New Beginnings & Boundaries 7...

[MaroonLiquid]

I will continue here.  Here is the previous thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=274246.0

Maroon, what are your priorities here?

Fighting with her over whether you will sign a waiver of service is really ludicrous.

If you have clearly told her that you won't sign it, and stick to that message, then you are at least being consistent.

But really... .what are you trying to accomplish by being stubborn about this? Do you think that making her pay something around $100 to have you served will accomplish anything?

Step back from the 'game' she's trying to make this into... .and is having fairly good luck at getting you at least worked up, if not downright engaged on it.

What is your 'winning' scenario where you get what you want with your wife? And how is it different from what your wife wants?

From what you say, she doesn't sound interested in dating / replacing you. And you don't sound very interested in moving back in with her, 'tho she sounds afraid of it while dysregulated.

I guess I don't understand your question.  im not involved in her game or at least I don't think I am.  My winning scenario is having a r/s with my wife.  I don't know what she wants.  She is very contradictory.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[KateCat]

Gee, I've been watching your threads thinking that if Charlie Sheen ever needs further lessons on "WINNING!" he might consult your wife.

It makes sense to me that at this point, when you've decided firmly not to sign the waiver of service, you stick with that decision.

But she seems to win no matter what she does: she wins an ardent younger man, devoted to her, her kids, her projects and household chores. If all you want is to have a relationship with her, then you've probably got it.

Sorry to sound like nothing more than GreyKitty's echo, but what's the struggle?

Is this values-related, such that you won't have a sexual relationship with her if she divorces you? Now that I can understand.

[123Phoebe]

I will continue here.  Here is the previous thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=274246.0

Maroon, what are your priorities here?

Fighting with her over whether you will sign a waiver of service is really ludicrous.

If you have clearly told her that you won't sign it, and stick to that message, then you are at least being consistent.

But really... .what are you trying to accomplish by being stubborn about this? Do you think that making her pay something around $100 to have you served will accomplish anything?

Step back from the 'game' she's trying to make this into... .and is having fairly good luck at getting you at least worked up, if not downright engaged on it.

What is your 'winning' scenario where you get what you want with your wife? And how is it different from what your wife wants?

From what you say, she doesn't sound interested in dating / replacing you. And you don't sound very interested in moving back in with her, 'tho she sounds afraid of it while dysregulated.

I guess I don't understand your question.  im not involved in her game or at least I don't think I am.  My winning scenario is having a r/s with my wife.  I don't know what she wants.  She is very contradictory.

How does, "My winning scenario is having a r/s with _____________ "<------ (her name, not title), sound when you say it out loud?  

It seems as if she truly does want to have a relationship with you, Maroon.  To me, from her vantage point it just looks and feels different, because she's a different and separate person from you.  She's not just Maroon's "Wife".  She's a woman, with her very own separate identity including her own thoughts and feelings.

To be honest, I feel pretty invalidated for her.  It just seems as if you're totally blowing her off.  I think she's been pretty consistent and open actually.  She's come right out and said, ""Sometimes I think we're better friends than married, don't you?", with your reply being a firm "No".

She was pretty affectionate before finding out (through her lawyer, not you), that you hadn't actually signed the papers.  I'm thinking that some of your comments were rather vague in that regard, with your overall theme sticking to you not wanting the divorce.  Not much in the way of why either of you feel the way you do about it.  Almost like a power struggle.

Can you not be in a relationship with her, if you're not married?  

[KateCat]

Can you not be in a relationship with her, if you're not married?  

Maybe this is the truth you need to know for yourself and express to your wife.

[MaroonLiquid]

I will continue here.  Here is the previous thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=274246.0

Maroon, what are your priorities here?

Fighting with her over whether you will sign a waiver of service is really ludicrous.

If you have clearly told her that you won't sign it, and stick to that message, then you are at least being consistent.

But really... .what are you trying to accomplish by being stubborn about this? Do you think that making her pay something around $100 to have you served will accomplish anything?

Step back from the 'game' she's trying to make this into... .and is having fairly good luck at getting you at least worked up, if not downright engaged on it.

What is your 'winning' scenario where you get what you want with your wife? And how is it different from what your wife wants?

From what you say, she doesn't sound interested in dating / replacing you. And you don't sound very interested in moving back in with her, 'tho she sounds afraid of it while dysregulated.

I guess I don't understand your question.  im not involved in her game or at least I don't think I am.  My winning scenario is having a r/s with my wife.  I don't know what she wants.  She is very contradictory.

How does, "My winning scenario is having a r/s with _____________ "<------ (her name, not title), sound when you say it out loud?  

It seems as if she truly does want to have a relationship with you, Maroon.  To me, from her vantage point it just looks and feels different, because she's a different and separate person from you.  She's not just Maroon's "Wife".  She's a woman, with her very own separate identity including her own thoughts and feelings.

To be honest, I feel pretty invalidated for her.  It just seems as if you're totally blowing her off.  I think she's been pretty consistent and open actually.  She's come right out and said, ""Sometimes I think we're better friends than married, don't you?", with your reply being a firm "No".

She was pretty affectionate before finding out (through her lawyer, not you), that you hadn't actually signed the papers.  I'm thinking that some of your comments were rather vague in that regard, with your overall theme sticking to you not wanting the divorce.  Not much in the way of why either of you feel the way you do about it.  Almost like a power struggle.

Can you not be in a relationship with her, if you're not married?  

How does getting a divorce from me tell me she wants to have a relationship with me?  I don't know that I can have a relationship with her outside of marriage.  She doesn't get her cake and eat it too!  That's completely invalidating to me.  Why do my feelings not matter in any of this?  In other words, "You're good enough to sleep with... ."  I'm sorry that's BS... .

