xw petitioning to relocate with children

[takingandsending]

As feared and suspected, my STBxw has announced her intention to relocate out of state with the children ... .after agreeing to 50/50 custody 2.5 weeks previously.

She is claiming health reasons as primary cause, i.e. her mental and physical health would improve in warmer, drier climate.

I don't believe she can successfully petition, with the exception that she has primary custody (64/36) currently if courts only consider number of overnights. Custody time is one of the larger criteria for relocation in my state, although not the only factor. She fails to meet all the others, in fact worsens children's situation in some like moving children away from extended family.

I meet with my L tomorrow and am going to push toward binding arbitration as the collaborative team has already agreed by consensus that I should have primary custody until xw receives counseling treatment.

I am also contacting attorneys to go to court - have recommendations from my T and will get from my L for HCP family law practitioner.

I offered xw to support relocation if S12 and S6 remain with me during school year and 2 weeks after school ends and 2 weeks before school starts. All school breaks with her except Christmas/Thanksgiving holidays to alternate.

This is exhausting.

[livednlearned]

She is claiming health reasons as primary cause, i.e. her mental and physical health would improve in warmer, drier climate.

Wow. That's not even attempting to take the kids into consideration.

I don't believe she can successfully petition, with the exception that she has primary custody (64/36) currently if courts only consider number of overnights. Custody time is one of the larger criteria for relocation in my state, although not the only factor. She fails to meet all the others, in fact worsens children's situation in some like moving children away from extended family.

I meet with my L tomorrow and am going to push toward binding arbitration as the collaborative team has already agreed by consensus that I should have primary custody until xw receives counseling treatment.

I am also contacting attorneys to go to court - have recommendations from my T and will get from my L for HCP family law practitioner.

I offered xw to support relocation if S12 and S6 remain with me during school year and 2 weeks after school ends and 2 weeks before school starts. All school breaks with her except Christmas/Thanksgiving holidays to alternate.

This is exhausting.

It really is exhausting.

It sounds like you are responding with the right levels of assertiveness so you can leave the collaborative process behind?

[ForeverDad]

Ask your lawyer whether your state requires a year or two between disputed changes in parenting orders.  Two weeks after a settlement or order change and she wants a drastic change?  Your lawyer will (should) say the court will see that as not allowing the new order time to settle in and let time test how it works.  At the least she isn't trying to follow the new order in "good faith".  Or you could state her mental state is not stable and this change request at the beginning of a new order makes that apparent.

With this new order did you increase your parenting time?  Then your response could include that she is trying to sabotage your newly-ordered increased parenting time by moving the kids away from you.

Here's a thought.  Yes it may be ignored.  Maybe even garner a half smile from your lawyer and the judge.  But part of your response is that you could state you are not opposed to her moving, she as an adult is welcome to, but the children stay here.  (The point is you're not trying to control her life, that was an early claim by my ex's lawyer in court.)

Is where she wants to move within driving distance or would the only practical option be airline flights?

If the worst happens and the court agrees with her motion to quickly move away with the kids, then you need to secure as much parenting time as possible.  For example... .

• You should get the major school holidays at the least, Winter Break and Spring Break, maybe even alternate Thanksgiving long weekends.  Yes, you probably will only get alternate Dec 25 but try to get the rest every year.  Depending on her income level, you may be required to foot the airline expenses.
• As for summers, you ought to get a big chunk of summers, aim for two full months.  Most schools have about 11 weeks between school years.  If you seek 8 weeks then that leaves her with two weeks for vacations and and a week before school starts so they can be ready for the first day of school.  Beware if the order is written vague enough to let her break your 8 weeks into smaller chunks.
• In addition the order should allow you to have weekend visits with your kids, from Friday after school to Monday before school.  If Monday is a holiday and it is your holiday then you would return then Monday PM or to school on Tuesday.

However, my hope is your lawyer will be able to respond well to the motion and keep the kids local so the brand new order isn't thrown into the garbage disposal.

[takingandsending]

lnl - I meet with my collaborative lawyer tomorrow and will decide if collaborative process has any options left.

ForeverDad - our agreements aren't court orders. They are agreements made in collaborative processes that have yet to be turned into court orders because they have never been finalized. So not much leverage on my side. All we really have is precedent of custody we have followed to date ... .36/64 although my actual hours of time with boys is higher than xw's.

I did state to mediator that I was happy to support relocation provided kids remain here.

I am struggling this evening. The whole thing - even expected - leaves me feeling sick. I can't imagine choosing for the kids that they should have no access to their mother for months at a time. It would hurt them. Yet, she has made that choice for them with respect to me. It's like, she is sick in so many small ways, but every once in a while, reveals just how sick she is in a very large way. It still hurts. Thought I was past being hurt by her but her disregard for the kids and, through the kids, me still gets me.

