Thinking of reaching out-what would b wrong with that? Need closure

[cherryblossom]

 

Am really thinking about sending a text asking to meet up and promising to not get angry and do a lot of listening. I don't particularly know what i want from it i just know i cant live with the way it has ended. If we dont get back fine-he is with someone anyway -  but it ended on such bad terms it cant b the ending of our story - it's too bitter and twisted. I feel like i would move on better if we had a graceful meeting. Or am i being a rescuer by reaching out?  It feels like an adult thing to do. If we didn't get back with each other but could speak nucely to each other it would feel a lot better and the last 2 half years would make more sense. If he doesn't respond to my reaching out then i will definitely know to move on

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[C.Stein]

I don't think it is unreasonable to want to end things gracefully.  It is the mature thing to do.

That said, my goodbye with the ex, while "cordial", did not bring any closure and haunts me to this day.  While we didn't fight or anything like that, her demeanor, the way she acted and looked at me and things she said/tone of voice all summed up to one of the most painful events of my life.  I'm not trying to discourage you from reaching out, just to have realistic expectations if you do meet face to face.  

[cherryblossom]

Thanks c stein, thing is i feel the worst pain has been inflicted by what has already happened - i feel like surely the only way is up one way or other---- i dont know what could b worse - if he didnt reply that would feel v bad, but im in therapy im trying to geal and move on wtc it feels like part of the process. Im sorry that your experience was so awful - did u hope u mite get back together? Im havinv a blast snd net some amzing beautiful people - a couple that r beautiful and fun and who r in their 40s still loving life abd adventures so it gives me hope - but still got this urge to do this one last thing xxx

[C.Stein]

did u hope u mite get back together?

I pitched the idea of starting over again ... .it got shot down with an "I don't think so" in that never again tone of voice.  As it turns out, I had already been replaced and from the looks of it, 3 months prior to her throwing me away.

I have sent several "closure" emails with the expectation I would not get a reply and to be honest I didn't really want one.  She has not replied to any of them, nor has she even acknowledged we ever had a relationship or she had any feelings for me.   An apology ... .didn't happen even though I have apologized for my part on numerous occasions.   It didn't really bother me because I wasn't expecting a reply, so if you reach out I recommend you do so with no expectations and the knowledge that a reply may add to the pain you already feel.

I'm happy to hear you are making some good progress healing and finding some joy in your life again.  

[flourdust]

Closure is really a fantasy. Consider that you're not only envisioning meeting up with him, but how you'll act and how he'll act, and how you'll feel when it's over. Real life (especially with BPD partner) doesn't go that neatly.

The best thing you can do is to keep up your therapy, keep living your life and meeting new people, and accept that you need time and patience to heal.

[livednlearned]

I might put a therapy appointment on the books as soon as I could following the meeting, to try and process whatever happens.

It might also help to run through different scenarios and consider with the help of your T how you would feel.

1. He agrees, and then doesn't show

2. He agrees, and shows up drunk

3. He agrees, shows up, is in a tender cycle

4. He agrees, shows up, and hurts with words or attitude

5. He agrees, shows up, and his behavior is altogether confusing

6. He agrees, shows up, and brings his new GF

7. He agrees, shows up, and says he is in love for the first time in his life with the GF

8. He never responds

9. He responds with an angry text or email, says no

10 He responds with an angry text, then apologizes, then gets angry again, etc.

I guess the question is what closure would look like for you if any of these scenarios or others played out.

[KatyK2016]

My advice would be to not do it. It never turns out well in my experience and seeking closure while they want to be left alone add to them devaluing you.

They will view you as needy and desperate for their attention when he made it clear he wanted to move on. It ended messy because he is mentally ill. It always will. 

Save your dignity and leave it be until he comes back to you. I'm sure he will. if you want nothing to do with him then you have nothing to lose by leaving things the way they are.

If you want him as your friend with boundaries know that does not work very long 97% of the time. Pushing the boundaries is all a part of the fun with them and testing the partner never stops.

Every time I reached out to mine it turned out bad or was ignored. Mostly ignored. My ex also has BPII however you can expect the similar results.

If he agrees to show up this has been my experienced with my ex when I tried to seek closure:

1) They  show up with a new attitude on life. To really show you just how great things are going and how much better his life is without you. He will blame you for triggering him and your behavior in the break however he will have no logical explanation for his behavior. He may say he never loved you or that you deserve someone better than him. You will leave with more questions and he will still want to stay separated. He will say hurtful things to you that will set you back in recovery and make you feel like crap while his ego is supplied. He will still have you on a string.He won't accept any responsibility and give you a half a** apology. 

2) He won't show.

3) He will show up willing to do anything to fix this relationship. He has rehearsed his I'm sorry to you a million times leading up to meeting with you. He will tell you what you want to hear and take responsibility for everything. He will agree and agree and agree hoping that you drop everything and stop talking about all the issues you have. He'll follow his apology with attempts to get you to have sex with him.

[cherryblossom]

well he said what we had was the pinnacle of love, -he loves me and physically I'm perfect for him but he doesn't want to be in a relationship with me (at end), I am an amazing person -I am really funny -we should have just been really good friends... .he often said I was too good for him during our relationship and I think i am a much bigger person than him, I had to shrink to meet him, he is governed by fear -I try to be governed by love, ---ok some of his words could be idealization -but they never stopped -he was genuinely loving throughout... .people around us knew how much he loved me but also how "unwell" he was ----they would say our relationship was a beautiful car crash -I didn't want to listen... .I am reading women who run with the wolves atm by Clarissa Pinkola Estes -a seminal work on the inner psyche of women ---a must for all female nons ----I think he was the physical manifestation of my inner self destruct mode -the "bluebeard" which we all have -he  made me loose my balance -my self destruct mode is strong - I need to always be aware of -with him I looked to the left and right -I ignored my intuition -because I was so attracted to him ... .but he is a human being -he cannot help being so damaged and set at such a young stage of psychic development -but he was very special to me ----even though I have had lot of pain ---he was a gift as I am learning more and more about myself and my inner world and learning more and more about what to do to succeed -I would not have had this gift had I not met him, life is a series of life's and deaths with relationships, feelings, thoughts -he was part of my journey ----I guess I just want him to know all this -if he goes off into the sunset with this other chick -so be it ----I regained a lot of confidence and hope and direction on this holiday ----there is still this little part of me that thinks he is feeling "___ what the heck just happened -what did I do?"  I know he has chosen someone less attractive to him than me and less accomplished so that probably suits him better in terms of his ego -but I know I was very important to him as we would not have had a 2 half year relationship and had such a deep connection. If we met and he acts in crazy ways or doesn't show etc... .then I guess I can finally lay to rest any delusions I may be having about him -no? Or maybe I should just carry on focusing on me and if he truly does have some depth (i am possibly projecting onto him) then he would contact me ---but if he does feel intense shame then he probably wont---but as an adult who is the healthier one maybe I should be the guide at repairing? -or maybe I shouldn't be wasting my time and energy on thinking about it! I have therapy Monday i'll speak with my T and reflect. I guess i left it last as me having the last word and being haughty before locking him on fbk and deleting his number and I think I just want to try and rectify that for my own peace -so I could say something like

-"I can understand if this silence is the best between us and if you don't respond so be it----however just want you to know I have no hard feelings now and if you wanted to reach out I would listen" xxx

[cherryblossom]

do you know what though more and more I'm thinking -just leave it let sleeping dogs lie!

[cherryblossom]

Katy K -just out of interest what would be so bad about option 3?

[tryingsome]

Katy K -just out of interest what would be so bad about option 3?

Because the pwBPD is not sincere. Sincerity/Apologies are about making the future better, pwBPD tend to work in the now.

It's a different framing of life, neither good nor bad. But the actions now have little to do with the future.

Closure comes when you realize you are two very separate people. Not a high level which you probably understand, but a more spiritual level.

Like two rocks from the same stone, connected yet will always be dissimilar. That you can never control how someone reacts toward you.

Once you reach the point that you can let them suffocate, then you can have a relationship with them.

Let their trials be there own. Your trial is learning to live with them.

[cherryblossom]

Hi ts can u pls explain ur last 3 points in a different way not sure i understand what you mean exactly thank you 

[KatyK2016]

Did he actually say your relationship was a “pinnacle of love? “LOL Sometimes I have to sit back when I hear statements like that. Who talks like that? No, but really though! My ex used to pull out $500 words all the time when he was trying to prove a point in fighting. Or he’d suddenly pull out random facts about every mobster killing that took place in the 7o’s. It’s actually a part of their condition in trying to establishing self because they have no identity. Thus why they need to mirror to get their next supply. They are known to be plagiarist and memorize whatever they have seen, read or heard to store and use for later time so they can seem uber intelligent when getting a point across in random conversations. This installs trust in us that this person is not only intelligent but also makes you question why you don’t know those facts. It’s so bazaar and part of the game.  So I hope you don’t take offense to that response.

“I always called him out on unacceptable behavior and always attempted to put up boundaries -he just pushed and pushed until in end I had to flee our home because he was behaving so disgracefully. I'm also a very independent well liked good looking person -things I should be cherished for by a partner------ not secretly having jealousy fear and resentment stored up against me because of those qualities and attempts to control /dominate me” Your Words!---This does not sound like a pinnacle of Love.

There is nothing beautiful about a car crash. They cause catastrophic damage and sometimes death so in that sense yes should look at your relationship in that context and what it can possibly do to your emotional and mental well being.

They ALL say they still want to stay friends. I feel like that “Let’s just be friends” line should be listed as a bonafide symptom!  So he wants to be your friends but he also wants to keep banging you while wooing and spending time with your replacement. Once the replacement gets sick of his BS or they get into a fight he will yoyo back to you because you left the door open.

And I would NOT send him a message that you don’t have any hard feelings. You do. He was a jerk to you. He abandoned your relationship and blindsided you with a replacement. There are lots of feelings to deal with there and both of you have to be willing to do so if you want to move past it. If you send that message you are basically  brushing everything under the rug so you can start the cycle again only this time you will be holding more resentment that you can’t really talk about because you told him no hard feelings. He will continue to treat you poorly as a friend and why would you want a friend that you can’t trust?

You are offering “friendship” hoping to possibly get back the relationship you had with him. You’ll fix the mistakes this time but you’ll find yourself right back where you started in less than 60 days.

The problem with option number 3 is you are leaving the door open for his manipulation when his actions have clearly shown does not care as much as you do. In seeking closure you are anticipating that his response will be remorse about this situation and that he is truly sorry. Yet he has made no action or done anything to show you this. You just assume this because you think you know him so well. You assume you know how he’s feeling but you don’t. Even meeting with a non partner, hoping to seek closure after they have found someone else is a 50/50 bet. With a BPD partner your chances are drastically less successful. They are not thinking like a rational person and very unpredictable. They are living for the now and right now you are not a part of his new “right now” in fact you are distraction.

You are also reminder of pain and responsibility. Feelings he does not want to confront or deal with. Chances are if you told him how you feel it could backfire and drive him farther away. He doesn’t have to act crazy for you to realize that he is not healthy for you. You already know he is mentally ill and doesn’t want to take care of himself. Why should you?

Please do yourself some love and do NO CONTACT.  Please take this chance to do some self-reflection; see what made you stay in that destructive environment and take his BS!  You will realize that this is part of growing up. Those pieces inside of us that when things are good we don't bother to fix. Growing by pain is a beautiful thing.  You're capable of loving yourself enough to NOT allow this to happen to you again. Your eyes will be open to the endless possibilities and then next person you meet; you will be able to recognize right away if that person is emotionally healthy.

As for your ex, feel pity for him because you will recognize, heal, and find happiness but for him it's just a circle of hate, anger, fear, shame, and guilt. You are putting your emotions and mind in jeopardy by staying with him. Don’t think you’re missing out on him; in reality he is missing out on you. And that’s the way it will be FOREVER.

He can find some other woman after woman but there is nothing. Same tune different instrument. He will remain FOREVER that way.  BPD’s suffer from an (emotional-mental) illness. They live a false-self, they live with their egos.  He wears a mask all the time, and because he has a mountain of anxiety and insecurities that’s why he has created a false self. Don’t think that his current lady is having a wonderful time; you know what he gives, you were there for over 2 years. Like I said they wear a mask so in due time that other woman will be running for the hills soon too.

So, be strong and heal because they are notorious to come back and do another round of pain. I hope this gives you some peace.

[cherryblossom]

Wow katy k - thank u - i needed to hear that! Like someone else said I need to accept it will take long time to heal and this wanting to contact for closure dilema is part of the process - thanks for your well reasoned detailed response. I truly dont want to know him unless he sets out to be and commits himself to recovery through observable action - which would for me to believe is of any use weekly long term psychotherapy, attendence to an AA, coda or al anon meeting (his dad is alcoholic), reading everything he can get his hands on r.e BPD, reading books on healthy male psyche development and joining a BPD survivor support group and to be doing this for 6 months at least before meeting face 2 face - u r right if he doesn't want to take of self why i should i be caring? Even though we hav split i think i need to read stop caretaking the borderline xxx

[KatyK2016]

  CherryBlossom

Your plan is  extensive and sound great. Isn't funny how much you care and they don't? I just keep thinking if it was me and I knew I was causing destruction in peoples lives and hurt, I'd pick up a book and make an appointment. It seems like with some BPD's they deny the illness or can't see it as it's happening so they won't get help. In my case BPD is a concurrent condition to my ex's Bipolar 2, which is a whole other bag of fun.  

You've clearly been doing lot of research and love this man. You can do your best to present the information and encourage him on a path to wellness. Just remember by doing this you are going to be sucked back except this time you are more vested and also have new hope that he will continue this lifestyle AND THINGS WILL GO BACK TO THE WAY THEY WERE. I can tell you they 100% won't. This false hope we give ourselves when connecting with our partner again, THIS is where I think we set ourselves up for failure.

The best advice I can offer is to look at the facts up till now and ask yourself what's realistic change for this guy. Questions to think about:

Has he been properly diagnosed? If not then that's the first step in taking the right steps towards treatment. In some cases BPD run concurrent with other disorders as in the case of my ex.

How long has he known about his diagnosis? --the reason I ask this is because if he was diagnosed recently he may not know what BPD symptoms entail or how to try to monitor/control his moods. If this is the case I'd say that there could be more of successful chance for him to manage and control his behavior. It he was diagnosed as a teen or early twenties and he is presumingly middle aged male (age 25-35) then that's a different story. Your chances of him recognizing and changing are incredibly low. In fact I'll go as far as to say 98% not going to happen. That's because this means he was well aware of his condition and the behavior and destruction that come with it for over 20 years. He knows that has had failed friendships and relationships and does nothing to improve his behavior because he doesn't see anything wrong with it. If he is ok with this lifestyle your conversation will not change him after X amount of years him being the same ol him.  

Will he really have the disciplined to follow through with a treatment plan? You were with him for 2 years. Does he follow through? If you you can't honestly say yes off the top of your head then you know if your heart he won't. He may give it a go but it wont last. It's the nature of the beast. This is the main reason you should walk away. If you know he will not follow through and does not want to help himself... .THAT and you don't want to be treated like garbage  

How long are you willing to put up with this if he fails to follow through with his promises and does this again? If your answer is one more time then stop while you're ahead. You'll just end up resenting him for causing additional pain.

Your story is similar to mine and it seems we were both in relationships for about the same amount of time with someone who is mentally ill. There were enough red flags in my relationship that I could have come out with a new runway collection!

BPD are drawn to whatever greener grass is suddenly in reach... and on the flipside, if they are lonely, an ex partner can get recycled just to temporarily ease their loneliness.

A lot of BPD behavior is split between "being down"... and then "living it up" in the moment that your mind and body cooperate from a mood perspective. These patterns can cause a lot of burned bridges with mates, friends and family. So they cut you off, recruit you again later, reuse, recycle, repeat.  

Basically, if you are up for it, and there is no other source of narcissistic supply, the Borderline will not leave any tappable resource untapped - that would be a waste.

Its not that they intend to exploit relationships, but they usually part when they have expected too much and are refused, or if they are asked to provide too much in reciprocation they will walk away.

Borderlines leave when they are up a notch in the game.This is all self-defense mechanisms developed from having to preserve their identity and sanity form emotional abusive or neglectful upbringings. They learn to cut their losses and also to use everything up to its maximum until they get called out on it.  So you will be cut out... or recycled... or both, over and over.