[MaroonLiquid]

I guess I don't understand your question.  im not involved in her game or at least I don't think I am.  My winning scenario is having a r/s with my wife.

Be more specific, what kind of r/s you want with this contradictory woman. Nuts and bolts daily life specific.

You could move back in with her, be an emotional punching bag, and support her financially, the way you did prior to being kicked out. (Guessing that doesn't appeal much... .and don't think she wants it either.)

You could continue living apart from her, but still spend a fair bit of time with her and her kids, just like today. (Complete with dysregulations and silent treatment and divorce threats)

I'm not trying to be a pain here... .but either of those things qualifies as "having a r/s with her".

Paint me a picture of a plausible scenario with your wife being who she is today... .that would be how you want to live with her in your life.

I dont know.  Who she is today isn't healthy and I'm to blame for everything.  That isn't healthy.

[KateCat]

I don't know that I can have a relationship with her outside of marriage.

Is this a discussion you can have with your wife, like right now?

[formflier]

So... .just so everyone knows where I'm coming from... .I've faced a bazillion divorce threats... .no papers that I know about.  I've had lawyers call my house to return my wife's calls to them... ."found" lawyer papers that my wife has left out.

But... .my plan... .if ever faced with it... .would be to not participate... .up until not participating would seriously impact my future (like kids and stuff).  Basically... .if my wife wants to divorce me... .she would get no help from me in doing that.  She would have to own that decision.

My stance on that is based on a vow I took to preserve the marriage.  There was nothing in the vow that said if she got BPD... or if she wanted out... .it just doesn't work that way for me.  My vow is to God to protect the r/s that he has placed in my life (totally get that lots of people see things differently... again my view).

So... .(Maroon correct me if I'm wrong)... .I am under impression that Maroon has some similar thoughts, stances, beliefs on marriage. 

I'm seeing this as a values based decision... not a power struggle.

However... .my value could be blinding me to this as well.

So... .if it was me... .the practical purpose behind not signing... .is to not go against my values.  For me... .it would seem like signing is "helping" this thing move along.

Totally not saying others are wrong... just explaining my side... .and what I am getting from Maroon (but could be wrong)

Also... .when I see lots of people saying the plan that I basically have is not good... .or invalidating... .or not going to work out... .I really want to understand their point of view.

FF

[KateCat]

Kudos to both formflier and Maroon Liquid for excellent values!

It seems there are two very different wives here, based on their marital histories. Formflier's wife ain't goin' nowhere. Maroon Liquid's wife has already completed one divorce (I think) and looks set to work another.

ff, if your wife were actually moving through the court process of divorce, what do you think you'd be saying or doing to honor your values? Do you think Maroon will still have time to do those things even after he is legally served?

I fear that his wife will feel he is continuing to blow her off. And she seems a woman of some determination.

[MaroonLiquid]

So... .just so everyone knows where I'm coming from... .I've faced a bazillion divorce threats... .no papers that I know about.  I've had lawyers call my house to return my wife's calls to them... ."found" lawyer papers that my wife has left out.

But... .my plan... .if ever faced with it... .would be to not participate... .up until not participating would seriously impact my future (like kids and stuff).  Basically... .if my wife wants to divorce me... .she would get no help from me in doing that.  She would have to own that decision.

My stance on that is based on a vow I took to preserve the marriage.  There was nothing in the vow that said if she got BPD... or if she wanted out... .it just doesn't work that way for me.  My vow is to God to protect the r/s that he has placed in my life (totally get that lots of people see things differently... again my view).

So... .(Maroon correct me if I'm wrong)... .I am under impression that Maroon has some similar thoughts, stances, beliefs on marriage. 

I'm seeing this as a values based decision... not a power struggle.

However... .my value could be blinding me to this as well.

So... .if it was me... .the practical purpose behind not signing... .is to not go against my values.  For me... .it would seem like signing is "helping" this thing move along.

Totally not saying others are wrong... just explaining my side... .and what I am getting from Maroon (but could be wrong)

Also... .when I see lots of people saying the plan that I basically have is not good... .or invalidating... .or not going to work out... .I really want to understand their point of view.

FF

This is exactly the way I see it.  I'm not standing in her way, but this is her deal.  Why should I make it easy for her?  I didn't ask for this.  She dysregulated 10 months ago and caused all this.  And yet I'm made out to be the bad guy?  How is that not invalidating?

[KateCat]

Why should I make it easy for her?

I think the thing that might make it hard for her is you clearly expressing the consequences to your relationship of a completed divorce.

[Grey Kitty]

She dysregulated 10 months ago and caused all this.  And yet I'm made out to be the bad guy?  How is that not invalidating?

Maroon, you sound defensive and using some twisted thinking here. If you are being invalidating, it doesn't mean that your wife isn't.

Your wife is unreasonable, frequently dysregulated, playing nasty games with you to get your money, is often invalidating with you, etc., etc., etc. She has a mental illness. I know that. And I'm not communicating with her about how to better handle her marriage... .and I'm not calling her on her crap. Nor am I denying any of it.

How does getting a divorce from me tell me she wants to have a relationship with me?  I don't know that I can have a relationship with her outside of marriage.  She doesn't get her cake and eat it too!  That's completely invalidating to me.  Why do my feelings not matter in any of this?  In other words, "You're good enough to sleep with... ."  I'm sorry that's BS... .

