind of relationships you never had.    I can't offer you relief from those feelings... .and I believe you have the wisdom to choose to feel them as they come up instead of hiding from them.

In the last 7 years I have completed a masters degree, begun a new career, completed a lengthy and complex internship, bought my own home, and I have a good life with friends and family and colleagues and I have interests and hobbies and things I love to do.   I know lots of interesting, capable, independent people; strength, independence, cultivation of self…these are all important qualities intrinsically b/c in my opinion they help to cultivate a rich life, but it doesn’t ensure ‘good relationship’ experiences from what I can see…. and from my own personal experience. In fact, my expectation that these qualities ’should’ lead to good quality of relationships, stability, etc. it is part of why I feel a sense of shame.  I ’should’ have a better relationship track record than I actually have,  given my interests and abilities.  That’s the whole point!  The fact is…. I don’t!

I am reminded of something you've probably said to me... .people tend to be in a r/s with somebody at the same level of emotional development. And modify it just a little.

I believe people start relationships with someone at a similar level of emotional development.

You said:

I was focused entirely on him and his bull.  You can see it in all my posts at that time. I was frantic.  Finally I ‘got it’ that I am one-half of this relationship and I am choosing this if I’m in it, so I better start learning to understand myself better and quit focusing on him.  I finally started to get better... .

The Maybeso of 2014 has learned and grown a lot since she got married 20+ years ago. The quote is your overview of your own growth since you got involved with exBPDbf seven years ago. Your level of emotional development was probably close to his seven years ago.

It is a very hard choice to end a r/s. You did hard work on yourself and your side of this second r/s, before you were ready. Clearly he didn't, and you made that tough choice to end it. You sound at peace with that choice.

I think if you met exBPDbf's emotional twin today, you would simply pass on anything romantic with him somewhere between zero and three dates, without any muss or fuss.

Be gentle with yourself about how long it took you to learn this. It is YOUR journey through life. Comparing it to others that figured this particular thing out twenty years younger than you... .or to people twenty years older who show no sign of figuring it out at all (your parents!) doesn't help you on your own journey.

I agree--this is a golden opportunity for you to deepen your r/s with your daughter.

Open up to your daughter about how you feel that you have not provided her with the best example when it comes to conducting intimate relationships.

[Reforming]

Hi MaybeSo

For me most striking thing about your posts is your punitive voice, which is the root of shame.

Excuse me for being blunt but I think;

1. You are being brutally and destructively hard on yourself

2. Very unrealistic about the relationship skills and relationships of the majority of people.

I think the vast majority of people are poorly equipped to have successful relationships. This is why both divorce and unhealthy marriages are so common.

I completely agree with Grey Kitty that healthy relationships are a rarity. In fact imagine how much it could benefit society in general if they decided to teach relationship skills in school.

There are also lots of people who excel in the careers, but who have a series have lousy marriages that leave a trail of disaster behind.

So many people struggle to balance competing parts of their lives.

It sounds like you have achieved a hell of a lot in the last few years. Give yourself credit for that

Putting your unrelenting standards about relationships to one side for the moment perhaps it might be more constructive to focus on the core issue.  

Shame

Shame, that belief that you are intrinsically unlovable or a failure, is not just a dead end - it's quicksand that sucks you down and robs you of the power to change.

I've been getting Schema Therapy for the last few months and this is how I've learned to approach shame.

The 1st step is recognise that insidious, punitive voice that whispers poison in your ear. Often we are so used to it being there that we don't even notice it, but it's the root of shame.

The 2nd step is to name this punitive voice, confront it (all you actually do is to make things worse) and then tell it to fck off.

The 3rd step is to turn towards the vulnerable part of you, the vulnerable child, that really needs your protection and support from the healthy adult / parent of you and comfort her telling her that she is intrinsically loveable, that she's done nothing wrong.

The vulnerable child needs to have her needs met and you are the only person who can do this for her.

