The truth is that even healthy relationships don't always end the way we want

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Mod note: This thread was split from the following thread as it merited its own discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341682.0

Hi EM,  I've been gone a long time too but started to read posts again after dating for several months. I had a similar situation...everything was going well, progressing slowly, seemed healthy and then boom - he said he was better off alone and being alone was how he found comfort.  I was very confused but I noticed I didn't have any of the same feelings as the ex who brought me here to begin with.  I was a bit sad, confused, couldn't figure it out...but I had absolutely no sense I had done anything wrong...no sense of being blamed...no bad mouthing me...no overwhelming sense to be heard by him - no desire to try and convince him otherwise.  I did have a sense that something was going on in him - whether that be fear of intimacy or a bad time in his life he couldn't talk about. I also had an intuition that maybe one day I would hear from him again...whenever he resolved his issues.

I have my girlfriends telling me he's another bad guy but I don't feel it...there's a distinct difference in the back and forth with my ex (e.g. the one with the borderline traits) and the guy that was "better off alone".  I was grateful for the experience since it showed me that relationships can end without feeling the way I did with the exbpd (non diagnosed but many traits and profound lack of empathy).  I guess I figure that we all have baggage and sometimes it can be the right person but the wrong time.  I sent him a text saying it made me sad but all in all he made a rough time in my life much easier and I was grateful for that.  I'm not grateful for the time I spent with the exbpd...I regret it because he did a number on me.  I see a lot of people who went through something like this go on to read these bpd qualities into other partners...kind of like once you see these traits in one person it's much easier to see some of them in another person. But we all have some of these traits some of the time and I'm learning to go with my gut feeling (maybe that's what the psychologists mean when they say transference).  I never felt the relationship was emotionally volatile...it didn't feel like he went from one extreme to the other...it was just here one day and not the next; however, I detected a real desire on his part to make me aware it wasn't about me.  I hope to hear from him again but I don't feel bitter in the meantime.  I feel like I had a normal relationship with someone who had issues (as we all do) and maybe he couldn't cope with the emotions and intimacy that was developing and he recognized that.  Perhaps that's the difference...it felt like he recognized his issues and didn't want to drag me through the mud while he worked through them.  In my mind - that's a human being who has the sense to withdraw when they can't stay in the game.  I actually respect him more for just cutting it off.  I would have liked to talk it through but I feel like he wasn't able to do that at the time - for whatever reason. I try to be careful not to pathologize the problems/issues we all have from time to time.  I don't like that he ended things without much of a discussion...but on the other hand - it's probably hard for a person struggling with intimacy to talk about those fears.  I just know something was profoundly different this time around because I felt no need to defend myself or argue him out of it...it was easy to accept, mourn the loss and move on.  Guess the truth is that even healthy relationships don't always end the way we want but it was a HUGE relief to realize I wouldn't end up feeling like I did with the exbpd everytime something didn't go my way.  It kind of validated that what happened before was not the way it should go...and also showed me that I have the capacity to accept other peoples feelings without going down the rabbit hole that brought me here to begin with.  For whatever reason I didn't feel rejected this time around...that was a big thing for me - kind of put the debacle of the last r/s into perspective.

[Bhs]

Mod note: This thread was split from the following thread as it merited its own discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341682.0

Hi EM,  I've been gone a long time too but started to read posts again after dating for several months. I had a similar situation...everything was going well, progressing slowly, seemed healthy and then boom - he said he was better off alone and being alone was how he found comfort.  I was very confused but I noticed I didn't have any of the same feelings as the ex who brought me here to begin with.  I was a bit sad, confused, couldn't figure it out...but I had absolutely no sense I had done anything wrong...no sense of being blamed...no bad mouthing me...no overwhelming sense to be heard by him - no desire to try and convince him otherwise.  I did have a sense that something was going on in him - whether that be fear of intimacy or a bad time in his life he couldn't talk about. I also had an intuition that maybe one day I would hear from him again...whenever he resolved his issues.

I have my girlfriends telling me he's another bad guy but I don't feel it...there's a distinct difference in the back and forth with my ex (e.g. the one with the borderline traits) and the guy that was "better off alone".  I was grateful for the experience since it showed me that relationships can end without feeling the way I did with the exbpd (non diagnosed but many traits and profound lack of empathy).  I guess I figure that we all have baggage and sometimes it can be the right person but the wrong time.  I sent him a text saying it made me sad but all in all he made a rough time in my life much easier and I was grateful for that.  I'm not grateful for the time I spent with the exbpd...I regret it because he did a number on me.  I see a lot of people who went through something like this go on to read these bpd qualities into other partners...kind of like once you see these traits in one person it's much easier to see some of them in another person. But we all have some of these traits some of the time and I'm learning to go with my gut feeling (maybe that's what the psychologists mean when they say transference).  I never felt the relationship was emotionally volatile...it didn't feel like he went from one extreme to the other...it was just here one day and not the next; however, I detected a real desire on his part to make me aware it wasn't about me.  I hope to hear from him again but I don't feel bitter in the meantime.  I feel like I had a normal relationship with someone who had issues (as we all do) and maybe he couldn't cope with the emotions and intimacy that was developing and he recognized that.  Perhaps that's the difference...it felt like he recognized his issues and didn't want to drag me through the mud while he worked through them.  In my mind - that's a human being who has the sense to withdraw when they can't stay in the game.  I actually respect him more for just cutting it off.  I would have liked to talk it through but I feel like he wasn't able to do that at the time - for whatever reason. I try to be careful not to pathologize the problems/issues we all have from time to time.  I don't like that he ended things without much of a discussion...but on the other hand - it's probably hard for a person struggling with intimacy to talk about those fears.  I just know something was profoundly different this time around because I felt no need to defend myself or argue him out of it...it was easy to accept, mourn the loss and move on.  Guess the truth is that even healthy relationships don't always end the way we want but it was a HUGE relief to realize I wouldn't end up feeling like I did with the exbpd everytime something didn't go my way.  It kind of validated that what happened before was not the way it should go...and also showed me that I have the capacity to accept other peoples feelings without going down the rabbit hole that brought me here to begin with.  For whatever reason I didn't feel rejected this time around...that was a big thing for me - kind of put the debacle of the last r/s into perspective.