Her thinking is confused and distorted, and bounces back and forth. You have described how loving and appreciative she is... .in between divorce threats and dysregulations. The 'good' times are the evidence that she wants a relationship with you. That is why you have a chance at saving your marriage, and mine is over. (Even though filing papers is farther away for me.)

And that doesn't mean that your wife is offering you something good enough to be worth saving--that is YOUR choice. At least for now, until she gives up 100% on it.

I'm writing suggestions for you, things you can do on your side of the fence. Even if she is behaving 500X as badly as you are, I'll still point out the area you can improve.

I asked you for a "winning scenario" for you... .one that has some chance of improving your r/s enough to get your wife into a couple years of therapy... .rather than one that would require the result of two years of therapy on her part to be possible.

I dont know.  Who she is today isn't healthy and I'm to blame for everything.  That isn't healthy.

If this is your best answer of what you want with her, perhaps divorce is your best plan?


You do sound like you are getting really upset by her latest round of moving closer toward divorce. A week or two ago, you sounded a lot more at peace with your situation than you do now.

[MaroonLiquid]

Honestly, I am at peace.  I do want a relationship with her.  II love her very much.   just wish we didn't have to go through a divorce to get it.  Today, I am at home with some pretty bad kidney issues and my wife met me with some medicine. 

[formflier]

Kudos to both formflier and Maroon Liquid for excellent values!

It seems there are two very different wives here, based on their marital histories. Formflier's wife ain't goin' nowhere. Maroon Liquid's wife has already completed one divorce (I think) and looks set to work another.

ff, if your wife were actually moving through the court process of divorce, what do you think you'd be saying or doing to honor your values? Do you think Maroon will still have time to do those things even after he is legally served?

I fear that his wife will feel he is continuing to blow her off. And she seems a woman of some determination.

My only reason for explaining all of that... .was about the decision to sign the waiver.  For me... .and it seems like for Maroon... that would be "participating" in a divorce.

So... yes... .two very different wives... .but two similar hubbies... .based on attitudes about divorce and some other religious elements. 

And listen... .if others have arguments, points, reasoning... .of why the waiver SHOULD be signed... .I'm all for listening... .to make sure I'm not missing something.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

This isn't supposed to be a debate... .and I'm not saying that Maroon should sign the waiver.

I believe that stonewalling his wife about this issue is invalidating to her, and that is working against his stated goal to repair/rebuild his marriage.

[MaroonLiquid]

This isn't supposed to be a debate... .and I'm not saying that Maroon should sign the waiver.

I believe that stonewalling his wife about this issue is invalidating to her, and that is working against his stated goal to repair/rebuild his marriage.

Honestly, you aren't the first person to say this.  My family thinks it would send a message.  But that is not my goal.  Repairing and rebuilding my r/s is.

[Grey Kitty]

This isn't supposed to be a debate... .and I'm not saying that Maroon should sign the waiver.

I believe that stonewalling his wife about this issue is invalidating to her, and that is working against his stated goal to repair/rebuild his marriage.

Honestly, you aren't the first person to say this.  My family thinks it would send a message.  But that is not my goal.  Repairing and rebuilding my r/s is.

I agree with your family--not signing sends a message. I don't think the message is one that will get a positive response from your wife. You haven't reported any positive responses from her upon receiving this message.

So what actions do you intend to take that will help your r/s instead of harming it (and invalidating your wife)?

[sweetheart]

Hello ML,

What is clear is that repairing and rebuilding your relationship is your primary goal. What is not clear is how you are going to do this or what your vision of this will look like.

It might be this lack clarity and ?confusion? from you that is triggering your wife and in a way you.

If you take her filing for divorce as a communication signalling the end of your marriage that was, this seems to me a clear communication about what your w no longer wants your marriage to be. It would be fair to conclude then that she does not want to go back to that and neither do you.

Perhaps in a way you are both being triggered because neither of you are clear what your relationship looks like moving forward and that is causing fear and anxiety for you both.

Fear that blocks you finding a way to get underneath the real meaning/message behind the divorce and fear for your wife because you might not hear her if she expresses herself in a less destructive way than asking for a divorce.

[MaroonLiquid]

Very true sweetheart.  I told my wife that I was sending off the form tomorrow.  She was upset at first, and I apologized for being a jerk.  I told her I was being selfish and that I thought that because things were going so well, that we could work through our differences.  I left it at that.  I'm really at peace with this whole thing, just realize that I figured if I made it more difficult, she would realize things.

[Grey Kitty]

One thing I've said a few times and heard others mention saying similarly:

"I do want to work on our marriage. I cannot force you to stay if you want to leave. I want you to be happy more than I want to be married to you."

That validates her expressed desire to end it... .while leaving the door open for her to change her mind.

[KateCat]

"I do want to work on our marriage. I cannot force you to stay if you want to leave. I want you to be happy more than I want to be married to you."

I think this is wonderful. 

[MaroonLiquid]

"I do want to work on our marriage. I cannot force you to stay if you want to leave. I want you to be happy more than I want to be married to you."

I think this is wonderful. 

I responded with that.  She didn't respond to it and didn't expect one.  I am really sick but went to practice anyway last night.  When I dropped out daughter off at the house, I was in a lot of pain.  She was cooking and I asked if I could get some ibuprofen out of her bathroom and she started to dysregulate.  She said, "Give me a minute!"  She came over to put a blanket around me and said, "I don't understand how you're a damn adult and you don't take care of yourself!"  I didn't respond to either one and shortly after that, I left to come home.  I really don't understand why they act that way.  she called this morning to check on me ad said to let her know if she can help in any way.  It's funny how I take care of everything when she is sick and when I'm sick, she dysregulates.

