Balancing your most attainable outcome vs. what's best for the kids

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

We're nowhere near settling our case, but I'm curious to hear about what you all have experienced. From the outside looking in, it seems like most courts view a 50/50 parenting time split as the best outcome a dad can get unless the mom has a pattern of very disturbing behavior. Most of us here have/had spouses with BPD traits at the very least, if not fully BPD. I realize that some parents with BPD never show their ugly side with the child, but that isn't true with my stbEX - she definitely does show it. I'm not an expert on BPD by any means, but based on everything I have read and my own common sense, I feel sorry for any child that's raised by a BPD parent.

That being said, I also realize that the legal system isn't set up to completely remove a BPD parent from the child's life unless the behavior is off the charts bad. Especially as the dad, it feels like the system is stacked against me. So if I swing for more than 50/50 and don't get it, there's a real chance that I could end up with less than 50/50. On the other hand, settling for 50/50 may feel like a win for me in the eyes of the court, but it would feel like a loss to me for my child. For those of you who have ultimately reached a settlement in your custody disputes, what was your thought process?

[alleyesonme]

We're nowhere near settling our case, but I'm curious to hear about what you all have experienced. From the outside looking in, it seems like most courts view a 50/50 parenting time split as the best outcome a dad can get unless the mom has a pattern of very disturbing behavior. Most of us here have/had spouses with BPD traits at the very least, if not fully BPD. I realize that some parents with BPD never show their ugly side with the child, but that isn't true with my stbEX - she definitely does show it. I'm not an expert on BPD by any means, but based on everything I have read and my own common sense, I feel sorry for any child that's raised by a BPD parent.

That being said, I also realize that the legal system isn't set up to completely remove a BPD parent from the child's life unless the behavior is off the charts bad. Especially as the dad, it feels like the system is stacked against me. So if I swing for more than 50/50 and don't get it, there's a real chance that I could end up with less than 50/50. On the other hand, settling for 50/50 may feel like a win for me in the eyes of the court, but it would feel like a loss to me for my child. For those of you who have ultimately reached a settlement in your custody disputes, what was your thought process?

[Meandmytwins]

I’m not sure there is a right vs wrong set of actions.  In my situation, I had no confidence that despite my exes documented poor behavior that I would have a favorable outcome (ie get full custody).  My uncle is an ex family judge, and his wife a mediator.  Both of them explained that parenting is a fundamental right and you really have to clearly prove the kids are in danger.  My kids are raised in an upscale community and although I see neglect, it’s unlikely that the courts would agree. 

In addition, divorce is expensive, and I personally lost a good chunk.  I was not willing to jeopardize financial stability without a much stronger chance of success. 

Fast forward to today, I’m divorced, my uBPD ex wife is struggling, my kids are doing pretty well but struggling with her. 
They usually don’t want to transition to her house (we have joint custody and a 2:2:5 schedule) and I can tell they want to transition to me full time. 

The school recognizes neglect when the kids are with their mom.  I have 2 years of e-mails all documenting all of the issues that have come up in Our Family Wizard.  It will be crystal clear to anyone that she lies, tries to deflect, neglects responsibility etc.  in other words, I believe I am building a much stronger case and ready to make a move when it becomes clear the timing is right. 

In my opinion, unless you have significant resources and enough documented instances of neglect that directly put your child in harms way, I believe you are doing the right thing. 

I would make sure that transitions occur away from the school whenever possible, that parent scheduling is crystal clear including vacation schedule etc and that you mandate communication and scheduling is done through a tool like OFW.
Can’t stress that enough. 

[alleyesonme]

I’m not sure there is a right vs wrong set of actions.  In my situation, I had no confidence that despite my exes documented poor behavior that I would have a favorable outcome (ie get full custody).  My uncle is an ex family judge, and his wife a mediator.  Both of them explained that parenting is a fundamental right and you really have to clearly prove the kids are in danger.  My kids are raised in an upscale community and although I see neglect, it’s unlikely that the courts would agree. 

In addition, divorce is expensive, and I personally lost a good chunk.  I was not willing to jeopardize financial stability without a much stronger chance of success. 

Fast forward to today, I’m divorced, my uBPD ex wife is struggling, my kids are doing pretty well but struggling with her. 
They usually don’t want to transition to her house (we have joint custody and a 2:2:5 schedule) and I can tell they want to transition to me full time. 

The school recognizes neglect when the kids are with their mom.  I have 2 years of e-mails all documenting all of the issues that have come up in Our Family Wizard.  It will be crystal clear to anyone that she lies, tries to deflect, neglects responsibility etc.  in other words, I believe I am building a much stronger case and ready to make a move when it becomes clear the timing is right. 

In my opinion, unless you have significant resources and enough documented instances of neglect that directly put your child in harms way, I believe you are doing the right thing. 

I would make sure that transitions occur away from the school whenever possible, that parent scheduling is crystal clear including vacation schedule etc and that you mandate communication and scheduling is done through a tool like OFW.
Can’t stress that enough. 

Thank you so much for the info and advice. I still have no idea what I would do if the option to settle is presented to me, but am trying to prepare myself now so I have time to think it over.

It sounds like you've done a great job of getting your ducks in a row to pounce when the time is right. I hope the court will acknowledge all of those issues and do right by you and your kids.

I'm keeping an updated journal and keeping all communications to OFW.

What you have said aligns with what my attorney has told me as well. You mentioned that having documented instances of neglect is key. While I understand that, how have you found/heard that the court thinks about rages and lash outs by the BP directed either at the child or at one of the child's caregivers (me, her future partners, her family, etc.) in the child's presence? And what about physical violence committed by the BP in the presence of the child? Those are two big issues in our case, and I haven't been able to get a clear answer as to whether the court will even care about that stuff. I obviously think they're a very big deal, but all that matters is what the court thinks.

Also, just the fact of being raised by a BP parent can be terrible for a child - I realize I'm preaching to the choir on this site. One of my biggest frustrations in this whole process is that the system doesn't seem to realize that, or at least do anything about it. It's as if the court believes that as long as the child's life isn't in jeopardy every day, then that person is adequate as a parent. While this is really hard on the "normal" parent, the people who really lose out are the kids.

[livednlearned]

Has your L said that there is a downside to asking for more than 50/50 as a dad?

[alleyesonme]

Has your L said that there is a downside to asking for more than 50/50 as a dad?

Yes and no. Not in asking for it in itself, but that there could be a downside if we do everything that it would take in order to get more than 50/50. Her psych eval would have to come back with some major red flags, and I think that's quite possible that it'll happen, but if it somehow comes back totally clean, then that could reflect badly on me.

What's your take?

[MeandThee29]

Yes and no. Not in asking for it in itself, but that there could be a downside if we do everything that it would take in order to get more than 50/50. Her psych eval would have to come back with some major red flags, and I think that's quite possible that it'll happen, but if it somehow comes back totally clean, then that could reflect badly on me.

What's your take?

It just depends. In my area, folks I know with similar concerns go for 50/50 and then document like crazy for a redo down the road if getting the actual proof is in question. In other words, actions count for more than thoughts, and there's skepticism when the majority of the proof is centered on a chosen expert.

Your attorney should know what the climate is in your area.
 

[alleyesonme]

It just depends. In my area, folks I know with similar concerns go for 50/50 and then document like crazy for a redo down the road if getting the actual proof is in question. In other words, actions count for more than thoughts, and there's skepticism when the majority of the proof is centered on a chosen expert.

Your attorney should know what the climate is in your area.
 

That's similar to the advice I've been getting. It's sad that dads have to jump through so many hoops and can't have a level playing field.

[livednlearned]

What's your take?

My take is that this is a marathon not a sprint, and even you did everything right, there will still be gutting setbacks. I ended up with full custody but it took 4 years and no small amount of heartache and a steep learning curve. We started out with 60/40  and joint decision-making and slowly chipped away at that until I reached full custody.

There are some significant differences in our cases but I'll focus on how things that I learned might translate to you. I should add that even though I'm a mom and thought I would benefit from the gender bias, that was offset by my ex being a former trial attorney, which meant he almost relished being in court. Ultimately that did him in because the judge could see something was wrong (took a while, but hey).

Since you have a temporary order in place (is that right?) and are in a relative lull with no substantive claim to modify the order, at least for now, my advice is to switch your approach to the other battle happening, which is for the heart and soul of your child.

Read Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak, Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy, follow Dr. Craig Childress's work, read the Power of Validation (for Parents), and the You Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms. Understand how BPD develops and all those bettering skills you found challenging to apply in your marriage, apply them to parenting. Your child is going to need a parent who has a black belt in emotional intelligence. It isn't enough to know that you're the stable parent. You have to be the parent who understands how emotions work and what it means to be emotionally resilient. Those books will give you a great foundation from which to start. These specific relationship and communication skills are not intuitive and must be learned.

Meanwhile, document everything. Keep a google calendar and track what happens -- times your wife refuses to let you see your daughter despite what the order says, appointments, what you did that day, what your daughter did, issues that came up. I created a specific calendar I labeled "legal" and then, when needed, printed it out in agenda view so I could see everything that happened chronologically. Every email I wrote to my ex I assumed would be read by other people. I started every email politely, used his name, tried to avoid any kind of pissing match. I kept every email, printed them out, put them in a binder and categorized them by labels (specific to our case): name-calling, substance abuse, stonewalling (a big issue related to joint decision-making).

