New Beginnings & Boundaries 7...

[MaroonLiquid]

I will continue here.  Here is the previous thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=274246.0

Maroon, what are your priorities here?

Fighting with her over whether you will sign a waiver of service is really ludicrous.

If you have clearly told her that you won't sign it, and stick to that message, then you are at least being consistent.

But really... .what are you trying to accomplish by being stubborn about this? Do you think that making her pay something around $100 to have you served will accomplish anything?

Step back from the 'game' she's trying to make this into... .and is having fairly good luck at getting you at least worked up, if not downright engaged on it.

What is your 'winning' scenario where you get what you want with your wife? And how is it different from what your wife wants?

From what you say, she doesn't sound interested in dating / replacing you. And you don't sound very interested in moving back in with her, 'tho she sounds afraid of it while dysregulated.

I guess I don't understand your question.  im not involved in her game or at least I don't think I am.  My winning scenario is having a r/s with my wife.  I don't know what she wants.  She is very contradictory.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[KateCat]

Gee, I've been watching your threads thinking that if Charlie Sheen ever needs further lessons on "WINNING!" he might consult your wife.

It makes sense to me that at this point, when you've decided firmly not to sign the waiver of service, you stick with that decision.

But she seems to win no matter what she does: she wins an ardent younger man, devoted to her, her kids, her projects and household chores. If all you want is to have a relationship with her, then you've probably got it.

Sorry to sound like nothing more than GreyKitty's echo, but what's the struggle?

Is this values-related, such that you won't have a sexual relationship with her if she divorces you? Now that I can understand.

[123Phoebe]

I will continue here.  Here is the previous thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=274246.0

Maroon, what are your priorities here?

Fighting with her over whether you will sign a waiver of service is really ludicrous.

If you have clearly told her that you won't sign it, and stick to that message, then you are at least being consistent.

But really... .what are you trying to accomplish by being stubborn about this? Do you think that making her pay something around $100 to have you served will accomplish anything?

Step back from the 'game' she's trying to make this into... .and is having fairly good luck at getting you at least worked up, if not downright engaged on it.

What is your 'winning' scenario where you get what you want with your wife? And how is it different from what your wife wants?

From what you say, she doesn't sound interested in dating / replacing you. And you don't sound very interested in moving back in with her, 'tho she sounds afraid of it while dysregulated.

I guess I don't understand your question.  im not involved in her game or at least I don't think I am.  My winning scenario is having a r/s with my wife.  I don't know what she wants.  She is very contradictory.

How does, "My winning scenario is having a r/s with _____________ "<------ (her name, not title), sound when you say it out loud?  

It seems as if she truly does want to have a relationship with you, Maroon.  To me, from her vantage point it just looks and feels different, because she's a different and separate person from you.  She's not just Maroon's "Wife".  She's a woman, with her very own separate identity including her own thoughts and feelings.

To be honest, I feel pretty invalidated for her.  It just seems as if you're totally blowing her off.  I think she's been pretty consistent and open actually.  She's come right out and said, ""Sometimes I think we're better friends than married, don't you?", with your reply being a firm "No".

She was pretty affectionate before finding out (through her lawyer, not you), that you hadn't actually signed the papers.  I'm thinking that some of your comments were rather vague in that regard, with your overall theme sticking to you not wanting the divorce.  Not much in the way of why either of you feel the way you do about it.  Almost like a power struggle.

Can you not be in a relationship with her, if you're not married?  

[KateCat]

Can you not be in a relationship with her, if you're not married?  

Maybe this is the truth you need to know for yourself and express to your wife.

[MaroonLiquid]

I will continue here.  Here is the previous thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=274246.0

Maroon, what are your priorities here?

Fighting with her over whether you will sign a waiver of service is really ludicrous.

If you have clearly told her that you won't sign it, and stick to that message, then you are at least being consistent.

But really... .what are you trying to accomplish by being stubborn about this? Do you think that making her pay something around $100 to have you served will accomplish anything?

Step back from the 'game' she's trying to make this into... .and is having fairly good luck at getting you at least worked up, if not downright engaged on it.

What is your 'winning' scenario where you get what you want with your wife? And how is it different from what your wife wants?

From what you say, she doesn't sound interested in dating / replacing you. And you don't sound very interested in moving back in with her, 'tho she sounds afraid of it while dysregulated.

