I'm OK, but what about my child?

[francis02911]

1st post...apologies if this is wrong board. It seemed the most applicable.

So my wife 40-something first started manifesting the full classic array of BPD symptoms a year ago, and was diagnosed as such. She is in and out of treatment, which I guess is typical.  In that time, through reading and thanks to Randi & this organization, I've learned:

• It's not my fault
• I cannot fix it
• I cannot and should not expect any real emotional support from my partner
• I can make my own life better

These realizations have helped a lot, and I'm doing much better emotionally. I don't know whether I'll persist in this relationship, but these thoughts are giving me enough space to think clearly about that decision. 

So here's the problem: we have a 14-year-old adolescent daughter. I'm very worried about her. I have been thinking of trying to inculcate her with my own realizations and behaviors, such as teaching her not to get dragged into my partner's crazy making behavior or enmeshment. But is this the right approach? Is she old enough to develop this skills?  A family therapist might help answer, but it would be difficult for just us two to go without triggering problems with my partner. And if all three of us went, I'm sure my partner would make it all about herself and therefore the therapy wouldn't help anything at all. So what does the community think? Can anyone realistically parent in these circumstances?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear Francis-

Welcome to our community.  I’m sorry for what brings you here, but glad you’ve found us.  Please take your time and explore this site.  There are a LOT of resources to help you on this journey.

It’s one thing for an adult (you) to be faced with a partner with BPD, but far more difficult to have to protect your child / teen from BPD behaviors.  And yes, you’ve got to protect her and insulate her the best you can.

You say your wife is in her 40’s and “first started manifesting  the full classic array of BPD symptoms (and was diagnosed) a year ago... was there some Triggering event to your knowledge?   Did she show periodic symptoms years before the diagnosis?

Has your daughter shown any symptoms at all thus far?  What is your dear daughter’s understanding of her mom’s erratic behavior?  Does your daughter ask you questions?  How is your daughter’s relationship with her mom so far?

I believe it’s crucial for you to maintain as close a relationship as possible with your D, so that she feel comfortable speaking openly with you.  I’m sure you likely already do what you can to foster this relationship.

Have you spoken with your T (therapist) about the best way to handle age-appropriate things with your dear daughter.

Depending on the level of your BPDw’s behavior patterns, I imagine you cannot “pretend” these things aren’t happening.  Your daughter will witness the communication tools YOU use in diffusing conflict.  And you can privately explain to your D why something “works”, i.e. validation.

I understand it’s a long road.  And exhausting...  but it will be much easier for your daughter knowing she’s got your support and love beside her.

I’m sorry for all the questions, but if we know a little more about the dynamics, we can advise a bit better.  Please know there are many members here who have children and teens in the home, so you're NOT alone.

Please keep posting.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes 

[No-One]

Hi  francis02911:  Welcome!
In my opinion, fourteen is not too young to start sharing some things about her mother and to start teaching her some emotional intelligence.  I'm thinking you would be doing her a favor.  The sooner someone starts learning about boundaries and emotional management, the better.  The website link below has some great free versions of worksheets geared for adolescents.  
https://www.therapistaid.com/therapy-worksheets/relationships/adolescents

Check out the exercises for adolescents.   You might want to check them out and possibly share with your daughter, a lesson at a time. A good place to start is to work on boundaries, how to manage anger.

You might, also, find the article in Psychology Today at the link below.  It addresses how to teach your teenager about emotional boundaries
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-moment-youth/201904/teach-your-teen-set-emotional-boundaries

My father had some strong BPD traits.  During my preteen and teen years, he used "the silent treatment" a lot.  No one told me it showed poor emotional intelligence.  

My thoughts are that if you do nothing, your daughter is apt to think your wife's behavior and lack of emotional intelligence is "normal" and could learn some bad behaviors.  Best to use some situations with your wife as teachable moments.  (i.e. don't perpetuate arguments by JADEing - Justifying, Arguing, Defending & Explaining).  It's good for anyone to learn how to manage their feelings and how to handle distress in healthy ways.

[Notwendy]

This is probably going to be moved to the parenting board, but that's ok- the moderators will put it where it fits best. Many of us post on several boards. I'm the daughter of a BPD mother and also have had my own marital issues to work on. I try to post where it may be helpful.

I recommend that your child sees a counselor on her own. Even if this triggers your wife, I think this is a time to consider your daughter's welfare above placating your wife, because in this situation, the person who is most vulnerable is your child and as her parent, she needs you to protect her and look out for her.