[Grey Kitty]

I hope you are feeling better soon. Let us know what happens next.

[Rapt Reader]

I am really sick but went to practice anyway last night.  When I dropped out daughter off at the house, I was in a lot of pain.  She was cooking and I asked if I could get some ibuprofen out of her bathroom and she started to dysregulate.  She said, "Give me a minute!"  She came over to put a blanket around me and said, "I don't understand how you're a damn adult and you don't take care of yourself!"  I didn't respond to either one and shortly after that, I left to come home.  I really don't understand why they act that way.  she called this morning to check on me ad said to let her know if she can help in any way.  It's funny how I take care of everything when she is sick and when I'm sick, she dysregulates.

Gee, when I read what you wrote, MaroonLiquid, it seemed to me that she was trying to take care of you when you were sick; I didn't really see it as a "dysregulation" so much as her stressing out over your pain and trying to "mother" you, to help you... .Of course, I didn't hear her tone of voice or see her facial expressions or body language like you did, so I might be letting my own maternal instincts regarding my Husband when he's sick, color my interpretation here... .

But, I do think that we sometimes mis-label our BPD/BPD traits loved ones' behaviors as "dysregulations" when maybe these reactions are sometimes just humans being humans 

[MaroonLiquid]

You're probably right Rapt Reader.   I do realize I asked for the ibuprofen  when she was in the middle of cooking and already planned on getting me some.  I'm still pretty sick and yesterday my wife offered to drive to our girls softball tournament because of my illness.  I bought breakfast for everyone since she spent her gas as it was pretty far.  That was very nice of her.  We went and our girls won our game so it was a good day.  Keeping things very light and not saying I love you really anymore.  Have to go back today and continue our tournament so looking forward to another good day.  It's weird how my wife has kind of backed off from any affection the last couple of days.  I have stopped it too As it's awkward to give and not get it in return.  Plus, don't want it to feel "pushed".

[MaroonLiquid]

You're probably right Rapt Reader.   I do realize I asked for the ibuprofen  when she was in the middle of cooking and already planned on getting me some.  I'm still pretty sick and yesterday my wife offered to drive to our girls softball tournament because of my illness.  I bought breakfast for everyone since she spent her gas as it was pretty far.  That was very nice of her.  We went and our girls won our game so it was a good day.  Keeping things very light and not saying I love you really anymore.  Have to go back today and continue our tournament so looking forward to another good day.  It's weird how my wife has kind of backed off from any affection the last couple of days.  I have stopped it too As it's awkward to give and not get it in return.  Plus, don't want it to feel "pushed".

Our games got rained out today so my wife and I spent some time on the phone talking through our tax situation and it was very pleasant.  At the end of the conversation, I asked if she wanted to meet for dinner and she agreed to.  Sometimes I feel like we're dating, sometimes I don't know what to think, and sometimes I question my own sanity that I'm even "trying" when she filed for divorce (not much though  ).  I remember that my T said that, "she obviously sees herself having a r/s with me for a long time because she still wants me involved in their lives", but that was before she filed and I'm seeing him again Tuesday with this new info.

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife and I were going to go grocery shopping and decided we didn't have time.  So we were at her place discussing our taxes.  Everything was fine and when we got through that, I decided to bring up some things on the divorce that I had been avoiding.  I asked her how she thought the divorce would change our r/s.  She said she "hadn't really thought about it and was taking things one day at a time."  I said, "Hmmm... .Ok, that's fair".  I asked her why she felt she had to file.  She said, "Well, after the line you crossed with the abuse 10 months ago (sick to death of her putting all her crap/projections on me but oh well   ), and the fact that you stuck me with all the bills, what did you expect?"  I started to feel triggered, but I paused for a moment, took a deep breath and said, "I feel you stuck me with some bills too."  She said, "I stuck you with those because you refused to pay the washer and dryer."  I responded, "I see.  Well, I can see why you felt the need to do that.  Why you feel that way is important to me."  I told her that I was glad she wasn't sure what would change between us because I have been a little nervous approaching it because the way I feel about her hasn't changed.  About this time, her eyes got glassy, looked off into space and acted like she could have cared less what I said.  I noticed it and said, "So do you still think of me physically?"   . She said, "I'm not going to answer that."  I laughed and said, "That means yes."  She said, "Well that won't happen again."  .  I said, "Ok, well, let me know where you want to eat for dinner."  She said, "I'm not going, I'll just eat at home."  I said, "Ok, bye.", got out of the car and left.

We never raised our voices, but I felt on some level I needed to approach these subjects.  But there was no dysregulatikns so that was a plus.

[sweetheart]

Hello ML,

I think you did great in bringing it up  even better no dysregulation!

You made a start ... . 

[KateCat]

Wow, good for you!

You will probably have a very interesting session with your therapist this week.

[123Phoebe]

Do you feel a little better having faced these things?  Be good and kind to yourself, ML   I've seen those glassy eyes you mentioned.  She might need a little time to digest.

I think the beauty of all this is, it's heading in the direction of "real", balancing out those highs and lows.

[Grey Kitty]

Well... .she is proving that the divorce is part of her push-pull games with you... .not that she really wants to end everything by doing it.

Good question to ask her!

I asked her how she thought the divorce would change our r/s.  She said she "hadn't really thought about it and was taking things one day at a time."

If the topic comes up again, you could point out one legally required change if you got divorced. Your employer would have to take her and her kids off of your health insurance, costing her a lot more money.

The more interesting question... .what changes would you make after the divorce?

