Book Research: What happened the first time you said "no" to your partner with BPD?

[Randi Kreger]

This is research for an upcoming book and I'm asking fr your thoughts to a specific question.

Hey there--I'm Randi, the coauthor of Stop Walking on Eggshells and the author of the SWOE Workbook and the Essential Family Guide to BPD.  

Do you remember the first time you had the courage to say no? To put yourself first sometimes?

I’m looking for tips you may have to help others with BPD or NPD do things like the thing below for the very first time.

1. Trust your own sense of reality.
2. Take care of yourself and put yourself first sometimes
3. Say no.
4. Do something you really want to do even if your partner doesn’t like it
5. Not account for every minute of your time, or guard your privacy
6. Not feel guilty

What was your experience? How did you get the courage to do it? Add whatever you feel you accomplished. I will assume if you write something down that you’re giving me permission to share it with others.

Thank you so much!

[Ozzie101]

Thank you for the challenge, Randi. And thank you for the book. It was a real eye-opener for me and has helped me a lot in my journey.

I'll answer the ones I have immediate responses to:

1. Trust your own sense of reality.
For me, it was when my uBPDh said something particularly outlandish. Up until that point, I had believed that his rages and irritations were all my fault. Once he really said something off the beam, it finally dawned on me that something wasn't right. It was like a veil lifted and I saw that, no, I was not fully to blame and I was not losing my mind.
Since then, I've had more courage to stand my ground while also remaining calm -- detaching so I can validate his feelings.

2. Take care of yourself and put yourself first sometimes
One day recently, I said I was going Christmas shopping. I was and I did. But I also went out to eat lunch by myself at a place I liked. It was a pleasant, relaxing experience. The people who worked there were extra-friendly and cheerful. I felt better just being there, interacting with happy-seeming, pleasant people. It was nice to know that, yes, this is something I'm allowed to do sometimes. I just had to decide to do it.

3. Say no.
He finally demanded something of my I could not and would not agree to: he wanted me to cut off my family. I looked in his eyes and said "no." He didn't like it at all, but it seemed to deflate him. I didn't get angry. I didn't argue. I didn't get emotional. I just calmly and firmly said "no." It was a very liberating feeling -- I'd drawn a line in the sand, finally, and having that line drawn was a relief to me.

[itsmeSnap]

I'm sort of new here, havent read the book but I want to participate haha

I’m looking for tips you may have to help others with BPD or NPD do things like the thing below for the very first time. What was your experience? How did you get the courage to do it? For example:

1. Trust your own sense of reality.
2. Take care of yourself and put yourself first sometimes
3. Say no.
4. Do something you really want to do even if your partner doesn’t like it
5. Not account for every minute of your time, or guard your privacy
6. Not feel guilty

Add whatever you feel you accomplished. I will assume if you write something down that you’re giving me permission to share it with others.

After I learned about BPD and having broken up with my gf a few times I basically just told her what I wanted, she had been mean and attacking my ego (you're not man enough, nobody will love you, you are a pushover, I'm using you because I can). After she tried talking to me again, I told her "I need you to promise one thing to me: you have to be nice to me, no questions asked".

She tried to argue with me on why she had to do anything I said and why did I get to set the rules and "you think you have me wrapped around your finger huh?". I would tell her "you have to be nice with me, don't argue with me on this."

When she realized I was serious and would not back off she just said "ok fine". Never again has she been mean to me, not even after we broke up yet again.

I don't know if that counts, it was a remarkable experience for me. I was ready for whatever consequences if she said she would not do it, but thankfully she did.I know it takes a lot of strength to stand your ground in the face of such situations, but it worked for us.

Good luck on your project!

[Cat Familiar]

I've had a number of pwBPD in my life: mother, first husband, boyfriend, second husband, friends. I'm a BPD magnet!

I think the common thread that ran through all the firsts with each of these people was getting to the point where I felt: let the chips fall where they may.

I suppose what led up to that point was thinking about the worst case scenario that might happen should I stand up for myself. And when I realized that I could tolerate that, then there wasn't anything holding me back.

Surprisingly enough, when I did stand up to them, and I was calm and centered, the reaction I experienced was far less than what I imagined could have happened.

