7 years of dating and 2 years of marriage later...disaster

[CopperE]

Hi all,

Well pretty much at the lowest point of my life. Met my significant other in college. We dated for over 7 years including moving in together and eventually getting engaged. We have been married for two years and most recently discussed having children before our world fell apart. Looking back now all of the BPD signs were there. Narcissistic mother, adolescent cutting, unplanned pregnancy, worry that I would leave her even after dating for years, emotion = fact, no truly close friends, rampant splitting, difficulty staying at one job, etc. I think I always believed I could fix her situation. We knew there was a power imbalance but we are high-functioning people and I think I did a lot to keep her relatively stable.

So I find out she has been cheating on me for the past 8 months or so on and off with an old coworker. I knew this guy was trouble and addressed the issue with her on a few occasions but that's when the lying really started. Honestly this all was massively precipitated by her wanting children ASAP but me saying we should wait until I was done with school (we are in our late 20s). After reading everything I could about BPD I feel like I understand the entire trajectory of our relationship now. I see her for the scared emotionally stunted child that she is. That thing is I also see who she is at her best and frankly average moments and I still love that person. I have tried very hard not to take any of this personally. So where we are now is in couples counselling and we are also looking for a DBT therapist to get her to. We are both committed as much as we could be at the point to make it work, however, she cannot yet stop communicating with the other person because I guess her condition/abandonment. That was a hard pill to swallow but she has promised no physical contact whatsoever.

However, my biggest fear is that because she has split me black (briefly white after she thought I was really going to leave) that this feeling will last throughout therapy and she will come out healthier but not wanting to save the relationship. Nothing is certain, I understand that, but I would love to hear if anyone's wife went into therapy splitting their husband black but came out of DBT healthier and ready to reconcile.

Any response would mean the world.

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[earlyL]

Hi CopperE,

I am so sorry to read about your situation, that is incredibly tough. I too found out my partner was cheating and she also stayed in contact with the other person and I know how much pain that caused me. I think you have very much arrived in the right place here, you will find lots of brilliant advice and support. I don't have a success story as you have described but there are people here who have made it work, it sounds positive that you both want to continue the relationship, but you also sound realistic to the uncertainty to the situation.

If you don't know about it, I would really recommend reading up on the Karpman Drama Triangle, I found this incredibly useful and helped me get some of my thoughts a bit clearer, it might also help you.

Keep posting and tell us more of the situation if you want to. How did you find out about the cheating - did your partner admit it, did you have any proof? I also had an instinct which was later confirmed and it was a huge mixture of hurt and relief at the same time.

EL

[CopperE]

Thank you for the response EL.

We moved states for me to go to graduate school. We left a strong social network and her previous therapist she was going to for GAD. She began working remote and going back to the city we lived in previously to go work for one week out of the month. Her work friends were more immature and impulsive which played into it all. It also was a sensitive time because she pretty much cut contact with her narcissistic mother, which while it needed to happen, likely caused a serious sense of abondoment as she has always been closer to her mother and her "caretaker". This also sounds silly but the tense US election season also hit her very hard. This all happened within a span of 6 months.

A little after the 6 months is when the affair began. She would travel up to her job for a week and be with him at times. I discovered inappropriate texts he had sent her like 2 months into the ordeal but she denied any wrongdoing on her part and just said the other person was "weird". I trusted her to a fault. Meanwhile grad school is stressful as hell and I am just trying to keep everything together. Anyways my hunch continues to grow because the guy is all over her Facebook and I see his profile on her Snapchat. It wasn't until recently that I waited for her to leave and then checked her messages on her laptop. At that point it was clear. She admitted it. I was totally shocked but calm. Went through the 5 stages of grief pretty quickly. My rational side took over and started searching for therapists because her behavior and thoughts were NOT the person I had known for near a decade.

Looking back like I said all the signs were there. She pushed and pushed for commitment all the way to marriage and then children. While the affair was going on she told me she really wanted children with me so she could start over and really commit to us. The whole thing sounds nuts just typing it.