[SinisterComplex]

So BHS...I am going to ask for some more background here on his personality. Does he have a lot of interests? Is he highly intellectual?

Now the reason I am asking...provide some of those details perhaps I can provide you more insight. I don't think there is a fear of intimacy or a disorder at play here. Obviously everyone has their own issues, but I have an inkling I may understand this man, but in order to delve into it I need some details. Tell me about him. Provided you want to that is and if you feel comfortable doing so.

Cheers!

-SC-

[enlighten me]

Hi BHS

I could have written that word for word. My ex is an incredible person and I am glad we had the time together. I hope she can resolve her issues and be happy.

Sinister complex. My ex is a high achiever. Top grades through school, multiple degrees, throws herself into everything. Several bad relationships that I wont go in to. Un nurtured by her parents and raised by grandparents. A poster child for fear of intimacy. Shes still trying to gain her parents attention and love.

I do feel if she wasn't emotionally mature enough to break it off due to her fears I would in months/ years be writing about another borderline ex. There wasn't the push pull. She never reached a level of fear where she was abusive.

[Bhs]

SC...I would love to hear your thoughts.  Probably more info than you need but here goes...

He's an ER doctor...high stress job. Intellectual - not in the sense that he reads Plato but a deep thinker and very self-reflective.  A bit OCD which he acknowledges - very focused.  He said he frequently fell into work/sleep/depression cycle given the sensory overload of his job. Not many hobbies - played softball with work buddies. When we were together there was no texting friends or checking the phone except for one time his friend called having problems with his child and he asked if I minded if he called him back...and one call to him mother.  I thought it was nice that he talked about things like that with his male friends. We didn't do normal "dates" meaning going out on the town- we hung out at home (his and mine equally) - made dinner - had drinks and talked - rarely watched TV. This worked for me because I travel and he's in the ER.  It was quiet time. Incredible sexual chemistry but he waited several dates before making any moves although he wouldn't have needed to. It was very easy to be honest with him.  He had gone through 3 years of therapy after his divorce (his father who died a few years ago was a psychiatrist)...he seemed to have reflected on his life. We are both in our early 50's.  He said he would have been a mechanic or something simple if not for his father and overall I was struck by the fact that he was a grateful and very humble person. He talked about how most patients just need someone to listen...about feeling awful when a young patient of his died unexpectedly. We talked about the process of therapy and how much it helped us.  I was back "in treatment" at the time so we would chat about those types of things.

I met him in late January 2019 on a dating app.  We met for coffee and were going to meet again but I was traveling and he got called for a weekend shift.  I was still recovering from the exbpd so I just said - cool, I'll take a raincheck- text me when you are free.  I didn't follow up again - just let it go.  Exbpd came back shortly after for the last rinse and repeat.  It totally ended with exbpd in a few weeks without seeing him again and soon after (in March) I heard from ER guy again (several weeks after raincheck text). We texted back and forth but never met up - I was traveling a lot and he worked 10-12 hours nights and weekends.  He asked me if I wanted to meet him in Miami for a weekend but I had a vacation to Miami scheduled the following week with a girlfriend and said no.  Once our vacations were finished I texted him to let him know I was home but didn't hear back for a couple of weeks.  When he surfaced I called him out on disappearing and he replied he gets in a work/sleep/depression cycle sometimes but was coming out of it. He didn't shy away from admitting it - we weren't sleeping together so it didn't really bother me. He came over for dinner - obvious chemistry but he didn't pursue other than to talk.  He asked me if I thought he was weird for randomly asking me to go to Miami.  I said I thought he was lonely - he seemed like he was a loner - and I understood because I could be like that. Told him it didn't seem all that weird at this age...at least it not to me.  I told him I just assumed he wasn't in a place to date when we first met...I spoke about the events of my life and conveyed that my attitude was that sometimes the timing isn't great.

