revalation - why BPD are attractive to us

[maxsterling]

Last night I sat in group therapy.  We had a mindfulness exercise where we were to imagine a comforting place.  Afterwards, we discussed this as a coping mechanism in times of distress, to go someplace quiet and imagine a safe and comforting place. 

Later, we discussed learning how to comfort ourselves and feel our emotions rather than hide from them or dismiss them.  The idea is to become less needy of other people or things to deal with our emotions.  I recognized that I don't typically need other people to deal with my emotions, but I have needed things such as television or hobbies.  Sometimes during times of great emotion I put all my energy into a project to the determent of other needs (like eating).  It's a natural mechanism - we are uncomfortable when we are angry or sad, so we find some way of distracting ourselves in hopes the feeling goes away. 

I then came home to a very irritable wife.  I know why she is irritated - because of work.  She now thinks everyone there hates her, she has painted them all black, and is upset that she still has to work with them.  Of course, she does not express it that way and her emotions come out in frustrations at other things, crying, or extreme neediness.  At one point she literally stamped her feet and yelled out "I hate it! I hate it! I hate it!" 

This got me thinking - that type of stamping the feet reaction we have all done - but most of us only as children.  I then recognized that at times, I somehow feel like that is what I want to do, but don't.  Sometime while growing up I learned new strategies of dealing with my emotions rather than just randomly yell out and be destructive.  But occasionally, the thought and urge still briefly crosses my mind for a second or two.  But - I stop myself and no longer slam doors, yell out, or kick things.   

This got me thinking this morning. Perhaps one of the reasons pwBPD are attractive to us is that on some level, we identify with the way they express their emotions.  I know when my wife is emotional about something I can identify with her emotions and urges, but not the severity of her reactions.  So, it's like I identify with her primal (childlike) reaction to things, and in a weird way feel comforted by it because it contrasts to the way I react.  In other words, maybe subconsciously I wish I could react the way she does, but have learned to be more reserved.   She's reacting in ways that to me feel raw and primal and natural, and I find that attractive because I wish I could get away with reacting in such a way.

Thoughts?

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[Cat Familiar]

I was initially attracted to the open and vulnerable side of my husband, which appeared childlike and innocent.

I am not at all attracted to the raging irrational side he later presented. Seeing the totality of his personality has killed any romantic desire I once had for him.

[MaroonLiquid]

I was initially attracted to the open and vulnerable side of my husband, which appeared childlike and innocent.

I am not at all attracted to the raging irrational side he later presented. Seeing the totality of his personality has killed any romantic desire I once had for him.

     I was initially attracted to the vulnerable side of my wife as well and the fact that we were very compatible.  There was quite a few things that we have in common, like football that she loved since childhood.  That isn't from her, that was actually said by her sister and mom and told me, "We are so glad she found someone that loved football as much as she does."  One big thing that attracted me to her was her willingness to "be led" from a Christian standpoint.  That didn't last long  .  Another big attraction is how compatible we are physically and how fulfilling it is.  One thing I loved (and miss during our separation) is that she would lay her head on my chest at night and let me stroke her hair and she would fall asleep.     

     I am not attracted to the raging, vengeful woman that she becomes at all.  It is demonic, pure and simple.  It is sad that she becomes that "other thing" and I hate it.  My wife is beautiful, but equally ugly when she turns into the "other thing", if that makes sense.  I have a picture of the two of us after we were first married and one about 10 months ago side by side (photshopped together).  The one from after we were first married, she looked gorgeous, had color in her face, very feminine and in the other, looked pale, almost dead, lifeless in the eyes.  Demonic.