I don't think your child will feel comfortable speaking her truth in front of either of you, and especially in front of her mother who would likely fly into a rage if she heard what your daughter had to say. I wanted counseling as a teen to have someone objective, someone who would validate me because what was going on at home was not believable.

Teens need to separate from parents. It is part of becoming their own independent adult. They can do this in hurtful ways sometimes, but they need an adult in their lives to speak their mind to and not react. You can't be that adult as it would put you in the position of triangulating with your wife. Your wife can't do this because of her poor emotional regulation and her inability to put her own feelings aside for the benefit of your daughter.

[francis02911]

Thank you very much Gemsforeyes!

Indeed there are many great resources here.  I'll answer your questions in context below:

>You say your wife is in her 40’s and “first started manifesting  the full classic array of BPD symptoms (and was diagnosed) a year ago... was there some Triggering event to your knowledge?   Did she show periodic symptoms years before the diagnosis?
Yes, I think menopause and a bad fight with her sister may have triggered it for real. But there are some symptoms that, in retrospect, were foreshadowed years ago. Still, the onset was sudden and startling.

Has your daughter shown any symptoms at all thus far?
>Perhaps. There is some catrastophizing and negative self talk. But nothing clinical. She seems better than many teens I know.

>What is your dear daughter’s understanding of her mom’s erratic behavior? 
Originally, she blamed herself. She easily triggers my wife, since for my wife, fearsome rage followed by utter despondency accompanies even the slightest comment that could be creatively construed as criticism. I've been trying to teach her that it's not her fault, and I believe some of that lesson has come across.

>Does your daughter ask you questions?  How is your daughter’s relationship with her mom so far?
She does indeed ask questions now, and we try to talk about it. Their relationship is difficult to watch. My daughter doesn't fight back much, but she does absorb a fair amount of unearned rage, criticism and compulsive orders.

I believe it’s crucial for you to maintain as close a relationship as possible with your D, so that she feel comfortable speaking openly with you.  I’m sure you likely already do what you can to foster this relationship.
>yes. I also do my best to minimize her alone time with my wife and maximize the time we two are alone.

Have you spoken with your T (therapist) about the best way to handle age-appropriate things with your dear daughter.
>I do not have one.

Depending on the level of your BPDw’s behavior patterns, I imagine you cannot “pretend” these things aren’t happening.  Your daughter will witness the communication tools YOU use in diffusing conflict.  And you can privately explain to your D why something “works”, i.e. validation.
>yes, I perceive pretending everything is fine is the absolute worst approach. I do wonder how much to tell her, however.

[Harri]

Hi and welcome! 

You have been getting some great input for everyone  and I do not have much new to add.  I do want to encourage you to continue to try to decrease your daughter's time with her mom and increase yours.  Also, the advice from Notwendy to send your daughter for individual counseling is excellent.  I too had a mentally ill mother and there is no way I would have talked with my mother in the room or if I was not 100% assured that what i said in therapy stayed in therapy.

Here is an article that might help you understand some of what your daughter may be experiencing Have Your Parents Put You at Risk for Psychopathology Having a disordered parent will have an impact on a child.  The question is how much of an impact.  Often the consequences or damage is not apparent until later in life.  The child will appear mostly well adjusted, do well in school and even college, get a good job and then later, things fall apart.  Not always, but it happens.  I mention it only because it can be hard to gauge.

In the meantime, you are dealing with a lot and it is important for you to keep reaching out here and to build a support network for yourself.  We can help with that and we can also help guide you as you leant better ways to cope at home and to help yourself manage. 

What sort of support do you have?

[Panda39]

Hi francis,

I come at BPD from a different angle, my Partner has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) and they share 2 daughters.

I have pulled a link to raising resilient kids from the coparenting board that you might find helpful...

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331459#msg1331459

Validating your daughters feelings is important, listen, ask questions... what do you think? why do you think mom did that?  How do you feel about that? Asking questions and talking with her will help her problem solve.

I'm glad that you are looking at ways you can support her 

Panda39

[francis02911]

Thanks so much to everyone who responded! I'll definitely proceed on getting my daughter her own therapist this summer. But all the ideas and links offered were very helpful to me.

[The Wind]

I'm looking at this myself, although at a much younger age, my daughter is only 3 now, but I can see that she already recognizes that her mother's reactions are different than other people's. She's even began telling me that she doesn't want to tell her mom things, things that she know might upset her, and that breaks my heart, and puts me in a difficult position with transparency with my wife. Nothing major, she's 3, but looking down the road I'm not sure how I feel about that. I on one hand want her to always trust me, and feel comfortable coming to me, but I don't want to create an "us" against her mom mentality either, which seems inevitable because that's the kind of relationships my wife creates because of her erratic behavior.

I was just thinking about this very topic this morning, and wondering how it's going to play out over the years, and how I can best help. I foresee a very strained relationship between the two, just as my wife has with her own mom.

I'll take a look at the links provided by others and start preparing early. For me it will boil down to protecting my daughter and educating her on things like how to react, how to deescalate, setting boundaries, and that her mom's feelings don't always equal facts.

Her mom can be so thoughtful, so loving and patient at times, but often she's dismissive, belittling and antagonizing because she's so wrapped up in her own self loathing and anger that she wants to project on to others.

[francis02911]

Again thanks to all for your support & advice!

I have been trying to focus lately on our group dynamics (wife, son & daughter) as affected by my wife's BPD. Through reading, thinking, adjusting my expectations and enhancing my support network, I've managed to handle my own emotions and expectations and thus better manage my wife.  But are group dynamics are still a problem.

My daughter, as 14-year-olds will do, frequently says or does things that upset my wife. She's actually a very well-behaved and thoughtful child, but my wife is so extremely sensitive, quick to take anything as criticism, catastrophize, split, rage, crazy-make, etc...you all know the drill! At least once a day, she has an episode triggered by my daughter. If we are together all day...well, that's a difficult day.

Now here's the real problem. I'm trying very hard not to trigger my wife by my own words or behavior, so when my daughter does trigger my wife, I react. Sometimes overreact. I can even get angry with my daughter if I'm not careful. But she's just being a teenager, and she isn't doing or saying anything really bad. Rather, the situation is so volatile and my wife's mood is so fragile that I'm sometimes desperate to keep things calm.

In short, I'm trying not to walk on eggshells and doing a good job with myself. But I am training my child to walk on eggshells. It took me all of my adult-ness to adjust my thinking and expectations to this new life. It's not reasonable to expect that that a 14-year-old can get to the same place as me, no matter how much we talk about it. But it's also not reasonable for me to always coercing her never to upset her mom.

So what to do? I just don't see any good answers. My daughter has a therapist, but this I think is more to help the damage done by this group dynamic. Any suggestions on how to change the dynamic itself greatly appreciated!

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi francis-

It sounds like you’ve done some really great work... I know it’s not easy tiptoeing around every word and action. 

Now I don’t know whether this will help at all, but what if you were to sit quietly with your wife (when she’s in a good mood); perhaps take her on a date or walk, and ask her to think back to her teenage days... what were they like?  How did she behave toward her parents?  Was she ever snarky, abrupt or short with her responses when parents asked questions?  Was your W sure of herself or awkward in her body?  Just ask her to explain how she felt about herself when she was a teen (no comparison to your D yet).

THEN remind her that the teen years are uncomfortable, as kids go through so many changes and many are uncomfortable in their own skin.  And many have trouble figuring out how and where they fit in socially.  And it’s up to parents to guide them and assure them that they’re “good enough”.  And remind your W that this phase will NOT last forever.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Birddog]

Is she old enough to develop this skills?

Yes, never underestimate a daughters intelligence.

With mine, being the rock, providing consistency, showing them they have a safe home,  validating them is important and what I had to offer. You can not perfectly insulate them, but can work on skills to help. I try to focus on spouses strengths and build on them, for instance very nurturing with 3 and 5, but smothers the heck out of 10, 12 yr old, so work with healthy boundaries.

My pastor and abuse advocate both said start with “moms going through tough time”. The abuse advocate is anonymous service, engaged them for counseling for the extreme devaluation stuff. Kids are less reactive now, older daughter even gave line one day, “don’t take personally” the really mean thing spouse said to me, I validated my daughter and said there is probably some good wisdom there. Let her know moms going through hard time, I still care about her, and we talked through skills needed for working through problem behavior, feelings about those behaviors, some healthy ground rules.

She is part of the support team.

Your list of bullet points might be things your daughter May need help understanding as well at some point.

[francis02911]

Dear Gemsforeyes,

I will consider carefully what you've said. I have found that talking about serious matters, especially her childhood, with my BPD wife is just about never productive. First of all, she's smart and will figure out pretty quickly that I'm really talking about her current behavior. This will trigger the familiar rage-y backlash, or perhaps a quick slide into the equally familiar helpless & hopeless despondency. But more importantly, I've come to realize the implications of the fact that my wife lives in a constant state of emergency. Even if by some miracle she has a breakthrough and perceives the applicability of her own adolescent experiences to our life today, a new emergency will quickly erase any such moment of clarity, leaving nary a trace.

Nonetheless, I suppose it's worth a try. I'll let you know how it goes. And as always, thanks so much!