From there we started seeing each other every 10 days or so when schedules would permit.  Much of it at his house as mine was being remodeled.  I would stay over and we would spend the morning together but not all day.  I was struck by the emotional content of our conversations.  He talked about his father that died - showed me the video he made for his funeral...talked about his divorce and how he cheated and felt like he was a coward but that he hoped his ex-wife would come to realize that the divorce was in her best interests too.  Talked about the vacations he took alone.  He explained that he married out of med school - he fell in love with her son whom he adopted but he always had doubts about the relationship.  He had a son with her (in addition to adopted son) who stopped speaking with him after the divorce and didn't go to his father's funeral which really hurt him.  He was actively trying to repair the relationship with the son and felt positive about it.  He expressed no ill will towards his ex or his son. He said his adopted son understood why he couldn't stay married.  There were many personal talks.  I told him about my family and my brother who was alone but a great guy...he mentioned that sometimes people just get used to being alone and it's a hard habit to break.  He had many good observations about me.  The only semi-critical thing he ever said to me was that I didn't tell him what I needed...I thought about that and it occurred to me that all I wanted was just to see where things went.  I wasn't after an outcome but I didn't convey that to him.  I just told him the comment was thought provoking and I was reflecting on it. He sent me a link to a song - "Hello Sunshine Won't You Stay".  About a guy who has a thing for skies of gray but wants the sunshine to stay.  Bruce Springsteen...you can google the lyrics but they seemed telling. We texted more than talking...I'm on the phone all day for work and he's in the ER.  As backdrop I specialize in physician pay and production so we also talked about professional issues and I have a good understanding of how doctors live so his schedule wasn't an issue.

After about a month it seemed he was increasing the "intimacy".  By way of example, I would leave on a Saturday and he would call later in the day saying...I miss you - I know I just saw you last night but what if I come over after work for a drink.  We never had a define the relationship talk.  I just didn't feel the need to...I liked him irrespective of what the outcome would be - and after the exbpd I was consciously open to letting things develop rather than trying to fill the place of a boyfriend. He made a bet with me one night - he was going to play an 10 second excerpt of something and he said he would pay me $10K if I guessed it.  I guessed that it was the recording Earth made - about Earth - that was sent out on Voyager.  He was amazed that I got it right and we laughed.  He seemed excited that I knew the answer...like it was a point of bonding that we were two nerds.  He told me I was the real deal in terms of being intelligent...we had a great conversation about astronomy and God after that. He told me how good it was to have someone he could really talk to who was his age. He promised me he would by me a pair of shoes I had been looking at - these were $900 shoes (I buy good shoes). So...time went on and I was dealing with a lot of deaths in my family which we discussed. Since the breakup with the exbpd my cousin died (45 yrs old - opioid overdose), her mother who was my last aunt, and finally a former boyfriend (not the exbpd) who I had remained friends with and who was suffering from cancer.  I was very close to the former boyfriends entire family (sister, niece, etc.) and his new partner...he was also a doctor and I traveled down there to stay with the family a few times while dating the ER guy to help him end of life issues like life-insurance, benefits and his employment contract - things I know given my area of expertise.  The guy I was dating was very understanding and we talked about how little time my friend had left and how best to help him. The ER guy was always tuned in to me and empathic...he would text to make sure I was okay emotionally and as time went on he would give me a big hug and kiss when I walked in.  Things definitely seemed to be moving in a relationship direction.

The last time I saw him he called and asked to see me...we had tentative plans for later in the week but he said he missed me. I told him I had work to do that night and he said...that's okay - I just want to be around you.  He showed up with the shoes which really surprised me given that I assumed he was joking and they were so expensive.  He brought a bag and stayed the night but we both had to get up at 4:30 am - him for work and me to catch a plane.  He made a comment about how he didn't want to invade my space.  I told him not to worry but I sensed it was hard for him to settle in.  That night he was very expressive.  We were in bed and he told me he thought about me as soon as I walked out the door.  There was a sense that he had taken it from sex to more of the making love experience if that makes sense.  I was supposed to see him later that week but he had a board exam to take so we rescheduled. He said he was getting into another bad stretch of work so I told him to connect with me on the other side and not to worry about it. Before I could see him again my ex-boyfriend who had cancer died.  I let ER guy know and he sent me a text saying he wished he could be here with me.  I had more travel after that and then went down for several days to help with the funeral.  I didn't text much with him during that time because he was back on a demanding schedule and I was out of town helping with my friends funeral.  He sent me a text one night telling me what a kind and loving person I was.  I asked later how he was doing as I was concerned he hadn't reached out to see me and he responded with a text saying he was okay but he was better off alone and that is how he found his comfort.

He described himself as socially awkward meaning he wasn't one for going out to a bar or hanging out trying to pick up dates. He said he dated a few times since his divorce but never clicked with anyone. He was very thoughtful and tuned in to my emotions.  I was taken aback by his text but for whatever reason not mad.  He was genuinely a good guy and I just felt like something was up with him. I told him I was disappointed and a little confused but grateful for the time we had spent together and if he figured out his issues I would love to hear from him again.  I texted him a few weeks later just saying - don't want to interrupt your alone time but wanted you to know I was thinking of you and hoping things were okay.  He didn't respond.  Thoughts?

[enlighten me]

Hi BHS

So many similarities. Especially the break up while spending time away. I had to go abroad for 4 weeks. The first week was fine but then her emojis dried up on our messages (sound silly I know). We still messaged a lot and always told each other we loved them. I came home the middle weekend and was ill. I left my phone upstairs and didn't have the energy to get it. The next day I messaged her and she said we should just be friends.

I feel the going away triggered abandonment fears. My not messaging her played to her fears of not being important enough to even talk to.

[Bhs]

One other thing...he texted me the link to this song at one point.  Seems telling in retrospect.