[sweetheart]

Hi max,

Below is taken from an article on Projective Identification which came to mind when reading your post ;

Unconscious choice of partner

Projective identification, usually in a less extreme form, continues to link objects in adult life too. It plays a part in the process whereby couples unconsciously connect up to form a relationship. Rosenfeld observes how projective identification is the process involved in recognising objects and identifying them, sometimes with the aim of making essential links with them (Rosenfeld, 1983). A similar theory underlies the concept of 'unconscious choice' of partner (Pincus, 1960), developed over the years within the Tavistock Marital Studies Institute. This has been understood as the process whereby couples make a choice of partner based on the unconscious recognition in the other of disowned aspects of the self, with which there is at some level, a wish to make closer contact, for developmental or defensive purposes, or both. For example, an active, competent, assertive man may choose a partner who is depressed because he cannot bear to acknowledge these depressed feelings in himself, preferring to locate them in his wife. At the same time the woman may feel anxious about being directly in touch with her more assertive and competent aspects and prefer to locate these aspects in her husband. The unconscious hope behind such a choice is the opportunity for each partner to gradually take back and reintegrate these split off parts of the self.



Do you want to reclaim the now identifiable angry bits of yourself and find a way to express them ? Is being angry something you are able to be ?

How do you think this revelation might help you?

[sweetheart]

Link for the article www.psychoanalysis.org.uk/gridlock.htm

[ColdEthyl]

Max,

I was initially attracted to my husband because we have similar viewpoints, likes and dislikes. I loved his sensitive/child like side that has been referenced. The demon BPD side... .I didn't understand what the heck that was right away but I knew something wrong was going on. I knew he 'had something'.

I have never liked that side of him. I don't like to fight, even though he tries to pick fights when he's frustrated. (I no longer participate in this) I don't like he hides from all responsibility and tries to put it on me or another situation, then ends up blaming and hating himself over it.

I think, though, for me... .I think I'm committed and still attracted to my husband because he's a challenge, he's never boring, and I tend to focus on HIM and not ME. That way, I don't have to deal with my own thoughts and feelings that do nothing but bring me suffocating anxiety at times.

[Cloudy Days]

I don't know that this is what attracted me to my husband but I am certainly opposite of him in how I handle my emotions. When I get angry I cry or I am quiet and stew. When I am annoyed, I am quiet, even when I am very angry I will basically just not talk and avoid the person I am angry with, I suppose to could say silent treatment but It's very rare that I am that mad at someone.

My husband however is the complete opposite as you can imagine. He gets angry, he rages, he tells me when he is mad and why, he doesn't know what the silent treatment is because that has never been his style. I think I have always felt people don't care if I am mad so I just need to deal with it on my own terms on my own time. I will yell at someone if warranted though if it is something immediate and necessary. But you have to poke me for awhile before I go off. I suppose I can see that I chose the opposite of me because I do have thoughts of extreme behavior flash through my mind, but I don't do it and I never have.

I do know that I was attracted to my husband being vulnerable emotionally as well. I don't think I had encountered that in another person ever in my life. My family did not share feelings like he did with me, it was refreshing and it certainly had a lot to do with me falling for him. I am still pretty guarded with my feelings and how I share them. It felt like he was sharing his soul to me, and I still don't think I have ever came close to doing the same.  

[Cat Familiar]

So it appears that many of us were attracted to the childlike qualities in our mates. And now, we turnaround and complain that we married childish spouses! 

[TheRealJongoBong]

So it appears that many of us were attracted to the childlike qualities in our mates. And now, we turnaround and complain that we married childish spouses! 

Ouch! That hits mighty close to home! I was attracted to both my 1st and 2nd wife because of their childlike qualities, certainly not their BPD qualities which showed up later. I never thought at the time it was bloody stupid.

[ColdEthyl]

So it appears that many of us were attracted to the childlike qualities in our mates. And now, we turnaround and complain that we married childish spouses! 

That's the long and short of it roflmao

I guess the question is why? Why were we attracted to the childlike qualities? I dunno... .for me I've always felt like a champion of the 'forgotten' people. As a kid, I had friends in all sort of cliques that were in my school... .nerds... .goths... .punks... .freaks... .jocks... .etc

The things that bother me the most in the news are innocents being abused... .the elderly, the children, the animals.

Perhaps... .because my own innocence was lost, I try to save everyone else's. pwBPD show that 'innocent' quality to them first. You don't know the other side. That sucker slips out later.

