I know about push-pull, but what about push-push?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

About nine months into my relationship with my exBPDbf, I was exposed to his first real rage. The series of events went like this:

My BF had taken me off his social media page and made it look like he was single. I told him I was uncomfortable with that as I didn't understand why he'd done it, but he reassured me that if any women contacted him expressing an interest, he always immediately said he was in a relationship with someone he adored and was not interested in anything else.

A mutual acquaintance then went on to contact me, asking me if I was single as he wanted to ask me on a date. I explained that I was in a relationship and quite happy where I was, but we chatted for a while. I told my BF straight away that I'd been asked out and I'd turned him down, but again that I'd prefer it if it was clear on our profiles that we were a couple.

His response surprised me. He said "I think you should go out with him". I kept saying I didn't want to, that I was happy where I was. He then spent two days relentlessly trying to talk me into going on a date with this guy, while I stuck to my guns, saying I didn't want to. Here are some of his snippets:

- "You should go for it
. Espcially after your confidence having been knocked
 you could do with a confidence boost
. He is a real catch and I am happy for you to go for it
"

- "Set it up please angel he could not have been more obvious
. Don't just dismiss it. He is a hottie and seemed like a good enough chap"

- "I am here telling you go to dinner to see if there is a conection as I am not at all jealous"

The messages telling me to "go for it" were relentless, and in all the different ways I could think of, I said I didn't want to. Over and over again. Then after we ended up arguing about it one evening, he suddenly started openly flirting with another woman on his social media page where the posts were public. I said I didn't like it and would prefer to be a visible couple, he got nasty. He stated accusing me of flirting with other men, even though I'd just had this one private message from a guy, who I'd turned down quite explicitly. These messages changed from the kind of thing I've pasted above, to things like these:

- "All I have done is let someone believe that although I am with someone that I don't know if I can ever say I would not be interested in them"

- "I took you off my profile to make it easier for you to attract other men"

- "So you can flirt and send messages but I can't?
 I just saw it open right up in that we have our relationship with more equality
"

- "I am (was) over the moon with you as your messages and flirting with another person meant that I was ok to do the same finally"

- "I would never have thought it acceptable if you had not set the tone for that behaviour"

- "now we can both chat online as much as we want without the worry that people will be put off from chatting to us"

I maintained that I didn't want any of this, in fact what I'd asked for all the way through was that I'd like to be acknowledged on his page as being in a couple as I was proud of it, it made me feel good, and I was less likely to get messages asking me to go on dates. He started to push, asking me if I had this guys personal email address etc. Then he got nasty:

- "Ha ha you even have his email address and was clinging earlier to the "I was not flirting" argument you are priceless angel"

- "how many times am I going to have to say do what you want I don't care what you do?
"

And THEN when I stopped the conversation to go to work (this had now been relentless over three days), while I was out he changed his social media profile to say he was single, and actually posted on a dating site to say he was available. Then while I was out I got these messages:

- "Status on social media changed. Hope it was fun and worth it. Because I would have stayed the full term had things not gone the way the have
. I was planning lifelong commitment but you make it too hard
."

- "You throw yourself at this guy like a schoolgirl and expect me to associate my name with yours"

- "I have put up a personals ad - it seemed like a good way to save face after you wanted me to be your boyfriend while you parade around. And had you stopped and actually looked I would have spent forever with you
. I can't do it any more you make this too hard for me
"

- "I really do hope the last few days was fun with him and I think if you want you will still have a chance with him if you are quick. I only hope that You do get together unless the few days of him online was worth more than a lifetime with me
"

- "You will find someone soon enough
. I think if we are honest you knew this was coming
. If you were really honest you knew it when you were messaging him
. Unless you are so naive and socially inept you would have known it would be an impossible situation for me or you had so little respect that you thought it would not matter
".