I guess I don't understand your question.  im not involved in her game or at least I don't think I am.  My winning scenario is having a r/s with my wife.  I don't know what she wants.  She is very contradictory.

How does, "My winning scenario is having a r/s with _____________ "<------ (her name, not title), sound when you say it out loud?  

It seems as if she truly does want to have a relationship with you, Maroon.  To me, from her vantage point it just looks and feels different, because she's a different and separate person from you.  She's not just Maroon's "Wife".  She's a woman, with her very own separate identity including her own thoughts and feelings.

To be honest, I feel pretty invalidated for her.  It just seems as if you're totally blowing her off.  I think she's been pretty consistent and open actually.  She's come right out and said, ""Sometimes I think we're better friends than married, don't you?", with your reply being a firm "No".

She was pretty affectionate before finding out (through her lawyer, not you), that you hadn't actually signed the papers.  I'm thinking that some of your comments were rather vague in that regard, with your overall theme sticking to you not wanting the divorce.  Not much in the way of why either of you feel the way you do about it.  Almost like a power struggle.

Can you not be in a relationship with her, if you're not married?  

How does getting a divorce from me tell me she wants to have a relationship with me?  I don't know that I can have a relationship with her outside of marriage.  She doesn't get her cake and eat it too!  That's completely invalidating to me.  Why do my feelings not matter in any of this?  In other words, "You're good enough to sleep with... ."  I'm sorry that's BS... .

[MaroonLiquid]

I guess I don't understand your question.  im not involved in her game or at least I don't think I am.  My winning scenario is having a r/s with my wife.

Be more specific, what kind of r/s you want with this contradictory woman. Nuts and bolts daily life specific.

You could move back in with her, be an emotional punching bag, and support her financially, the way you did prior to being kicked out. (Guessing that doesn't appeal much... .and don't think she wants it either.)

You could continue living apart from her, but still spend a fair bit of time with her and her kids, just like today. (Complete with dysregulations and silent treatment and divorce threats)

I'm not trying to be a pain here... .but either of those things qualifies as "having a r/s with her".

Paint me a picture of a plausible scenario with your wife being who she is today... .that would be how you want to live with her in your life.

I dont know.  Who she is today isn't healthy and I'm to blame for everything.  That isn't healthy.

[KateCat]

I don't know that I can have a relationship with her outside of marriage.

Is this a discussion you can have with your wife, like right now?

[formflier]

So... .just so everyone knows where I'm coming from... .I've faced a bazillion divorce threats... .no papers that I know about.  I've had lawyers call my house to return my wife's calls to them... ."found" lawyer papers that my wife has left out.

But... .my plan... .if ever faced with it... .would be to not participate... .up until not participating would seriously impact my future (like kids and stuff).  Basically... .if my wife wants to divorce me... .she would get no help from me in doing that.  She would have to own that decision.

My stance on that is based on a vow I took to preserve the marriage.  There was nothing in the vow that said if she got BPD... or if she wanted out... .it just doesn't work that way for me.  My vow is to God to protect the r/s that he has placed in my life (totally get that lots of people see things differently... again my view).

So... .(Maroon correct me if I'm wrong)... .I am under impression that Maroon has some similar thoughts, stances, beliefs on marriage. 

I'm seeing this as a values based decision... not a power struggle.

However... .my value could be blinding me to this as well.

So... .if it was me... .the practical purpose behind not signing... .is to not go against my values.  For me... .it would seem like signing is "helping" this thing move along.

Totally not saying others are wrong... just explaining my side... .and what I am getting from Maroon (but could be wrong)

Also... .when I see lots of people saying the plan that I basically have is not good... .or invalidating... .or not going to work out... .I really want to understand their point of view.

FF

[KateCat]

Kudos to both formflier and Maroon Liquid for excellent values!

It seems there are two very different wives here, based on their marital histories. Formflier's wife ain't goin' nowhere. Maroon Liquid's wife has already completed one divorce (I think) and looks set to work another.

ff, if your wife were actually moving through the court process of divorce, what do you think you'd be saying or doing to honor your values? Do you think Maroon will still have time to do those things even after he is legally served?

I fear that his wife will feel he is continuing to blow her off. And she seems a woman of some determination.

[MaroonLiquid]

So... .just so everyone knows where I'm coming from... .I've faced a bazillion divorce threats... .no papers that I know about.  I've had lawyers call my house to return my wife's calls to them... ."found" lawyer papers that my wife has left out.

But... .my plan... .if ever faced with it... .would be to not participate... .up until not participating would seriously impact my future (like kids and stuff).  Basically... .if my wife wants to divorce me... .she would get no help from me in doing that.  She would have to own that decision.

My stance on that is based on a vow I took to preserve the marriage.  There was nothing in the vow that said if she got BPD... or if she wanted out... .it just doesn't work that way for me.  My vow is to God to protect the r/s that he has placed in my life (totally get that lots of people see things differently... again my view).

So... .(Maroon correct me if I'm wrong)... .I am under impression that Maroon has some similar thoughts, stances, beliefs on marriage. 

I'm seeing this as a values based decision... not a power struggle.

However... .my value could be blinding me to this as well.

So... .if it was me... .the practical purpose behind not signing... .is to not go against my values.  For me... .it would seem like signing is "helping" this thing move along.

Totally not saying others are wrong... just explaining my side... .and what I am getting from Maroon (but could be wrong)

Also... .when I see lots of people saying the plan that I basically have is not good... .or invalidating... .or not going to work out... .I really want to understand their point of view.

FF

This is exactly the way I see it.  I'm not standing in her way, but this is her deal.  Why should I make it easy for her?  I didn't ask for this.  She dysregulated 10 months ago and caused all this.  And yet I'm made out to be the bad guy?  How is that not invalidating?

[KateCat]

Why should I make it easy for her?

I think the thing that might make it hard for her is you clearly expressing the consequences to your relationship of a completed divorce.

[Grey Kitty]

She dysregulated 10 months ago and caused all this.  And yet I'm made out to be the bad guy?  How is that not invalidating?

Maroon, you sound defensive and using some twisted thinking here. If you are being invalidating, it doesn't mean that your wife isn't.

Your wife is unreasonable, frequently dysregulated, playing nasty games with you to get your money, is often invalidating with you, etc., etc., etc. She has a mental illness. I know that. And I'm not communicating with her about how to better handle her marriage... .and I'm not calling her on her crap. Nor am I denying any of it.

How does getting a divorce from me tell me she wants to have a relationship with me?  I don't know that I can have a relationship with her outside of marriage.  She doesn't get her cake and eat it too!  That's completely invalidating to me.  Why do my feelings not matter in any of this?  In other words, "You're good enough to sleep with... ."  I'm sorry that's BS... .

Her thinking is confused and distorted, and bounces back and forth. You have described how loving and appreciative she is... .in between divorce threats and dysregulations. The 'good' times are the evidence that she wants a relationship with you. That is why you have a chance at saving your marriage, and mine is over. (Even though filing papers is farther away for me.)

And that doesn't mean that your wife is offering you something good enough to be worth saving--that is YOUR choice. At least for now, until she gives up 100% on it.

I'm writing suggestions for you, things you can do on your side of the fence. Even if she is behaving 500X as badly as you are, I'll still point out the area you can improve.

I asked you for a "winning scenario" for you... .one that has some chance of improving your r/s enough to get your wife into a couple years of therapy... .rather than one that would require the result of two years of therapy on her part to be possible.

I dont know.  Who she is today isn't healthy and I'm to blame for everything.  That isn't healthy.

If this is your best answer of what you want with her, perhaps divorce is your best plan?


You do sound like you are getting really upset by her latest round of moving closer toward divorce. A week or two ago, you sounded a lot more at peace with your situation than you do now.

[MaroonLiquid]

Honestly, I am at peace.  I do want a relationship with her.  II love her very much.   just wish we didn't have to go through a divorce to get it.  Today, I am at home with some pretty bad kidney issues and my wife met me with some medicine. 

[formflier]

Kudos to both formflier and Maroon Liquid for excellent values!

It seems there are two very different wives here, based on their marital histories. Formflier's wife ain't goin' nowhere. Maroon Liquid's wife has already completed one divorce (I think) and looks set to work another.

ff, if your wife were actually moving through the court process of divorce, what do you think you'd be saying or doing to honor your values? Do you think Maroon will still have time to do those things even after he is legally served?

I fear that his wife will feel he is continuing to blow her off. And she seems a woman of some determination.

My only reason for explaining all of that... .was about the decision to sign the waiver.  For me... .and it seems like for Maroon... that would be "participating" in a divorce.

So... yes... .two very different wives... .but two similar hubbies... .based on attitudes about divorce and some other religious elements. 