[Purplex]

For me it was when he invited me to his birthday party which already caused me to get a bit nervous because I didn't really know any of his friends yet. We were no couple at that point in time but we certainly established that we had feelings for each other. He created an atmospere where he was the center of attention at all times and nobody else was allowed to interact with eachother without him getting involved or stopping the conversation. He showed zero interest in me and got touchy with another girl instead. I tried to play it cool because I didn't want to come across as needy or ruin his evening but I was so angry inside. And since he kind of forced everybody to keep still and follow his lead there was no chance for me to distract myself and get rid of this anger. We went to a club later that evening and I was standing outside talking to one of his friends when he came up to me complaining that I wasn't inside looking after him. This was the last straw for me. I told him that I was not his damn bodyguard, that I felt used and like he was taking me for granted. That his behavior hurt me because it made me feel like I was utterly unimportant to him.  
He was horrified. Said he never intended for me to feel this way, apologized profoundly and really made an effort to show his affection and make me feel comfortable for the rest of the evening. It just never occured to him that his behavior would have such an impact on me.

This was the first time I stood up for myself in this relationship. I felt so betrayed, that I couldn't justify putting his interests before mine anymore. It was a relieving and empowering experience and his reaction was surprisingly understanding and supportive. Now I try to adress issues before they go to my head.

[loyalwife]

In the past, I've had to report to my husband, where I'm going , who I'm going to see etc. I felt as though he kept track of the odometer (which he did) and kept a timer as to how long I was gone. I asked my therapist about it as he was being triggered when I went to see my kids. She suggested that I tell him a white lie. In the hope of keeping things safe and calm, doing so was reasonable. At first I felt guilty, but then felt relieved that he wasn't going to go down the rabbit hole again. Somehow, he has caught onto the less contact with my kids, and mentioned that he didn't mind if I saw my kids as that would be fine. I fell for his suggestion (wrong), and started to tell him my plans again. He's on a rage again.  Now, I realize that I must follow through and not revert back to my old behavior of telling him everything. 

[JNChell]

The first time that I said “no” to S4’s mom, it didn’t go well. It was early in the relationship. I was actually practicing healthy boundaries. I was working a night shift and she would come by every night during my dinner break. This meant that I wasn’t eating, but spending that half hour with her. One night I told her that I’d like to eat my dinner. It didn’t go over well. The guilt was layed on pretty thick. I felt like I had done something wrong. I felt responsible for her feelings. I tried to explain to her that it wasn’t anything personal. I simply wanted to eat. It didn’t matter. I know now that she saw it as me placing dinner before her.

[Caco Canepa]

There was one watershed moment where I did hold the line. I'll describe how we got to that. But first I think it's useful to show some of the the times I tried to hold a boundary. Maybe those were my initial "no's" and it shows the pattern:

• Pressure to take the relationship to the next level — to make it "Facebook official" even though I was uncomfortable with going public. I caved because she was going to cut off the relationship over it. I thought maybe I had been too resistant and afraid of commitment, and that I needed to loosen up and take a chance on life.
• After we got engaged, she was unhappy with the ring I'd gotten her and pressured for a more expensive one. I didn't feel it was fiscally prudent to to so at the time; this was one of the first times I'd seen her rage over the course of a few days. Rage, alternated with thoughtful-seeming discussions of why her preference of ring was important to her and how it reflected on how much I love her, eventually wore me down.
• The wedding getting more complicated and going over-budget; but then not inviting key friends that I'd wanted to go
• A whole-house renovation plan that was 4x more expensive than I thought we could afford; I eventually caved and took out a huge loan and depleted savings. (I did put a limit on expenses after a while; and she resented those limits hugely and attacked me for being half-a$$ed about the renovation)
• Combining bank accounts after we got married: I was hesitant because of her debt history, but I caved in to her calm argument of "this is what people do when they love and trust each other" — and my fear of a possible rage response if I said no.
• (I DID resist changing my business structure to make her a partner. Very glad a did that, though she often attacked me for it and said this was proof that I was never really into the relationship with her)
• I wanted to hold off on having a child until we could sort out the relationship troubles and get more financially stable; I eventually caved in to her rages, begging, and rational-sounding arguments about biological clock.

My definite watershed NO came after our child was one year old. We'd been in couples therapy for more than a year already, and things remained as sour as ever, despite our being in our beautiful house with our beautiful child. I'd been reading Brene Brown, and she mentioned a rule in her family about no name-calling being allowed in her home. I floated this to my wife; she was skeptical about it, said that names don't really hurt anyone.

A few mornings later, she yelled at the dog, cursed at it and called him an idiot. I told her I really didn't want to have any name-calling in front of our child, even if it was the dog; her rage escalated as I declined to back down or let it go. (I might have been JADEing at this point). Her behavior became truly scary, her eyes became terrifying pin-points, her teeth were out. I'd seen bits of this before, and I resolved not to cave in on this — I thought that the principle of no name-calling was a worthy one, since name-calling had been directed at me as well.