Hello Sunshine
Bruce Springsteen

Had enough of heartbreak and pain
I had a little sweet spot for the rain
For the rain and skies of grey
Hello sunshine, won't you stay?
You know I always liked my walking shoes
But you can get a little too fond of the blues
You walk too far, you walk away
Hello sunshine, won't you stay?
You know I always loved a lonely town
Those empty streets, no one around
You fall in love with lonely, you end up that way
Hello sunshine, won't you stay?
You know I always liked that empty road
No place to be and miles to go
But miles to go is miles away
Hello sunshine, won't you stay?
And miles to go is miles away
Hello sunshine, won't you stay?
Hello sunshine, won't you stay?
Hello sunshine

[Bhs]

EM...
Do you ever think about reaching out to her again?  I don't know if my guy felt abandoned...I didn't get the sense that he had those issues. I feel kind of like he got past his point of comfort and didn't know if he could keep it up. Given my guys background I told him my mom was diagnosed with BPD...he was very in-tune with that so I was surprised that he kind of "abandoned me". Besides which...who buys a girl a $900 pair of shoes before saying he's better off alone?  I honestly don't get that at all. It was a joke...he had no reason to do that. Have you maintained a friendship with your girl?

[enlighten me]

Hi BHS

Sounds like he's telling you he doesnt know how to change but wants to. With my ex this is a lifelong way of living and even though lonely it feels safe.

Did he ever talk about his childhood? He seems intelligent and driven. My ex is the same. Looking back though its clear she spent her life trying to get her parents attention which was lacking. When her sister came along she was pushed out and watched her sister get everything. There was/ is a lot of resentment for her parents but she is still trying to prove herself worthy to them.

[enlighten me]

Hi Bhs

I do think about contacting her. All the time if Im honest. Not in the obsessive post BPD way if you know what I mean. More in a way of just wanting to hold her and let her know how amazing she is and that she can overcome her fears and that if she ever wants to talk Im here.

As for why he bought the shoes I would say because he wanted to and wanted to make you happy. Why did he run? Probably because with you away he had time for his demons to pick apart everything and remind him of how scary it is to rely on someone else and how every leaves him so he shouldn't get too involved as it will hurt more when you go.

[Bhs]

He said his dad had some demons...gambling - didn't run his business well.  His dad was a first generation immigrant so although his father was a physician it sounded more like he had the experience of a blue collar kid - like myself.  I wonder about him feeling abandoned...he was the one who left his wife after 25 years of marriage? I got the sense he had some guilt and/or felt bad for hurting her but couldn't stay. I found out over time that she really turned into a religious person - he said he had it all from the outside but he just couldn't listen to her stuff all the time - he made it sound like she was a little vacuous and dramatic but underneath it all she was a good person.  I know he said his father pushed him a lot and he has 2 brothers - all pretty successful and well educated.  But he didn't seem to have obvious resentment for his parents. I'm wondering why my being gone would trigger something in a person who drops out for a few weeks at a time.  Maybe testing to see if someone would stay?  He sure didn't seem like a game player and I don't think he is.  Don't know...still sense I may hear from him someday.  He has demonstrated he's a person who works on himself and I can only hope he continues.  It felt special - I mean the connection. I was surprised he couldn't just have a talk with me...again - my sense is that he felt vulnerable and didn't know how to recover once he opened up.  Regardless...completely different experience than the BPD in terms of how I felt...sounds like the same for you.

[enlighten me]

Maybe his dad wasn't there for them. With two successful siblings it sounds like they were pushed to succeed maybe even compete with each other. Being an immigrant his father probably had to work hard to achieve what they had. Maybe long hours with little time left for them.

His wife turning religious would upset the balance in his life. Maybe he was scared of how she had changed.

Maybe the fact that he could reconnect any time when you were there felt safe but you not being there took away that option. I dont think he was a game player.

Its only some thoughts and I could be miles off mark.

As for if im still in touch. No. Im ghosted. I can understand that. She doesnt want to face things at the moment. My son works for her one night a week and Im never mentioned. She did say that she didn't want to use him as her therapist which is good of her.

[Bhs]

I'm ghosted too in that he hasn't replied.  I feel the same way...he just can't deal with whatever it is.  My sense is that he loved his wife's child more than his wife - and as with many men I know - it was the right time in his life to be married so he did it.  My intuition is telling me he didn't want to disappoint me if he got close but couldn't go the whole way.  I felt he knew he was leading this down a path but with some time he realized he may not be ready to go there.  I guess he couldn't have that talk.  I was out of touch for a little bit but if he would have reached out I would have responded.  After the last night I spent with him I actually put more effort into telling him I wanted to see him...when he spoke about getting back into a bad schedule I said - ok - don't want to unduly pressure you - looking forward to spending time with you when you wrap it up.  I don't think he was competitive at all with his brothers...they were close.  Looking forward to SC's comments.

[enlighten me]

Its strange but I feel I understand my exs behaviour but cant truly verbalise it.

Even being ghosted it doesnt seem as confusing as my uBPD exs as theres no contradictions.

I also feel that one day she may return when she feels comfortable to. I did consider messaging her to leave the door open but feel it would cause her pain.

[Bhs]

Yeah...I feel the same way. Clarity is a beautiful thing.  Not at all like the ex-bpd relationship.