You are entitled to your own feelings about that--she isn't the only one who gets feelings.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

Well... .she is proving that the divorce is part of her push-pull games with you... .not that she really wants to end everything by doing it.

Why do you say that?  Because she "hasn't thought about what changes between us?"  The funny thing is, she is showing no affection whatsoever all of a sudden when we had sex last week... .

I asked her how she thought the divorce would change our r/s.  She said she "hadn't really thought about it and was taking things one day at a time."

If the topic comes up again, you could point out one legally required change if you got divorced. Your employer would have to take her and her kids off of your health insurance, costing her a lot more money.

The more interesting question... .what changes would you make after the divorce?

You are entitled to your own feelings about that--she isn't the only one who gets feelings.

I told her the last time she dysregulated the night of the "financial seminar" we attended last month that led to her filing was that I would take her off.  I have no problem doing that.  

Hello ML,

I think you did great in bringing it up   even better no dysregulation!

You made a start ... . 

Thanks!

Wow, good for you!

You will probably have a very interesting session with your therapist this week.

Probably so.

Do you feel a little better having faced these things?  Be good and kind to yourself, ML   I've seen those glassy eyes you mentioned.  She might need a little time to digest.

I don't really feel any different, or at least I don't think I do.  Can you explain what you mean by her needing time to digest?

I think the beauty of all this is, it's heading in the direction of "real", balancing out those highs and lows.

I agree with this, just don't know where that leads.

Tonight I feel the worst I've felt in years and I cried for several reasons.  One is I absolutely feel terrible and have for days and not getting any better.  I am trying really hard with radical acceptance and yet I feel myself getting a little upset thinking about all the times I've dropped everything to take care of my wife when she was sick and yet she tells me I'll call and check on you in a bit.  Does that make sense?  Not trying to let that feeling stay around too long, but dealing with it.

[Grey Kitty]

Well... .she is proving that the divorce is part of her push-pull games with you... .not that she really wants to end everything by doing it.

Why do you say that?  Because she "hasn't thought about what changes between us?"  The funny thing is, she is showing no affection whatsoever all of a sudden when we had sex last week... .

Well... .if she wanted to end everything, she would have just stopped all friendly contact with you, and probably stopped asking you for money. That she's bouncing back and forth and engaging in the push-pull thing with you seems pretty clearl.

FYI, just because she's playing games doesn't mean that she won't actually go through with the divorce... .I'm not going to predict how far she'll go.

 Sorry you are feeling sick... .and getting so little support from her. Sigh.

Crying for how imbalanced it is or how she's treating you is what you're going to have to go through. There is probably a lot more for you to grieve. 

[MaroonLiquid]

Well... .she is proving that the divorce is part of her push-pull games with you... .not that she really wants to end everything by doing it.

Why do you say that?  Because she "hasn't thought about what changes between us?"  The funny thing is, she is showing no affection whatsoever all of a sudden when we had sex last week... .

I asked her how she thought the divorce would change our r/s.  She said she "hadn't really thought about it and was taking things one day at a time."

If the topic comes up again, you could point out one legally required change if you got divorced. Your employer would have to take her and her kids off of your health insurance, costing her a lot more money.

The more interesting question... .what changes would you make after the divorce?

You are entitled to your own feelings about that--she isn't the only one who gets feelings.

I told her the last time she dysregulated the night of the "financial seminar" we attended last month that led to her filing was that I would take her off.  I have no problem doing that.  

Hello ML,

I think you did great in bringing it up   even better no dysregulation!

You made a start ... . 

Thanks!

Wow, good for you!

You will probably have a very interesting session with your therapist this week.

Probably so.

Do you feel a little better having faced these things?  Be good and kind to yourself, ML   I've seen those glassy eyes you mentioned.  She might need a little time to digest.

I don't really feel any different, or at least I don't think I do.  Can you explain what you mean by her needing time to digest?

I think the beauty of all this is, it's heading in the direction of "real", balancing out those highs and lows.

I agree with this, just don't know where that leads.

Tonight I feel the worst I've felt in years and I cried for several reasons.  One is I absolutely feel terrible and have for days and not getting any better.  I am trying really hard with radical acceptance and yet I feel myself getting a little upset thinking about all the times I've dropped everything to take care of my wife when she was sick and yet she tells me I'll call and check on you in a bit.  Does that make sense?  Not trying to let that feeling stay around too long, but dealing with it.

One more thing.  When we were talking about "what changes after the divorce", we were talking about property division.  She asked if I could bring the hope chest back that I use as my son's toy box and I said, "Sure."  She asked if I could return it next week while I am out of town and and said that I would.  I asked if I could go ahead and get my laptop back and her response was ridiculous, almost triggered me, but just said, "Ok."  She said, "Once our paperwork is final and everything is agreed to then I will be glad to give that back to you."  It's these moments where I start to realize the depths of her mental illness.  She has no reason to hold on to it and yet won't give it back.  She then said something to I think try and trigger me at that point by saying, "Can I trust you that when you stay over here next week that nothing will be removed from my house?"  I responded and said, "I stayed here last month and nothing was removed."  She said, "I hadn't filed for divorce yet." and I said, "Nothing will be removed."  She said, "Well, if you decide that it is too difficult for you to try and stay here, let me know and I will make other arrangements."  I wanted to say, "How dare you accuse me of the very thing you've done to me over and over again!", but just kept my mouth shut.  Their projections are ridiculous.  

Then, later this afternoon, she asked me to bring some bolt cutters to our son so that he could break the lock on his locker at work to get his keys out. 

Well... .she is proving that the divorce is part of her push-pull games with you... .not that she really wants to end everything by doing it.

