BPD and npd at same time , really?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I understand it is more complex, but at least in one compartment I really struggle to see how!

Bpd, the subject has a weak or a lack of stable self

Npd, the subject has a strong , or to much of the self.

Should not these disorders equalize, at least in this separate view?

[borderdude]

I understand it is more complex, but at least in one compartment I really struggle to see how!

Bpd, the subject has a weak or a lack of stable self

Npd, the subject has a strong , or to much of the self.

Should not these disorders equalize, at least in this separate view?

[Infern0]

The disorders kick in at different times.

All BPD are narcissists.

Once you get in a relationship with them the narc side usually becomes more apparent as they are drawing N supply from you.  This is why they suddenly turn passive agressive and think they are s*** hot where when you first meet them and they haven't drained enough supply from you yet they are self depreciating.

Mine would be all "a guy like you would never want me" etc etc.  To be honest she was right at tge start but alas the idealisation prooved too much to resist. When I asked her to be my girlfriend she almost fainted and was crying and thanking me etc.

A few months later she had soul sucked me and I was the one (falsely) beliving that she was too good for me

[borderdude]

They are not complete, so they become more complete by borrowing some of the self from you?

Is this a kind of definition of the term supply?

[Blimblam]

I've known one that clearly was that.  She was sort of pretty but didnt see the attraction she seemed pretty dang popular though. But man she just treated people like trash.  She was a friend of my ex.  

My ex was like the diamond in the rough BPD that I've known.  All her gfs though were sort of in the cluster b spectrum with traits at least. Birds of a feather.


The thing about the BPD/npd is they have constructed more of a false self that they inflate with the idea of themself it is highly unstable so they are constantly needing validation. This girl was loud and talked nonstop she pulled some of the rudest moves I have ever seen.

She always seemed to get people to believe in her and get her way though she is very persistent.

[Infern0]

They are not complete, so they become more complete by borrowing some of the self from you?

Is this a kind of definition of the term supply?

That's pretty much it.

In essence they don't have ANY potential to generate self esteem or self worth. So they get it "supplied" by you.

But having supply drawn from you actually has an effect on you.

So as your levels of self esteem etc fall away,  theirs raises.

In many pwBPD/non relationships this is where things become unstable.

In my case I realised my self esteem was being eroded and I also realised she was getting too big for her boots,  Arguments began and essentially a war broke out with me enforcing my boundaries and her trying to break them.

What I did (without really knowing exactly what I was doing) was stopped giving her supply. I stopped praising,  started to withdraw,  stopped tolerating the passive agressive insults and started actually countering with insults of my own.

I ended up getting replaced at this point with an easier "mark"

This guy is now in counselling,  is depressed beyond belief,  has been hospitalized,  has stopped playing his team sport and more.  Instead of rebelling like me,  he's not realized that she's the problem and asked her to marry him.

Not to be off topic but it's a good example of how supply works for them,  they will take someone weak and pathetic over someone relatively strong JUST for the supply they get

[MrConfusedWithItAll]

The disorders kick in at different times.

All BPD are narcissists.

Once you get in a relationship with them the narc side usually becomes more apparent as they are drawing N supply from you.  This is why they suddenly turn passive agressive and think they are s*** hot where when you first meet them and they haven't drained enough supply from you yet they are self depreciating.

Mine would be all "a guy like you would never want me" etc etc.  To be honest she was right at tge start but alas the idealisation prooved too much to resist. When I asked her to be my girlfriend she almost fainted and was crying and thanking me etc.

A few months later she had soul sucked me and I was the one (falsely) beliving that she was too good for me

Yes this pretty much sums up my relationship.  Poor thing needed serious rescue work when I met her.  Within a couple of months she was a Queen with all the entitlement in the world.  She chipped away at my self esteem.  In the end I just wanted my old self back.  At some point she believed she was entitled to supply from more than one man. From the point she revealed that little bomb shell she never saw me again.  I could pity my replacement - but that sucker deserves it all since he knew she was already in a relationship.

[Infern0]

The disorders kick in at different times.

All BPD are narcissists.

Once you get in a relationship with them the narc side usually becomes more apparent as they are drawing N supply from you.  This is why they suddenly turn passive agressive and think they are s*** hot where when you first meet them and they haven't drained enough supply from you yet they are self depreciating.

Mine would be all "a guy like you would never want me" etc etc.  To be honest she was right at tge start but alas the idealisation prooved too much to resist. When I asked her to be my girlfriend she almost fainted and was crying and thanking me etc.