- "There were far bigger issues than all this. I think those issues will mean you will never settle with anyone if I am honest.You will need to find someone very selfless
. And someone with such a small ego that they will live with being made to feel second to anyone you take a shine to
. I don't think you will ever be satisfied with anyone or anything in your life and I find that heartbreaking
. I was with you for life you know and was willing to put up with a lot but I think you feel the need to push
"

And then as if the distortions weren't enough it descended into utter fantasy:

- "I was your future cuckold. You wanted to see lots of people with me there (setting it up like a good little cuckold). You had no respect for me and you were bringing in people later. I would have been cuckold. Not immediately but it was my destiny with you. If you could show no respect to me now what would change when you brought In other men."

In the end I had to delete and block him as he just wasn't stopping. It was going on all through the night. Again, this came about because someone asked me on a date and I turned them down.

Did anyone else experience anything like this? Is this narcissistic rage? Can anyone else work it out as it still has me stumped.

[Suspicious1]

About nine months into my relationship with my exBPDbf, I was exposed to his first real rage. The series of events went like this:

My BF had taken me off his social media page and made it look like he was single. I told him I was uncomfortable with that as I didn't understand why he'd done it, but he reassured me that if any women contacted him expressing an interest, he always immediately said he was in a relationship with someone he adored and was not interested in anything else.

A mutual acquaintance then went on to contact me, asking me if I was single as he wanted to ask me on a date. I explained that I was in a relationship and quite happy where I was, but we chatted for a while. I told my BF straight away that I'd been asked out and I'd turned him down, but again that I'd prefer it if it was clear on our profiles that we were a couple.

His response surprised me. He said "I think you should go out with him". I kept saying I didn't want to, that I was happy where I was. He then spent two days relentlessly trying to talk me into going on a date with this guy, while I stuck to my guns, saying I didn't want to. Here are some of his snippets:

- "You should go for it
. Espcially after your confidence having been knocked
 you could do with a confidence boost
. He is a real catch and I am happy for you to go for it
"

- "Set it up please angel he could not have been more obvious
. Don't just dismiss it. He is a hottie and seemed like a good enough chap"

- "I am here telling you go to dinner to see if there is a conection as I am not at all jealous"

The messages telling me to "go for it" were relentless, and in all the different ways I could think of, I said I didn't want to. Over and over again. Then after we ended up arguing about it one evening, he suddenly started openly flirting with another woman on his social media page where the posts were public. I said I didn't like it and would prefer to be a visible couple, he got nasty. He stated accusing me of flirting with other men, even though I'd just had this one private message from a guy, who I'd turned down quite explicitly. These messages changed from the kind of thing I've pasted above, to things like these:

- "All I have done is let someone believe that although I am with someone that I don't know if I can ever say I would not be interested in them"

- "I took you off my profile to make it easier for you to attract other men"

- "So you can flirt and send messages but I can't?
 I just saw it open right up in that we have our relationship with more equality
"

- "I am (was) over the moon with you as your messages and flirting with another person meant that I was ok to do the same finally"

- "I would never have thought it acceptable if you had not set the tone for that behaviour"

- "now we can both chat online as much as we want without the worry that people will be put off from chatting to us"

I maintained that I didn't want any of this, in fact what I'd asked for all the way through was that I'd like to be acknowledged on his page as being in a couple as I was proud of it, it made me feel good, and I was less likely to get messages asking me to go on dates. He started to push, asking me if I had this guys personal email address etc. Then he got nasty:

- "Ha ha you even have his email address and was clinging earlier to the "I was not flirting" argument you are priceless angel"

- "how many times am I going to have to say do what you want I don't care what you do?
"

And THEN when I stopped the conversation to go to work (this had now been relentless over three days), while I was out he changed his social media profile to say he was single, and actually posted on a dating site to say he was available. Then while I was out I got these messages:

- "Status on social media changed. Hope it was fun and worth it. Because I would have stayed the full term had things not gone the way the have
. I was planning lifelong commitment but you make it too hard
."

- "You throw yourself at this guy like a schoolgirl and expect me to associate my name with yours"

- "I have put up a personals ad - it seemed like a good way to save face after you wanted me to be your boyfriend while you parade around. And had you stopped and actually looked I would have spent forever with you
. I can't do it any more you make this too hard for me
"

- "I really do hope the last few days was fun with him and I think if you want you will still have a chance with him if you are quick. I only hope that You do get together unless the few days of him online was worth more than a lifetime with me
"

- "You will find someone soon enough
. I think if we are honest you knew this was coming
. If you were really honest you knew it when you were messaging him
. Unless you are so naive and socially inept you would have known it would be an impossible situation for me or you had so little respect that you thought it would not matter
".