[maxsterling]

Good discussion.

I'm not saying I am attracted to the rages or want the rages from my partner, but that on a very primitive level I understand them.  Sweetheart - I love that excerpt.  I think it describes what I am trying to say here.   I'm not saying that I want to be angry and rage, but I am saying there was a time when I was little that if I was mad I might throw my toys, slam the door if I was sent to my room, or spend hours complaining about something that didn't matter.  

But on a subconscious level - maybe those more primitive reactions are in some way attractive.  I consider myself to be a person who tends to overthink things.  I might spend considerable time thinking about what to say to someone, but my wife will just say it (and be forced to regret it later).  Not that I want to rage or be mean, but the idea of just reacting without thinking about it too much is attractive and a quality I wish I had.  I'm the type of person who always failed at comebacks when someone said something to me, and have difficulties responding quickly when someone asks me something I am unprepared for.  

[ColdEthyl]

Good discussion.

I'm not saying I am attracted to the rages or want the rages from my partner, but that on a very primitive level I understand them.  Sweetheart - I love that excerpt.  I think it describes what I am trying to say here.   I'm not saying that I want to be angry and rage, but I am saying there was a time when I was little that if I was mad I might throw my toys, slam the door if I was sent to my room, or spend hours complaining about something that didn't matter.  

But on a subconscious level - maybe those more primitive reactions are in some way attractive.  I consider myself to be a person who tends to overthink things.  I might spend considerable time thinking about what to say to someone, but my wife will just say it (and be forced to regret it later).  Not that I want to rage or be mean, but the idea of just reacting without thinking about it too much is attractive and a quality I wish I had.  I'm the type of person who always failed at comebacks when someone said something to me, and have difficulties responding quickly when someone asks me something I am unprepared for.  

I see what you are saying there, Max. It's not like that for me... .I'm pretty blunt and overly honest by nature, so me and hubs are kind of the same there. I have gotten mad and threw fits. The comebacks though... .I do tend to freeze up then think of awesome stuff I should have said later on

[eeks]

I'm not "staying", but I read these threads from time to time.  I had a different theory, that the people who get emotionally hooked by idealization/devaluation, that is likely correlated with having had a perfectionistic parent, who gave conditional love, i.e. the stated or implied message "I'll love you when you're good enough" (of course, maybe the bar keeps getting raised/changed, and even if you get it perfect they'll find something else to criticize you on)

When I first met my uBPD ex he was revealing of his fears right away, that I wouldn't call him or I'd reject him for some reason (and it was almost endearing, and refreshing because let's get it out in the open, and I reassured him).  I didn't know at that time that his criticism of himself would become criticism of me.  Here is where I'm saying the perfectionism comes in... .when the nastiness starts, actually taking it seriously (thinking to yourself "oh no, here are all the reasons I am not lovable" rather than seeing it as being about them.

[Cat Familiar]

I think you're onto something, eeks, with the critical parent. My BPD mother constantly criticized me and both husbands, when we were dating, idolized me. It felt so good to finally be appreciated. Of course, the painting white didn't last, but it sure felt good when it did. I don't think it would nowadays, now that I understand what's to come when the painter changes the color of the paint.

[thisagain]

Thanks for the interesting thread!

I don't think I was attracted to the rages at all. We were living together by the time the rages came out; before, there was just withdrawing and pulling away. I think that it was easier for me to see her as a sweet victim who just needed to be loved, because the early push-pull only involved withdrawing. Living together brought out the more disordered behaviors like raging to push me away and sabotaging the relationship.

I guess you could say I was attracted to childlike qualities, but it was more about the joy, laughter, and seemingly carefree spontaneity that we had at first. We love going for walks and looking at all the flowers and birds. She always finds something special to show me, like a flower growing out of a tree stump. Our favorite date was going to the aquarium to see fishies and penguins. She was always up for any adventure I wanted to go on, like driving to another state just because I'd never been there. How she shows me the joy and wonder in simple everyday things, that's something I've always loved.