[SinisterComplex]

SC...I would love to hear your thoughts.  Probably more info than you need but here goes...

Honestly, I asked for it so no apology necessary. The more info you provide the better actually. Well my suspicions were kind of dead on actually. He is definitely an introverted type (the exact MBTI type I am not 100% on though...if I had to wager a guess INFP and perhaps INFJ...I'm pretty certain that he is an INF though). I think there is definitely a struggle going on for him. He isn't comfortable with expressing his emotions and perhaps may not know exactly how to verbalize his thoughts and emotions. Speaking from a personal perspective I think he may be more comfortable with written word (texting) as well simply because it is easier to get his thoughts across. He gets to be methodical. Being in person its a bit different so he may run into what I call the clusterf*ck wall of thinking. So many thoughts at once and no matter what conclusion you come to in your mind you are stuck and then frustration sets in and you shut down (this is an introvert thing) and many people will not notice in person.

"he mentioned that sometimes people just get used to being alone and it's a hard habit to break."- This was a very telling thing. I can admit that yes it is very hard. Introverted types naturally have more of a draw to wanting to be alone by choice. There is solace and comfort in the silence to be left alone with your thoughts. Extroverted types truly have a hard time understanding introverts when we pull away. Introverts are notorious for having a million things going on in their head at one time (introspection, self analysis OCD style) so it is important for extroverts to not take it personally. Would you qualify yourself as extrovert or introvert?

"The only semi-critical thing he ever said to me was that I didn't tell him what I needed." - Another important point of reference...Introverts will typically want you to be out with it before we reveal anything back in return. If your needs are communicated you will get what you want pretty much. Typically we may know what you want, but we need to have it communicated to us. Additionally...I will loop around back this point in a later response further down ;-)

"I told him I just assumed he wasn't in a place to date when we first met...I spoke about the events of my life and conveyed that my attitude was that sometimes the timing isn't great.." - Believe it or not this is something that could have been a sticking point in his mind. From what I gather...this man is empathic, introverted, and highly intellectual/intuitive so he is probably a lot more sensitive than most. He may have been offended, but because he liked you he tried to continue on even though the thought was still in the back of his mind. Its a mental process I refer to as cataloging...things keep piling up, but you continue to move forward because you want to figure out your feelings and you are conflicted and perplexed (those thoughts and feelings are never outwardly expressed though).

I do not see a disorder here though. He thinks the world of you, but also he may see too many conflicts that make things incompatible in his mind. He is certainly non-confrontational and he still hasn't released his guilt from cheating on his wife. The fact he referred to himself as a coward is a much bigger deal than it appears at first glance. All of his actions are telling me he hasn't forgiven himself and he feels hasn't served his penance for his misdeed. Looping back around...he felt he failed his wife because he cheated, but as to why he cheated...I can only make an educated guess that it had something to do with her communication and her not communicating her needs. As it pertains to you...I am pretty sure in his mind he is quite conflicted and because of that its just easier for him to be left alone. It isn't fair or right. You probably made him feel some deep feelings he was uncomfortable with because he feels or thinks he doesn't deserve to have those feelings. He doesn't deserve someone wonderful like you because of what he did to his wife (this would be correlated with the INFP/INFJ type I think he may be).

Now I could be completely off base here. Just offering some insight and maybe it provides some food for thought. However, I am always willing to take the risk of making an a$$ of myself if there are some positives that can be derived from it. ;-)

Well hopefully I have provided some useful input for you.

Cheers and all the best!

-SC-

[Bhs]

SC...I love it! I feel like I owe you a consulting fee. I think you are right on with much of it except for what you said in terms of his being offended by my speaking about the events of my life and conveying to him that my attitude was that sometimes the timing isn't great.

I think our conversation actually made him feel very normal. Maybe I didn't convey it correctly.  Here's more detail and you can react:

He started the discussion by asking...did you think I was a complete a$$hole for randomly asking you to meet me in Miami...he looked uncomfortable - like I would think he was weird.  I replied that it didn't seem weird - and maybe that made me weird but put us on the same page. I said I figured it took him awhile to text me again after January because he must not have been in a place to date or he was busy or whatever. I told him I had hoped to hear from him but realized people have sh&t - work, personal, kids...sometime its just bad timing - happened to me at points in my life too so I didn't take it personally and I knew sometimes it wasn't about the person it was about timing.  I want on to say that when he reached out in March I was happy and figured something had changed. I didn't ask him to explain but I could see him nod a bit like I had hit the nail on the head.

I pointed out we are both professionals...I didn't think he was an axe murderer or someone out to get laid so an invite to meet him Miami didn't seem weird.  I said I figured he was just lonely and wanted some company. I could relate and I thought it was endearing.  Since I travel so much I understand how it's nice to have company - just to lay around with and I chose not to be offended by an invite to Miami for a weekend. He seemed worried that he was drunk texting me and it offended me.  I was like - please dude, we live in a high stress world...I was glad to see it. It's funny and it's real. I told him that most people I know like us - ones who work all the time - high stress - they act the same way. I told him it made me feel comfortable because it was quirky behavior and that's cool because I'm quirky too. IDK...he actually seemed visibly relieved. 

We talked about how hard it is to make friends at this age. We talked about being introverted.  I told him I was very introverted too - except I have a knack for talking to random strangers - on planes, in coffee shops.  Other than that I have few close friends, I like to spend a lot of time alone...I am not one to go out to clubs either...I take vacations alone and I need a lot of time to be alone with my thoughts.  I am definitely an introvert and I've completed some personality evaluations for jobs and they confirm this.  I don't think he has any disorder...guess that was my point originally.  I can't say what it was but it didn't feel like the ex-bpd. I do feel like he feels guilty and may be not partaking of things he finds pleasurable.  I know there was a lot of attraction...it was fun...we were friends and lovers.  It just seemed too much for him.  I agree on the penance issue...there is something I picked up on in terms of him not feeling worthy.

From what he told me his wife was much more materialistic than him...I think she communicated but he found what satisfied her shallow.  Hope that makes sense.  We both had older houses...we hated the clear cut subdivisions and McMansions but I think she was really into that stuff.  I felt like he was conflicted because there was nothing "bad" about her but he felt isolated with someone he couldn't talk to.  We talked a lot...books, people, ideas.  I know he valued that. 

I was getting what I wanted...he was meeting my needs. I felt he was unsure of how the r/s would progress so I let him take the lead. I think with the few texts I have sent him since his text he knows I liked him and valued his company...he knows I welcome another opportunity to see him. 

This was fun and insightful.  What you say syncs with my gut feeling.  I still think I'll hear from him.  My strategy is to check in on him with a nice text from every 6 weeks. "Hi...thinking of you...hope your doing well". 

I feel it's harder for him not to respond than to respond.  In some strange way I find it amusing...because I just have this sense that he's sitting back going - do I give in - do I not give in. The bottom line is we had fun and we laughed a lot and it felt like we understood each other. I'm sure I'm projecting all sorts of things on to him but I sensed he felt he lost some part of himself in his marriage and he's testing his ability to maintain some sense of autonomy...I'm gonna pull back and take the space I need and see how she responds. Someone said it sounded like he scared himself and as a result he put his walls up again.

Thanks SC...look forward to further observations.

[SinisterComplex]

I could most certainly be wrong about the timing isn't great thing. I just have a hunch there was more there to it. But I digress...

Him and his wife were ultimately incompatible. However, being non-confrontational he didn't know how to end the marriage properly. Just something I can see there.

I do agree with your strategy...probably the best way to go about it.

You are 100% spot on with the fact it is harder for him to not respond than it is to respond. He wants to...I am sure of it. Yes, he did scare himself. You shocked him. You surprised him. He wasn't prepared to feel the way he feels about you. Make no mistake about that. He definitely has put his walls up again, but oddly not because he is afraid of getting hurt or losing himself, but because he is afraid of hurting you (goes back to how he feels about his marriage). Essentially he has a huge tug of war going on inside himself for sure. I don't think this symphony has reached it's crescendo just yet though.

Cheers and best wishes to you Bhs!

-SC-

[Forgiveness]

Wow, you're a good writer and I enjoyed reading your story. Give him space... I think he will come back.

[Bhs]

Glad you enjoyed the story...I really appreciate everyone's input analysis.

SC - could be that there was more backstory to his waiting so long to call back after the cancelled first date than he let on...wondering if you're picking up on something he was feeling - not so much about me but about whatever was responsible for his delay.

What made this ending different for me (as compared to ex-bpd) was this gut-sense that someone was trying to AVOID hurting me.  It was the opposite of how I felt when the BPD relationship ended...he seemed to have intent to harm emotionally.

People talk a lot about the intentions of their partners throughout this board...grappling with whether the ex-BPD partners intended to hurt us. I really struggle with that...it makes the world an unsafe place on some level.  This ending was a valuable lesson I'm grateful to have because I strongly "felt" he had no intent to harm me. It's the juxtaposition of the two experiences that is telling and healing.  I don't have to be afraid of someone walking away...I have to make sure I pick healthier people.  It's not the ending that causes all this pain - it was the person on the other side of the r/s.

I watch YouTube video's of Don Carveth - sociology professor.  He did one on loss and mourning that spoke to me.  He talked about how r/s that are essentially loving are easier to move on from than those predominated by hate (he does make the point that all deep relationships have components of both but some tip towards hateful/hurtful).  This experience drove that concept home.  It's a breath of fresh air to realize...not everyone who can't be with you will try to destroy you or make you into a bad person to avoid feeling loss and conflict. 

[SinisterComplex]

Oh I am pretty certain he was overwhelmed with feelings and couldn't quite process them. Its typical introverted behavior. There truly may have been far too much going on external stimuli wise and as such you were added into that equation and then its like overload happened and as a result it activated uncomfortable emotions for him.

BPD endings vs normal endings are actually pretty easy to tell apart. However, I have to clarify that people with BPD are still individuals as well so I cannot go with the all approach. What I will say though is that endings with BPD individuals tend to always be messy and there is usually a lot of unfinished business and the healthy non is left stunned and devastated because they are never granted true closure.

Even in normal endings there will be some unfinished business, but typically it won't have that feeling like you were disposed of like trash. Breakups suck, but normal healthy adults usually have a final confrontation. With BPD's rarely are you ever granted that. Even when there is some kind of breakup good bye it is lifeless and half-hearted. No empathy. No kindness. No respect and the reason for that in many cases...it is narcissistic in nature and they already have a replacement lined up and have a new supply.