[CopperE]

So an update. It was rocky there for a few weeks. She felt like she wanted to run away to go party, dance, and presumably be with this other guy for a few months and then come back to me as some kind of friend. The whole thing is just nutty. Anyways we have been doing couples counseling for a few weeks and she has just started DBT. She was heavily complaining leading up to DBT that it would be too overwhelming but when the day came around she dived right in. The strangest thing ever but I guess that's BPD for you. The therapist comes highly recommended so there is hope.

So things are in some ways trending up. For a while after this whole thing exploded I was sure I couldn't make it day to day. Now our horizon seems to be longer. She talks about us taking future trips, children, and other major life events as if we are together, however, who knows how real any of that is. I will say after finding out about the affair her withdrawal from me has intensified. She now shows more love to our cats then me. However, I can tell she is trying to make it work through probably some combination of fear of abondoment, uncertainty about who she is, and hopefully some tangible love for me still. However, she shuns sex and emotional intimacy with me, which I now realize is her tightest form of control and abuse against me. I hope to God she is doing this subconsciously because the pain I have had to endure because of these antics is ridiculous. I now realize my porn addiction is largely because of her withdrawal over the past year or so.

As far as my actions to help stabilize the situation, validating her emotions, suppressing my own emotional dysregulation, and trying to keep enough distractions for her going has helped. A nagging situation is that I have (begrudgingly) allowed her to continue texting the other person. It is abundantly clear he is her current "favorite person" in the most juvenile sense. She has targeted this lowlife because he is able to give her the attention, facile non-judgement, and low emotional burden she impulsively seeks when dysregulated. My hope is that the combination of therapy, stability at home, and escalating healthy boundary setting will influence her to stop.

All that being said, coming face to face and sleeping next to the emotional equivalent of a demon has given me a perverse sense of pride in knowing I can withstand a lot. I know I have pain and abuse that I will have to work though (I got myself my own therapist) and I understand I am by no means invincible but I take what small victories I can. In addition, meticulously going through my emergency No Contact plan has given me peace of mind that I can eject safely if the moment came.

In the end, I sincerely hope she gets better and that we can be a family again, this time much stronger than before.

[CopperE]

Another update in the hopes that my experience helps someone out there.

After she would not stop texting the other person and then began texting about actually meeting up with this person again, I drew a line in the sand. I was done. I asked her for a separation and divorce. She freaked out and had what I can only describe as some sort of psychotic or extremely dissociative episode. Long story short, she left, said she was going to her family's house but ended up spending a whirlwind two days with this other dreadful lowlife all cumulating in her realizing what she had done, to herself and me, and finding now this other person disgusting to be around (she says she enjoyed much more texting and chatting with this other person over social media rather than seeing them in person). Anyways, she left him, went to get health testing, and began to try to ask for forgiveness and get me back. She finally started opening up more to her DBT therapist I found for her. He surmised she may be bipolar. Curiously enough he says he is not interested in making a diagnosis. I find this incredibly perplexing, as I don't know how a negative or positive diagnosis for something like BPD could be in any way counterproductive. My hunch is that he is reluctant to tell her but I may be wrong here. At any rate, he has her doing individual therapy and group therapy every week.

A big education in this whole thing has been the differing roles of psychiatrists and psychologists. Psychiatrists seem much more interested in getting an actual diagnosis and naming the possible issues rather than just advancing with therapy. I have also found the DBT therapist not as interested in involving me with her support at home. I understand I need to respect their therapeutic alliance but I also have to live with her.

Anyways so she has been home for months now. It's clear to me something like BPD or BP is definitely going on. I've let go of having expectations for normal behavior from her for the foreseeable future until she either gets medicated or has more time in therapy. At each major juncture, I have to reevaluate whether I am ready for what lies ahead. I encourage everyone to make decisions not based upon fear, obligation, or guilt but on what is healthiest for their own lives. I'm a fixer at heart so this is difficult to say the least.

It's been a rough ride to put it lightly. My biggest advice to people going through this for the first time is you need to protect yourself and follow your intuition. If you feel like your spouse or partner is acting really strange and emotional abusive then you're probably picking up on something real. People don't change overnight unless there is something building in the background ready to explode like BPD or BP. Be kind to yourself and realize 1) you're not alone and 2) you did nothing wrong. You got thrown into the deep end and have important decisions to make but your life isn't over. Oh, and also get yourself your own therapist, you will need it.

[Tattered Heart]

She finally started opening up more to her DBT therapist I found for her. He surmised she may be bipolar. Curiously enough he says he is not interested in making a diagnosis. I find this incredibly perplexing, as I don't know how a negative or positive diagnosis for something like BPD could be in any way counterproductive. My hunch is that he is reluctant to tell her but I may be wrong here. At any rate, he has her doing individual therapy and group therapy every week.

A big education in this whole thing has been the differing roles of psychiatrists and psychologists. Psychiatrists seem much more interested in getting an actual diagnosis and naming the possible issues rather than just advancing with therapy. I have also found the DBT therapist not as interested in involving me with her support at home. I understand I need to respect their therapeutic alliance but I also have to live with her.

It's pretty common for T to not diagnose someone. Most of the time the reason not to diagnose boils down to several things:

1. The T believes a diagnosis will make things worse. The pwBPD may begin to look up signs and symptoms of BPD and start to manifest new behaviors (My H did this when he learned about BPD from his own research. Within 2 days he began to have suicidal ideation for the first time ever). Or the pwBPD may see that there is no cure for BPD and give up on trying to improve themselves.

2. The T thinks the person may not be ready to hear a diagnosis of a personality disorder. It can rock someone's world to find out they have a serious mental illness.

3. They are now licensed to diagnose. I just learned last week that in my state, family/marriage counselors cannot diagnose despite being licensed counselors. They can suggest diagnosis to another clinicians, but cannot make the official diagnosis. Clinical counselors are able to diagnose though, and the difference between the 2 is very minor. Psychiatrists are considered an MD and can prescribe medications whereas psychologist have masters level degrees or PhDs and dispense meds.

[CopperE]

I have read non-disclosure is common as well. I'm sorry to hear your husband had a negative reaction to the diagnosis. I must say, however that on balance, it's a black mark against the mental health profession honestly. APA guidelines encourage disclosure and the few studies I have found online about BPD disclosure highlight that professional fears regarding negative reactions to a positive diagnosis are unfounded. I think one study had 30-40 patients and only 1 patient took the diagnosis negatively and yet they still continued treatment. I realize every case is different but non-disclosure is so systematic and widespread that it doesn't need to be, given current guidelines and research.

Yes the distinctions are interesting. It's frustrating learning all of this stuff while your world is caving in but its valuable information to know.

As of now I suspect my wife is BP II with borderline traits but I guess we will find out soon enough when she sees the psychiatrist.

[Radcliff]

CopperE,

Let us know how it goes with the psychiatrist.  I was going to ask about that, since if she is BP, I would imagine there would be medication options that should be considered.

My wife is in DBT as well, with a psychologist, who has not diagnosed her with BPD.  I'm a little annoyed, but she is doing regular 1:1 therapy and a weekly skills group, and this is the best treatment possible for her, so I believe that is the most important thing.

WW

[CopperE]

She somehow managed to get out of the psychiatrist appointment by having a work related matter come up at the last minute. She kicked the can down the road another 2 months until the next appointment. My psychiatrist recommended I call the clinic to see if someone cancels so she can get in sooner but I am getting tired of picking up her mess.

I think ladies and gentlemen this relationship has run its course for the time being. Ever since I allowed her back into the home, her urgency regarding getting help and taking our mutual healing together has wained. I have found myself becoming embarrassingly angry towards her, she is constantly low and irritable, she is unable to find the emotional energy and knowhow to comfort me when I feel low about everything, sex with her is no longer fulfilling but merely a temporary flood of dopamine and oxytocin, and she struggles to engage with her support group because she finds talking with friends to be at some level burdensome.