My parents' love was very conditional. But I worked VERY hard in individual T before meeting my partner, and I knew right away that my partner's behavior was not my fault. The first time she withdrew I got really upset, because I knew that I didn't deserve that, I just wanted to love her and say nice things to her and it wasn't fair for her to push me away. Why I stayed is another story that I haven't entirely figured out... .

[rotiroti]

I'm not "staying", but I read these threads from time to time.  I had a different theory, that the people who get emotionally hooked by idealization/devaluation, that is likely correlated with having had a perfectionistic parent, who gave conditional love, i.e. the stated or implied message "I'll love you when you're good enough" (of course, maybe the bar keeps getting raised/changed, and even if you get it perfect they'll find something else to criticize you on)

When I first met my uBPD ex he was revealing of his fears right away, that I wouldn't call him or I'd reject him for some reason (and it was almost endearing, and refreshing because let's get it out in the open, and I reassured him).  I didn't know at that time that his criticism of himself would become criticism of me.  Here is where I'm saying the perfectionism comes in... .when the nastiness starts, actually taking it seriously (thinking to yourself "oh no, here are all the reasons I am not lovable" rather than seeing it as being about them.

I was completely hooked by the idealization. Throughout the years I had no idea what BPD was... .nor what mirroring and all of the terms throughout this site. It didn't even cross my mind that it was odd that she liked everything I liked, found it endearing when she was copying mannerisms, or telling me that all of this felt like destiny. I ate it all up as I was lonely at the time. I suppose this relates to everyone's post about the attraction to the childlike vulnerability - that fantasy's promise is incredibly intoxicating.

It's a sad moment to witness the rage... .or witnessing parts of themselves they were keeping at bay in order to present to us with a version they think we'll love.

[Notwendy]

eeks, I think you are right on but it was me who did the idealization.

My H had the exact parent you described, and I did too. However, my home life was way more dysfunctional than my H's- and I believe more damaging emotionally.

I don't think my idealization style was the same as someone with BPD and it didn't come from the same motivation. When my mother was raging, she would say things like tell me I was unlovable, the cause of her problems with my father, and so on. This made me vulnerable to affection. If someone threw me a crumb of affection, I was over the moon.

My life was not a mess. I was educated and independent, but I had no self esteem and if someone cared about me, I was too scared to rock the boat. I was attracted to my H because he seemed so stable, and he is, but emotionally he was similar to me, except he tends to project his bad feelings.


I think we are both able to trigger each other and- I think that is a basis for attraction in people. I think people also pair up into those who project and those who are projected on.

Dealing with projections was one of the first things I worked on with regards to myself and they don't have the same effect as they did. My boundaries are stronger.

[Cloudy Days]

My life was not a mess. I was educated and independent, but I had no self esteem and if someone cared about me, I was too scared to rock the boat. I was attracted to my H because he seemed so stable, and he is, but emotionally he was similar to me, except he tends to project his bad feelings.

I had the same self esteem, however my parents never abused me, they more or less ignored me because they had so many marital problems. They fought constantly and in the process me and my brother were ignored. I became the type of kid that would do good to get recognition, my brother did the opposite. Once I found my husband, he was so affectionate and loving to me that I clung to the feeling of being loved and adored and special. I was so used to a dysfunctional family that when he started the abusive aspect of the relationship several months into it, I just wanted that love back. I didn't understand why he was acting the way he was I was just so desperate to feel how he made me feel again. And fighting wasn't a new thing to me it was modeled by my parents for years so It didn't really click that it wasn't suppose to work that way. It's a drug really, an addiction.

[HappyNihilist]

But on a subconscious level - maybe those more primitive reactions are in some way attractive.  I consider myself to be a person who tends to overthink things.  I might spend considerable time thinking about what to say to someone, but my wife will just say it (and be forced to regret it later).  Not that I want to rage or be mean, but the idea of just reacting without thinking about it too much is attractive and a quality I wish I had.  

max, it sounds like you've hit on something important here for yourself, and definitely worth more exploration. 