No one else can... .

When the needs of our vulnerable child are not being met, we develop coping modes to compensate.

These modes can cause various problems in our interaction with others, but they are not part of the vulnerable child.

Focus on changing the coping mode / never blame the child. All she wants is your love and she deserves it

Our vulnerable child is intrinsically good and deserves to be loved and supported at all times.

When we lose connection with it and don't meet it needs that we slip into unhealthy patterns.

Hope this doesn't sound too esoteric

Down with shame

Reforming

[vortex of confusion]

I have been following your thread MaybeSo and have wanted to say something but wasn't sure what to say because I feel that shame as well. I am ashamed of myself for not being able to figure out how to conduct myself in a relationship in such a way that it is healthy. If I could figure out how to set better boundaries. . .If I could do this or if I could do that, then things might be better.

I know that relationships take a lot of work but the work is worth it because both parties learn and grow together. I have not left my partner yet but am trying to get my ducks in a row so that I can. I am ashamed of myself for staying in an unhealthy relationship and I am ashamed of myself for wanting to leave. I have a lot of expectations (from myself and society) that I cannot seem to live up to no matter what I do.

In reading a lot of the different threads, I feel like a walking red flag. I have a messed up family of origin. I am not the perfect wife. I am not the perfect mother. I never wanted to be perfect as much as I wanted to make sure that I did not perpetuate some of the crap that I experienced growing up. I wanted to give my kids so much more than I have been able to give them and that makes me feel horrible. I crave connection yet feel disconnected. I am ashamed of feeling my feelings.

[patientandclear]

Hi MaybeSo.  

I identify strongly with what you've written in this thread.  Very, very strongly.  I am 48.  I've spent more of my life alone than any woman I know.  I am strong, successful, have highly fulfilling work (or it used to be fulfilling before I got so sad about this other thing ... .) and I am very good at it.  I kick lots of butts and people in my life would think, if I had not confided in them, that I am in a great place.  I'm sure a lot of women my age that I know envy me -- because I got out of the two crappy relationships I've had since I was 25 and I have a lot of freedom, and seem healthy and fine with it.

I'm not healthy and fine with it.  I'm really sad.  I feel so much what you expressed here, that I am missing out on something quite valuable and important, and I am increasingly doubtful that I will experience it.  It is really something to be a woman our age, something I'm not sure younger people or men of any age often get.  The river doesn't flow past my door anymore, the way it did when I was younger, when one screwed up relationship was just that, and I knew I'd get another chance.  I'm not at all certain I will get that chance now, no matter how much refined self-knowledge I have and how many healthy practices I engage in.

And it really breaks my heart when I realize all that.

Now.

Let me also say that I am super clear that that sadness and, well, near terror, is what drove me to try to hang onto my r/ship with my BPDexbf.  I ended up drawing some boundaries (that I still absolutely believe in) and I lost him as a result (either a result of the boundaries, or a result of the way I drew them).  And it's been just ... .excruciating ... .to try to be confident that I made the right call.  Because the result is this bleak absence-of-partnership.  And, knowing that is the alternative, messing around trying to make something healthy and worthwhile with him despite the odds doesn't seem like such a crazy choice.  I recall you writing something similar more than a year ago.

I think it is really super important to acknowledge that these are legitimate fears founded in experience and reality.  We are not delusional that we might not experience the kind of love we want.  We are not delusional that that really makes a difference in how easy and pleasurable it is to go through life.

Getting a handle on how much that legitimate (darn it!) fear is driving relationship choices we would not otherwise make, is quite a task.  I'm still really struggling with it (in my case it's trying to vanquish regret over the choice to end things if my ex-partner continued using our relationship as he was doing).

