Permanent defensive posture…. Thoughts?

[Outdorenthusiast]

Wanted to open a thread on this and get thoughts.  

Quick reminder summary: Married 26 years, three years ago couldn’t take it anymore and started doing my own work and taking care of me as I had become unhealthy under the pressure.  Realized through my own counseling she likely is hf uBPD.

Two years ago she started doing her own work (EMDR, CBT) and has made good strides in the last 4 months to be a better roommate, and wife, but she continuously and deeply struggles daily.  She even sincerely apologized - which was huge for me.  Now she is definitely diagnosed ADHD, CPTSD, spending addictions, eating addictions, depression, anxiety, suicidal tendencies, etc. - the whole alphabet soup.  Honestly the labels I don’t care - the effects on me and my family is where I pay attention.  Most of the symptoms overlap anyway and misdiagnoses abound.

Issue:
Now… I don’t trust what I see from her even if it is kind, as it can flip on a dime, and I have been so emotionally manipulated, gaslit, and recycled over the years.  I don’t walk on eggshells anymore (my own work), but I also find myself not ever letting down my guard, or wanting stop the tools/skills I have learned.  I find myself in a position of being “awake” and can’t see her as anything but disabled anymore.  I find myself in a kind, respectful, but permanent defensive posture.  I view her as an emotional 10 year old, with an equivalent responsibility level.  I am starting to feel it is a bit toxic for us because I no longer enable - and she feels it.  It has definitely driven a wedge between us and it is triggering her abandonment fears.  I also do feel some resentment if I am honest and that likely seeps through at times. (I own that feeling - and know I need to work on that.)

For the long timers or others - is this normal to be on permanent defense?  Advice and thoughts?

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[Gemsforeyes]

Hi there Outdor-

I’m sorry you going through this pain and difficulty in your marriage. I can most definitely understand the absence of trust you feel.  Most definitely.  When you live inside these relationships (I had two consecutive relationships totaling nearly 26 years), at least for me, it was pretty impossible to develop any sense of trust or comfort or peace.  Ever. 

I also understand that feeling of resentment.  I found myself confused at times, because I wasn’t sure whether my “over-functioning” (really enabling) led to more laziness on my exH’s and exBF’s parts.  I do believe both of them were more capable and functional than they let on; they just leaned so hard on me because they could.  And so did I… I leaned way too hard on myself because they did.  That may have been my own arrogance.  I don’t know…

The relationships both really fell apart when the pressure became too much for me and I began to emotionally detach while I was still there.  This is a very recent realization for me.

From my standpoint, I realized I was living in a constant state of anticipation.  I’d developed almost this sixth sense of what would or could go wrong if I didn’t do *x* ahead of time and “invisibly”, to prevent  $&#**# from happening once they arrived.  That next horrible thing.  It was no way to live…in that anxiety-inducing way.  And still… what I *did* never counted… only what I didn’t do “went in my file”. But I don’t think that’s what you’re talking about.

I’m wondering if you can provide a bit more clarity on what you mean by defensive posture?  Can you please provide a few examples?

I’m sorry to be so wordy.  I’ve been working through some things lately.

Warmly,
Gems

[Outdorenthusiast]

Good question: defensive posture examples:

1) Don’t get too happy or enjoy it too much - it isn’t real, it is manipulation
2) Don’t get too concerned with the streams of tears, it is something only she can fix and it isn’t you even if her words say differently
3) Don’t get too angry, the words are just reactions to feelings and likely aren’t connected
4) Listen, be empathetic, but don’t accept blame for inappropriate accusations
5) Don’t get your hopes up, the good will cycle back to bad soon enough - enjoy the calm before the storm - but not too much.
6) Don’t be afraid of threats - 90% are just words spoken during dissociation, she won’t remember them anyway.
Etc…

Almost denying my own natural intrinsic feelings to avoid and offset the yo-yo effect of their rapid fire unpredictable highs and lows.  The hardest feelings for me to be on the defense and deny/self regulate are the happy/hopeful ones.  Being permanently defensive and intentionally “even keel.” 

Or maybe I am the unhealthy weird one?  Hence the discussion thread.

[kells76]

Hey Outdorenthusiast;

So the general timeline is -- married 26 years (24 of which she wasn't getting help?), you started getting help 3 years ago, she started getting help 2 years ago, 4 months ago she stepped up her efforts a bit more? Is that basically it?

I'm curious about why the feeling of a defensive stance is permanent (vs "for now")?