And listen... .if others have arguments, points, reasoning... .of why the waiver SHOULD be signed... .I'm all for listening... .to make sure I'm not missing something.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

This isn't supposed to be a debate... .and I'm not saying that Maroon should sign the waiver.

I believe that stonewalling his wife about this issue is invalidating to her, and that is working against his stated goal to repair/rebuild his marriage.

[MaroonLiquid]

This isn't supposed to be a debate... .and I'm not saying that Maroon should sign the waiver.

I believe that stonewalling his wife about this issue is invalidating to her, and that is working against his stated goal to repair/rebuild his marriage.

Honestly, you aren't the first person to say this.  My family thinks it would send a message.  But that is not my goal.  Repairing and rebuilding my r/s is.

[Grey Kitty]

This isn't supposed to be a debate... .and I'm not saying that Maroon should sign the waiver.

I believe that stonewalling his wife about this issue is invalidating to her, and that is working against his stated goal to repair/rebuild his marriage.

Honestly, you aren't the first person to say this.  My family thinks it would send a message.  But that is not my goal.  Repairing and rebuilding my r/s is.

I agree with your family--not signing sends a message. I don't think the message is one that will get a positive response from your wife. You haven't reported any positive responses from her upon receiving this message.

So what actions do you intend to take that will help your r/s instead of harming it (and invalidating your wife)?

[sweetheart]

Hello ML,

What is clear is that repairing and rebuilding your relationship is your primary goal. What is not clear is how you are going to do this or what your vision of this will look like.

It might be this lack clarity and ?confusion? from you that is triggering your wife and in a way you.

If you take her filing for divorce as a communication signalling the end of your marriage that was, this seems to me a clear communication about what your w no longer wants your marriage to be. It would be fair to conclude then that she does not want to go back to that and neither do you.

Perhaps in a way you are both being triggered because neither of you are clear what your relationship looks like moving forward and that is causing fear and anxiety for you both.

Fear that blocks you finding a way to get underneath the real meaning/message behind the divorce and fear for your wife because you might not hear her if she expresses herself in a less destructive way than asking for a divorce.

[MaroonLiquid]

Very true sweetheart.  I told my wife that I was sending off the form tomorrow.  She was upset at first, and I apologized for being a jerk.  I told her I was being selfish and that I thought that because things were going so well, that we could work through our differences.  I left it at that.  I'm really at peace with this whole thing, just realize that I figured if I made it more difficult, she would realize things.

[Grey Kitty]

One thing I've said a few times and heard others mention saying similarly:

"I do want to work on our marriage. I cannot force you to stay if you want to leave. I want you to be happy more than I want to be married to you."

That validates her expressed desire to end it... .while leaving the door open for her to change her mind.

[KateCat]

"I do want to work on our marriage. I cannot force you to stay if you want to leave. I want you to be happy more than I want to be married to you."

I think this is wonderful. 

[MaroonLiquid]

"I do want to work on our marriage. I cannot force you to stay if you want to leave. I want you to be happy more than I want to be married to you."

I think this is wonderful. 

I responded with that.  She didn't respond to it and didn't expect one.  I am really sick but went to practice anyway last night.  When I dropped out daughter off at the house, I was in a lot of pain.  She was cooking and I asked if I could get some ibuprofen out of her bathroom and she started to dysregulate.  She said, "Give me a minute!"  She came over to put a blanket around me and said, "I don't understand how you're a damn adult and you don't take care of yourself!"  I didn't respond to either one and shortly after that, I left to come home.  I really don't understand why they act that way.  she called this morning to check on me ad said to let her know if she can help in any way.  It's funny how I take care of everything when she is sick and when I'm sick, she dysregulates.

[Grey Kitty]

I hope you are feeling better soon. Let us know what happens next.

[Rapt Reader]

I am really sick but went to practice anyway last night.  When I dropped out daughter off at the house, I was in a lot of pain.  She was cooking and I asked if I could get some ibuprofen out of her bathroom and she started to dysregulate.  She said, "Give me a minute!"  She came over to put a blanket around me and said, "I don't understand how you're a damn adult and you don't take care of yourself!"  I didn't respond to either one and shortly after that, I left to come home.  I really don't understand why they act that way.  she called this morning to check on me ad said to let her know if she can help in any way.  It's funny how I take care of everything when she is sick and when I'm sick, she dysregulates.

