Is this gaslighting/manipulative behaviour?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi everybody,

I started a relationship with a man this spring and things were going great. After some months passed we started having reoccurring arguments and at 6 months he told me his feelings changed as he felt I was always arguing with him without good reason. After a few weeks of being broken up he regretted the breakup and said he wanted to give things another go. After a few weeks of being back together I asked him about his feelings and he told me that his feelings were growing stronger and were stronger than when we broke up but he didn't currently love me. I became really upset but he told me there was nothing to be upset about as feelings can be rekindled and there was nothing to worry about and to continue as we were. I said I was worried that if we argued he would lose feelings again and he responded "then don't argue". I wasn't impressed with this response but I tried to let it go. He elaborated later saying he doesn't mind if it is every month or so but not if it is often. 

A few days before Christmas I told him I was really excited to give him his Christmas present. He responded by telling me that he doesn't have enough time to get me anything and it will have to wait until new years for him to get me something. I was disappointed and told him not to bother with presents then and he responded by saying "calm down stroppy, stroppy little thing aren't you". This annoyed me even more and I said how disappointed I was to which he responded that I didn't tell him what I wanted when he asked. The next day he made small talk in the evening like nothing had happened. I didn't reply as I was still a bit disappointed and also because I was tired as it was late.

 The next day I spoke to him on the phone (we were due to meet up this day) and he told me he was seeing his friend in the evening. I said I wished he had told me as I thought we were meeting and would have made other plans. He then just told me he hadn't seen his friend for a while and I was being "a brat and a pain by not replying to his message so thought sod it" so he thought he would do something else instead. I told him how disappointed I was that he keeps talking to me like this and I feel like he always dismisses my feelings and brought up these 2 things with him. He told me that he hasn't dismissed my feelings, that he was joking when he said he hadn't got me a present and it was my fault for getting the wrong end of the stick, that I should have realised he had got me one, that I argue and get annoyed over the slightest thing, and that I need to stop being childish and learn how to take a joke. He denied doing anything wrong and said he doesn't understand why I always have to argue for days on end and I am the only person he knows who does this. I told him if he apologised and just stopped putting me down when I'm annoyed that we wouldn't have problems and he told me he hadn't done anything wrong and has already apologised several times (even though he didn't). He said he isn't going to put up with me for the next 50 years with me doing this so if I can't move from things then to leave. I said okay lets leave it then and for him to be by himself and he told me I was childish. Even though he was the one who brought it up?
He ended the conversation a bit later saying "anything else you want to discuss? no? just want to make everything about you then?"

I'm left feeling really hurt and confused. I feel like he has been rude is not being respectful, but the way he gets so irritated and makes me feel like the problem is me being sensitive and argumentative makes me doubt myself. He has admitted to me before that he hates taking responsibility and cant admit he's wrong but this is getting ridiculous. He makes me feel like 'my constant arguing and getting annoyed for no reason/about the slightest thing' is driving him away but I don't see how it can be improved. He used to be so lovely, he was the first really nice boyfriend I ever had, but now I can't work out whether I that bad after all or whether he is the problem.

Is this gaslighting/manipulative behaviour or am I taking things too seriously?

[klacey3]

Hi everybody,

I started a relationship with a man this spring and things were going great. After some months passed we started having reoccurring arguments and at 6 months he told me his feelings changed as he felt I was always arguing with him without good reason. After a few weeks of being broken up he regretted the breakup and said he wanted to give things another go. After a few weeks of being back together I asked him about his feelings and he told me that his feelings were growing stronger and were stronger than when we broke up but he didn't currently love me. I became really upset but he told me there was nothing to be upset about as feelings can be rekindled and there was nothing to worry about and to continue as we were. I said I was worried that if we argued he would lose feelings again and he responded "then don't argue". I wasn't impressed with this response but I tried to let it go. He elaborated later saying he doesn't mind if it is every month or so but not if it is often. 

A few days before Christmas I told him I was really excited to give him his Christmas present. He responded by telling me that he doesn't have enough time to get me anything and it will have to wait until new years for him to get me something. I was disappointed and told him not to bother with presents then and he responded by saying "calm down stroppy, stroppy little thing aren't you". This annoyed me even more and I said how disappointed I was to which he responded that I didn't tell him what I wanted when he asked. The next day he made small talk in the evening like nothing had happened. I didn't reply as I was still a bit disappointed and also because I was tired as it was late.

 The next day I spoke to him on the phone (we were due to meet up this day) and he told me he was seeing his friend in the evening. I said I wished he had told me as I thought we were meeting and would have made other plans. He then just told me he hadn't seen his friend for a while and I was being "a brat and a pain by not replying to his message so thought sod it" so he thought he would do something else instead. I told him how disappointed I was that he keeps talking to me like this and I feel like he always dismisses my feelings and brought up these 2 things with him. He told me that he hasn't dismissed my feelings, that he was joking when he said he hadn't got me a present and it was my fault for getting the wrong end of the stick, that I should have realised he had got me one, that I argue and get annoyed over the slightest thing, and that I need to stop being childish and learn how to take a joke. He denied doing anything wrong and said he doesn't understand why I always have to argue for days on end and I am the only person he knows who does this. I told him if he apologised and just stopped putting me down when I'm annoyed that we wouldn't have problems and he told me he hadn't done anything wrong and has already apologised several times (even though he didn't). He said he isn't going to put up with me for the next 50 years with me doing this so if I can't move from things then to leave. I said okay lets leave it then and for him to be by himself and he told me I was childish. Even though he was the one who brought it up?
He ended the conversation a bit later saying "anything else you want to discuss? no? just want to make everything about you then?"

I'm left feeling really hurt and confused. I feel like he has been rude is not being respectful, but the way he gets so irritated and makes me feel like the problem is me being sensitive and argumentative makes me doubt myself. He has admitted to me before that he hates taking responsibility and cant admit he's wrong but this is getting ridiculous. He makes me feel like 'my constant arguing and getting annoyed for no reason/about the slightest thing' is driving him away but I don't see how it can be improved. He used to be so lovely, he was the first really nice boyfriend I ever had, but now I can't work out whether I that bad after all or whether he is the problem.

Is this gaslighting/manipulative behaviour or am I taking things too seriously?

[formflier]

I think you should take this seriously.  He is.

He has tested you to see if you allow this type of talk.  He has realized that you will complain about it... .but that's about it.  And for unknown reasons this type of "reaction getting" from you is working for him... .filling some need that he has.

There is little chance that you will talk him out of this behavior.

There is a very good chance that by altering your behavior he will alter his.  It's not an exact science, but likelihood that he will continue doing what he is doing, when you are no longer "dancing" (reacting) with him in the same way is very low.

This stuff is very frustrating.  Hang in there.

How do you plan to proceed?

FF

[klacey3]

I think you should take this seriously.  He is.

He has tested you to see if you allow this type of talk.  He has realized that you will complain about it... .but that's about it.  And for unknown reasons this type of "reaction getting" from you is working for him... .filling some need that he has.

There is little chance that you will talk him out of this behavior.

There is a very good chance that by altering your behavior he will alter his.  It's not an exact science, but likelihood that he will continue doing what he is doing, when you are no longer "dancing" (reacting) with him in the same way is very low.

This stuff is very frustrating.  Hang in there.

How do you plan to proceed?

FF

When you say 'he is' do you mean he is manipulative and gaslighting?

Apart from complaining and trying to get him to stop doing and saying things he knows is causing a problem, I don't know what else I can do. The most frustrating thing is I feel like i cant bring anything up. He says I create arguments but I don't see it as arguing to tell him what he has done to upset me, I feel he turns it into an argument by criticising.  If i 'argue' it's as if his feelings for me lessen. He got so annoyed I didnt reply to a message he didn't want to see me the next day but he accuses me of carrying on arguments for days, it isn't fair.

What is an alternative? I'm thinking at the moment I shouldn't be with someone who is so flakey and makes me feel bad for being annoyed at something a normal person would be.

  I'm not sure, sometimes I think I am being over sensitive and he hasn't done anything wrong or offensive after all?

[ortac77]

What is an alternative? I'm thinking at the moment I shouldn't be with someone who is so flakey and makes me feel bad for being annoyed at something a normal person would be.

  I'm not sure, sometimes I think I am being over sensitive and he hasn't done anything wrong or offensive after all?

All I can say is I wished I had listened to myself when I had those same thoughts? If he has BPD then he isn't normal, he has an illness that causes him to behave in ways that will trigger all your sensitivities. You are not the cause, it doesn't seem in the least oversensitive, listen to your heart but also listen to your head. If they are out of synch then something is wrong.

[formflier]

When you say 'he is' do you mean he is manipulative and gaslighting?
 

 

Sorry... .I usually try to keep it short... .sometimes you can be too short.

He is taking it seriously.  He is making decisions about how he treats you, based on how you react (not what you say).  Since he is watching and taking this seriously... .I suggest you do as well.

I'm going to tentatively suggest that he is "projecting" his emotions and thoughts onto you.  Perhaps some blame in there.

"Gaslighting":  Generally not a term that is encouraged on bpdfamily.  I'm not completely familiar with the nuances of why it is not encouraged. 

To me "projection" is done unconsciously.  That is likely what is going on here.  He feels... .he projects.  While it feels manipulative, I doubt he is doing it consciously.  Consciously means actively plotting to deceive. 

Please do not try to convince him of how he is thinking.  Rarely a productive effort.


FF

[klacey3]

Sorry... .I usually try to keep it short... .sometimes you can be too short.

He is taking it seriously.  He is making decisions about how he treats you, based on how you react (not what you say).  Since he is watching and taking this seriously... .I suggest you do as well.

I'm going to tentatively suggest that he is "projecting" his emotions and thoughts onto you.  Perhaps some blame in there.

"Gaslighting":  Generally not a term that is encouraged on bpdfamily.  I'm not completely familiar with the nuances of why it is not encouraged. 

To me "projection" is done unconsciously.  That is likely what is going on here.  He feels... .he projects.  While it feels manipulative, I doubt he is doing it consciously.  Consciously means actively plotting to deceive. 

Please do not try to convince him of how he is thinking.  Rarely a productive effort.


FF

I'm not sure i understand what you mean. He is taking what seriously? Watching what? Suggest I do what?
My original question was is he being manipulative or am I overreacting and being too sensitive

[formflier]

OK... .he is being manipulative, but he is NOT doing it in a plotting "manipulative" way.  (this is my best guess... .and informed guess... .but still a guess).

Most likely he is responding to a feeling of the moment... .and his feeling about how history was (vice reality).  It feels manipulative to you.

Dynamic:  He treats you bad, you complain verbally but continue in relationship with him.  He watches this and takes it seriously.  He sees  "it's ok to treat me bad... .I'll bark about it... .but I won't bite."

What to do?  Big picture:  When he treats you bad... .go do something else.  When he treats you with respect... .do stuff with him. 

FF

[lovenature]

Hi klacey3

Manipulation and gas lighting are by products of BPD, some will argue that we shouldn't use these words on here, what people need to understand is that PWBPD don't intentionally try to manipulate or gas light but that is what occurs when they make up their own reality to fit their current emotion of the moment.

I would advise that you proceed with caution, I agree with formflier, it sounds like projection.

You have been around here a while like I have, think about what happened in your previous relationship and compare it to this one. Think about what YOU really want!

[klacey3]

Sorry everybody, I didn't need to offend anyone with my terminology. I just didn't know how to word what I was trying to say. Sorry again. 

[Skip]

It seems like your question is simply, "we are fighting, who is right, him or me?"

For the most part, members don't want to get triangulated into an argument between a couple and polarize this situation more. It's very polarized already.

What really stands out from your posts is:

1. You two argue a lot and its reoccurring arguments
2. He says he feels stronger about you, but doesn't love you. This is not a full on romantic relationship at this point.
3. You both are more invested in being right than solving the problem

A few days before Christmas I told him I was really excited to give him his Christmas present. He responded by telling me that he doesn't have enough time to get me anything and it will have to wait until new years for him to get me something.

• You two were not on the same page for Christmas. This would hurt my feelings, too. Why you were not on the same page is not clear in your post.

I was disappointed and told him not to bother with presents

• This is passive aggressive.

then and he responded by saying "calm down stroppy, stroppy little thing aren't you".

• This is defensive and not solution oriented...

This annoyed me even more and I said how disappointed I was

• More fighting - honest, but not solution oriented.

to which he responded that I didn't tell him what I wanted when he asked.

• Blame shifting.

The next day he made small talk in the evening like nothing had happened.

• very possibly he got the message and was planning to get a gift

I didn't reply as I was still a bit disappointed and also because I was tired as it was late.

• Silent treatment - passive aggressive - stoking the controversy back up.

The next day I spoke to him on the phone (we were due to meet up this day) and he told me he was seeing his friend in the evening.

• he was not going to reward the silent treatment- passive aggressive.

I said I wished he had told me as I thought we were meeting and would have made other plans.

• Devolving

He then just told me I was being "a brat and a pain by not replying to his message so thought sod it" so he thought he would do something else instead.

• Devolving

Bottom line, he didn't get you a gift, you were hurt, and you tore each other apart rather than solving a clearly awkward, hurtful, but solvable situation.

A relationship is a lot about how we fight. In this case, neither of you tried to solve the dispute or hurt, you both got defensive.

You (as a couple) are showing all the signs of a relationship in the stages of breakdown. If you look at this scale in the article, where are you - Stage 2, 3, or 4?
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

[klacey3]

It seems like your question is simply, "we are fighting, who is right, him or me?"

For the most part, members don't want to get triangulated into an argument between a couple and polarize this situation more. It's very polarized already.

What really stands out from your posts is:

1. You two argue a lot and its reoccurring arguments
2. He says he feels stronger about you, but doesn't love you. This is not a full on romantic relationship at this point.
3. You both are more invested in being right than solving the problem

Bottom line, he didn't get you a gift, you were hurt, and you tore each other apart rather than solving a clearly awkward, hurtful, but solvable situation.

A relationship is a lot about how we fight. In this case, neither of you tried to solve the dispute or hurt, you both got defensive.

You (as a couple) are showing all the signs of a relationship in the stages of breakdown. If you look at this scale in the article, where are you - Stage 2, 3, or 4?
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

Thanks for your response. With the presents thing - he told me on the phone it was a joke and he had got me something and it was my fault for being annoyed because I should have known better than to believe it and apparently I got the wrong end of the stick. I care more about resolving the situation rather than whether I am right or not, but sometimes it is helpful to get clarification from other people on a situation. I wasn't sure whether this behaviour was manipulative or not. I care about resolving this issue hence why I tried to explain to him that I was hurt and why in attempt for him to realise so he could either apologise (which would have resolved the situation) or prevent it happening again. Instead I got blamed and insulted and my feelings dismissed. I didn't expect a 'reward' for not responding to a message, it wasn't a punishment. If I was to talk to him like nothing has happened then this would be 'rewarding' his behaviour and make him think he can upset me and to skim past it without dealing with it. Silent treatment wasn't a punishment, I just didn't want to talk to him at that time. If I explain how I feel I'm overreacting/he has done nothing wrong and if I pretend I am not unhappy I feel dismissed, or if I don't talk to him for a while then I'm passive aggressive for not talking? there doesn't seem to be a win

[Skip]

Stage 2, 3 or 4?

[klacey3]

Stage 2, 3 or 4?

I'm not sure to be honest, I don't know how he see's things

[SettingBorders]

I think, his behaviour is very dominant and for sure he was testing how far he can go with you. You're posting in Conflicted or Deciding about a Relationship, so I think you must have thought about breaking up. I cant't tell if his behaviour is gaslighting or "only" fue to an illness. But I can tell you: That' not a man that will make you happy. A man that is able to make you happy would recognize when he accidentally hurt you and take responsibility for it.

Regarding your silent treatment: you have to ask yourself the question weather you did it in order to calm down yourself or in order to change his behaviour.

[Skip]

I'm not sure to be honest, I don't know how he see's things

I was asking what stage are you in. If you don't want to be bothered with it, it's ok.  

I care about resolving this issue hence why I tried to explain to him that I was hurt and why in attempt for him to realise so he could either apologise (which would have resolved the situation) or prevent it happening again. Instead I got... .

I think you are saying you cared about him resolving it. He had the same opinion - he wanted you to resolve it.

Solving it from your end would be to say - do you want to exchange presents, I understand if you don't. Christmas is the season of peace.

Solving it from his end would be to say - I guess I didn't think we were exchanging gift, but that would nice. I'll be ready on Christmas day. Christmas is the season of giving.

[klacey3]

I was asking what stage are you in. If you don't want to be bothered with it, it's ok.  

I think you are saying you cared about him resolving it. He had the same opinion - he wanted you to resolve it.

Solving it from your end would be to say - do you want to exchange presents, I understand if you don't. Christmas is the season of peace.

Solving it from his end would be to say - I guess I didn't think we were exchanging gift, but that would nice. I'll be ready on Christmas day. Christmas is the season of giving.

As I said, I don't know what stage we are in as I don't know from his perspective how he sees me at the moment.

We had already agreed weeks ago that we would exchange presents

[Skip]

Does this seem right?

Stage Three Most people find conflict and contempt to be stressful and react to such conditions by entering the third stage of breakdown, characterized by partner's increasingly defensive behavior. Men in particular (but women too) become hardened by the chronicity of the ongoing conflict, and may react even more acutely during moments when conflict is most heated by becoming overwhelmed and "flooded"; a condition which is psychologically and emotionally quite painful. Over time, partners learn to expect that they are 'gridlocked'; that they cannot resolve their differences, and that any attempts at resolution will result in further overwhelm, hurt or disappointment.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

Conflict by itself doesn't predict relationship problems. Some couples fight a lot but somehow never manage to lose respect for each other. Once contempt sets in, however, the relationship is on shaky ground. Feelings of contempt for one's partner are a powerful predictor of relationship breakdown, no matter how subtlety they are displayed. In a famous study, Gottman was able to predict with over 80% accuracy the future breakups of multiple couples he and his team observed based on subtle body language cues suggesting contemptuous feelings (such as dismissive eye-rolling). Contempt doesn't have to be expressed openly for it to be hard at work rotting the foundations of one's relationship.

I know you are upset with all of this. It is an awkward, hurtful situation.

It might help if you both look at this and were you are going.

[lovenature]

A man that is able to make you happy would recognize when he accidentally hurt you and take responsibility for it.

No one can "make" someone happy if they aren't happy (content) with themselves; you can't truly love someone else if you don't love yourself.
I believe the healthiest relationships happen when BOTH partners think about the other's feelings before their own.