But I want to also say that the mess and hurt that happened with your BPD guy ... .that isn't because you lack relationship skill, or are "unwise."  You have a lot of skill and a lot of wisdom.  You chose to be brave and venture into little-charted territory, and not give up on a possible connection with someone you loved so long as you had a theory of how your own changes could maybe make it possible to that connection to be healthy.  That is all super commendable.  You didn't screw up.  There's really no reason to think that, had you lowered the boom years ago with him, that someone more well-suited to be a rewarding partner would have shown up.  So ... .I really don't think you screwed any of this up.  BPD r/ships are the ultimate mind-bender and chucking them out the window in a knee jerk way is no wiser than staying and trying.  It is just so confusing to know what is best.

This is all mostly a crapshoot, people.  All we can do, I think, is try to be present and open and see what comes, and not miss it because we're staring down at our feet thinking there is some problem with us.  Thanks for writing, MaybeSo.  This really helped me, for what it's worth.

[MaybeSo]

If I can just suggest one thing to you.  Open up to your daughter about how you feel

thank you, and I agree totally... .and I have started sharing with her a bit about my feelings about this... .but, I have to be careful b/c my daughter has some ' rescuing and caretaking' traits herself (gee wonder where she got that from?)  and any time I try to honestly assess some of my own behavior she jumps in to try to save me and poo-poo's it all.  She can't take it in, she seems to think I need to maintain an air of perfection, like her father does, and really... .I don't.  I'm so over trying to come off in any way as perfect. But, given how I have been in the past, and how her father still is, I totally get that she thinks it's her job to talk me out of any self assessment that isn't glowing.  So, I also try to let he know that SHE DOENS'T HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF ME or rescue me.   I can assess myself as imperfect w/out falling completely apart, I'm not that fragile.  I get it that I make mistakes.  I also try to convey to her that neither of her parents are perfect and that it's totally okay that we aren't... .we don't have to be perfect, and neither does she.   (this is like breaking a big unspoken rule as it pertains to her father, he's like a saintly figure).

Jesus that codependent crap runs deep. 

[MaybeSo]

I have a messed up family of origin. I am not the perfect wife. I am not the perfect mother. I never wanted to be perfect as much as I wanted to make sure that I did not perpetuate some of the crap that I experienced growing up. I wanted to give my kids so much more than I have been able to give them and that makes me feel horrible. I crave connection yet feel disconnected. I am ashamed of feeling my feelings.

[MaybeSo]

Hope this doesn't sound too esoteric

Not at all.  Very wise words to mediate on, thank you. 

[MaybeSo]

Your level of emotional development was probably close to his seven years ago.

In terms of intimacy, you are so right.  I know! Exactly! GULP... .just amazing.

[MaybeSo]

Hi Patientandclear,

It’s good to hear from you, and thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I ended up drawing some boundaries (that I still absolutely believe in) and I lost him as a result (either a result of the boundaries, or a result of the way I drew them).  And it's been just ... .excruciating ... .to try to be confident that I made the right call.  Because the result is this bleak absence-of-partnership.  And, knowing that is the alternative, messing around trying to make something healthy and worthwhile with him despite the odds doesn't seem like such a crazy choice.  I recall you writing something similar more than a year ago.

It often seemed staying with the devil I know was a better alternative than risking the unknown.

I think there was a time when that was true and a time when I could make sense out of staying. It isn’t making much sense now; over the last year or two, with this last experience, there really isn’t much there.  In prior times, there were times between us when it was really hard but there was at least some growth and we would share.  Now it’s just…nothing.   He and I are less than perfect people, for sure, but I think we had a chance if we continued to grow.  When he laid down his ‘rule’ that we were not allowed to talk about ‘us’ or anything regarding our relationship…at first I just blew-it off thinking he’s just being dramatic…in a couple weeks we will be talking, maybe we would even have a disagreement, but we’d work it out, be the better for it. Just the stuff couples do. We have done it before.  But…no.  It was like…six months later…and we are still not allowed to talk. I agree,  talk can be cheap…but, there has to be some verbal sharing, some give and take, something there.  Honestly, by the time he left, there was no relating in our relationship.  I don’t even know what you would call it.  It was just…nothing.   