Why do you say that?  Because she "hasn't thought about what changes between us?"  The funny thing is, she is showing no affection whatsoever all of a sudden when we had sex last week... .

Well... .if she wanted to end everything, she would have just stopped all friendly contact with you, and probably stopped asking you for money. That she's bouncing back and forth and engaging in the push-pull thing with you seems pretty clearl.

FYI, just because she's playing games doesn't mean that she won't actually go through with the divorce... .I'm not going to predict how far she'll go.

 Sorry you are feeling sick... .and getting so little support from her. Sigh.

Crying for how imbalanced it is or how she's treating you is what you're going to have to go through. There is probably a lot more for you to grieve. 

The big thing now is she wants no affection whatsoever... .Just stupid... .

[123Phoebe]

Do you feel a little better having faced these things?  Be good and kind to yourself, ML   I've seen those glassy eyes you mentioned.  She might need a little time to digest.

I don't really feel any different, or at least I don't think I do.  Can you explain what you mean by her needing time to digest?

I can't say for certain, just thinking she may need some time to sit with this this new way of being (initiated by her), to figure out how this does change things, when not finagling for (un)certain outcomes. To me anyway, this is granting space for her to own her decision of divorce, to feel the effects and possible ramifications.  It has now become "real".  You listened, you heard her.

I think the beauty of all this is, it's heading in the direction of "real", balancing out those highs and lows.

I agree with this, just don't know where that leads.

Tonight I feel the worst I've felt in years and I cried for several reasons.  One is I absolutely feel terrible and have for days and not getting any better.  I am trying really hard with radical acceptance and yet I feel myself getting a little upset thinking about all the times I've dropped everything to take care of my wife when she was sick and yet she tells me I'll call and check on you in a bit.  :)oes that make sense?  Not trying to let that feeling stay around too long, but dealing with it.

I don't know about your wife, but my bf is wonderful when I'm really sick.  By that, I mean he knows I'm sick because I'm down for the count-- can't go to work or go grocery shopping, out to eat or anything social; I'm sick and he's as empathetic as can be.  If I'm beebopping around, albeit moaning, he doesn't really take the sickness seriously, mainly because I'm not taking it seriously by taking serious care of myself.  At those times, he'll call to check on me, but won't drop everything, nor would I expect him to.

She then said something to I think try and trigger me at that point by saying, "Can I trust you that when you stay over here next week that nothing will be removed from my house?"  I responded and said, "I stayed here last month and nothing was removed."  She said, "I hadn't filed for divorce yet." and I said, "Nothing will be removed."  She said, "Well, if you decide that it is too difficult for you to try and stay here, let me know and I will make other arrangements."  I wanted to say, "How dare you accuse me of the very thing you've done to me over and over again!", but just kept my mouth shut.  Their projections are ridiculous.  

I'm not sure how I would handle staying at her house while she's out of town, if I were you.  I'd like to believe she won't cause any hoopla, but in light of all of this and her asking if she can trust you not to remove anything from her house... . Hmmm... .

Have you spoken with a lawyer yet?  I'm just wondering what one would suggest doing in a situation like this, having dealt with numerous scenarios.

Talking this over with your T will hopefully bring more clarity... . C'mon Tuesday!

Hope you feel better soon, Maroon

[MaroonLiquid]

I can't say for certain, just thinking she may need some time to sit with this this new way of being (initiated by her), to figure out how this does change things, when not finagling for (un)certain outcomes. To me anyway, this is granting space for her to own her decision of divorce, to feel the effects and possible ramifications.  It has now become "real".  You listened, you heard her.

I hear what you're saying. This is where I have a difficult time.  How is it not "real" to her when she went and talked to a lawyer and filed.  Yesterday, she pulled out her "folder of paperwork" she presented to her lawyer (with his card stapled to it) when we were talking about our taxes.  It almost seemed like it was planned to get me to react.  I didn't.

I don't know about your wife, but my bf is wonderful when I'm really sick.  By that, I mean he knows I'm sick because I'm down for the count-- can't go to work or go grocery shopping, out to eat or anything social; I'm sick and he's as empathetic as can be.  If I'm beebopping around, albeit moaning, he doesn't really take the sickness seriously, mainly because I'm not taking it seriously by taking serious care of myself.  At those times, he'll call to check on me, but won't drop everything, nor would I expect him to.

Understood.  I just see things where when she gets the sniffles, the world stops.  When she doesn't feel good, I want to take care of her and whatever needs to be done.

I'm not sure how I would handle staying at her house while she's out of town, if I were you.  I'd like to believe she won't cause any hoopla, but in light of all of this and her asking if she can trust you not to remove anything from her house... . Hmmm... .

Have you spoken with a lawyer yet?  I'm just wondering what one would suggest doing in a situation like this, having dealt with numerous scenarios.

Talking this over with your T will hopefully bring more clarity... . C'mon Tuesday!

Hope you feel better soon, Maroon

Thanks. 

[123Phoebe]

I just see things where when she gets the sniffles, the world stops.  When she doesn't feel good, I want to take care of her and whatever needs to be done.

Seriously, the world stops over sniffles?  That is a foreign land to me.  A nap maybe?  A big ol' box of kleenex.  Some ibuprofen.  Carry-out or Campbell's soup

Is there a chance that you baby her?  Maybe it feels engulfing to her?

The funny thing is, she is showing no affection whatsoever all of a sudden when we had sex last week... .

The big thing now is she wants no affection whatsoever... .Just stupid... .