This particular rage incident spilled out into the front yard as I tried to get away from her and thought the possibility of being seen by neighbors would prevent her from acting like a madwoman. I pulled out my phone and video'd her as she hit me and tried to grab my phone camera. Much more to this incident that I'll spare for now — but this incident was jarring in that it showed that she was willing to do anything if she was challenged by a boundary.

[Barnabus]

First, thank you for the work that you have done. I have listened to Splitting and I'm about halfway through Walking on Eggshells now. Spot on... .

I've been married for over 30 years, finally called it quits and in the divorce process now. There have been several events, but 3 big ones come to mind.

The first was in the late 80's. I had ended a job and had 4 kids. I had a small amount of savings, but had to go to work. I had for years wanted to be in business for myself, so I decided to go into a new business with my brother. She was against it for no apparent reason, so I finally had to make a decision as to how to feed the family (she was a stay at home mom). I did it anyway. To make an incredibly long story short, it did not work out, but I never put the family into financial jeopardy, and I ended up a few other businesses that were very successful.To say that the reaction I got from her was harsh would be a gross understatement. I admitted I shouldn't have handled it that way, and asked her to forgive me. She said she would but never did - she has NEVER really forgiven me, and has brought it up many times through the years, all the while treating my brother like some outcast. Really sad.

In the mid 90's, I had a chance to go to Alaska on a week long hunting and fishing trip with my brother, my Dad (who was not getting any younger), and some friends. She was not in favor, and finally, after trying every reasonable approach to no avail, I said I'm going. Period. For the 3-4 months leading up to the trip, it was almost unbearable - silent treatment, crying, everything you could imagine - like a 4 year old. I didn't back down, and the day that I left, she was crying. When I got to the last place that had telephone service, before I was going to be out of contact for about 6 days, I called her hoping that she would be calmed down. She poured it on even worse. Needless to say, she ruined the trip for me, but I knew I had to stop the incessant "caving in" to her emotional outbursts. A few days after I returned home, she was back to "normal".

I continued being the peacemaker in the family at any cost. When we got sideways over anything, the silent treatment would start and go for days or a couple of weeks, and I would cave in and apologize for things I didn't even do just to keep the peace - all the while putting my happy face on in public and trying to be the Christian husband that I felt God wanted me to be.

To the best of my knowledge, after 39 years of marriage (now 40, but separated), she has never sincerely apologized to me about anything.

In 2017, (my 4 kids were ages 29-36 I think), I had 10 grandkids who had pretty much kept me alive for the previous 8-9 years. My wife had been through menopause about 10-12 years before that, and the crazy making behavior I felt like went on steroids. I was emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and physically shot, and I finally snapped and told her I wasn't living like this any more. I felt we were living a lie and I was done. Her immediate reaction was to move out of the bedroom to "punish" me.

Over the next about 6 months, we went to professional counseling, she refused to do what they (husband and wife) recommended, she packed a suitcase and walked out for several days, came back, after a couple of months attempted to throw me out, I talked her out of it, then she walked out again a couple of months later. She said she wanted to come back, but only if I wasn't there so I left.

Long story short, things only intensified over the next several months, and she to this day maintains that 100% of our problems are on me. She is stonewalling every attempt to get the divorce finalized, and has made herself into the "victim" and has contacted many of my friends and most of my family with her one sided narrative. Unfortunately many people including my kids and church leaders are believing her story.

I have studied, counseled, and prayed more hours than I can count over the last year and a half, and I have learned much about PDs and I see many characteristics of BPD and covert NPD. I'm certainly no professional, but it has helped me to know that I'm not alone dealing with things like this.

I hope some of this may be helpful to you and others - your work has surely been helpful to me.

Barnabus



 

[RomanticFool]

I have gone toe to toe with two women who have uBPD (the most recent may have unpd)., I discovered through protracted texting and face to face arguments, trying to make myself heard, my feelings validated and my boundaries respected that none of it made any difference at all. Once the women concerned had entered the devaluation stage I was wasting my breath. I would always be the aggressor or the unreasonable party. The most recent one had an NPD mother and claimed to be an expert on NPD. She told me on a daily basis that I have the disorder. We were both well versed in the symptoms and I stupidly discussed it with her initially thinking we could help each other. Then she weaponised her knowledge and one day I lost my temper at her perpetual diagnosing and shouted at her and she punched me in the chest, which ricocheted onto my jaw.

I walked out and she begged me to come back apologising profusely. I relented and told her if it ever happened again I’d leave and she agreed. About a week later during another fight I stupidly told her that I thought she may have picked up some traits from her mother and she punched me square in the face. Again I walked out and again she begged me to come back. By the end of the relationship (it lasted 6 months) she denied any aggression towards me and said if I didn’t agree to change and be nicer to her then she would find someone else. I admit to having a temper myself and she was convinced I have NPD traits and by the end of the relationship I was so fed up with arguing and her repeatedly saying she wasn’t being heard and I’m this that and the other that I ended up pacifying her and then she found somebody else anyway.