About three weeks after he left, I was with a girlfriend and I received a card in the mail from him for my birthday.  The Hallmark Card sentiment said

“I’m thinking of you and all you bring to my life and smiling”... (not his words, but it’s the cards words)…

and me and my friend just burst out laughing b/c it was like the card was saying…

“I’m thinking of you and all you bring to my life and smiling now that I’m not with you."

He acted like he hated me for months and months…leaves me, and now he is smiling. 

Anyway, I’m glad I can laugh about it and not just cry.  It’s out of my control. He usually feels better for a while after he leaves me, so hopefully dumping me jumped-started him out of his depression.  It usually does.   

Gee, I thought maybe he could just get on some better meds…what was I thinking?  

[123Phoebe]

What a dismal history I have with the two most important men in my life.  Well, three if you count my father.

I feel ashamed.  I am ashamed that I really suck at one of the most important endeavors in life.  I feel really ashamed.  

MaybeSo, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaghh!  Why are we (me, too!), so good at beating ourselves up when we're feeling low anyway?  Ugh, I hate that you're feeling blah.

Have you considered that you might not suck at all?  That these men have been important to your life, to your growth, to your future?  All for very good reasons?

About three weeks after he left, I was with a girlfriend and I received a card in the mail from him for my birthday.  The Hallmark Card sentiment said

“I’m thinking of you and all you bring to my life and smiling”... (not his words, but it’s the cards words)…

and me and my friend just burst out laughing b/c it was like the card was saying…

“I’m thinking of you and all you bring to my life and smiling now that I’m not with you."

He acted like he hated me for months and months…leaves me, and now he is smiling.  

Anyway, I’m glad I can laugh about it and not just cry.  It’s out of my control. He usually feels better for a while after he leaves me, so hopefully dumping me jumped-started him out of his depression.  It usually does.    

Gee, I thought maybe he could just get on some better meds…what was I thinking?  

Oh boy... .

On THEE day my exh and I filed for divorce, he sent me an email from his computer upstairs (I had my own downstairs):

Subject:  Isn't this great?

It was an email from a future (full-time) employer, stating that if exh is serious, he has a full-time job waiting for him in different state.

What the ... . That was my biggest beef with him, that he was refusing to work a steady job; hello!  I yelled up the stairs, "F... .U!  OMG"

It makes me laugh now, too

 Please know that people care

[rollercoaster24]

Hi MaybeSo

I hear you on that shame thing, we are wired to be hard on ourselves, which is probably the biggest reason a lot of us ended up in relationships with BP's!

Like you, I carry shame too, for my inability to be in a romantic relationship that actually worked, and for many other of my 'mistakes', foolishly still beating myself up inside for them years later. Often wish I could wave a magic wand, and shake that *&^%$ off permanently, life would definitely feel soo much lighter without that burden inside.

Here's hoping we can find that magical place in our lives.

Cheers

Roller

[eyvindr]

Hi all. Been awhile. Figured it was time for me to come back and sort out some stuff.

Wow, MaybeSo -- I read your post and felt sadness, and empathy and a weird sense of relief, like someone else was finally able to explain what I've been feeling. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. But thank you for sharing. I feel the same way.

I have written so much on here that I try to keep it somewhat minimal these days so, no, I probably didn’t bring in all my feelings or go into tremendous detail.

I do feel shame.

There is something about a failed relationship, now two, that just feels ….humiliating.  Shameful, embarrassed. 

Honestly, shame is the best word I can come up with to describe the feeling. 

It feels shameful. Like there is something wrong with me. I’m missing something. 

Either in my capacity to choose well or function well once I’ve chosen.  I always think of myself as being pretty adept about human behavior... .And yet, I can’t have a successful relationship.

And I feel ashamed.  At how unskilled I really am at all this.