And I have to ask, really because I'm wondering if it's a guy thing... . As sick as it sounds like you are, kidney issues?  That sounds serious.  What kind of affection are you wishing she wanted?  Sex?

Out of the mouth of my mother, "If he feels good enough to have sex, then he must not feel that bad".

Men and women are just different, I think

[MaroonLiquid]

I just see things where when she gets the sniffles, the world stops.  When she doesn't feel good, I want to take care of her and whatever needs to be done.

Seriously, the world stops over sniffles?  That is a foreign land to me.  A nap maybe?  A big ol' box of kleenex.  Some ibuprofen.  Carry-out or Campbell's soup

Is there a chance that you baby her?  Maybe it feels engulfing to her?

I know I was being a bit over the top.  But when she gets a cold, she doesn't deal well with it at all.  I doN't try and baby her, I just think enough of her to try and make things easier for her.  That's how I'm wired.

The funny thing is, she is showing no affection whatsoever all of a sudden when we had sex last week... .

The big thing now is she wants no affection whatsoever... .Just stupid... .

And I have to ask, really because I'm wondering if it's a guy thing... . As sick as it sounds like you are, kidney issues?  That sounds serious.  What kind of affection are you wishing she wanted?  Sex?

Out of the mouth of my mother, "If he feels good enough to have sex, then he must not feel that bad".

Men and women are just different, I think

I actually wasn't thinking of sex at all!    . What I mean by affection is a hug... .I find it strange how things were no different between us until the last few days.  And now she's acting like I'm some stranger.  Just weird. 

[123Phoebe]

I actually wasn't thinking of sex at all!   . What I mean by affection is a hug... .I find it strange how things were no different between us until the last few days.  And now she's acting like I'm some stranger.  Just weird.  

Maybe men and women aren't as different as I think   Okay Maroon... .   She has BPD.  How many other strange things has she done over the years?

And where do your boundaries lie around behaviors you cannot deal with or tolerate because they go against the very nature of your core?

[MaroonLiquid]

Maybe men and women aren't as different as I think   Okay Maroon... .   She has BPD.  How many other strange things has she done over the years?

Where should I start?   

And where do your boundaries lie around behaviors you cannot deal with or tolerate because they go against the very nature of your core?

I thought I have been keeping much better boundaries with certain things the last few months. 

Yesterday, I didn't contact my wife at all.  She did contact me yesterday morning to check on me, but then we had no communication the rest of the day till late yesterday evening.  She texted to say she just got done working and asked how I was.  I said I was better and that I took my daughter to dinner for her birthday as to not let her down.  She asked where we went and I told her.  She asked if I was with my ex wife and I said yes, along with her husband, her mom, my other daughter and son.  She made the statement, "Oh, I see they have welcomed you back in the fold.  That's nice of them." (My first thought was, "Uh-oh"... .)  I simply said, "Nope.  It is nothing like that.  That is what my daughter wanted to do for her birthday and I gave her that.  Did you get a lot of work done today?"  She said yes and went into a big old story about her work yesterday.  She then needed help changing out a print cartridge in the printer.  It was pretty funny as she shook the print cartridge and ink went everywhere.  She then sent me pictures of herself and the room she was in and there was ink everywhere.     Anyway, once she got that cleaned up, we FaceTime'd so that I could walk her through cleaning the printheads on the printer.  She seemed pretty appreciative of my help and and we laughed some.  It ended well, and still taking one day at a time... .

[bunnyrabit]

Maybe men and women aren't as different as I think cool  Okay Maroon... .    She has BPD.  How many other strange things has she done over the years?

Where should I start?   grin

At the beginning

[MaroonLiquid]

I said in a previous post that now we have had "communication" regarding the divorce and I asked her what she thought might change between us, she has now "pulled back" the last couple of days.  It doesn't bother me and realize it is part of the push/pull, and saw her eyes "glaze" over during the conversation.  Was that a trigger to split or is she just possibly left  thinking about the "ramifications" of her decisions?  I'm leaving her alone and we are occasionally speaking, but just curious to your guys take.  Thoughts? 

[Grey Kitty]

I think you are spending way more time than is healthy worrying about what she thinks.

She's been pulling away after getting closer to you like this in cycles for how long now? The whole time you've been separated?

[123Phoebe]

Maroon, what has changed for you through all of this?  Are there ramifications (for her to think about) resulting from her decisions?  Is anything different? 

Before you said you weren't sure if you could have a relationship with her outside of marriage.  Are you now sure you can?

[123Phoebe]

I remember that my T said that, "she obviously sees herself having a r/s with me for a long time because she still wants me involved in their lives", but that was before she filed and I'm seeing him again Tuesday with this new info.

Hi again, Maroon,

Did you see your T yesterday? 

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon, what has changed for you through all of this?  Are there ramifications (for her to think about) resulting from her decisions?  Is anything different? 

The only thing different about me is I am at peace and have been since I got the paperwork.  I'm not scared of the "finality" of this anymore. 

Before you said you weren't sure if you could have a relationship with her outside of marriage.  Are you now sure you can?

At this point, I'm not saying yes or no.  I don't know what a r/s looks like for me outside of that yet as I am just trying to find my way through this adventure.

Hi again, Maroon,

Did you see your T yesterday? 

Yes I did!  He told me that I am handling things very well and that I am much stronger than I give myself credit for.  he told me that over the last 10 months that I have grown much stronger!  He says that she is obviously very confused, and changes as the wind blows.  He told me that I make things very difficult for her because I don't do that anymore.  He said that regardless of how this turns out, I should be proud of myself.  He said that he "thinks" she filed for "control", but to not worry about it and continue to be the steady rock in her life.  He said that she isn't as volatile and that is a blessing.  He reiterated that I obviously mean a lot to her and the kids and that is why I'm still around.  if I didn't, she wouldn't have much to do with me if at all.