My conclusion is that no amount of arguing will convince a disordered person of their faults. While they go through the emotional wringer during the arguing it is usually rage (with the most recent one) and she had an inexhaustible supply of justifications, minimisations and finger pointing accusations. Once they know they have you on the back foot and you begin pacifying and trying to reason with them they lose all respect. Glad to be the hell out of it.

RF

[Randi Kreger]

The first time that I said “no” to S4’s mom, it didn’t go well. It was early in the relationship. I was actually practicing healthy boundaries. I was working a night shift and she would come by every night during my dinner break. This meant that I wasn’t eating, but spending that half hour with her. One night I told her that I’d like to eat my dinner. It didn’t go over well. The guilt was layed on pretty thick. I felt like I had done something wrong. I felt responsible for her feelings. I tried to explain to her that it wasn’t anything personal. I simply wanted to eat. It didn’t matter. I know now that she saw it as me placing dinner before her.

When you set limits with somebody, it’s always going to get worse before it gets better. It is called countermoves. Or “change back” behavior. The person is  testing you to see how serious you are, and everybody does it from the time they’re a baby until they die.

Here is my own opinion, which may or may not be the opinions of the BPD family board.

As part of the planning process, I believe in preparing for these countermoves both emotionally and practically. You have to understand that you’re doing this for the long term. The alternative is being held hostage essentially.

No matter HOW You set the limits, there’s going to be a counter move if you have the attitude that your needs and wants are as important as their needs and wants. They don’t want you to think that.

That’s like thinking that women deserve an education. Where the vote. Who knows what will happen when women have the vote? Where will it lead, you thinking that your needs and wants are as important as his?

I understand that there are people on the board to think them standing up for your own equality is just creating conflict. Yes, standing up for equality creates conflict. You can delay the conflict, distract the conflict for a while, or do all kinds of things to calm things down.

But the central conflict is still there: your needs and wants are not as important. You are the inferior and he is the superior. That cannot be delayed or distracted away. And it will in fact every part of the relationship.

You can keep up maintaining the inferior role for a certain amount of time. Years. But if you could compare the old you with the new you, you would be shocked at how different you have become.

[Randi Kreger]

I don’t have a partner with borderline or narcissistic personality disorder. But I chose someone with some of the characteristics.

He felt he knew the best way to do everything, and everything had to be done his way. And sometimes it was absolutely ridiculous. And that’s what leads me to that no.

When we got married, we got silverware I adored. My husband didn’t want to use it because he didn’t want to “wear it out.” I said he doesn’t like to have guests over. Maybe once a year. I wasn’t going to use that silver 10 times or 20 times in my whole life.

But of course he dug in because he never gives an inch because you will take a mile. So we had two sets of silverware in the drawer.  Washed them and put them in different plastic things.

Then we remodeled the kitchen. When it came time to put everything back, of course he wanted the two sets of silverware again. With the kitchen newly remodeled, I just flatly said no. “No no no no no.” And I couldn’t believe it. He just went with it. I didn’t plan the no. It just came out of me like “ouch” comes out when you hit your knee.

I should have learned a very big lesson. But I didn’t.

The other time Insaid no is when we were decluttering and decorating  two rooms upstairs. (Do you notice he has problems with remodeling?) We had four bedrooms and we were using two. Rooms three and four were junk rooms. He was a hoarder.

To keep him calm, I said we would decorate only one room at a time. That turned out to be the wrong thing to say.

I found out that what he wanted to do was take everything in room three and put it in room four instead of putting it in the basement or throwing it away. I said that made absolutely no sense to clutter up room four when we were just going to have to clean it up later.

He reminded me of his promise to only do one room at a time. I said yes, but again, I’m not going to take the clutter in one room and put it in another when I can handle it only once.

A week of no consensus. Finally, I went down in the basement to the hordes of stuff he had accumulated that he would not toss. I was not permitted to throw it away, and he would say he would throw it away but he never would.

 I had a male friend come downstairs with me and it took two days to clean out crap. Husband glared at me the whole time. This was an enormous independent move on my part. To give you some perspective, I once picked up an old ripped up movie ticket and asked him if I could throw it away. He said no.

I took the stuff from rooms three and four and put them in the basement. Room three became the library – I have about 250 to 300 books I have used in my writing – and the other became my office. Hooray.

Now the stuff from rooms three and four in the basement need to be hauled away.

I just love the image of me going up and down the stairs and my friend and I having to go out to the dump to throw all the stuff away.