I relate more to the term "failed" than to "shame." I don't really feel ashamed of my failed relationships -- I tried my damnedest to make them work. If I'm ashamed of anything, it's of trying too hard at times, when reason and my gut were clearly telling me things were past the point of no return. When all I had left was anger over feeling like, once again, I'd tried everything, and, once again, everything still failed.

I've tried to explain this to friends many times. The best I can do is to say I guess I've always felt like it's not right to leave someone you love, who loves you, without exhausting every option to make things work. That's what I've always tried to do. And it's never worked. Which is possibly the most discouraging fact whose reality keeps getting reinforced in my life, in the realm of my intimate, romantic relationships.

In the end, when I've finally left, it's been because things reached this point:

• I was emotionally exhausted, tired of making no progress, and feeling defeated.



• I was beginning to become a person I don't want to be -- either in my own behaviors towards my lover, myself, and my friends and family, or because I'd begun to make compromises for the relationship that unfairly sacrificed other good parts of my life. Feeling like, if I were to stay, my life would be ruined.



• Emotionally, I felt myself losing respect for my partner, struggling to admire them, annoyed with their presence and moods. I had to leave before I started to hate them.

Earlier today, I was researching a new vehicle purchase; turn out I've had much longer, committed, happy relationships with vehicles than I have with people. In a related discussion forum, I was looking at the profile of one of the OPs, and in it he mentioned that he'd been married to his "better half" for the past 35 years. Later, when I was tossing a load of laundry into the dryer, it made me feel just incredibly sad to realize that, being 52, I won't ever get to experience that kind of long-term, steady, deep love with a partner. It's what I always wanted.

But I haven't been able to pull it off, either.

[TheDude]

I'm 51, never married, and no children.

I can relate to this thread, but I wouldn't use the word shame for myself. Frustration is a better word, but maybe that's semantics?

When I tally things up, I've spent half of my adult life in committed relationships, and half on my own. It seems to me that life had always been more balanced and stable when I'm solo, but ultimately I really do "feel" best when I'm with someone (at least when it's reasonably normal). I like to think I have a fair amount of wisdom and emotional maturity, but the frustration comes from what I see as an apparent dismal ability to choose the right partners. I question what's next.

I do remember during my thirties having my circle of friends (who were mostly married at that point) saying some things to me that might be considered 'shame' inducing. Almost all of them are now divorced and on their 2nd or 3rd or even 4th marriages. They're also more miserable than I am. A few years ago I ran into an old girlfriend from high school. When I told her I never married she said, "You were always the smart one". Ok, I guess?

What I am ashamed of is allowing myself to be treated so horribly by the NPD/BPD ex. I worry for my future choices... .

[Perfidy]

Maybe so, the four agreements might help you. It's ancient Toltec.

1. Be Impeccable with your Word: Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the Word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your Word in the direction of truth and love.

2. Don’t Take Anything Personally

Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

3. Don’t Make Assumptions

Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

4. Always Do Your Best

Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse, and regret.

This is the outline for a spiritual warrior.

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe so, the four agreements might help you. It's ancient Toltec.

I really like the four agreements. They make a lot of sense. However, as I read them, I found myself thinking, "These things don't seem to work with somebody that is mentally ill." I can think of instances where I have tried stuff like the four agreements only to have it blow up in my face. Part of what contributes to some of the shame for me is the fact that I have read various things to improve myself and my relationships over the years but I was unsuccessful. I am going to comment on the 4 agreements and explain why they didn't work for me or seemed to make the situation worse.

1. Be Impeccable with your Word: Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the Word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your Word in the direction of truth and love.

This sounds really great in theory but this can also lead one to become even more isolated. I am thinking about how I tried so hard NOT to say anything bad about my husband for the longest time. When a person is doubting reality because of the head games that are played by a person with BPD traits, it is really difficult to tell what is real and what isn't. I was convinced that I was the problem. I was convinced that the only way to speak with truth and love was to keep anything and everything about my husband to myself. For me, it was really hard to open up about the things that my husband said and did because I didn't want to be a gossip. I didn't want to smear his name and I didn't want to speak ill of the person that I married. And, more importantly, I want to try to keep a positive attitude about the father of my children.