[takingandsending]

Right now, with the petition for divorce filed in the court, we are both under RO to not relocate kids until the petition is complete.

So, I don't think she can go anywhere until we finalize. It's just one more thing to fight. She has an open or recently closed CPS case against her that was result of S12's counselor initiating a mandatory report when xw told her she heard a voice in her head telling her to crash the car with S12 in it into a building wall. She told the counselor that she knew it was S12's anger infiltrating her thoughts. An example of the large sickness.

If/when I go litigious, the CPS case will be brought up. I have not made it a point in discussion during collaborative although the professional team knows about it. It's why they feel I should have primary custody.

[livednlearned]

I am struggling this evening. The whole thing - even expected - leaves me feeling sick.

I'm so sorry you're going through this

I wonder if what you're feeling is grief? It took me a while to find words for the feelings I had about ex's actions when he had such disregard for S16. The very person S16 desperately loved was the same person hacking and chipping away at his soul. It was like being in a bad dream, powerless to stop someone I loved from being hurt while people watched.

There is a lot about the grief we feel leaving a relationship, but less about the kind of grief a parent feels when our children are hurt. Before my divorce, I had never felt that way before, a mixture of dread, love, and deep sadness for S16. Even while in the relationship, I didn't have enough emotional health to see the depth of everything, the grief came when things dragged on and the small sicknesses, as you called them, kept piling up.

The chronic court process made it hard to deal with the grief because I felt like above all, I had to keep it together. I hope you get a chance at some point to sit with those feelings and let them heal 

LnL

[takingandsending]

I am definitely feeling grief but hadn't connected to it being parental grief that the kids are being hurt. There's no win for my sons in this situation, which is hard for me to accept. And it makes me very angry and very sad.

I am setting up my interview with the lawyer my T recommended for next week. Ideas on specific questions I should ask him? He is only more recently practicing family law, but he comes from criminal law practice and has a lot of experience both arguing cases in court and brokering deals. And I am told by T that he is even keeled. I will definitely ask about his experience in HCP cases and what strategy he advises for my case.

Also, I think my xw is motivated a lot by financial worry. After sale of house and division of property, my thought is that she wants to move somewhere warmer, drier and with a lower cost of living. She is possibly thinking this will give her more security for living off maintenance and child support and with whatever she earns from her life coaching consulting business (truth is stranger than fiction, folks). I am guessing this because she has dropped the talk of Hawaii and is mentioning Arizona or New Mexico, both considerably cheaper than the Pacific Northwest.

I am wondering if I offered her a longer maintenance if it is a leverage chip that I can play. I don't really want to offer that, but I almost wonder if I could buy her off if she leaves the kids with me.

[livednlearned]

I am wondering if I offered her a longer maintenance if it is a leverage chip that I can play. I don't really want to offer that, but I almost wonder if I could buy her off if she leaves the kids with me.

One problem is that nothing prevents her from filing later on to modify the custody arrangement.

My L said for lawyers, it is not ethical to discuss support and visitation together, which means you cannot go into court and say Hey, we had a deal.

Also, one of the most important things my ex taught me (as a former trial attorney) is to never negotiate with yourself. Sometimes your leverage is simply your ability to remain consistent and stick to convictions about what is best for the kids, and you.

[takingandsending]

It definitely doesn't feel right or ethical. Best to leave that stone not turned for now.

And I am certain she would report any attempt, no matter how it was presented, as an attempt to buy her off (which it would be in part). Even when I have agreed or offered things that she has requested, she paints it as attempts to intimidate or manipulate, which is the wonderful projection that we all know and love so well.

Heading to meeting in 20 minutes with collaborative L. Will post update later.

[Sunfl0wer]

Not sure if this helps at all... .
Yet when negotiating relocation during a mediation. (My now ex and his exW)
We did discuss monetary stuff.
We were granting the relocation because the child got so alienated and was sabotaging things with us intentionally and getting herself committed inpatient as a way to get to mom.  Her therapist said it was best to give her to mom.  Anyway... .that part is long and irrelevant... .