[MaroonLiquid]

Forgot to mention.  Last night I went over to my wife's house and we watched a movie and fell asleep together.  It was nice to just be together and there not be intimacy.  That may sound weird, but hopefully you know what I mean.  Everything went well and appreciate that it has been a while since she has completely dysregulated.  She has had her moments obviously, but her highs and lows are becoming way more even keel.  That is so much better than the alternative.  I wish she had come to this point months and months ago.  I was part of the problem obviously and see what part I played in that now.

[formflier]

  I was part of the problem obviously and see what part I played in that now.

Might be good for newbies that are just getting on the boards to summarize the part you played then... . and the part you play now.

You have a powerful story of how changing yourself... . forces the r/s to change... .   for the better   

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Might be good for newbies that are just getting on the boards to summarize the part you played then... . and the part you play now.

You have a powerful story of how changing yourself... . forces the r/s to change... .   for the better   

FF

Ok, here goes... .

     Ten months ago when I first found these boards, I had no clue what BPD was nor how to combat (healthily) the illness.  The first couple of months, I really didn't look at myself.  Instead, I was waiting for my wife to "get it".  Get that she made a lot of bad choices, get that she needs help, and get that I'm not the problem.  I spent the first few months of this as I did the 6 years of our marriage.  I HAD to be right and tell her so.  What I learned, is that aids in the push/pull within pwBPD.  They want you to "prove your innocence", fight, rant and rave so that they can tell you how wrong you are and project all of their negativity on to you.  They want to know they are getting to you.  It's the only way they can feel better about themselves.  I played right into her illness.  I went through a lot of game-playing, stealing from me, bad dysregulations, no-win situations, using me for money, dangling "us" like a carrot in front of me, lengthy extinction bursts and her even filing for divorce three weeks ago. 

     First, I HAD TO learn self-control and control my behavior first.  I then had eo work on myself, find out who I am without her, and then and only then, could I accept the fact that I couldn't control her.  It was then that I learned to radically accept her for who she is, illness and all.  That took 9 months!  I had to be ok with the fact that she was going to do what she was going to do.  I could still be a better me regardless.  The last two and a half months, things have gotten better.  I'm sure you will say, but she filed for divorce.  Well, I look at that as a win for the both of us.  There is no more "Limbo Land".  If she goes through with it, I'll be ok.  If she doesn't, I'll still be okay.  I am at peace and refuse to fight.  I don't mean not standing up for myself in a healthy manner, but not letting her illness control my emotions or ruin my day.  She hasn't full on dysregulated in quite a while.  I haven't either.  I stay calm, loving, and forgiving.  I know that she does wrestle between divorce (because it's easier than facing the truth, consequences and actions of her life) and staying with me because we love each other.  I do love her either way.  Enough to let her go if she can't face her demons.   

[MaroonLiquid]

So my wife left town on Saturday morning early.  I spent the night with her the night before to get her to the airport and then get ready for softball.  She mentioned several times the night before and the next morning how thankful she was that I was able to be there with the kids while she was gone.  The BIG THING in my book was, we went shopping for clothes for her the night before she left, and got her packed and she DID NOT dysregulate at all!  Both of those events are usually BIG triggers for her.  I was so proud of her.  Usually, she gets so flustered and anxious she flips out over something small.  When I felt her start to do that, I would change the subject to something positive.  The only time I didn't was when she said, "I don't want to leave."  I responded with, "I know it sucks to have to go, and you seem to get nervous when you have to leave.  I don't want you to go either, but you will do great and this trip will be great for you!  Everything here will be taken care of."  She immediately calmed down and smiled and said, "Thank you!"  I then told her I'm glad that the last few years she could go away on business and be comfortable knowing everything was taken care of.  In the past with her ex, she was always worried sick as sometimes he literally wouldn't feed them at times or woud be high.  She said she really appreciated that, that I'm a good dad and very responsible.  When I dropped her off at the airport, she gave me a couple of kisses and told me she would miss me.  I told her the same.  Everything has gone exremely well with the kids except for a few minor things (teenagers   ), but am blessed.  They have all been extremely well behaved and happy.  My son and I are getting along great, our youngest daughter has been very loving and hugging me all the time and the middle daughter has started being loving again when she was started to back off.  My wife is not feeling well while she has been out of town and have validated that.  She will be out of town till Thursday and at least she can focus on work.  All in all, this week couldn't have started off any better and I'm grateful.

[123Phoebe]

All in all, this week couldn't have started off any better and I'm grateful.

Yay!

[MaroonLiquid]

Just wanted to say that everything is still going very well while my wife has been away.  Kids and I are having a blast!  We are laughing together and they are all saying they love me again.  Over really enjoyed this!  One thing, my wife sent a text to me last night commenting that the kids haven't called her or texted her since she has been gone with a perplexed emoticon attached.  She has commented how well things are going, complements me and that she is glad, but what did she expect when the kids feel secure?  They have always been good with me.  I told her I would have them call her, and not taking her comment personal, instead seeing it as something that goes against pictures she has painted in her own mind and to other people about me I guess.  We tell each other we miss each other and I validate that she needs this time for herself and even though it is business, take time to recharge without all the responsibility that she usually has. 

[123Phoebe]

Glad you're having a blast with the kids, Maroon!

I remember something about returning her hope chest (or dresser?) while she's away; have you done that?

Hope you're enjoying another awesome day!

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .