I'm hoping you will have some ideas for me...

[thefixermom]

My uBPD D38 is moving far away in a few short weeks.  She has been living with us since March as a transition for the move.   She moved to the same far away state across the country some 18 years ago and it did not work out very well.  She's moving back in with the same room mate who hates me (having never met me) because of all the stories D has told her.  D and this roommate do not generally get along real well long term either. The room mate tends to borrow $ from D and then later make D feel that not repaying the loan is justified. Roommate also goes through periods where she refuses to talk with D.  But D is convinced that things have changed and the grass is greener going back to the same thing she did before.  However, I have surrendered to the idea that I cannot change D's mind.  She says she's going and that's that.   My DH (stepdad) says that if things don't work out and D wants to move back with us, he will not allow it.  He says it is  past time for her to be on her own come what may.   He says that at our age (60's) he wants some "us" time where we are not worrying about or caring for my D.  I will not agree to DH's rule and told him so.   But we will cross that bridge when and if we come to it. 

My D is getting along pretty good with me. She hangs out with me, talks to me about things going on in her life, asks for feedback and we have some funny moments, too.  But she will not participate in things with me... .for instance, she wouldn't ride a bike down the road with me, or do anything that is "family like."  She will not let me update her on things that are going on with the extended family (aunts, uncles, cousins).  She blames me for her estrangement with the them.  Fact is, they have all tried to include her and she will not participate.  She has a delusion that I orchestrated a split in the family against her.  The worst I can admit to is that I did call the family one night when she was raging and assaulted me and another time when she was screaming profanity at me in the car and I couldn't make her stop and was becoming shaken by the experience.  Those were the days when I had no knowledge of BPD and tried to handle things with her "normally."   

Here's where I need your help... .

She won't allow me to hug or touch her and yells at me to "shut up" when I say, "I love you."     I am filled with thoughts about her getting on the plane and flying away soon and not being able to hug her goodbye and then suffering with no contact once she is gone.   I want to do everything possible in the next few weeks to build a bridge between us.  I have been doing so in every way I can.  Nearly all positive things I say to her are followed with the statement: "You are only saying that because you have a plan to manipulate me."   If I ask her not to do something, she loudly says, "Stop trying to shame me!"   If I do something for her, like fold her clothes, she stops folding them herself and says, "You did it for me so I figured you were going to keep doing it."  I have been secretly wishing I could hug her for quite some time, envisioning her falling into my arms and hugging me back and us both being able to know the love between us.  I hate that she is moving away and taking with her this rock solid belief that "my mother is a psycho who wants to sabotage my life."   I decided to come clean with my desire and for a couple days now, I have just been saying matter of factly, "Can I hug you today?" and she bristles and says, "OF COURSE NOT!"   My sense is that even though she is behaving this way on the outside, some inner locked away part of her is enjoying that she does have a mom who loves her.   She has forgotten or dismissed the thousands of hours and dollars of help and assistance and anguished sleepless nights we have donated and many trips we've made on her behalf with no strings attached just to help her out of a predicament.  Not just us, but the rest of the family, too.  I am not in a position where I can easily make those trips any more and the thought of her getting very sick or in some awful situation 3,000 miles away haunts me.

So, I sit here, humbly asking if there's anything I can do that I may not have done or be doing? Anything that might trigger a loosening of the black beliefs she holds against me.

Thank you for any input, or advice.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Rapt Reader]

Have you ever read "Co-Dependent No More" by Melody Beattie? In it, she tells about how the more we might try to get close to a reluctant loved one, the more that loved one might push us away. And then, if we back off and detach (with love) a bit, that loved one will come closer to us now that we are not pushing for the closeness. Have you tried that with her, thefixermom?

I'm not saying to give her the cold shoulder or anything like that, but just suggesting maybe easing up a bit with the need to show her your love and trying to feel her love for you back, so much. It would also free you up from the stress of wanting her reciprocation, and would give yourself some breathing room to take care of you for awhile. Once you are lovingly and happily letting her go (and since she's moving soon, you have to do that anyway), she very likely will surprise you and start being more interested in being warm and affectionate with you.

I read that book (and here are some links that are about Co-Dependency, too: Are we co-dependent? and Dealing with Enmeshment and Codependence) during a very stressful time in my marriage, and it helped me (and our relationship) a lot 

Just a thought... .

[lbjnltx]

Give her the space she needs to feel her own feelings and make her choice where to meet you in the relationship.  The more you push the more she will pull.

My daughter used to do the same thing when I told her "I love you". She would reply "well, I don't love you" I would say, "That's ok, I love you enough for both of us right now."  When she would tell me "I hate you" I would say, "I know that you feel hate towards me right now and I don't believe deep down inside that you really hate me."

My greatest fear was that my daughter would never believe or feel that I loved her.  That has been completely resolved through much therapy and consistency of healthy support.  She had to define for herself what "love" is. The key is that she did it with help and in her own time. 

I know this is hard to leave alone with her leaving and being so far away. 

lbj

[marie1057]

Dear fixermom

I can relate to some of the things you are saying.

As hard as it is to hear, your husband is right. You do need some "us" time with him. My counselor told me as long as my son knows he can keep coming back home to my protection, he will never seek treatment. I get how hard it will be to say No. I am dealing with Will I make the right choice too. Fear keeps us doing the same things over and over. My son won't let me hug him or even touch his hand. It hurts me so much. I keep thinking a good loving hug may soften his heart but it isn't gonna happen. Even though he attempts to control me thru his actions, the advice about living your own life and backing off is sound advice. He acts like he hates me but when I stop doing loving things constantly for him, and paying so much attention to him, he is scared of abandonment and is nicer to me and makes better decisions for himself to make me proud. Your daughter may be afraid you won't let her come home again and if you (and I) were strong enough we wouldn't let them come home again. Then they will stand on their own two feet and God can start his plan without us attempting to fix them.

[livednlearned]

Hi thefixermom,

Maybe your D feels that you are expecting her to comfort you? She might be feeling that it's your job to soothe yourself, you're the adult. Even though she's an adult herself, she's still your child, and may resent any shift in the parental role.

Also, you mention in the first part of your note that you don't have confidence that she'll be ok. It's likely that she knows you feel this, on some level. So your emotions (wanting to be close) are bundled with other feelings (doubting her abilities), so she is rejecting the whole package, which means rejecting you.

My mom (very codependent person, who is an "adult child" has a lot of expectations that her kids will validate her feelings, including her grandkids. This is hard for all of us. As her child, it feels like a role-reversal of the parent-child relationship. In healthy relationships, perhaps it is possible to tolerate some role reversal. Even between two codependent types (me and my mom), I feel she tries to get her emotional needs met from her kids and that puts a strain on her relationships. She is a kind, loving, generous person. She also mistakes her acts of kindness for authentic emotional work -- and seeks our approval for whether she is doing ok or not.

This could be different in your situation, it's always possible your D has other motivations. Whatever it is, I do think most likely it goes back to what Rapt Reader and lbjnltx are saying about codependence, which is particularly challenging in a parent-child relationship where nurturing is a normal part of a healthy relationship. In the end, we can't expect our kids to nurture us more than we nurture ourselves.

 

[thefixermom]

I've been thinking about the replies here but either too busy or tired to dive into a response.  Still that way, but will do my best.  

livdnlearned, I don't think my D thinks I expect her to comfort me.  I don't ever ask or hint at her to validate my feelings. (Edited to add: "But I will think more about this because it could be I'm missing the truth"... . I just tell her how I feel so that she will have a memory somewhere deep inside one day (maybe) that I spoke my heart to her.  I was mainly trying something new because of the long standing status quo, just to see if she would soften at all.  BPD is a damned if you do, damned if you don't relationship in that if I become detached, she accuses me of being aloof and not caring.  If I attempt to show love, she pounces on me like a lion who's been patiently waiting for its prey to show up.   I do agree, though, that she realizes I'm concerned about her doing well, with the recipe of plans she has made for herself.   I'm hearing your words, however, and others, too, that seem to say I'm coming across as co-dependent.  That is interesting to me that you say your mom mistakes her acts of kindness for authentic emotional work.  In my case, I feel that it's all I can do, offer acts of kindness, because my DD has to dominate (talk over, yell, be self-righteous) about any and all emotional issues between us. I simply cannot wade in there, even if to say that she is right... .the damned if you do takes over and she cuts me off, saying that I'm trying to manipulate her.  Thank you for your input. I like to read and reread the responses to help them sink in.

marie1057,  same here regarding the hugging and touching.  I know my daughter needs and probably even craves it, but has built up quite a solid wall.  My DD does seek me out when I'm off doing my own thing, but she often accuses me of ignoring her, too. If I don't have the right intonation in my voice, i.e. if I sound "too nice" or "not interested enough" she stops the conversation in its tracks and brings up years old events and yells at me about them.   And yes, I understand about my husband and I needing more "us" time but to be frank, DD has not cut into our personal time much at all, if at all.  :)h and I have lots of time together both in the house and outside of it.   DH mostly just resents that she isn't very neat and lacks executive ability to manage her time and to complicate it, DH also believes BPD does not exist and says my DD only has bad habits.  He has finally let go of his attempts at "tough love" this past week when he realized he was just banging his head on the wall figuratively because it was not at all working.  He is softened up quite a bit, despite his personal beliefs, and I am so relieved.  

lbjnitx, I'm very happy that your daughter has resolved so much through therapy and healthy support.  That would be a dream come true.  My daughter adamantly does not want therapy.  She says the problem is all me and that I need a psychiatrist to address my psychosis.  She has diagnosed me as a malignant narcissist and psychotic abusive mother out to sabotage her daughter.  I'm pretty sure it's because she sees herself approaching 40 and cannot accept that all her choices thus far have led to her still living at home and not having the right career or much in the way of finances.  She says whether I love her or not means nothing to her.  And yet, she measures all my words to see if they are loving or not.  Tonight, she dressed up to go out for wine with a friend and asked me if I liked her outfit.  I told her that yes I liked it that it was fine. I said it in a positive and sincere way. And i was in the middle of doing her dishes and cleaning up after her because she said, "I'm going to be late meeting my friend, will you please do the dishes for me?"   A couple minutes later she came into the kitchen and said, "I know you don't like me because you dismissed my outfit with a 'fine' when all my other friends tell me I look 'Great!' in this outfit. You deliberately want me to feel like I don't look good in it."

Rapt Reader,  yes, I have read that book.  And typically I do practice loving detachment.  It has helped but just hasn't resulted in any breakthroughs so I was experimenting with something a bit different.  It does sound like everyone is saying that for me to speak more of love as I've been doing lately is only going to make things worse, not better.

Thank you all for your feedback. I know it comes with much experience behind it and my pondering, studying and practicing is far from over.  

[lbjnltx]

lbjnitx, I'm very happy that your daughter has resolved so much through therapy and healthy support.  That would be a dream come true.  My daughter adamantly does not want therapy.  She says the problem is all me and that I need a psychiatrist to address my psychosis.  She has diagnosed me as a malignant narcissist and psychotic abusive mother out to sabotage her daughter.

My daughter also blamed me for all her problems, unhappiness, and behaviors.  She told her therapist one day that "if she would just let me do what I want I would be happy".  The therapist told her "I don't believe that." It was the one and only time (that I recall) in 3 years of sessions that he confronted her. 

 I'm pretty sure it's because she sees herself approaching 40 and cannot accept that all her choices thus far have led to her still living at home and not having the right career or much in the way of finances.

She doesn't have the coping skills to deal with the pain that would come when she accepts responsibility for herself, it could be down right dangerous for her to... .it's best done in small doses /in therapy.

 She says whether I love her or not means nothing to her.

We know this is not true, it means everything to her.  Continue to speak positive affirmations of unconditional love, acceptance, belief in her abilities, and hope for her future.

 And yet, she measures all my words to see if they are loving or not.

She will try to find ways to reinforce her feelings of being unloved to validate herself.  She will nit pick at every opportunity.  All we, as parents, can do is remain steadfast in our love for our kids, apologize when we fail to do so and model the behaviors we wish to see in our children/adult children.

 Tonight, she dressed up to go out for wine with a friend and asked me if I liked her outfit.  I told her that yes I liked it that it was fine. I said it in a positive and sincere way. And i was in the middle of doing her dishes and cleaning up after her because she said, "I'm going to be late meeting my friend, will you please do the dishes for me?"   A couple minutes later she came into the kitchen and said, "I know you don't like me because you dismissed my outfit with a 'fine' when all my other friends tell me I look 'Great!' in this outfit. You deliberately want me to feel like I don't look good in it."

fixermom, if I asked someone how I looked in an outfit and they said "you look fine" my first thought would be "hmm, wonder if I should change clothes?"  Fine, ok, alright... .signify passing and not great... .maybe it's just me.   I wouldn't advise anyone to be less than authentic in their opinions and I would advise them to not pass up an opportunity to rebuild their relationship with their kids... .in situations such as this replying with "you're a lovely lady and you look lovely tonight" would be relationship building.  Any perceived criticism about them (their choice in clothing) is a criticism of them as a person.  When I didn't care for my d's choice of clothing (and there were many many times!) I would reply with "You definitely have your own style, you could set a trend" rather than "I don't care for what your wearing".

Being distracted from being fully present in the moment (washing dishes for her) jeopardizes our opportunities to interact in fully healthy ways.  There will be other opportunities in the future so don't be too hard on yourself... .plan for a better tomorrow.



lbj

[thefixermom]

lbjnitx,  I'm touched by your comment that she doesn't have the coping skills to deal with the pain that would come when she accepts responsibility for herself.  That brings up the compassion inside me at a time when I am struggling against the seemingly non-stop verbal put downs and judgment coming at me these days.  I'm wondering, too, if my DD is putting me in as bad of a light as possible to bolster her strength to leave and move far away.  Sometimes fueling hate can be a motivator that allows one not to think or feel too much during difficult transitions.

I thank you for your insight into my comment "fine."   What I left out of the story because of length was that my DD had already tried on one blouse and asked me what I thought.  She was wincing herself so I said, "No, not that one." And she agreed and replaced it with the 2nd one to which I said, "Yes, that one is fine!"  I really did try to say it upbeat but as you say, too, I was distracted with the dishes and food clean up as we have an ant problem in the kitchen right now and the sun was setting and I was trying to get finished and outside to water before it got dark. But alas, I DO need to be mindful of distractions during these important interactions.  Still, for my DD to say that I obviously wanted to sabotage her for my comment hit me out of left field... .as I did not at all intend to convey that.  I get hit out of left field a lot these days so it shouldn't shock me, .  My left is pretty bruised right now.

Your response was thought-provoking and I appreciate more than you know, the encouragement and the help with constructing better phrases.  I thank you... and the others so much!    Yes, there will be more opportunities and I hope to be better prepared and awake for them.