In the event of an affair, I think now it is almost a prerequisite that the other person be somewhat emotionally and mentally stable to have a good chance at reconciliation. That might be somewhat oxymoronic, give that an affair is an immense lapse in healthy behavior, but people make mistakes and yet can rebuild what the once had.

It's hard to reconcile and build back when the other person is in the active throes of suspected BPD, has no idea who they are, is constantly depressed/irritable, willfully admits to finding long-term relationships/friendships difficult, has such a messed up maternal relationship that it has screwed up their entire perspective on love ,etc.

The nature of BPD infidelity is also highly insipid because she admits that there was nothing wrong with the relationship and in fact things were going really well, outside of her demands for children being met with some timing resistance on my end. So when things are calm my mind smacks me with this urgency of "are you sure things are really ok?". It's aggravating.

I am a spiritual man with a penchant for intentional deliberation so I will meditate on this some more. My current plan is to get my leaving plan together, go over it with my psychiatrist and psychologist, and have the conversation with her sooner rather than later. The fear, obligation, guilt, thing is really no joke. She has practically no support network outside of her younger sister and therapist. Her father is emotionally unavailable and her mother is an estranged narcissist. And yet I can't bear this burden and continue to live a healthy life. I feel more like a father to her than an equal husband.

My plan is to tell her I cannot be in the marriage anymore and that if in the future she and her therapy team at the time think she is ready to approach having a relationship again I would be open to hearing from *both* of them if she so chooses and I am still available. Any thoughts from the community on this?

Last time her charming barrage was intense. Phone calls, voicemails, intimating suicidal thoughts. This time I think I could hold fast under a similar campaign (or even NC on her end). What I struggle with is the suicide stuff. I know to just call 911 but I don't want that on my conscience. I also think if we had to see each other in person after NC I would have another person with me. Her seduction level was through the roof when she saw me for the first time.

[Radcliff]

My plan is to tell her I cannot be in the marriage anymore and that if in the future she and her therapy team at the time think she is ready to approach having a relationship again I would be open to hearing from *both* of them if she so chooses and I am still available. Any thoughts from the community on this?

One thought would be to work this through with her in front of a couples counselor.  Any chance you could get her to go?

How is her DBT going?  Is she still actively participating?  I'm sorry if you've said it already, but is she doing 1:1 as well as a DBT skills group?

WW

[CopperE]

One thought would be to work this through with her in front of a couples counselor.  Any chance you could get her to go?

How is her DBT going?  Is she still actively participating?  I'm sorry if you've said it already, but is she doing 1:1 as well as a DBT skills group?

WW

Thanks for the feedback Wentworth, really appreciate it. We have been seeing a couples counselor for a number of months. It's helped to address our communication issues and problems that we have encountered. The couples therapist is pretty good but I don't think she has a lot of experience with couples in our situation. For instance, she admitted she did not realize we were so close to separating when we did initially, which I thought odd at the time because I was at my limit.

My wife has been doing DBT getting close to 4 months now. The group therapy has been going on for about 3 months. My wife enjoys it and I think she is learning a lot. I'm not entirely sure though if she really has been practicing her new coping skills. She was initially enthusiastic about her progress but that has waned some since she has moved back into the home. The problem with a lot the "urgency" I think around everything is that I believe she thinks the therapy is moreso to get over her "mood issues/depression" and the affair because her DBT therapist is not interested in making a diagnosis at this point. That's why seeing this psychiatrist has been such an important step. A diagnosis certainly won't change her behavior overnight but it may lend some more gravitas to what she needs to heal from. Right now I get the feeling she is just doing the therapy to please me, prevent her from having another "break from reality", and get over the affair.

The biggest issues are the compatibility as it related to core values, day-to-day expectations, and life trajectory. My wife has made clear to me she doesn't really know who she is and that she has relied on my stability to mirror values and grow. For instance we wanted children within the next few years but now she doesn't know if she does anymore. With my wife it's very clear to me that unless she is actively infatuated with you she lacks the emotional and perceptive capacity to truly care and practice empathy with other people. She can perform these things but it doesn't seem like it sticks or is truly real most of the time. That includes things like genuinely wanting to know how I am doing (friends as well, whom she struggles to keep up with), being able to help, seeking emotional intimacy, deepening physical intimacy past just trying to get your temporary needs met, developing core values and placing importance on them, taking financial and social responsibility, etc.

Another big issue is it's abundantly clear that she transfers the rage and anger she has towards her recently estranged narcissistic mother towards me. Whether DBT will resolve that quagmire is an open question.

I think most of use who have dealt with a BPD spouse understand we start to feel more like a parent than an equal. We set boundaries, they test them, we love them unconditionally as they struggle, and they are hopefully able to grow and become an emotionally healthy person. My issue is knowing that I have a fixing personality where I often put my needs to the side, that she may need to grow "away" from my influence to truly feel like a whole person, and that I didn't sign up to be a parent.

Listen, I love this woman deeply and I would give almost anything to make this work. I think the problem is feeling like I have forsaken so much of myself and that I deserve stability and true adult love. I am often told this road is a long one and I am not sure I want to wait until I am 40 to suddenly feel like my wife is the person I finally need her to be. It's also doubly hard because she feels like she/we are making a lot of progress. Maybe I should wait until she runs the full course of DBT and reevaluate then. The problem is we had planned to move soon to Connecticut and I need to decide if I will be along for that ride. She will have to find a new DBT therapist and group as well as we adjust to a new town.

[juju2]

Hi

The path is not easy.

Did you say you have a therapist, one familiar w PBD.

There are tools here.  Like you, all our issues seemed to stem from him and his disorder.  What I found, after we separated, was he had issues, I had codependency.  All during our relationship, I was just filling up the bucket called it's his fault again.  I was a victim. 

Now I am doing work on myself, I see a lot of what didn't work was our interaction, our communication.  I had no tools.  I didn't speak up.  I was just a very good victim, someone who was bewildered, and doing a lot to make things worse.  And I could not figure out what I was doing to make things worse.  Also, my family knew about most of our issues, that made it worse for me, I was constantly fighting them, as to why am I still in this r/s.

There is a lot of hope, help, and healing here.

Don't be afraid to look at yourself.

Sincerely, juju

[CopperE]

Hi

The path is not easy.

Did you say you have a therapist, one familiar w PBD.

There are tools here.  Like you, all our issues seemed to stem from him and his disorder.  What I found, after we separated, was he had issues, I had codependency.  All during our relationship, I was just filling up the bucket called it's his fault again.  I was a victim. 

Now I am doing work on myself, I see a lot of what didn't work was our interaction, our communication.  I had no tools.  I didn't speak up.  I was just a very good victim, someone who was bewildered, and doing a lot to make things worse.  And I could not figure out what I was doing to make things worse.  Also, my family knew about most of our issues, that made it worse for me, I was constantly fighting them, as to why am I still in this r/s.

There is a lot of hope, help, and healing here.

Don't be afraid to look at yourself.

Sincerely, juju

I have struggled with codependency, I have now realized. She presented me with nice gift-wrapped problems that I could help with and she made it seem like I was genuinely a good helper. I thought she was growing and that I was a noble and good partner. I think waking up from this dream has been rough. I now realize that my "concept" of love was heavily based upon the belief that what I could do for someone was how I knew they loved me. That if someone could depend on me that would see my inherent self worth and love me even more. I now know that was largely a fantasy and that she was living in her own fantasy as well. One were she could get stability and protection while she struggled to find herself in the world. And her gift-wrapped problems turned into raging monsters.

I no longer want to be a victim and in fact I have rediscovered how much I love myself and how I need to protect myself; which has been part of the issue where that part of me is saying "why are you subjecting yourself to this?".

I've been working on my communication, learning to validate, listen intently and reflect back, and reassure her. And yet I lay down at the end of the day and feel like I deserve more. When I wrote my vows I had no intention of re-parenting my wife or dealing with child-like acting out behavior.

In these early stages of recognizing my codependency and lack of boundaries, I have reclaimed some part of myself that is telling me to do better. I've have a lot of hope and I continue to heal. I am a very patient person, to a fault. It's recognizing when I am approaching that fault line.

I've gone from the true-love believer to Rober DeNiro in Heat ready drop any attachments I can't leave in under 30 seconds if I feel the heat coming around the corner. Now I'm trying to find balance. I will seek more reflection, prayer, and mediation on it. I think another "plateau" of recovery might be the thing I need but I don't want to mess up my expectations.

In any event, I really appreciate the community here. It's gotten me through rough times. I've often wanted to just get drinks with the spouses of those going through the same thing and drink ourselves silly telling war stories.

[juju2]

There is a lot of good to find, finding out I am co dependent, going to al anon meetings, working the steps w a sponsor, doing these things, helps me be healthier.  All this stuff I can use in my entire life.

Also, when i realize I didn't cause it, can't cure it, can't control it, I get freedom.

The more freedom I have, the more the others around me have.  I can allow my loved one to be on his path, wherever that leads.  If it leads back to us, us being in relationship, wonderful.

There are a lot of spaces for me to go thru.

Going thru seems to be all i am doing.

Each hill  when I get to the top, I see there is another hill.  I never graduate, never reach the tippy top.

Falling backwards is ok.  It just means I need to go thru something else.

 Be kind, patient, and loving with myself.  And self care, excellent self care, that's a big one for me.

When I am getting a bad attitude, it's a red flag my self care is lacking.

You can do what you need.  Healing is here.

juju

[Radcliff]

CopperE,

I'm impressed by how introspective and thoughtful you are being about your situation.  Do you see a therapist?  If not, I'll be even more impressed, though I'd say to go get one   I wish I'd been as able to assess and evaluate my situation when I was two years into my marriage.

There may be something to be said for waiting until DBT is complete.  My wife is in DBT now, and the thing you said about her thinking she is improving struck a chord with me.  My wife feels the same way, but may not be fully conscious about how far short of the mark she is falling w.r.t. basic issues of safety for me.  So I'm struggling with my desire to not hurt her, but to do the right thing for myself.

Have you noticed any skills improvements with DBT?  Are you familiar at all with what they are teaching, so that you could look out for usage of particular skills and give her positive reinforcement?

When is the move to Connecticut?  Is it timed with you finishing grad school?  You are not thinking of moving and finishing grad school remotely are you?  When you consider career, your family of origin, and any other personal factors, does Connecticut feel like a good place for you to be?  Would you want to move there if it weren't for her?

WW

[CopperE]

WW,

I "see" a therapist online and a psychiatrist in person. I probably wouldn't be able to afford the psychiatrist if I wasn't in school so I realize I'm in a pretty privileged position to take advantage of both. I don't know what I would have done without them.

I lot of it is also rumination (which is a double edged sword as you might imagine). Things were slowly building in our relationship that seemed odd; she lacked long-term relationships, waning intimacy, her anxiety, conflict avoidance, insecurity that wasn't getting better, and emotional black and white thinking. The affair was the thing that blew everything wide open. The problem in the lead up to all this was that I never thought her inner turmoil was that bad. We've had a great life up to this point.

One of her resentments during this period is that she wanted children very badly and I wanted to negotiate on timing (full time grad school + part time job). I think part of her still believes children would have solved her emptiness/boredom/attention issues but I cannot thank God enough that we have not had children yet. For one I think it just would have postponed this egregious episode and I've heard BPD can really flare up during pregnancy. I've always wanted a big-ish family so now I really have to rethink what a family together could look like. Anyways, I say all that to say, I've probably spent more time introspecting than I should but when the pieces all came together it was like an unholy puzzle that I couldn't look away from.

I'll take what you said to heart about waiting for DBT to be completed. I have familiarized myself with the DBT curriculum and my wife will sometimes come home and tell me about what they have learned. As far as skills improvement, she seems to be more in touch with her feelings and willing to address emotional discomfort. She's still working on bringing important/emotional issues to me because I am usually the one to check-in and ask how she/we are doing. She still shuts down if I even show the slightest bit of anger or irritation. I know she is upset/raging within but she keeps it tight. I have seen a reduction in impulsivity but a lot of it has shifted from very harmful behaviors (texting the affair person, binge drinking) to slightly less harmful (impulsive shopping). I should try and positively reinforce more. I tried doing that when she took a more direct approach in expressing her desire to leave our current state for Connecticut as soon as possible. She got very emotional but I reassured her that I was there to listen and open to what she wanted to do. It's wild because BPD finally gave me a concrete reason why she could never give me the benefit of the doubt nor could she feel like she could compromise. Our fights in recent years had taken on a tone of me as the parent saying no and her as the child struggling to get what she wanted; when I never wanted that role. Anyways I'm rambling.

The move to Connecticut is still up in the air. My intention was to stay in our current state for most of the summer so she could have more time in therapy but she is pushing back against that because she hates it here/it is very triggering to her.

I want to finish graduate school here and make a solid transition. CT feels like a good move. I should add that NYC is also in the mix and she loves cities (always something new to do). For me, I'm more about the opportunity and the people I will be with rather than the place, so I am flexible. We have some family and friends in CT as well as NYC.

The biggest thing for me is making sure she isn't just seeking to distract herself from the growth and healing that needs to happen. I'll be honest, I've mostly ever seen my wife when she has either idealized/devalued me. I'm interested and hopeful that the balance she achieves is something I can love and cherish. I think right now it is hard because she seems so emotionally stunted and cold since she has come back home. Before when we were separated it was full on idealization.  :)oing a big move, taking a new job, and coming home to her the way she is now could be unbearable. Still trying to figure it out.

Thanks WW!

-Copper

[Radcliff]

Copper,

That additional detail helps.  Really, really good job understanding yourself, your wife, and the situation.

Do not be tempted to move until you have all signatures on your dissertation or thesis, and you've been approved for graduation.  It sounds like this is your intent, but I wanted to emphasize it.  Finishing remotely under your circumstances seems dicey.  Don't let her guilt you into moving before grad school is done.  It is not selfish.  It is practical.

As you probably know, having a baby would not have solved things.  My wife and I have three kids.  Pregnancy in our case wasn't out of the ordinary as far as I could tell.  Having babies and toddlers was rough.  I did see BPD symptoms increase.  You are going to want to be confident in the marriage before having kids.

Where is her family located?  Are they healthy enough to be a good influence on her?  Has she ever lived in the NYC/CT area, and does she have a support system there?  Would she be able to find work?

WW

[CopperE]

Copper,

That additional detail helps.  Really, really good job understanding yourself, your wife, and the situation.

Do not be tempted to move until you have all signatures on your dissertation or thesis, and you've been approved for graduation.  It sounds like this is your intent, but I wanted to emphasize it.  Finishing remotely under your circumstances seems dicey.  :)on't let her guilt you into moving before grad school is done.  It is not selfish.  It is practical.

As you probably know, having a baby would not have solved things.  My wife and I have three kids.  Pregnancy in our case wasn't out of the ordinary as far as I could tell.  Having babies and toddlers was rough.  I did see BPD symptoms increase.  You are going to want to be confident in the marriage before having kids.

Where is her family located?  Are they healthy enough to be a good influence on her?  Has she ever lived in the NYC/CT area, and does she have a support system there?  Would she be able to find work?

WW

She has a brother in Massachusetts and a sister in NYC. Parents are divorced. Her father travels a lot and is more of the stoic emotionally unavailable type but he is a really nice guy. Her mother is estranged (and not clear where she is at the moment). She has a strong relationship with her younger sister but her brother is a teenager. The family dynamic is more dysfunctional than usual. They often relied on her to be the go between and hold emotional baggage, even for extended family. She used to have a strong and yet toxic relationship with her udxNPD mother but a few years ago they had a major falling out, my wife went semi-NC, but she hasn't really resolved her anger over her mother. She is till coming to terms with how manipulative and emotionally unavailable her mother was/is. The woman is such a narcissist that when my wife as a teenager told her that she had been cutting herself her mother turned it around and made it about her. Totally shut it down.

She has a job lined up in CT so there will be things for her to do. We have many friends in CT/NYC, however, as I have since learned, our definitions of healthy friendship are a bit different. She seems more content with flighty, off/on friendships with limited emotional support (unless it's a man she can idealize and get to provide her undying attention). Getting her to develop and nurture strong friendships will be really important I think.

Honestly, I have been reading a lot about attachment styles and human development and so much goes back to her unresolved relationship with her parents and particularly her mother. I mean she even told me herself that it's hard for her to understand what true love is when her parents never had it and her "first love" (i.e. her mother) was so awful. In slight jest and seriousness, I do wish we could have discussed this before we walked down the isle. But again, I think these insights are all coming out now given what has recently occurred; hard for her to recognize these things before the fallout.

I do feel a lot of empathy for her and what she has had to deal with. I couldn't imagine growing up with the family dynamic she did. They were a well off family but it just goes to show money can't buy happiness.

-Copper

[ConcernedMan92]

Brother! I feel your pain,

My story is exactly the same as yours, I know her since college and 7 years relationship, later got engaged but when we were just about to get married she broke it off. I found out she has been cheating on me for quite some time. At the point I also tried to make things work, I told her we can talk about things (cheating on me) and move past this. I tried everything to make it work, But later, I realized she was going to do it again anyway so I went no contact for good. She has a friend to check up on me in a monthly basis, and I let her have that cause of the abandonment issues they have.

You are a very strong and mature person, I can tell!

Hope things work out for the best!
Best of Luck Brother! 

[CopperE]

Brother! I feel your pain,

My story is exactly the same as yours, I know her since college and 7 years relationship, later got engaged but when we were just about to get married she broke it off. I found out she has been cheating on me for quite some time. At the point I also tried to make things work, I told her we can talk about things (cheating on me) and move past this. I tried everything to make it work, But later, I realized she was going to do it again anyway so I went no contact for good. She has a friend to check up on me in a monthly basis, and I let her have that cause of the abandonment issues they have.

You are a very strong and mature person, I can tell!

Hope things work out for the best!
Best of Luck Brother!  

Thank you brother, I appreciate that you uniquely understand my situation and are willing to share such kind words. Really means a lot. If someone would have told me a couple years ago I would be dealing with marital issues on this scale I would have laughed them out of the room. All of this has given me such an appreciation for how devastating mental illness can be and yet how people are responsible for the choices they make, no matter their circumstances. All hard lessons but I won't let them pass without internalizing them. As I said again this community has been a life saver.

I will add, hearing everyone's stories on this board and learning about the prevalence of mental illnesses really makes me wish we had more routine mental health screening in this country. If feasible, everyone who hits the age of 25 or earlier should get a mental health screening. It's so stigmatized in this country (US) it's a shame.

Much love -Copper

[juju2]

Hi

Reading your posts again... .

So I am separated now 13 months, I was rash, assumed all our issues were his, I was too overworked, stressed out, didn't have any awareness of my attitude or my reality.
It is like putting your car on autopilot and expecting to end up at Disneyland... .

Also, my self care, non existent.  I am telling you all  this, so you can see what my mental status was and what kind of decisions I would likely make under all of that!

Long story short, my experience is pause, go very slow around long term decisions  when I am under a lot of stress...

There isn't any decision i have to make right now.
No one is on fire... .

In alanon, we say, no life changing decisions for one year, after starting work on 12 steps, going to meetings, being in service and working w others.

When I work on me, my attitudes, my old beliefs, my character defects, amazing things happen!
Other people change when I change... .

This is my experience, strength, and hope.  juju