I understand the overthinking. I'm typically a thoughtful, rational person. For a while, I admired my exBPDbf for saying what he wanted, not 'restraining' himself in his reactions. It seemed so freeing to me!

But then I started to really think about it. I thought about times when I reacted emotionally without thinking. At the time, it felt like I was just expressing/defending myself - but once I'd come down emotionally, I regretted what I'd said. That never left me feeling good about myself. It just added to the shame and guilt I already struggled with. And no situation was ever improved by me reacting that way. Far from being 'freeing,' it felt more like a quicksand trap of shame and regret.

What is it about the reacting without thinking that seems appealing to you? Does it seem like it would be easier? Do you think it would be a more genuine expression of yourself somehow?

I think there are times when all of us 'resent' having to be a rational adult - especially when our SOs are not always rational adults. Are these traits that you always wished you had, or has it just come to light since being with your wife?

[specialized]

yes i agree. my wife has no problem with confrontation - with anyone , family or a perfect stranger! and i might think if i wasnt so reserved i would have said or done this or that but she actually does it but 10x larger than i would think.I used to think this was so cool!  when i first met her i was like wow this girl is so confident in her own shoes - i almost felt abnormal because her actions were so instant and loud but right to the point. so yes she was acting out just the way i felt on the inside - my way is more non-confrontational but i get my point across ( the whole time i might be thinking id really like to kick someones butt but in reality i never would... .but she would)

[formflier]

 

I was attracted to my wife because we seemed to "click" and "get" each other.

There was a time when she could seemingly "read" my emotions properly and when she would suggest what I was feeling... .she was right.

I dated quite a bit before meeting my wife.  Had some serious relationships but never seriously considered getting engaged or married.  I believed I would find a soul mate... .someone that "got me"... and I them... .and at that would be  the right person for me.

I married my wife 3 years after I met her.  Never suspected anything was "wrong" until about 15 years into marriage.  Sure we had arguments... .but there seemed to be a time where we talked... .asked forgiveness... .and moved on. 

Sure... .looking back... I can see hints... .

Good topic... keep it going.

FF

[Notwendy]

I was attracted to my wife because we seemed to "click" and "get" each other.

It's that "click" that is revealing about ourselves. It is a mystery why we "click" so intensely with some people and not with others. Theories about this point to our FOO's. This "click" is subconscious, emotional, some say spiritual.

It is something about US that makes pwBPD attractive to us. Some people may argue it was bad luck, fate, we had nothing to do with it, we just ended up with this person and it is all the person's issue, not ours.

Everything I have read about marriage and relationships has confirmed my feelings that there is something about me that made me "click" with my H, and him with me, and this applies to all marriages. All marriages have some difficulties. BPD may make them more intense.

Some books on marriage brought up the idea that if one leaves the marriage in a point of conflict, then one can end up in a similar situation with someone else, because the reasons we are attracted to someone is part of us. If we are attracted to someone with BPD, and we leave that situation without gaining some personal insight, or making some changes, then we are likely to attract someone who is similar.

This doesn't mean we should not ever consider leaving a relationship. Although this is the staying board, I don't believe all relationships can be worked out. There are some that are just not viable and some are abusive to the point of being dangerous. However, I do believe that whether or not one stays or leaves, taking account of our own issues and contributions to the dysfunction- the why are they attractive to us- can lead to personal growth and improved relationships with the people in our lives.

[JQ]

hi Max 

Interesting concept you talk about ... .through therapy & a book called "The Human Magnet Syndrome" I learned why I, "a codependent" was very much attracted to someone who was "BPD".  Those two types of personalities are at the complete opposites spectrums on the scale tend to attract each other like the north pole & south pole of a magnet ... .you can't stop it ... .but understanding it better you can can attempt to control your own behavior. You have that push / pull of the relationship ... .I don't know if it was the book, the therapy or a combination of both that made me realize that this was going to be a very difficult relationship.

J