A few months later she had soul sucked me and I was the one (falsely) beliving that she was too good for me

Yes this pretty much sums up my relationship.  Poor thing needed serious rescue work when I met her.  Within a couple of months she was a Queen with all the entitlement in the world.  She chipped away at my self esteem.  In the end I just wanted my old self back.  At some point she believed she was entitled to supply from more than one man. From the point she revealed that little bomb shell she never saw me again.  I could pity my replacement - but that sucker deserves it all since he knew she was already in a relationship.

They all do this (triangulation)

It happens once the main source of supply starts to wear out,  which it invariably does (or the non leaves)

The ones who stay are the ones I feel sorry for,  getting cheated on repeatedly,  being cuckolded etc.

I can't imagine anything more horrifying

[borderdude]

They are not complete, so they become more complete by borrowing some of the self from you?

Is this a kind of definition of the term supply?

That's pretty much it.

In essence they don't have ANY potential to generate self esteem or self worth. So they get it "supplied" by you.

But having supply drawn from you actually has an effect on you.

So as your levels of self esteem etc fall away,  theirs raises.

In many pwBPD/non relationships this is where things become unstable.

In my case I realised my self esteem was being eroded and I also realised she was getting too big for her boots,  Arguments began and essentially a war broke out with me enforcing my boundaries and her trying to break them.

What I did (without really knowing exactly what I was doing) was stopped giving her supply. I stopped praising,  started to withdraw,  stopped tolerating the passive agressive insults and started actually countering with insults of my own.

I ended up getting replaced at this point with an easier "mark"

This guy is now in counselling,  is depressed beyond belief,  has been hospitalized,  has stopped playing his team sport and more.  Instead of rebelling like me,  he's not realized that she's the problem and asked her to marry him.

Not to be off topic but it's a good example of how supply works for them,  they will take someone weak and pathetic over someone relatively strong JUST for the supply they get

I easily start rebelling, and I did rebell. Always felt tested, to gauge where my boundaries where set. It as about you , and your definition about what you want from the RS, you yourself are the biggest "red" light.

She indirectly showed me that she always had some poor guy warmed up if I failed, well I did not care, it is really better to visit a prostitute than go to her, at least you are not weared out mentally.

[Infern0]

Same with me. I was always let know that bilbo baggins was waiting in the wings but he's welcome to her.  I have no sympathy for the guy whatsoever as he was actively trying to move in on my girlfriend. I hope his torment ruins him.

It's annoying because if you nut up and walk away they will always come back because in a weird way they respect your strength,  also they know when you get back to 100% you are a juicy source of supply. My T has told me I will probably ALWAYS hear from her every now and then.

Wonderful

[OC]

Well THAT answers every question I ever had about her -   Thank you.

Here's one more question regarding the behavioral aspect ... .and correct me if I have this wrong please.

The way I understand this, all narcissists are sociopaths with added "parameters" related to ego. This would mean a frontal lobe shut down / inability to feel empathy for others.

My question is: Is it possible for this disorder to blink in and out if it isn't "full blown" narcissism, just a frontal lobe glitch, or is it all part of the "using" game? There were aspects of her personality that seemed to show genuine "caring" - but then - the short circuit would happen, and she was "someone else." On a couple of occasions I dropped the line "Who the hell are you?"

I realize that these people can use the caring aspect to get what they want, and it's all a show - but doesn't self awareness have to be involved? She seemed to be on some level "aware" because she repeated a couple of lines quite a few times: "I DON'T USE PEOPLE!" - and - "Sometimes I feel like a sociopath."

She seemed to know SOMETHING was going on ... .but "knowing" wasn't totally there yet.

There were times, as I said, where the emotional part seemed genuine, even her reactions to "cute" stuff like puppies and babies. There was always a heart felt "awww" when she saw them, and it was real as far as I'm concerned.

So, is this a possible frontal lobe  / emotional glitch that turns on and off? Or is it - something else?

[Blimblam]

Well THAT answers every question I ever had about her -   Thank you.

Here's one more question regarding the behavioral aspect ... .and correct me if I have this wrong please.

The way I understand this, all narcissists are sociopaths with added "parameters" related to ego. This would mean a frontal lobe shut down / inability to feel empathy for others.