Disordered individuals typically do not necessarily start out with intent to hurt you, but some do. Usually you will do something that in a healthy relationship won't be a big deal. We all make mistakes, but you'll talk it out and be forgiven and then move on and forget it happened and continue the relationship without a hitch. That is healthy confrontation. Disordered confrontation is when you do something innocuous and then they never tell you about it and because of that one incident you are now their mortal enemy and they want to hurt you and displace their emotions so you can feel how they felt on the inside at that one specific time. Messed up for sure, but it is par for the course.

Anyway, I do wish you the best moving forward. I think there is a happy ending for you one way or the other.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[Bhs]

I agree that every person is different. I was specifically speaking about my r/s and exBPD.  I'm not sure lack of "closure" had much to do with my devastation. What is closure? I tend to believe we gain closure over time - as we do with deaths, changes in our life, etc. IMO, closure is really about acceptance and no one can give us acceptance - that comes from within.  My devastation was prompted more by being confronted with two seemingly different people and not understanding how to integrate my own vision and understanding of that person.

My breakup with exBPD had nothing to do with being replaced or new "supply".  No offense, but I kind of "read" those words as the new internet vernacular folks use to describe painful breakups and behaviors.  Problem is that they are simple and reduce a very nuanced and complex situation to catch-phrases.

I think my T would disagree that disordered individuals don't have intent to hurt you. With that said, intent doesn't really matter that much in the end. Let's say you get in a car when you're drunk - you probably don't intend to hit someone and kill them but you do...does it matter if you didn't have intent? Also, when a partner continues to behave in hurtful ways after that behavior has been identified as problematic, can you say they lack intent?  Not in my mind. Once it happens and you point it out...they know. Of course there are degrees but slight degrees don't seem to be the real issue with BPD.  It's a pervasive pattern of instability and in many instances, not giving damn about other people.

Most of us see a pattern in these behaviors. The relationship the BPD had with us was familiar to others they have had.  IMO, "healthy" and "unhealthy" people are distinguished from each other (in-part) based on how they react to the knowledge that they hurt someone (intentional or unintentional). Healthy folks feel bad enough about the impact of  their behavior on others that they work to make amends and refrain from the behavior in the future - they learn from experience because they want to.

Sometimes the behavior of healthy folks hurts others, and sometimes that is a legitimate choice BUT healthy folks usually go through a process of consideration in terms of reflecting on how their actions impact others. Based only on my experience, that was not true of my exBPD. Moreover, the pain of that relationship was not just the breakup...it was the continued statements that he "saw" and understood my feelings - the promises to change - the back and forth with no real behavioral changes or moral conflict for behaving that way - essentially, emotional betrayal.  Of course, I have to deal with why I stayed so long expecting he would change...I should have seen the writing on the wall or had more boundaries to begin with.  Both EM and I expressed the sense that some breakups happen without real closure BUT they still don't leave you feeling beat up, confused, trying to figure out what happened.  They don't go from loving you to hating you in a matter of hours or days - essentially, acting like children who want what they want when they want it.

Happy Holidays SC!

[SinisterComplex]

Now, this is fulfilling conversation. ;-). It doesn't matter who is right or wrong, or any of it. I truly just enjoy the flow of ideas and thoughts here. So I appreciate that and it is also healthy.

I kind of generalized and didn't mean to direct at your personal experience. Kind of what I was going for albeit perhaps in a clumsy way. LOL. It happens.

Trust me, I take no offense...I don't get offended easily so none taken. I appreciate your willingness to be open and engage in deep thought here more than anything else...you can always gain a lot of insight from others. Sometimes you may just have to stir the pot a little bit...I can neither confirm nor deny my intent on that. Now hopefully you do not take offense to me. :-D

I won't disagree with your views either. You make a lot of valid points. The argument of intent ultimately is something that is moot...so I agree. As for the term of supply...mmm I can't just denounce it simply because it is such a prevailing behavior in those with narcissistic traits. However, to move on from that...

"It's a pervasive pattern of instability and in many instances, not giving damn about other people." - This is where I would say there is most likely a comorbidity at play. 

"Based only on my experience, that was not true of my exBPD. Moreover, the pain of that relationship was not just the breakup...it was the continued statements that he "saw" and understood my feelings - the promises to change - the back and forth with no real behavioral changes or moral conflict for behaving that way - essentially, emotional betrayal." -

Yes, the promises to change and the sad thing is...it is always hollow. There is never any merit to it. The promises to change are always about them feeding their ego and never about treating you better. You are essentially treated as an object if you show you actually care like a normal human being. This is why I do preach the point of that it is better to be respected than liked. Especially with a disordered individual...you have to be willing to pull the rug out from underneath them and tell them to go kick rocks showing them you will not be trifled with. Your happiness and self-preservation trump all.

"Both EM and I expressed the sense that some breakups happen without real closure BUT they still don't leave you feeling beat up, confused, trying to figure out what happened.  They don't go from loving you to hating you in a matter of hours or days - essentially, acting like children who want what they want when they want it." -

I agree. Plenty of real breakups happen without real closure, but I would offer up in those scenarios is that you kind of know the breakup was just a matter of time anyway. There isn't any devastation to it and there is no real raw anger to it because its more of hey sh*t happens in life and you just move on. When dealing with disordered people though...you know because it feels like they hacked your system mainframe and screwed with your emotional and mental makeup and you have this feeling you can't shake of am I feeling my feelings or did they implant their feelings into me? 