[cherryblossom]

He has ocd, he was diagnosed with BPD just before we split -as his cbt therapist was concerned about his presentation -he had been making good progress in his ocd treatment -then things seemed to go down hill -he allowed me to join his last session with her -he at this point he said he was too tired to keep doing therapy -it was too hard. At this point he had recently started a new job and made some new friends he liked (and probably started setting up my replacement unbeknowst to me). He was always insecure about his lack of friends in the city-(even though he was a well liked member of the band and I had met some of his old friends from school-I explained to him in life we all go through periods of more sociability than others). He then proceeded to make life difficult by going out and getting out of it with these new friends when he was trying to not drink so much etc... .he was meant to be focusing on our relationship in therapy. I would return home from work and he would be drunk on strong lager and playing loud music, blatantly self harming in the lounge and jumping on me and acting mental -after a day at work in the field of mental health! I literally had to flee the home and stay with a friend -our relationship broke down and he would not talk to me sober to try and repair it. In these last days there were fleeting moments of clarity from him and he said he felt like he was making a big mistake by splitting with me, he also asked if I would be able to cope with his new diagnosis? I said I could if he sought proper help -but he would not speak to me sober and commit to any positive action. We agreed 6 weeks nc. his bday was in-between -I didn't message him -he tried to ring me-I messaged him back explaining why I hadn't sent a message. 6 weeks came and went neither of us made 1st attempt to contact each other. We saw each other at a mutual friend's bday party - he behaved strangely -trying to get me to speak to him as if nothing had happened. In this time he owed me £300 andsomething pound which he would not communicate properly about. Still no heart to heart conversation. Then I see a pic of him with ex on his sister fbk page-i messaged the sister she confirmed was an old picture. She told me he was seeing someone at work -I laid into him about this via text -he eventually paid my money back. I decided to block him from facebook and delete his number. People can understand why i feel i need closure. I am improving day by day in terms of letting go and healing. Yesterday a mutual friend talked to me about us and said she and everyone understands why I stayed so long as he is a beautiful person but his refusal to take care of himself is destructive and soon he will burn bridges with everyone and that is sad.

Thank yo for your insights and views they will give me something to reflect on xxx

[cherryblossom]

he has studied psychology at degree level, he is very interested in human behaviour. He was into personal growth and healing, I think this was a setback -a major one that was bad consequences for me also -but I think he has it in him to recover -but I dont know when or what will make him jump back on the bandwagon. So I am best off just living my life and if he comes to me he does -if he decides to recover he does -but equal chance he may not -it's very 50/50.

Plus realistically my friends and family would not like me to get back together with him -(unless he followed the plan I have stated -and he would have to apologise to them as well as me-could he tolerate the shame of that? hmmm not sure -but if he truly manned up and dedicated himself then maybe)

Its all very uncertain isnt it!

[cherryblossom]

and it is interesting -as tolerating uncertainty is what he has to do to overcome ocd -I feel like I am having to do the same to live and move on

[cherryblossom]

I feel like i am reaching that spiritual place of acceptance and i dont think im naive to expect things to return how they were but theres still genuine love there for him even after all he has done and if he did get back on bandwagon Id have time for him xxx

[cherryblossom]

Equally i am happy to move on and live my life - i have many goals and new plans x

[cherryblossom]

I think he knows the only bridge back to me entails recovery focus so im unsure he will ever reach out to me or see me as narcissistic supply

[C.Stein]

i have many goals and new plans x

Would you like to share them with us?   

[Hopeful07]

From personal experience, trying to force a meeting with them when they are still trying to ignore you isn't a good option. You won't actually be meeting the person you care about, you'll be meeting the disease. They will act so cold and it just makes you feel worse.

[cherryblossom]

Thanks for advice hopeful... .

Sure c stein... .my plans /goals are performing at day of dead festival in mexico next year, learning spanish, learning reiki, buying a property, lots of gigs etc lined up to watch and perform at, festivals, writing a play, improving my guitar skills, increasing my yoga practice, restoring old furniture. ... phew!

[C.Stein]

my plans /goals are performing at day of dead festival in mexico next year, learning spanish, learning reiki, buying a property, lots of gigs etc lined up to watch and perform at, festivals, writing a play, improving my guitar skills, increasing my yoga practice, restoring old furniture. ... phew!

Good for you CB!   

Very ambitious, sounds like a lot of fun too.  Kinda envious.   

[cherryblossom]

What are yours c stein? 

[C.Stein]

What are yours c stein?  

To find a way to finally let go of my ex (i.e. achieve indifference), get out of the hole I am in and grow as an individual.

If I can do that I will be happy.   Not nearly as ambitious or fun as yours.