- "There were far bigger issues than all this. I think those issues will mean you will never settle with anyone if I am honest.You will need to find someone very selfless
. And someone with such a small ego that they will live with being made to feel second to anyone you take a shine to
. I don't think you will ever be satisfied with anyone or anything in your life and I find that heartbreaking
. I was with you for life you know and was willing to put up with a lot but I think you feel the need to push
"

And then as if the distortions weren't enough it descended into utter fantasy:

- "I was your future cuckold. You wanted to see lots of people with me there (setting it up like a good little cuckold). You had no respect for me and you were bringing in people later. I would have been cuckold. Not immediately but it was my destiny with you. If you could show no respect to me now what would change when you brought In other men."

In the end I had to delete and block him as he just wasn't stopping. It was going on all through the night. Again, this came about because someone asked me on a date and I turned them down.

Did anyone else experience anything like this? Is this narcissistic rage? Can anyone else work it out as it still has me stumped.

[balletomane]

I could almost hear my ex's voice when I read parts of that. There was one occasion when he decided that I was secretly bisexual and was in love with a close female friend and he spent ages angrily pushing and pushing at me to 'admit' my crush on her. I'm not bi and wouldn't have a problem with it if I was, but I couldn't admit to being something I'm not, so I kept saying that it wasn't true. He took my refusal to admit it as proof of my deceitfulness and my untrustworthy nature and decided that I was probably cheating on him with my French tutor, as I hadn't told him about my day in enough detail, and therefore I must be sneaking about having relationships with other people and hiding the evidence. While he eventually accepted that I wasn't cheating on him, he still thought it was my fault that he had had these suspicions - to him they were a natural reaction to me being "uncommunicative". Now, communication is not something anyone has ever suggested I struggle with before, and I was baffled. I just couldn't see where I had been uncommunicative. But his insistence made me doubt myself and so I ended up apologising for my poor communication and promising to do better.

I don't know if your ex is the same, but mine was perpetually frightened of things going wrong and when the fear got bad enough he would self-destruct and sabotage the situation. He just couldn't trust that it would be OK. I think this stemmed from his fears of neglect and abandonment - he was sure that I would hurt him someday, leave him someday, so he was always hyper-vigilant for warning signs and he started to see them where they didn't exist. In the end, so sure that I would abandon him, he decided to jump before he was pushed (self-sabotage). Maybe your ex was similar.

[HappyNihilist]

Suspicious1, I don't blame you for feeling stumped by your exbf's behavior and rage. A lot of BPD behavior is confusing and hard for us to understand, especially "in the moment" within the relationship.

I think it's helpful to look back from a distance and apply what you've learned. When you have a clearer understanding of the dynamics, it allows you to have a clearer understanding of how you fit into them.

I'm sorry you had to deal with the rage and crazy-making.   There seems to be a lot going on here.

First of all, he set up an 'lose-lose' situation for you - if you'd dated the guy, the end result (him angry and leaving) would most likely have been the same. This is not uncommon in pwBPD. It comes from the borderline feeling strong negative emotions (like jealousy) and then trying to manipulate someone else in an attempt to feel better about themselves. It could be that he was feeling triggered and jealous (some guy hit you up for a date), and then he set up this situation for you. If you date the guy, then voila!, his anger and jealousy is validated.

I'd like to say, you showed great strength and self-awareness by 'sticking to your guns' and doing what you believed was right, protecting your values - in the face of his relentless barrage. 

There also seems to be an underlying desire on his part to date other women. This isn't personal against you or the relationship. It doesn't even mean that he actively planned to cheat - just that the desire was there. He started this by making himself 'single' - his status change was the reason the guy contacted you in the first place. I'm sure he didn't think it would work out that way, that you would be the one who got asked out first! So not only is he jealous that someone wanted to date you, but he's also probably upset that his plan backfired on him. That only adds to the rage and push.