Well so while we were negotiating giving the child back to her.  (Mom left kids in our care and she relocated without the child but felt we stole the child from her). We negotiated that Dad was to pay no child support.  Reason we gave was he was going to use all the monies from the child support to travel to Mom’s state of residence.  We calculated hotel costs, gas, plane, etc and had a figure higher than the child support so we proposed that in order to have the least impact of loss of damaging the bond between dad and child, dad therefore needed to not pay child support in order to afford to maintain his relationship with the child... .via traveling to Mom’s state.  We wrote it up that it was to be permanently deferred.  At the time, she had no employment on the books, so was calculating child support based on minimum wage.  We realize that if she actually had a job making money, then lost it, she could claim that her financial circumstances were changed, thus requiring more money than zero to support the child.  Yet since she was making no money at the time of our agreement, we figured we were pretty strong to not have her contest it later.

[takingandsending]

Sunfl0wer,

That does help. After speaking to my L yesterday (for 3 hours! ), he states something similar. Namely that the costs of airfare for kids during breaks and so forth is considered in child support or maintenance costs. Since my xw is worried about money, it will affect her bottom line. He further stated that things I support now, like private school for sons, would likely go by the wayside with the extra costs associated from the move.

Mostly, we talked about how the hell we went from the collaborative team believing that I should have primary custody at the end of October to reacting to a relocation request where she would have custody of the boys except for breaks and summer months for me. We agreed that no more divorce coach sessions should be scheduled - only meetings with both L's involved and that we were not going to talk about relocation until we dealt with xw's challenges with S12.

My L identified my most immediate threat/cause for concern: namely, there is no court ordered parent plan on file, so per my state's statute, she could relocate as custodial parent without requirement to notify me. BUT, while there is no court ordered parent plan on file, there is likewise no recognition of her as custodial parent on file.

My options: 1) drop out of collaborative and hire aggressive family law attorney to file motion for temporary order declaring me as custodial parent on account of xw's CPS case. 2) push for 4 way meeting in collaborative (where I have the backing of the team) to demand 50/50 custody and me designated as custodial parent.

Her possible end around: drop out of collaborative and file motion for temporary order declaring herself as custodial parent based on being stay at home mom for S6 and S12 until time of separation where she still has retained 64% custodial time. Then petition for relocation without need to notify me or giving me a chance to refuse/rebut.

I am calling a lawyer for a second opinion today.

[livednlearned]

Does everything that took place in the collaborative process get sealed up?

[ForeverDad]

And there's the concern that the older the CPS case is on stbEx, the less impact or weight it will have on the court should custody be contested.  Are there terms in the case that are still in effect?  I recall when I was in my court recounting my then-stbEx's actions, the magistrate stopped me when I got to six months back.  Others too have noted six months as marking when incidents get viewed as less actionable or 'stale'.  As in, "Yes that's how she was then but that doesn't indicate how she is now."  This is not to say court will ignore it, but the risk is there.

As your lawyer advised, if you do exit collaborative, then seek at least 50/50.  (Courts sometimes seem to 'split the difference' between parents' demands.  If she seeks majority and you seek equal, do you see how that puts you at risk?  It's okay to seek majority time.  Really!  And if you seek majority but walk out with equal as the fallback position, it's still a win.)  If you continue a stance that 60% or more time in her favor is okay for the kids then the court will conclude you're okay with her being majority time parent and that there aren't large concerns about her behaviors.

[takingandsending]

lnl - yes. collaborative does not carry over hence the risk.

ForeverDad - I've been thinking about the staleness of the CPS case. It was opened in mid July. It was still open in late October. I don't know if it is still open now. I wondered if it is still actionable. It still bears great weight in the collaborative team, but might not in court.

What you both raised are two significant things I have to consider when deciding to drop out.

I understand what ForeverDad is saying in seeking more than 50% time. Lnl has asked the same thing, as have others. I am trying to think through my own emotions and consider what the kids need right now. I am not certain it would be good for either of them to not see mom or dad for extended periods. Despite all the crap, we have mostly kept the kids lives smooth. I am still trying to look out for how to avoid harm to them, if I can. Not sure I can.

[ForeverDad]

Is the ex abusive to the kids?
Is ex a good mother?

You can answer No to both questions.  It's okay to answer No to both.  Why?  Most of us here are feeling people and want to be fair, part of the reason how and why we got stuck where we are too.  That we have concerns about the other's parenting is evidence that the other parent should not be in control.  But we need to caution our inborn sense of being fair with the practical need to protect our children from poor influences and environments.

Trying to be fair does not work well in courts.  Court doesn't pay much attention to real fairness and your ex-spouses don't even try to be fair.  (They may try to guilt us claiming we're not fair but it isn't reciprocated consistently.)  Whether the ex is abusive is typically a court litmus test to determine if something is 'actionable'.  Well, you need to be concerned with more than that.  Is the ex stable?  relatively consistent in parenting?  able to share and reciprocate when you need trades or adjustments to the schedule?  refrain from blaming and alienating attempts?  Etc.