Lastly, what I see from you...I think with your experiences you have and are becoming more evolved which is typically one of the hardest things for people who have been subjected to disordered relationships. So I tip my hat to you and say congrats for being a survivor and making progress.

I sincerely wish you happy holidays as well and thank you again for being so candid and pushing forward an interesting discussion. You will have to keep me posted on your fascinating character, but then again that if you so choose to do so.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[enlighten me]

Hi SC

You raise a lot of valid points but Im going to have to disagree with one of them. You said that we probably knew the relationship wasn't going to work so it was less traumatic ( to paraphrase you). My recent break up was by no means as traumatic as either of my uBPD exs but it was still a shock. She was an almost perfect match for me. We shared the same views on pretty much everything. We had the same sense of humour. Both gamers. dont really drink. Keen on the environment. same political and religious views etc etc.

There was no mirroring going on. We were pretty much the same person just opposite sexs. Yes she has issues. She has had to deal with a lot in life and these things leave scars. The difference for me is there was no confusion. I didn't have the push pull. I wasn't sat miserable when painted black then raised up by being painted white. There was no emotional roller coaster. My mind wasn't all over the place and trying to piece itself together.

In a way it was more like someone dying. It was clear cut. There was no doubt in what was happening. When someone dies your sad/ heartbroken but you can get over it. It may not be fair. It may have been sudden but you can heal over time. You have no choice but to accept it. With my uBPD exs there was always the thought they would be back or that it was just another argument and we would pick up again and repeat the cycle again. There was no definitive ending even though it was over.

With regards to relationships we have to realise that it boils down to peoples perspectives. We may not perceive something we do as wrong but others will. We may think what we said was perfectly reasonable but others may not. A healthy person will see being more open and intimate as a good thing for a relationship. A person with intimacy issues will see it as a threat.  The only way to overcome this is by communication. Without communication you cant build trust without trust you cant work on issues. Unresolved issues will eventually cause resentment and eventually lead to a break up or living in a hostile/ toxic environment.

[SinisterComplex]

Hey enlighten me,

Thanks for the response and always feel free to challenge me and call me out...I welcome it. By all means...my goal is usually to challenge people to share their thoughts. I could actually care less about the point of being right or wrong since everyone has to do what is in their own personal best interest. So if you will...I do not mind being the villain if necessary to spark growth and create dialogues. In truth I do not mind being the villain or catalyst because my intent is always pure and wanting to help others. Now in the process I may make mistakes because I am flawed the same as everyone, but as long as I am stirring the pot and getting people to open up and making a difference well then it is worth it. Even better...I learn and grow on the fly as well. Again, I may not even be liked sometimes, but because I always aim to be honest and help others I at least earn their respect ;-)

I personally truly enjoy this kind of open discussion.

As for my point about relationships...perhaps I should have been more direct and clarified that I was more so referring to normal relationships. If you have a lot of dating experience it is one of those things you pick up over time and you kind of know at some point it is going to end, but you are just living in the now and enjoying the ride. All good things must come to an end as they say, but when those relationships come to an end while it still hurts there is more of a yeah this sucks, but its life and things can end amicably because the two people involved genuinely care about one another. With a disordered relationship...the term amicably...yeah throw that out the window.

 "The only way to overcome this is by communication. Without communication you cant build trust without trust you cant work on issues. Unresolved issues will eventually cause resentment and eventually lead to a break up or living in a hostile/ toxic environment." -

I truly cannot add too much else here because this is a perfect explanation and one I completely and totally agree with. Trust is everything...it is the backbone/glue of any human relationship...professionally, friendships, or romantically.

Thanks again for an enlightening response...truly no pun intended. :-D LOL

Cheers and best wishes and if I don't hear from you beforehand...Have a happy and safe Holidays.

-SC-

[enlighten me]

Hi SC

I no way cast you as a villain here. I have my own experiences and my own opinions. If peoples opinion differ then its probably down to a different set of experiences.

I went through the whole rollercoaster on this site. Starting from a point of pain and even hate. I then went to trying to understand and seeing if I could rescue a relationship in some way.

Now I have my own set of beliefs. I believe everyone is born differently. There is no such thing as a normal brain as everyone's brain like their fingerprints is different. These differences are what makes us who we are. Some people may be born disordered or are predisposed to developing one. As personalities are on a spectrum then the levels of behaviour will vary. People could go their whole life without hitting the trigger that would lead to disordered behaviours.

We spend too much time judging ourselves by how we perceive others. We apply pressure and stress to our lives. I have hit a point in my life where Im pretty content. I wouldn't say Im happy (being constantly happy would become annoying IMO). I am comfortable in my skin though. You can only get there through self reflection. I realise I may have a touch of aspergers which explained a lot. I also have some intimacy issues (probably from an overbearing mum). That said knowing what I know I can deal with it. A little bit of selfishness doesnt go amiss either. Saying no when you dont want to do something for someone isn't a bad thing. I used to be the go to guy for favours and ended up resentful. Now people only ask when they are desperate and they are grateful for the help.


That turned into a bit more than I planned.

Happy Xmas

EM