My BF had taken me off his social media page and made it look like he was single.

"All I have done is let someone believe that although I am with someone that I don't know if I can ever say I would not be interested in them"

"I am (was) over the moon with you as your messages and flirting with another person meant that I was ok to do the same finally"

He gives away a lot of his motivation here.

"Ha ha you even have his email address and was clinging earlier to the "I was not flirting" argument you are priceless angel"

I can truly hear my own exBPDbf saying this.   

It's part of the no-win situation. "Because you did X, your position and argument is completely invalid."

"Status on social media changed. Hope it was fun and worth it. Because I would have stayed the full term had things not gone the way the have
. I was planning lifelong commitment but you make it too hard
."

"I only hope that You do get together unless the few days of him online was worth more than a lifetime with me
"

Rational, emotionally healthy people do not abandon 'lifelong commitment' because their partner was asked on a date - especially if the situation arose because of actions the other partner took. But no, it's all your fault - you make it too hard, you squandered a happy eternity with him.

It sounds like he couldn't handle the emotional turmoil that this whole situation caused him - along with the fact that this was of his own doing - and so he had to push that onto you.

"I have put up a personals ad - it seemed like a good way to save face after you wanted me to be your boyfriend while you parade around."

"And someone with such a small ego that they will live with being made to feel second to anyone you take a shine to
."

This sounds like narcissistic injury - with the resultant need to 'save face.' He made himself feel 'second' to someone else. But he doesn't see it that way - you must be the cause of him feeling humiliated and inferior.

"I don't think you will ever be satisfied with anyone or anything in your life and I find that heartbreaking
."

I read a lot of projection in this.

The truth is that he will never be satisfied by anyone or anything. And it is heartbreaking.

I don't know if your ex is the same, but mine was perpetually frightened of things going wrong and when the fear got bad enough he would self-destruct and sabotage the situation. He just couldn't trust that it would be OK. I think this stemmed from his fears of neglect and abandonment - he was sure that I would hurt him someday, leave him someday, so he was always hyper-vigilant for warning signs and he started to see them where they didn't exist. In the end, so sure that I would abandon him, he decided to jump before he was pushed (self-sabotage). Maybe your ex was similar.

My exBPDbf was the same, and it's a common theme among people with BPD or BPD traits. The self-fulfilling prophecy, conditioned since early childhood - love is something that hurts and loved ones will abuse/leave you, so you are always looking for signs that each partner is planning to do the same, eventually convincing yourself that they are, and sabotaging the relationship in some way.

It's a sad cycle, and being involved in that cycle can be emotionally devastating. I'm glad you're doing so well with your healing and detaching process, Suspicious1. 

[Suspicious1]

You lot are truly wonderful. At the time this happened, I was utterly confused. With the benefit of some calm thinking after the onslaught had stopped, I could see quite clearly that it was driven by jealousy, and yes, @balletomane, he did seem to have to push the self-destruct button every so often.

I'm not convinced he was out to attract other women at the onset: there was more of a victim-like tendency to his behaviour - a kind of "if you won't move in with me, marry me, have my children, give up your individual social media profile and merge with me in a couples one, then you're not going to be on my one AT ALL and if other women contact me then IT'S YOUR FAULT". Nobody likes me, everybody hates me, etc. Another example of his self-destructive tendencies - if he wasn't getting exactly what he wanted, he'd tantrum and make himself a total victim.

That said, I did begin to suspect that what he was accusing me of were the things he was doing himself. He went on and on and on about how I'd enjoyed the ego-stroke of having this guy contact me, and yeah, of course it's flattering when someone asks you out. Of course it is. But I suddenly realised that he must be getting messages from women and despite saying "I'm in a relationship and I adore her", I bet the messages went on to say "but actually I really like you too and you're the one person who could tempt me away because she's actually not very nice to me and I HAVE to say I adore her otherwise she gets jealous". Or something. I've seen that kind of tactic from him before.

Now, communication is not something anyone has ever suggested I struggle with before, and I was baffled. I just couldn't see where I had been uncommunicative. But his insistence made me doubt myself and so I ended up apologising for my poor communication and promising to do better.