Gee, when I read what you wrote, MaroonLiquid, it seemed to me that she was trying to take care of you when you were sick; I didn't really see it as a "dysregulation" so much as her stressing out over your pain and trying to "mother" you, to help you... .Of course, I didn't hear her tone of voice or see her facial expressions or body language like you did, so I might be letting my own maternal instincts regarding my Husband when he's sick, color my interpretation here... .

But, I do think that we sometimes mis-label our BPD/BPD traits loved ones' behaviors as "dysregulations" when maybe these reactions are sometimes just humans being humans 

[MaroonLiquid]

You're probably right Rapt Reader.   I do realize I asked for the ibuprofen  when she was in the middle of cooking and already planned on getting me some.  I'm still pretty sick and yesterday my wife offered to drive to our girls softball tournament because of my illness.  I bought breakfast for everyone since she spent her gas as it was pretty far.  That was very nice of her.  We went and our girls won our game so it was a good day.  Keeping things very light and not saying I love you really anymore.  Have to go back today and continue our tournament so looking forward to another good day.  It's weird how my wife has kind of backed off from any affection the last couple of days.  I have stopped it too As it's awkward to give and not get it in return.  Plus, don't want it to feel "pushed".

[MaroonLiquid]

You're probably right Rapt Reader.   I do realize I asked for the ibuprofen  when she was in the middle of cooking and already planned on getting me some.  I'm still pretty sick and yesterday my wife offered to drive to our girls softball tournament because of my illness.  I bought breakfast for everyone since she spent her gas as it was pretty far.  That was very nice of her.  We went and our girls won our game so it was a good day.  Keeping things very light and not saying I love you really anymore.  Have to go back today and continue our tournament so looking forward to another good day.  It's weird how my wife has kind of backed off from any affection the last couple of days.  I have stopped it too As it's awkward to give and not get it in return.  Plus, don't want it to feel "pushed".

Our games got rained out today so my wife and I spent some time on the phone talking through our tax situation and it was very pleasant.  At the end of the conversation, I asked if she wanted to meet for dinner and she agreed to.  Sometimes I feel like we're dating, sometimes I don't know what to think, and sometimes I question my own sanity that I'm even "trying" when she filed for divorce (not much though  ).  I remember that my T said that, "she obviously sees herself having a r/s with me for a long time because she still wants me involved in their lives", but that was before she filed and I'm seeing him again Tuesday with this new info.

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife and I were going to go grocery shopping and decided we didn't have time.  So we were at her place discussing our taxes.  Everything was fine and when we got through that, I decided to bring up some things on the divorce that I had been avoiding.  I asked her how she thought the divorce would change our r/s.  She said she "hadn't really thought about it and was taking things one day at a time."  I said, "Hmmm... .Ok, that's fair".  I asked her why she felt she had to file.  She said, "Well, after the line you crossed with the abuse 10 months ago (sick to death of her putting all her crap/projections on me but oh well   ), and the fact that you stuck me with all the bills, what did you expect?"  I started to feel triggered, but I paused for a moment, took a deep breath and said, "I feel you stuck me with some bills too."  She said, "I stuck you with those because you refused to pay the washer and dryer."  I responded, "I see.  Well, I can see why you felt the need to do that.  Why you feel that way is important to me."  I told her that I was glad she wasn't sure what would change between us because I have been a little nervous approaching it because the way I feel about her hasn't changed.  About this time, her eyes got glassy, looked off into space and acted like she could have cared less what I said.  I noticed it and said, "So do you still think of me physically?"   . She said, "I'm not going to answer that."  I laughed and said, "That means yes."  She said, "Well that won't happen again."  .  I said, "Ok, well, let me know where you want to eat for dinner."  She said, "I'm not going, I'll just eat at home."  I said, "Ok, bye.", got out of the car and left.

We never raised our voices, but I felt on some level I needed to approach these subjects.  But there was no dysregulatikns so that was a plus.

[sweetheart]

Hello ML,

I think you did great in bringing it up  even better no dysregulation!

You made a start ... . 

[KateCat]

Wow, good for you!

You will probably have a very interesting session with your therapist this week.

[123Phoebe]

Do you feel a little better having faced these things?  Be good and kind to yourself, ML   I've seen those glassy eyes you mentioned.  She might need a little time to digest.

I think the beauty of all this is, it's heading in the direction of "real", balancing out those highs and lows.