You both didn't get here overnight -- I guess it isn't surprising to me that after 23 years of nobody getting help, and "only" 2 years of her getting help, you might still feel "braced". It is a relatively short time of improvement compared to the rest of your relationship.

Of course, if you know you know, so if there is more backstory to why it's feeling permanent, that's legit.

I think I'm raisin the question of if you can accept feeling "braced" for now and accept that you may be able to have a different feeling relationship in the future?

Just some food for thought (from someone who went through 3 pretty hard years of marriage in 11 years - though to be fair, my H does not have BPD).

[Outdorenthusiast]

I'm curious about why the feeling of a defensive stance is permanent (vs "for now")?
….
I think I'm raisin the question of if you can accept feeling "braced" for now and accept that you may be able to have a different feeling relationship in the future?

I guess because I know now that BPD is permanent?  There is no magical pill cure, it is legitimately part of their personality by definition.  The symptoms can be managed, skills can be learned, but it is always there.  I have played the “hope” game for decades.  Maybe referencing something else…Like blindness…Always blind, but may be able to buttress the effects with training and coping skills.  In BPD - Emotional instability, impulsivity, addiction, irrationality - always there, but effects can be lessened and buttressed with training.

I feel there can never be 100% Trust again and that “normal” (by a  non persons definition) is ever possible.  There can only be acceptance - BPD is BPD.  Blindness is blindness.  Can’t fight it, you can only build and maintain a defense against it.  The extreme effects from BPD can be reigned in with tools (deployed by both spouses) - but they don’t disappear.  Some symptoms can go into remission (I.e. suicide) but it is always lurking under the bed like alcoholism.  Let down your guard - it will come back…

Or maybe I am unique in my thoughts…

[Pook075]

I feel there can never be 100% Trust again and that “normal” (by a  non persons definition) is ever possible.  There can only be acceptance - BPD is BPD.  Blindness is blindness.  Can’t fight it, you can only build and maintain a defense against it.

You are not unique in your thoughts, but what you're describing sounds like a miserable marriage.  If you decide that this is as good as it gets and there's no point trying to change, then it will always be a miserable marriage.  Are you okay with that?

Here's the flip side of the coin.  She's making progress, but you're struggling to see it as "real".  Fair enough.  What would she have to do to prove it's real?  Would there be a timeline for that?  Or a specific act?

I went through this with two people in my life over 25 years; an ex and a daughter.  My kid was so off the rails that I was constantly stressed, constantly on defense, and MY ATTITUDE was a big catalyst in many of the blowouts.  Because I always expected them and acted accordingly, it kept my ex wife and child on edge as well and their meltdowns were much more frequent.

In other words, I definitely shared a part of the blame because I could rarely relax and just be me.  Doing that made things much more toxic than they had to be though, and I stayed an emotional wreck because of it.  Again, it was miserable and no way to live.

At some point, you have to forgive your spouse and begin to be yourself once again.  The double standard is impossible- asking her to try more while you don't try at all.  I know that may be hard to hear, but it's the truth.  Both of you play a part in this and you must meet her halfway.

[Outdorenthusiast]

At some point, you have to forgive your spouse and begin to be yourself once again.  The double standard is impossible- asking her to try more while you don't try at all.  I know that may be hard to hear, but it's the truth.  Both of you play a part in this and you must meet her halfway.

The forgiveness is mostly easy on 98% of the issues - that is what married people do, and also men do as women struggle with hormonal changes they can’t control etc. - it is life and expected.  Nobody is perfect.  I do own the remaining 2% which still causes the resentment.  That will work itself out eventually one way or another.

However I can no longer forget BPD - it is like the character Neo in the movie The Matrix - I already took the “awake” pill.  I know about BPD.   It isn’t her fault she has BPD, she is trying, but once you know about the matrix, I feel you can’t “unknow” it.   I find myself always geared up appropriately to emotionally not get taken down again.   

I guess I am struggling and asking if there is ever 100% relaxing while residing in the matrix, or is there always this permanent defense mode like I feel….  Or what do other long timers do/feel…

So for me…The only 100% relax and “be me” time with my defenses down is when I am extracted from the matrix and hanging out with my friends and BPD W is not around.  So I am intentional and do it 2-3 times a week, and also intentionally work outside the home to maintain balance.  That gives me the energy to reside in the Matrix.  Is this the life of those awake like me?  What are you like in the matrix?  (Sorry in advance for all the Matrix references - couldn’t think of anything else equivalent…)

[Pook075]

However I can no longer forget BPD - it is like the character Neo in the movie The Matrix - I already took the “awake” pill.  I know about BPD.   It isn’t her fault she has BPD, she is trying, but once you know about the matrix, I feel you can’t “unknow” it.   I find myself always geared up appropriately to emotionally not get taken down again.   