So you can ask for majority time and other requests because it is best for your parenting and parenting overall.  Abusive or not is not the sole determining factor for you, even if court leans toward that default pattern.  You are not being mean to seek majority time.  Besides, your lawyer can always drop the majority time request to equal time if the court is unwilling to go there, as long as you get some sort of Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.

[kells76]

Hi TaS;

I think FD makes a good point. Here's another way to think about it: Which of you two parents would be more likely to offer "extra" time to the other parent, and follow through? What I'm getting at is this: for example, you (hypothetically) could legally have 100% of the time with the kids. That would not STOP you from offering Mom time with the kids. It would just give you legal backup to determine "Is this a good weekend for the kids to be with Mom, based on factors X, Y, and Z?"

You know You the best. And you have a lot of experience with your kids' mom. Which of you, if one of you got 100% time with the kids, would reach out to the other parent and arrange for the kids to have time with that parent?

This is just a thought experiment, but maybe it can help you think about how asking for majority time with the kids doesn't make you selfish or lock you into kicking Mom out of their lives.

[Sunfl0wer]

Had another thought that may be useful.

I recall the judge making his ruling. (Backing up to before the mediation... .when mom lost her petition to relocate) He listed reasons for his decision to not grant mom relocation with the child.  The biggest thing he saw was that mom had a history of not fostering a relationship between the child and dad.  (She even communicated in the court room as if she owned the child like property and was entitled to certain things.) Judge stated that he felt if the child was with dad, he would in fact foster a positive relationship with mom and the child would have maximum benefit and ease of relationship with both parents.  Yet he clearly stated that if child was with mom, he did not feel mom would foster the relationship with dad and her behavior thus far showed history of denying access, avoiding phone calls, etc, therefore he would not allow the relocation.  Mom proved a history of not following the current parenting plan the way she should have.

Mom proposed that she herself was happier in a new state, therefore child would benefit... and that the child would be devastated to not have mom in her life. (Mom was oretty much saying that since she is leaving state anyway, the child will suffer a loss with mom moving away.  Seemed a bit like a threat... .that child will suffer harm if we all do not support her leaving state.)  She also claimed the schools were better, etc.  Judge said that had no bearing and there was no way for him to make a decision based on her “supposing” the child would fair better in the new state.

I think our judge was fair.

Just rambling because had I grasped what the judge was looking for... .it would have helped us be comfier.  Yet obviously, every judge rules the way they rule and not every case is same anyway.

[takingandsending]

Met yesterday with litigation L for second opinion. She was smart, experienced with HCP cases, and knew state and county reactions to relocation requests very well. She believes xw has not thus far presented adequate cause for relocation to be granted. Because of the petition for divorce RO on both of us, relocation cannot be accomplished until divorce decree is entered with court, so I am protected there.

She did recommend dropping collaborative and working with competent, disciplined family law L to initiate motion filing temp parent plan proposing primary custody with me. She agreed that CPS case is stale, but that I can use it to demonstrate pattern of behaviors from xw indicating parental instability, along with xw e-mail proposing splitting children up, texts of xw expressing troubles with S12. Google calendars I have kept showing me with 43% custody are acceptable to court. She indicated by filing that while I may not initially get primary custody, I would at least likely get court ordered custody reflecting what calendars reflect is currently in place.

I will meet in 6 way meeting with collaborative team next Friday. If there is no movement toward filing a TPP with me as custodial parent, I am dropping out and hiring litigious L. I did get referrals. Unfortunately, this L is not available to take case (unless her current large case settles next week in mediation).

[DaddyBear77]

Hey takingandsending, in your last update you mentioned you were meeting one more time with the collaborative team on Friday.

Did that meeting take place? How did it go? Were you able to find another L for litigation if you need to go there?

[takingandsending]

Meeting took place. For now, within collaborative, we agreed no relocation and 50% custody. We agreed on division of property. Parent plan and division of property agreed upon are being drafted for review and signature. I need to present a maintenance/support proposal with my L to xw and her L.

Basically, I agreed to pay additional stipend over 3-4 winter months for her to take care of her perceived needs. She agreed to remove discussion of relocation which would have forced us out of collaborative process. I am concerned we will get stuck on the dollar amounts, but we are closer to being done. Unless she changes her mind which is always a real possibility.

I have decided that if she backs out again, I will hire the attorney that I met with to discuss my case.

[flourdust]

Sounds promising! I'll keep my fingers crossed that she stays stable long enough to conclude the deal.

[takingandsending]

Thanks. It's anybody's guess.