My question is: Is it possible for this disorder to blink in and out if it isn't "full blown" narcissism, just a frontal lobe glitch, or is it all part of the "using" game? There were aspects of her personality that seemed to show genuine "caring" - but then - the short circuit would happen, and she was "someone else." On a couple of occasions I dropped the line "Who the hell are you?"

I realize that these people can use the caring aspect to get what they want, and it's all a show - but doesn't self awareness have to be involved? She seemed to be on some level "aware" because she repeated a couple of lines quite a few times: "I DON'T USE PEOPLE!" - and - "Sometimes I feel like a sociopath."

She seemed to know SOMETHING was going on ... .but "knowing" wasn't totally there yet.

There were times, as I said, where the emotional part seemed genuine, even her reactions to "cute" stuff like puppies and babies. There was always a heart felt "awww" when she saw them, and it was real as far as I'm concerned.

So, is this a possible frontal lobe  / emotional glitch that turns on and off? Or is it - something else?

Whoa.  Uhm.

What a sociopath is is not something that has really been defined.  

I think you might have psychopaths in mind which are something different from a pwBPD.  

On the dsm they have the listing of antisocial personality disorder (aspd). All psychopaths are aspd not all aspd are psychopaths.

If you want to learn about psychopaths look up Robert hare he wrote a couple books on them and created the test to identify them.  

Now pwBPD are something else there are some books in the site recommended book section worth checking out. You might like BPD dymystified.

[ShadowIntheNight]

If my uBPDexgf had displayed the blatant egoism she had in the final year of our relationship we would have never ever gotten together. The way she acted you would have thought she was the princess of Bel Air or something. And the ego made no sense. All she was was a T in a mid sized town in the southwest. It's not like any of you have ever heard of her! At least early on she had some humility.

I on the other hand was quite successful, retired from my own company at 43 (when she and I first met 10 yrs ago), had been invited to meet important politicians, etc. A month or so before she began replacing me (unbeknownst to me at the time). I wondered where my old self had gone. I felt as if I couldn't do anything, that nothing ever worked for me, and no wonder she seemed to hate me.

You'd think after 9.5 yrs a person would be lifting you up. It wasn't until I found this site and read about this disorder that I began to get an understanding of what may have happened to both of us. It's a struggle, like learning to walk again, but I am rebuilding my confidence in my self.

[OC]

Well THAT answers every question I ever had about her -   Thank you.

Here's one more question regarding the behavioral aspect ... .and correct me if I have this wrong please.

The way I understand this, all narcissists are sociopaths with added "parameters" related to ego. This would mean a frontal lobe shut down / inability to feel empathy for others.

My question is: Is it possible for this disorder to blink in and out if it isn't "full blown" narcissism, just a frontal lobe glitch, or is it all part of the "using" game? There were aspects of her personality that seemed to show genuine "caring" - but then - the short circuit would happen, and she was "someone else." On a couple of occasions I dropped the line "Who the hell are you?"

I realize that these people can use the caring aspect to get what they want, and it's all a show - but doesn't self awareness have to be involved? She seemed to be on some level "aware" because she repeated a couple of lines quite a few times: "I DON'T USE PEOPLE!" - and - "Sometimes I feel like a sociopath."

She seemed to know SOMETHING was going on ... .but "knowing" wasn't totally there yet.

There were times, as I said, where the emotional part seemed genuine, even her reactions to "cute" stuff like puppies and babies. There was always a heart felt "awww" when she saw them, and it was real as far as I'm concerned.

So, is this a possible frontal lobe  / emotional glitch that turns on and off? Or is it - something else?

Whoa.  Uhm.

What a sociopath is is not something that has really been defined.  

I think you might have psychopaths in mind which are something different from a pwBPD.  

On the dsm they have the listing of antisocial personality disorder (aspd). All psychopaths are aspd not all aspd are psychopaths.

If you want to learn about psychopaths look up Robert hare he wrote a couple books on them and created the test to identify them.  

Now pwBPD are something else there are some books in the site recommended book section worth checking out. You might like BPD dymystified.

The terms sociopath and psychopath point to the same person / same base problem - frontal lobe glitch / they literally can't see you as a person, it's more like they see you as a cardboard cutout.

If you ever played one of those "one player" shoot the bad guys games like Quake, that's about the picture. You have no empathy for the generated characters, they aren't real.

The way I understand this, narcissists are sociopaths with an added "ego" problem. They simply "don't care about you" because they can't. Which is why you get treated like you are not even there.

Based on one post here I just read, my mother may have been a BPD person too. I would definitely say narcissist, and she didn't care at all what she did to me. She literally controlled the entire family, and physically and mentally abused me for YEARS. She wanted me to be what she wanted me to be, but I had other ideas - and got hell back for having my own mind.

I'm trying to find out the parameters of this frontal lobe problem, as I just had a semi-relationship with a BPD woman. She definitely shows emotional connections, but then she's a completely non-caring "BLEEP."

Can this switch on and off is some cases?

[Blimblam]

Well THAT answers every question I ever had about her -   Thank you.

Here's one more question regarding the behavioral aspect ... .and correct me if I have this wrong please.

The way I understand this, all narcissists are sociopaths with added "parameters" related to ego. This would mean a frontal lobe shut down / inability to feel empathy for others.

My question is: Is it possible for this disorder to blink in and out if it isn't "full blown" narcissism, just a frontal lobe glitch, or is it all part of the "using" game? There were aspects of her personality that seemed to show genuine "caring" - but then - the short circuit would happen, and she was "someone else." On a couple of occasions I dropped the line "Who the hell are you?"

I realize that these people can use the caring aspect to get what they want, and it's all a show - but doesn't self awareness have to be involved? She seemed to be on some level "aware" because she repeated a couple of lines quite a few times: "I DON'T USE PEOPLE!" - and - "Sometimes I feel like a sociopath."

She seemed to know SOMETHING was going on ... .but "knowing" wasn't totally there yet.

There were times, as I said, where the emotional part seemed genuine, even her reactions to "cute" stuff like puppies and babies. There was always a heart felt "awww" when she saw them, and it was real as far as I'm concerned.

So, is this a possible frontal lobe  / emotional glitch that turns on and off? Or is it - something else?

Whoa.  Uhm.

What a sociopath is is not something that has really been defined.  

I think you might have psychopaths in mind which are something different from a pwBPD.  

On the dsm they have the listing of antisocial personality disorder (aspd). All psychopaths are aspd not all aspd are psychopaths.

If you want to learn about psychopaths look up Robert hare he wrote a couple books on them and created the test to identify them.  

Now pwBPD are something else there are some books in the site recommended book section worth checking out. You might like BPD dymystified.

The terms sociopath and psychopath point to the same person / same base problem - frontal lobe glitch / they literally can't see you as a person, it's more like they see you as a cardboard cutout.

If you ever played one of those "one player" shoot the bad guys games like Quake, that's about the picture. You have no empathy for the generated characters, they aren't real.

The way I understand this, narcissists are sociopaths with an added "ego" problem. They simply "don't care about you" because they can't. Which is why you get treated like you are not even there.

Based on one post here I just read, my mother may have been a BPD person too. I would definitely say narcissist, and she didn't care at all what she did to me. She literally controlled the entire family, and physically and mentally abused me for YEARS. She wanted me to be what she wanted me to be, but I had other ideas - and got hell back for having my own mind.

I'm trying to find out the parameters of this frontal lobe problem, as I just had a semi-relationship with a BPD woman. She definitely shows emotional connections, but then she's a completely non-caring "BLEEP."

Can this switch on and off is some cases?

No narcissists are something else and They exist on a continuim from a "non" to full blown pd. in the book section is a book titled loving the self absorbed about narcisists and the spectrum they exist on. 

If you want to read a bit more clinical the search for the real self the personality disorders of our age.  By James masterson and if you can understand dense reading Heinz kohut wrote a book about npd also. I got a little out of that book I don't think i was ready for it. 

On a personal note I have talked to a couple psychopaths about 4 or 5 months back. One being a machevelian the other a narcisistic psychopath.  I didn't use the word psychopath but they pretty much acknowledged my pointing out their behaviors and thought it was quaint I notticed. They were conversing about tormenting people in a light hearted funny story kind of way. To such an extent that I almost wanted to laugh with them except I saw through his crap. Very charming.

Narcissism is something everyone possesses and is not necesarily unhealthy unless it keeps you from empathizing with the another.  Npds feel shame they feel fear.  Psychopaths do not feel fear not even fear of pain. 

But check out that loving the self absorbed, narcissm is a spectrum we all exist on.

Definitely educating yourself from books written by pros is extremely useful to help depersonalize and make sense of what the heck happened.

[OC]

Yeah this is going to take awhile ... .



Bockian states that "It is extremely unlikely that someone with a placid, passive, unengaged, aloof temperament would ever develop borderline personality disorder. To become labile and erratic demands that one have proclivities in that direction." (pg. 30)

He references a number of studies that show patients diagnosed with BPD had brains that tended to function differently to non-disordered subjects (pg. 32-33). The findings include reduced activity in the frontal lobes which relate to aggression and reduced or dormant activity in the prefrontal cortex on the right side (and several areas of the left side) of the brain relating to the regulation of impulsive behaviour. In addition one experiment found that the part of the brain that is critical for memory was "nearly 16% smaller in the borderline group".

www.echo.me.uk/BPD1.htm

[Blimblam]

Yeah this is going to take awhile ... .



Bockian states that "It is extremely unlikely that someone with a placid, passive, unengaged, aloof temperament would ever develop borderline personality disorder. To become labile and erratic demands that one have proclivities in that direction." (pg. 30)

He references a number of studies that show patients diagnosed with BPD had brains that tended to function differently to non-disordered subjects (pg. 32-33). The findings include reduced activity in the frontal lobes which relate to aggression and reduced or dormant activity in the prefrontal cortex on the right side (and several areas of the left side) of the brain relating to the regulation of impulsive behaviour. In addition one experiment found that the part of the brain that is critical for memory was "nearly 16% smaller in the borderline group".

www.echo.me.uk/BPD1.htm

Yeah pwBPD have different hardwiring in the cranular region. I think you might really like the BPD dymystified book if you are all into that aspect of things.

[borderpatrol]

I do think BPD and NPD co-exist and my ex was both. It was part of the Jeckle And Hyde I seen go from the hopeless victim to the demanding tyrant that was always lurking under the surface. She could be so giving at times and then a selfish, demanding, manipulating beast. Highs and lows like a winding country road through the mountains!

Walking on eggshells cause you never knew who was showing up at that very moment.

[OC]

Yeah this is going to take awhile ... .



Bockian states that "It is extremely unlikely that someone with a placid, passive, unengaged, aloof temperament would ever develop borderline personality disorder. To become labile and erratic demands that one have proclivities in that direction." (pg. 30)

He references a number of studies that show patients diagnosed with BPD had brains that tended to function differently to non-disordered subjects (pg. 32-33). The findings include reduced activity in the frontal lobes which relate to aggression and reduced or dormant activity in the prefrontal cortex on the right side (and several areas of the left side) of the brain relating to the regulation of impulsive behaviour. In addition one experiment found that the part of the brain that is critical for memory was "nearly 16% smaller in the borderline group".

www.echo.me.uk/BPD1.htm

Yeah pwBPD have different hardwiring in the cranular region. I think you might really like the BPD dymystified book if you are all into that aspect of things.

That will come ... .I need to build a foundation before jumping into books that might be loaded with terminology I have to look up continually 

www.sweetreliefworks.com/melissaschenkerblog/narcissist-borderline-or-sociopath-am-i-dealing-with-a-personality-disorder-part-5/

[Blimblam]

Yeah this is going to take awhile ... .



Bockian states that "It is extremely unlikely that someone with a placid, passive, unengaged, aloof temperament would ever develop borderline personality disorder. To become labile and erratic demands that one have proclivities in that direction." (pg. 30)

He references a number of studies that show patients diagnosed with BPD had brains that tended to function differently to non-disordered subjects (pg. 32-33). The findings include reduced activity in the frontal lobes which relate to aggression and reduced or dormant activity in the prefrontal cortex on the right side (and several areas of the left side) of the brain relating to the regulation of impulsive behaviour. In addition one experiment found that the part of the brain that is critical for memory was "nearly 16% smaller in the borderline group".

www.echo.me.uk/BPD1.htm

Yeah pwBPD have different hardwiring in the cranular region. I think you might really like the BPD dymystified book if you are all into that aspect of things.

That will come ... .I need to build a foundation before jumping into books that might be loaded with terminology I have to look up continually 

www.sweetreliefworks.com/melissaschenkerblog/narcissist-borderline-or-sociopath-am-i-dealing-with-a-personality-disorder-part-5/

It is a site recomended book it is not meant to be too technical. It is titled Borderline Personality Disorder Demysitfied. As in taking the mystery out of borderline personality disorder so you can understand it. I am pretty sure it was written by a medical doctor who had a family member with the disorder. I think that would be a good place for start understanding BPD. Ther is another site recomended book titled loving the self absorbed partner that describes Narcisissm that you might enjoy. If you really want to learn about psychopaths read the author Robert Hare he is a psychiatrist I believe and is pretty much the defenetive source on that subject.

[borderdude]

After looking at the replies... .


As for protection mecanisms, like manipulation, may I state that a BPD and a npd , can act alike seen from a 3ed person , but for the opposite reasons?

The weak BPD manipulate because it must protect the self.

The strong npd manipulate because it entitles to mantain the self.

[eyvindr]

Lots going on in this thread. Some of it's a little fuzzy, I think.

OC -- the bottomline, I think, is -- how will this additional knowledge about frontal lobe brain function help you in your relationships? Or are you just interested in it from a clinical, scientific perspective? (Because it is fascinating, I agree.)

BPD is a very complex disorder, one which the psychiatric community still struggles to understand. I think more and more is being learned, as more and more people suffering from BPD and their loved ones come forward seeking help and understanding. As we chip away at the stigma against all forms of mental illness, hopefully we'll be able to bring these extremely disruptive and life-defeating illnesses more to the forefront of research and treatment.

People with BPD tend to be characterized by very fluid or labile emotions. Their feelings about something can change quickly, and frequently do, and they seem to be either free from the need to maintain consistency of thought, or incapable of doing so. It can seem like they exist 100% in the moment and, as soon as this moment is gone, they live in another. Being around them you can start to feel like they expect you to understand that "Right now, this is how I feel about that, but now, I feel differently, and what I felt before is gone because now I feel this."

BPD routinely shows signs of being co-morbid with lots of other types of disorders, including but not limited to NPD, HPD, OCD, ADHD, bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety disorder -- the mix is pretty limitless. Not all people with BPD are narcissists, though they can display some narcissistic traits. Sometimes helps to remember that everyone is on a spectrum, and we all have bits of all of these things ourselves. But, to have a disorder or to be dx'd as suffering from mental illness, you have to display significant symptoms and behaviors over a period of time. And, face it -- we all have our moments! But that doesn't make all of us mentally ill.

If I recall correctly, the disorder got its name initially because people suffering from it displayed a lot of different behaviors in many directions -- almost like they were suffering from a little bit of two or more separate disorders. Even among experts, BPD is difficult to dx. Best to not try to get too clinical about it, as laypeople -- though I understand the temptation. I find that the more information I have, the better I'm able to convince myself that I'm making progress. Not necessarily true all the time... .

So -- how is this information helping us to either better relate with the pwBPD in our lives, or better heal from the effect of trying to sustain a relationship with someone suffering from the illness?

[peiper]

My exBPD was definitely both. I think the NPD was to compensate for her true lack of self, and also a feeling of entitlement due to her past.

[hurting300]

The disorders kick in at different times.

All BPD are narcissists.

Once you get in a relationship with them the narc side usually becomes more apparent as they are drawing N supply from you.  This is why they suddenly turn passive agressive and think they are s*** hot where when you first meet them and they haven't drained enough supply from you yet they are self depreciating.

Mine would be all "a guy like you would never want me" etc etc.  To be honest she was right at tge start but alas the idealisation prooved too much to resist. When I asked her to be my girlfriend she almost fainted and was crying and thanking me etc.

A few months later she had soul sucked me and I was the one (falsely) beliving that she was too good for me

wow man, our stories are so much alike. My ex said on our first date (please don't friend zone ME) I said wow I'm not dang your beautiful. Yeah... .Should have friend zoned her

[borderdude]

From my simplistic view she did cross of some boxes in the npd,  because she was unable to exercise empathy, she was only occupied with her self,but i do not thinks she was able to perform any, because of her disorder. Does this makes her having a npd, do not think so, none of this was done in a premeditated way.

[Ripped Heart]

I was married to a diagnosed pwBPD/NPD and it was the most extreme and nastiest experience of my life. For once, I could honestly say I feared for my life.

For those who know from my previous posts about my military career. I would rather face a village full of Taliban fighters than ever face her again. At least with the Taliban, you knew where you stood.

The NPD, controlling, aggressive to the point of physical, mental, emotional and verbal abuse and outright nasty was her more dominant side. However, you turn on that and the BPD side drew you back in. It was like a switch, she would go from severe entitlement, that everybody was beneath her, that she would destroy anyone who even so much as looked at her the wrong way, that I should be proud I have a gorgeous wife, to critical of everybody else, that she was far more intelligent than everybody to this quiet, vulnerable child, that nobody understood and just wanted to be loved.

I saw my much more of the NPD but her therapist said she was both and that's why she refused to see her. He said the BPD is hard enough to work with on it's own and would take years of retraining, the NPD cuts out any chance of her getting help because she will never recognise her own issues.

[OC]

Lots going on in this thread. Some of it's a little fuzzy, I think.

OC -- the bottomline, I think, is -- how will this additional knowledge about frontal lobe brain function help you in your relationships? Or are you just interested in it from a clinical, scientific perspective? (Because it is fascinating, I agree.)

Sorry it so long to reply ... .

This is just the way my head works. When I run into something I don't understand, and it's important, I'll rip it apart for as long as it takes to "get it." Most of this runs in the background and every now and then a question or picture pops up I need more info on and I look stuff up.

Right now the focus is on myself with regard to the damage done to me by my mother, and how said damage has affected what I "see" regarding woman when I "look at them." It's odd ... .I'm not "attracted to" what would be "normal" women. I treat them on a totally cognitive scale (no emotional picture at all), and interest in them is based on how they think - and it really doesn't go beyond "friends."

However, you show me a woman in "pain" and every light on my empathy board goes on. When the BPD woman popped up, I was like - pain ... .I get it ... .I see you. No pain? I don't get it.

This was what the BPD woman tapped into in the beginning ... ."He sees me - he understands." But later, it was like an entirely different personality popped up, and I was like - "Who the hell are you?"

I dunno ... .it seems when the opposite sex parent does not teach the child what love and caring is, the short circuit in the mind of the child as they grow up can be devastating. I can't "see" women it seems, unless they are suffering from - "emotional trauma." No trauma? It's a blank slate ... .I don't know what I'm looking at.

[jhkbuzz]

Well THAT answers every question I ever had about her -   Thank you.

Here's one more question regarding the behavioral aspect ... .and correct me if I have this wrong please.

The way I understand this, all narcissists are sociopaths with added "parameters" related to ego. This would mean a frontal lobe shut down / inability to feel empathy for others.

My question is: Is it possible for this disorder to blink in and out if it isn't "full blown" narcissism, just a frontal lobe glitch, or is it all part of the "using" game? There were aspects of her personality that seemed to show genuine "caring" - but then - the short circuit would happen, and she was "someone else." On a couple of occasions I dropped the line "Who the hell are you?"

I realize that these people can use the caring aspect to get what they want, and it's all a show - but doesn't self awareness have to be involved? She seemed to be on some level "aware" because she repeated a couple of lines quite a few times: "I DON'T USE PEOPLE!" - and - "Sometimes I feel like a sociopath."

She seemed to know SOMETHING was going on ... .but "knowing" wasn't totally there yet.

There were times, as I said, where the emotional part seemed genuine, even her reactions to "cute" stuff like puppies and babies. There was always a heart felt "awww" when she saw them, and it was real as far as I'm concerned.

So, is this a possible frontal lobe  / emotional glitch that turns on and off? Or is it - something else?

A couple of things:

• All of us have a healthy little dose of narcissism... .this is perfectly normal.



• Some pwBPD are comorbid, some are not.  Not all pwBPD are concurrently NPD.



• A lack of empathy is a trait of NPD, not BPD.



• pwBPD do care... .it's not a show. They have a disorder of emotional dysregulation, which leads them to act in ways that cause chaos and pain for those around them - but it's typically done to self soothe unmanageable emotions - not specifically to cause pain.



• From user 2010:  "BPD isn’t about attention but rather about identity - the differences between narcissism (which is a grandiose ego) and Borderline, which is a fragile almost non-existent self-concept, are entirely different."

This was what the BPD woman tapped into in the beginning ... ."He sees me - he understands." But later, it was like an entirely different personality popped up, and I was like - "Who the hell are you?"

This was one of the most head spinning experiences for me as well.  Reading about schema therapy and the different emotional "modes" that all people operate from was especially enlightening for me.

"Schema modes are the moment-to-moment emotional states and coping responses that we all experience.  Often our schema modes are triggered by life situations that we are oversensitive to (our "emotional buttons".  

At any given point in time, some of our schemas, coping responses, and emotional states are inactive, or dormant, while others have become activated by life events and predominate our current mood and behavior. The predominant state that we are in at a given point in time is called our schema mode. All of us flip from mode to mode over time."

A list of the schema modes:  www.schematherapy.com/id72.htm

I can recognize about 5 modes that my exBPDgf would flip in and out of - all maladaptive.  I have no idea if she ever spent much time in "healthy adult" mode.

[jhkbuzz]

The disorders kick in at different times.

All BPD are narcissists.

Once you get in a relationship with them the narc side usually becomes more apparent as they are drawing N supply from you.  This is why they suddenly turn passive agressive and think they are s*** hot where when you first meet them and they haven't drained enough supply from you yet they are self depreciating.

Mine would be all "a guy like you would never want me" etc etc.  To be honest she was right at tge start but alas the idealisation prooved too much to resist. When I asked her to be my girlfriend she almost fainted and was crying and thanking me etc.

A few months later she had soul sucked me and I was the one (falsely) beliving that she was too good for me

No... .some BPD may also have NPD, but that's not always the case. These PD's are not always comorbid.

[eyvindr]

OC --

Same here --

This is just the way my head works. When I run into something I don't understand, and it's important, I'll rip it apart for as long as it takes to "get it." Most of this runs in the background and every now and then a question or picture pops up I need more info on and I look stuff up.

But this:

Right now the focus is on myself with regard to the damage done to me by my mother, and how said damage has affected what I "see" regarding woman when I "look at them." It's odd ... .I'm not "attracted to" what would be "normal" women. I treat them on a totally cognitive scale (no emotional picture at all), and interest in them is based on how they think - and it really doesn't go beyond "friends."

However, you show me a woman in "pain" and every light on my empathy board goes on. When the BPD woman popped up, I was like - pain ... .I get it ... .I see you. No pain? I don't get it.

WOW. That is so much of my problem. I don't find them interesting, or attractive, unless their pain lights up my empathy board. And I DON'T GET IT, EITHER! What is the deal with this?

[OC]

OC --

Same here --

This is just the way my head works. When I run into something I don't understand, and it's important, I'll rip it apart for as long as it takes to "get it." Most of this runs in the background and every now and then a question or picture pops up I need more info on and I look stuff up.

But this:

Right now the focus is on myself with regard to the damage done to me by my mother, and how said damage has affected what I "see" regarding woman when I "look at them." It's odd ... .I'm not "attracted to" what would be "normal" women. I treat them on a totally cognitive scale (no emotional picture at all), and interest in them is based on how they think - and it really doesn't go beyond "friends."

However, you show me a woman in "pain" and every light on my empathy board goes on. When the BPD woman popped up, I was like - pain ... .I get it ... .I see you. No pain? I don't get it.

WOW. That is so much of my problem. I don't find them interesting, or attractive, unless their pain lights up my empathy board. And I DON'T GET IT, EITHER! What is the deal with this?

I think the simplest explanation is that you "see" what you "know" via experience  ... .what you were raised with. Add to this the "empathy" factor, and the "female" factor and you want to rush in and help because you KNOW what the pain is like.

I do not feel this way for men, although I will try to help if need be ... .to me this means the "attraction factor" (male / female) has been altered due to what I went through via "mommy" ... .who should have been "loving" and "caring" - but she was violent and emotionally "dead."

It's "kind of like" this picture ... .we tend to see sociopaths as "bad" ... .mmm - not always true. Dr James Fallon is a brain scientist, and had NO CLUE he was a sociopath. He wasn't "bad" - he was a scientist ... .and he had a really good upbringing. His friends knew ... .and he was told "we always knew you were kind of a sociopath" ... .but he wasn't "bad" seemingly because of the way he was raised - "mommy" was loving. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I12H7khht7o

It's the "raising from a child" aspect that seems to be key. In my case, all I ever knew was pain ... .so today, 60 years later, all I vividly "see" (regarding women) is pain. If you are "normal" - I don't know what I'm looking at ... .there's no "connection." I'm guessing that if my mother was loving and caring and huggy, I would see THAT when I looked at a woman - but I don't know what that's like.

As far as the BPD woman, when I held her - I meant it ... .it was an "I get it" - "it's OK" picture, and she needed that based on her reactions. Unfortunately, her "problem" went into overdrive and I was suddenly rejected and replaced. It's taken me two weeks to straighten this mess out in my head, and I'm guessing in another two weeks I'll have the data and the wounds will be sealed off and the pain terminated completely - live and learn.

If anything, this has opened up a whole new picture regarding why "I don't see NORMAL women" ... .why there is "no connection." I was asked by her friend yesterday (who also is BPD and bipolar) if any of the picture with her friend was "physical" ... .I told her no - not once - EVER! It was all about the "the person" from beginning to end.

I dunno ... .welcome to planet earth - are we having fun yet?