I very much get this. I was suddenly being accused of all sorts of character faults that had never been an issue for anyone else before. His one, that came out of nowhere, was that I expected the world to revolve around me, and even with my friends I had to be the central person in their lives. Now, I'm an extreme introvert. Really, apart from a handful of people who are very close to me, I'd rather be pretty much invisible to other humans. And even though I KNEW the things he was saying about me were untrue, I thought "this person really loves me. He can see the things other people have never been able to tell me, and I ought to be grateful that someone cares enough to point these things out and help me become better". That was how low my self-esteem had become, and I want to weep for that person I was back then. I look back and see how crushed I'd become.

Yes, he was afraid of abandonment, and would push others away first before they left him. He was terrified of being the "dumped", rather than the "dumper" so if he got wind that things might be going badly, he'd get in there first. Perhaps another narcissistic trait?

@happynihilist, you have great insight. I think, rather than to actively date other women, he felt a need to have people ready in the background in case I left him. As soon as I looked like I might be backing off, he was in there, ready to pick up someone he'd been grooming. I think he was terrified of being alone. I also think it gave him an ego boost to be able to present to the world a situation where it looked like I was doing all the running after him, but he wasn't all that interested. He loved to make it look like he was popular with lots of women.

This place really helps me see things more clearly. I agree that a LOT of what he was saying there was projection, and I can tell from that interchange that he was chatting to lots of women online, enjoying the ego stroke and making them believe there might be a chance. I also suspect (from his cuckold comments) that he was planning to have affairs down the line. I know he did this with his ex-wife - through their 20 years together, he had a lot of other relationships. Why would he have been any different with me? I also suspect he's lining up the same for his next girlfriend, as I know he's been with someone for a few months but I can see he's still putting feelers out there on social media, despite saying he's not looking for any relationships.

His obsession with not being made a fool of, being convinced I was flirting with others, telling me my behaviour shamed him, wanting to get in there and dump me first, and making a big public display of being the one who left me - these all tell me that his ego must have been incredibly fragile and he must have spent such a lot of time terrified of being left. He did openly admit to me that he dumped me first if it looked like I was going to do it to him.

The healing process continues. I stayed for another three rounds of rages. It really helps to unpick them on here.

[Lilflower]

Suspicious1,

you and I have such similar experiences. We are all on here to get help and help each other and this post has done just that for me.  I won't go into every detail of the last day with my ex but he said some of the same things, such as , I should have seen this coming. (Sadly I did not).  When I look back with the knowledge I have now I think he may have felt threatend by a male friend who asked me to get his cat adopted because he no longer wanted it.  I openely told my ex.  A few days later he mentioned, "don't think this guy is contacting you about a cat".  Since I saw it bothered him so much I (stupidly) told him after I took care of the adoption I would not speak to him again because he meant more to me than that friendship.  I thought that was enough and never gave it another thought. It was within weeks that we had our first push pull but I thought he was grieving the anniversay of his brother's passing.  I gave him alot of space and let alot of out of character behavior go because of that.  So when he stopped talking to me for the second time I did not contact him for 3 full weeks at all.  Then I text him we should talk and i was coming over.  Well he went at me like a shark attack.  I didn't know why it was so fierce.  When I showed up he was home but would not let me in the door.  When i think about it now, and know that he married someone within a year of us breaking up, I thnik she was there! She must have witness the whole crazy fight.  He got in his car and drove away, told me he would call the cops if I didnt leave.  He yelled that i had done this (projecting) and I should have seen it coming.  3 weeks of no contact to a pwBPD is a long time. He probably had the gf by then.  I am so embarrassed if she witnessed all of that and I looked like such a fool but I have to believe by now she has experienced the real him. 

Anyway, I can relate and it was so confuisng in the moment... all the crazy things that were said and how it was my fault.  it took a long time to make snese of it and reading your story brought back strong memories of that last day and knowing what I know now I can see it clearer.  Just sucks I didn't know someone else was in the picture because I would have never have tried to talk to him again.