I guess I am struggling and asking if there is ever 100% relaxing while residing in the matrix, or is there always this permanent defense mode like I feel….  Or what do other long timers do/feel…

Think about it this way- replace BPD with cancer or any physical illness.  Would you have the same viewpoint?

When I explain BPD to people who don't know anything about it, I say that it's a condition where someone has heightened feelings.  When they get upset or depressed, they tend to rely more on emotion and less on logic, so their moods can change quickly.  When they become unstable due to insecurity or fear of abandonment, showing them empathy and love makes them feel secure and helps them stabilize.

There are things your spouse deals with that you'll never understand...none of us will.  But it's very well-known how to help them get past these moments.  The negative behavior is tied directly to self-esteem and self-worth, so you soothe those emotions in the moment and help them get past it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, dealing with BPD is a lot better than dealing with cancer.  The immediate changes have to come from you though while the long term stuff comes from her.  Make sense?

[Cat Familiar]

I think I understand what you are feeling, Outdoorenthusiast.

When I fully accepted that my husband has a personality disorder, I realized that the level of intimacy I had hoped to have with him was impossible. I can be far more candid and open with my friends than I can with him. That said, there still is some ability to connect in an open and honest way, but I now automatically monitor my verbal communications in a way I didn’t previously. The upside is that he has far fewer emotional dysregulations resulting from our conversations.

I had to learn how to be authentic to me while simultaneously analyzing the words I spoke. A good tip comes from Socrates in analyzing what one says: “Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?” In doing this, I discovered much of what I wanted to say was not at all necessary. I’m now a person of fewer words and what I do say is likely to be received much better.

I’ve had to grieve the loss of what I thought my marriage (and the person I fell in love with) could be. But there are still redeeming characteristics, and especially now, that there is much less emotional turbulence.

It seems you are seeing things clearly and have adjusted your expectations accordingly. At this point, it’s important to figure out how to be true to yourself.

[Outdorenthusiast]

I think I understand what you are feeling, Outdoorenthusiast.

When I fully accepted that my husband has a personality disorder, I realized that the level of intimacy I had hoped to have with him was impossible. I can be far more candid and open with my friends than I can with him. That said, there still is some ability to connect in an open and honest way, but I now automatically monitor my verbal communications in a way I didn’t previously. The upside is that he has far fewer emotional dysregulations resulting from our conversations.
…
I’ve had to grieve the loss of what I thought my marriage (and the person I fell in love with) could be. But there are still redeeming characteristics, and especially now, that there is much less emotional turbulence.

@Cat Familiar - This is spot on with where I was leading on this thread.  I have reached acceptance of what is, and grieved the “death” of my marriage and what emotionally “could be” (oh so painful..).  Through learning and tools (like you expressed) I have learned how to make things more pleasant without walking on eggshells, and she has learned (and accepted) she has serious problems that directly affect me. 

Interactions can be pleasant, careful honesty can occur at the emotional level of a 10 year old, but it is always with my permanent defensive tools at the ready to avoid ignition, or to quickly dissipate emotional turbulence.   Turbulence is now less.  However, I am more genuine and intimate when I am with friends (and are outside the matrix).

Did you (or anyone else) feel a sizable shift in your heart out of the “unconditional love” category and more into a “care for,” “sympathize for” and “tolerate” category? When you reached this stage?

Maybe I am unique here - Trust (emotional, financial, physical, spiritual) has been crispy burned between us, but that doesn’t stop an underlying humanitarian feeling of care towards someone who can’t help what they have. 

Have you experienced Trust grow back?  Once you learn your own skills, and they recognize their issues and are working on them diligently with their skills, do they fall (crash) off the wagon?  This is probably directly linked to the ferocity of how hard I am “bracing” and keeping an even keel @Kells was referencing earlier.  (I recalculated and it has been actually 7 months of her diligently trying to repair).

[Cat Familiar]

Did you (or anyone else) feel a sizable shift in your heart out of the “unconditional love” category and more into a “care for,” “sympathize for” and “tolerate” category? When you reached this stage?

I don’t know that I ever entered into the “unconditional love” category. Looking back on the evolution (or devolution) of the relationship, it seems like there was a point where I was with the *love of my life* (certainly with flaws and quirks) and then he became this ultra sensitive, self centered, difficult person (someone I certainly wouldn’t have chosen as a husband). Not only was I completely baffled, I was extremely resentful, so it took quite a while for me to have an understanding of what was going on, yet I still harbored hope that the man I fell in love with would return for more than fleeting moments.

The most challenging part of this was letting go of my anger, feeling like I was duped again by yet another partner with a personality disorder (2nd marriage to a pwBPD/NPD). I suppose I was also angry with myself for letting this happen again.

To answer your question more directly: I’ve been on this forum for almost 10 years and I’m just now getting to the point of acceptance and appreciating positive qualities of my husband without feeling lingering resentment.

Maybe I am unique here - Trust (emotional, financial, physical, spiritual) has been crispy burned between us, but that doesn’t stop an underlying humanitarian feeling of care towards someone who can’t help what they have. 

I feel that I can trust my husband financially, that he would not harm me physically, and that he wants the best for me, but I certainly don’t have the trust that I can be fully candid with him about what I think and feel. (This is something that I can do with friends.)

Have you experienced Trust grow back?  Once you learn your own skills, and they recognize their issues and are working on them diligently with their skills, do they fall (crash) off the wagon? 

I know my husband is trying to pursue his emotional growth through a spiritual path, studying Tibetan Buddhism. I cannot speak to his experience, but as the saying goes, “The proof is in the pudding.” Perhaps he is growing emotionally, but viewing it externally it seems it may be at glacial speed.

He is who he is, and that person is emotionally stunted by trauma inflicted by a malignant narcissist father. That said, he has compounded the damage through bad choices and resisting looking honestly at himself. How much personality disorders are genetic, or environmental, I have no idea. But I do believe there is *free will* and through rigorous self-examination and making choices that benefit self and others, a happier life is available to anyone, despite dysfunctional patterns they may be accustomed to.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Outdor-

I hope you’re doing okay.  I really like the thoughtfulness and honesty in this thread. 

It’s such a difficult area of reflection when we have to admit we’ve lost trust in our life partners and the belief in unconditional love has faded or disappeared.  I’ve been diving into the topics of trust and unconditional love, and looking at whether I even believed the latter was realistic in adult love.  But then realized my questioning that was entirely due to 26 years of disordered relationships, where *I* was so deeply loved and “hated” constantly.  Every moment felt conditional because it was.

But my eyes are being opened through something new in the last 2+ months.

The one thing I take issue with is comparing disordered emotions, behaviors and thinking to cancer patients.  I’ve tried and just cannot understand that comparison.  I’ll leave it at that.

The disordered people in our lives will likely always have their limitations, their emotional “disabilities” we could say.  But… in the cases where you have a person (your wife here), who’s reached a state of some recognition… that IS something good.  And @Kells wisely pointed out the very recent nature of you and your wife’s entering into therapies.  I believe you’ve mentioned your wife has acknowledged the hurt she’s caused you over the years.  That in and of itself is unusual, at least from my personal experience as well as what I’ve seen on these boards.

I’m wondering if you’ve seen an increase in honest communication between your wife and you.  Do you believe you’re emotionally *safe* in this relationship?  Or becoming safe because she’s engaging in therapy?  Because maybe that is where you CAN begin to feel hope and your more authentic feelings.

I’m not sure I’m expressing this properly.  I’m trying to say, rather awkwardly, that when you’re both trying to mend and heal and better yourselves and your marriage, is there a way to honestly acknowledge this aloud, without fear… so that you CAN allow *yourself* to feel any and all *good* and hopeful feelings in the moments they arise. 

The best analogy I can give is this.. I come from a family that laughs through the absolute worst of adversity.  Deep belly laughs.  Everyone in my family is funny.  I once had a BF who broke up with me because I “laughed too much”.  Trying to stifle a deep belly laugh would be torture to me, as would holding back an expression of affection, a hug, when I feel that toward someone I deeply love. I know things can turn on a dime at any moment in life, but the happiness in those moments carries me through any pain that may be lurking.  That’s how I’ve always survived the things that have happened. Ugh… I’m afraid I’m not being clear.

Does this make any sense?  Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gems

[Outdorenthusiast]

The one thing I take issue with is comparing disordered emotions, behaviors and thinking to cancer patients.  I’ve tried and just cannot understand that comparison.  I’ll leave it at that.

I concur, and will leave it at that too.

I’m wondering if you’ve seen an increase in honest communication between your wife and you.  Do you believe you’re emotionally *safe* in this relationship?  Or becoming safe because she’s engaging in therapy?  Because maybe that is where you CAN begin to feel hope and your more authentic feelings.

I’m not sure I’m expressing this properly.  I’m trying to say, rather awkwardly, that when you’re both trying to mend and heal and better yourselves and your marriage, is there a way to honestly acknowledge this aloud, without fear… so that you CAN allow *yourself* to feel any and all *good* and hopeful feelings in the moments they arise. 

There is starting to be more honest communication, but if it is emotionally triggering, I need to keep it at a 10 year old level and also keep my tools at the ready to diffuse or buttress the conversation.  So I guess not “safe” emotionally in the sense of being able to let my guard down completely.  But more “accepting” that I know what I am getting and it isn’t her choice that she is like this.  She knows she is emotionally inappropriate.  My authentic feelings truthfully I feel are not something she could 100% absorb.  If I am honest with my feelings I have an underlying simmering of anger/resentment same as @Kat.  However, being angry at someone that can’t help themselves is pragmatically pointless - so I do intense self care exercise when I feel the anger growing.  The “good” and “hopeful” feelings I feel become dangerous emotionally as I have been toyed with emotionally for so many decades.  That is what had to die, and what I had to let go like @Kat.

Does this make any sense?

[HurtAndTired]

Hi Outdorenthusiast,

I can completely identify with what you are going through. Over the 12 years together with my wife, I held on to some modicum of hope that if only she got help, someday we could have a "normal marriage." Unlike your wife, mine has not admitted that her BPD diagnosis is valid and refuses to go to therapy. However, she is finally acknowledging that something is "not right" with her and that she has "anger issues" stemming from her childhood abuse, and things are slowly getting better. This has been in large part due to my strict boundaries and mirroring her dysregulated emotions back at her rather than absorbing them as I previously did, which has forced her to confront her issues instead of using me as an outlet.

TLDR: My marriage has improved enough that I am no longer walking on eggshells and afraid of my wife's rages and dysregulation. This has freed me up emotionally and all of the anger, resentment, and sadness that had been pushed out of the way by fear for many years has now started to surface.

In therapy, I have had a breakthrough and realized that much of what I am feeling is the five stages of grief over the "death" of my hopes for a normal marriage. Although I have moved past the denial and bargaining stages of grief, I keep bouncing back between the anger, depression, and acceptance stages. While I now accept that I can never have a "normal" marriage with my wife, I am still really damn depressed and angry about it. Will I ever completely achieve a place where I am totally ok with not being able to be 100% my true self with her? I don't know, but I suspect not. The question is can the other outlets (like friends and family) where I can be my true self be enough to make up for not being able to have a spouse who can fulfill my need to be truly seen and accepted for who I am, warts and all? I don't have an answer to that yet.

So far, my parents and S3 have been what have been getting me through it. I lean on my folks pretty heavily to share my deepest thoughts, hopes, dreams, and concerns. My son is too young to do that, and it is not appropriate to put that much on a kid even when he gets older. However, the unconditional love we share really helps to fill my cup. My folks, unfortunately, will not always be around and my son will eventually grow up and move out to live his own life. I am trying to rebuild the relationships with my long-time friends so that they can help carry the emotional load as well. I am also very involved with my church and have many close relationships there. Despite all of this, I still mourn not having a spouse who can be the support system that a marriage "normally" entails.

I mourn because I accept that no matter how much she does work on herself (which at this point has been pretty limited) she will never be able to shoulder 50% of the burden in our relationship the way that a "normal" spouse would. Yes, I can lean on her in times of need, to an extent, but her ability to be the strong one when I am weak and empathize and comfort me when I am sad is very, very limited.

I suspect that you are also in mourning. You have lost something immense. This is totally normal and it would be strange if you didn't feel this way. Just as no two people grieve a loss the same way if someone dies, no two people will grieve this type of loss the same way. You need to navigate the grieving process in whatever way it plays out for you. Just remember it is ok to have those feelings of anger, resentment, sadness, and loss. Embrace them. Don't run away from them, and don't feel bad for having them. You have to let the grieving process play out to be able to move past it, however long that takes and whatever it looks like.

HurtAndTired