2. Don’t Take Anything Personally

Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

I think the whole "don't take anything personally" can blind people to being able to be self aware and self reflective. My actions do impact others and other people's actions impact me. Being rejected repeatedly HURTS. Even if it isn't personal, it still hurts. Maybe I am being too sensitive but this makes me feel even more ashamed. I am ashamed that I have taken some of my husband's behavior personally. How else is one supposed to feel when continually rejected? Am I not supposed to feel anything at all?

3. Don’t Make Assumptions

Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

This does NOT work when dealing with somebody with a mental illness. I have tried to communicate as clearly as possible with my spouse and others. There are certain people that I cannot communicate with no matter how clearly I try to communicate. I can ask questions and state exactly what I want but it falls on deaf ears. After years and years of dealing with somebody that doesn't understand what you are trying to communicate, one begins to question themselves. I began to feel like I lacked any and all ability to communicate. And that contributes to feeling ashamed, lost, frustrated, hurt, and just plain confused at times.

4. Always Do Your Best

Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse, and regret.

It is really difficult to determine whether or not I am doing my best. I know that sounds silly but there are times when I am so caught up in the FOG that I feel like I am not doing my best. If I was doing my best, then I would be able to do all of the other things on this list and I would feel better and I would be able to communicate better, not take things personally, and not say anything bad about my partner or others. Sometimes, the truth is bad and feels a lot like gossip.

I think the agreements can be great for somebody that is a bit further along in the healing process. I just know that I read them and felt a huge wave of guilt and shame because I cannot seem to figure out how to NOT feel stuff. If I could just NOT feel stuff, then I would be okay!

[Pingo]

Vortex, I was reading your post and it made me think of a few things.  Hope you don't mind me adding my perspective, take what you want and toss the rest (I'm learning just like you).

1. Be Impeccable with your Word: Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the Word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your Word in the direction of truth and love.

This sounds really great in theory but this can also lead one to become even more isolated. I am thinking about how I tried so hard NOT to say anything bad about my husband for the longest time. When a person is doubting reality because of the head games that are played by a person with BPD traits, it is really difficult to tell what is real and what isn't. I was convinced that I was the problem. I was convinced that the only way to speak with truth and love was to keep anything and everything about my husband to myself. For me, it was really hard to open up about the things that my husband said and did because I didn't want to be a gossip. I didn't want to smear his name and I didn't want to speak ill of the person that I married. And, more importantly, I want to try to keep a positive attitude about the father of my children.

I always tell my son he is not responsible for other people's reactions (usually referring to his Dad).  Speaking with integrity doesn't mean always talking butterflies and rainbows.  It sometimes means telling the harsh truth even when it won't be received well.  And opening up to someone about what you are going through in your marriage isn't gossip in my opinion, if it's someone who is your support.  We all need support.

2. Don’t Take Anything Personally

Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

I think the whole "don't take anything personally" can blind people to being able to be self aware and self reflective. My actions do impact others and other people's actions impact me. Being rejected repeatedly HURTS. Even if it isn't personal, it still hurts. Maybe I am being too sensitive but this makes me feel even more ashamed. I am ashamed that I have taken some of my husband's behavior personally. How else is one supposed to feel when continually rejected? Am I not supposed to feel anything at all?

What I take from this is not that you shouldn't feel the hurt of other people's actions (we'd have to be a robot or maybe a very enlightened being to not feel hurt) but you should remember that their hurtful words or behaviours isn't about something you are lacking, it's about where they are emotionally.  I struggle with this one the most I think.

3. Don’t Make Assumptions

Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

This does NOT work when dealing with somebody with a mental illness. I have tried to communicate as clearly as possible with my spouse and others. There are certain people that I cannot communicate with no matter how clearly I try to communicate. I can ask questions and state exactly what I want but it falls on deaf ears. After years and years of dealing with somebody that doesn't understand what you are trying to communicate, one begins to question themselves. I began to feel like I lacked any and all ability to communicate. And that contributes to feeling ashamed, lost, frustrated, hurt, and just plain confused at times.

Again, you are not responsible for others' reactions or if they choose to listen or not, you are only responsible for speaking your truth.  It's when we tie in expectations to our communications where we run into disappointment and frustration.  (I've learned this the hard way !)

4. Always Do Your Best

Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse, and regret.

It is really difficult to determine whether or not I am doing my best. I know that sounds silly but there are times when I am so caught up in the FOG that I feel like I am not doing my best. If I was doing my best, then I would be able to do all of the other things on this list and I would feel better and I would be able to communicate better, not take things personally, and not say anything bad about my partner or others. Sometimes, the truth is bad and feels a lot like gossip.

You do your best by remembering to be compassionate to yourself.  Remember you are human.  Doing your best doesn't mean doing things perfectly.  It means you just keep trying, put one foot in front of the other.  We are certainly a work in progress, this work will never end until the day we take our last breath.

(p.s. Vortex, I'm not very good at any of these on a consistent basis  )

[Clearmind]

Oh yes. I fear intimacy! I learnt not to trust it and chose emotionally unavailable men. I wasn't treated the way I deserved, I settled.

I also sabotaged because I was fearful of the unknown, fearful of feeling vulnerable and fearful of being left alone. While on a sliding scale of severity, I would consider myself on the lower end of exhibiting BPD traits. I'm certainly not BPD however I did fear intimacy, engulfment and abandonment - which doesn't create a good head space for choosing a good partner never mind having a good Union where we were both equals.

My picker was way off.

Also MaybeSo. I think the fact you have recognized this "shame" you speak of means you are part the way there. Processing shame is a tough one however worth exploring more.

Love this book: www.amazon.com/Soul-without-Shame-Liberating-Yourself/dp/157062383X and also Brene Browns book www.amazon.com/Daring-Greatly-Courage-Vulnerable-Transforms-ebook/dp/B00APRW2WC/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1419639081&sr=1-2&keywords=Brene+brown+vulnerability is also good.

And this was me all over! www.amazon.com/HES-SCARED-SHES-Steven-Carter-ebook/dp/B008DXAZ60/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1419639142&sr=1-1&keywords=he%27s+scared+she%27s+scared

[myself]

Does shame come more from comparing ourselves to others, or not living up to what we see as our own potential (comparing ourselves to ourselves/who we think we could be)? Situations come and go, as does self respect in certain situations. Sometimes shame is more along the lines of feeling disappointment. Something that can motivate us to make positive changes in our lives. If you're growing, what's to be ashamed about?

[Deeno02]

Does shame come more from comparing ourselves to others, or not living up to what we see as our own potential (comparing ourselves to ourselves/who we think we could be)? Situations come and go, as does self respect in certain situations. Sometimes shame is more along the lines of feeling disappointment. Something that can motivate us to make positive changes in our lives. If you're growing, what's to be ashamed about?

For me, it's about failure. Relationship failure. I set no boundaries, set minimal expectations. I was along for the ride and she was driving. Even when she started in on her jealousy of my daughter, I said nothing. That's why I'm ashamed and guilt ridden even though I'm moving along. I can't go back and fix it, but I can damn well make sure it does not happen again. Unfortunately, since I set zero boundaries, she's on to the next guy, so she will try the same. Maybe he's better than me and will be able to off set or control it, who knows as they are almost 5 months into the r/s and are still goo goo eyed. Long story short, I have to fix that portion of my life so I don't have a repeat. Won't be a recycle, that ship sailed. I don't what a repeat.