Given your ex's history, it seems most likely that she will make access difficult and that could be your biggest red flag issue. Document that.

Keep posting on the bettering board because those skills are essential when it comes to parenting with a BPD ex-partner. Even if she gets triggered, you want to be able to persuade people involved in your case that you are impeccable in your words and actions. She may be worse than you, which makes you seem better, but when it's a high-conflict divorce with a child involved, you have to be better than better. You have to be wise and emotionally regulated no matter what she does or says.

This last bit might not come into focus until you file your next modification (assuming she blocks access regularly). Have your lawyer write all the orders, and look carefully at that language. Ask for consequences for non-compliance to be written into the order where possible. By consequence, I don't mean punishment. I mean accountability for not complying, natural consequences that are reasonable. This may be something like, "If one parent prevents access for 2 hours, the other parent can make up that time during the next exchange."

I didn't have that issue -- I'm just using that as an example.

In my case, natural consequence was stuff like, "Mom will select 3 parenting coordinators and share those with dad by day/date. Dad must pick 1 of those three by day/date, otherwise mom will choose."

Stonewalling was the worst thing in our case. I had my L put in reasonable consequences that closed loopholes for stonewalling behaviors. This allowed me to get things done without going back to court, and it also helped prevent the judge from giving my ex 3 and 4 bites of the apple. The judge would look at the order and see what consequences were agreed to, and then go, "Well it says here that you would sign up for parenting classes by day/date, and if you didn't, then visitation would remain the same. And if you filed to modify the order without doing these classes, then you would be held responsible for LnL's legal fees. So that's what's going to happen."

This level of careful language started to shine light on my ability to solve the problem of us being repeat customers in the judge's busy courtroom.

What is expected to happen next in your case?

[Jeronimo]

My take is that this is a marathon not a sprint, and even you did everything right, there will still be gutting setbacks. I ended up with full custody but it took 4 years and no small amount of heartache and a steep learning curve. We started out with 60/40  and joint decision-making and slowly chipped away at that until I reached full custody.

There are some significant differences in our cases but I'll focus on how things that I learned might translate to you. I should add that even though I'm a mom and thought I would benefit from the gender bias, that was offset by my ex being a former trial attorney, which meant he almost relished being in court. Ultimately that did him in because the judge could see something was wrong (took a while, but hey).

Since you have a temporary order in place (is that right?) and are in a relative lull with no substantive claim to modify the order, at least for now, my advice is to switch your approach to the other battle happening, which is for the heart and soul of your child.

Read Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak, Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy, follow Dr. Craig Childress's work, read the Power of Validation (for Parents), and the You Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms. Understand how BPD develops and all those bettering skills you found challenging to apply in your marriage, apply them to parenting. Your child is going to need a parent who has a black belt in emotional intelligence. It isn't enough to know that you're the stable parent. You have to be the parent who understands how emotions work and what it means to be emotionally resilient. Those books will give you a great foundation from which to start. These specific relationship and communication skills are not intuitive and must be learned.

Meanwhile, document everything. Keep a google calendar and track what happens -- times your wife refuses to let you see your daughter despite what the order says, appointments, what you did that day, what your daughter did, issues that came up. I created a specific calendar I labeled "legal" and then, when needed, printed it out in agenda view so I could see everything that happened chronologically. Every email I wrote to my ex I assumed would be read by other people. I started every email politely, used his name, tried to avoid any kind of pissing match. I kept every email, printed them out, put them in a binder and categorized them by labels (specific to our case): name-calling, substance abuse, stonewalling (a big issue related to joint decision-making).

Given your ex's history, it seems most likely that she will make access difficult and that could be your biggest red flag issue. Document that.

Keep posting on the bettering board because those skills are essential when it comes to parenting with a BPD ex-partner. Even if she gets triggered, you want to be able to persuade people involved in your case that you are impeccable in your words and actions. She may be worse than you, which makes you seem better, but when it's a high-conflict divorce with a child involved, you have to be better than better. You have to be wise and emotionally regulated no matter what she does or says.

This last bit might not come into focus until you file your next modification (assuming she blocks access regularly). Have your lawyer write all the orders, and look carefully at that language. Ask for consequences for non-compliance to be written into the order where possible. By consequence, I don't mean punishment. I mean accountability for not complying, natural consequences that are reasonable. This may be something like, "If one parent prevents access for 2 hours, the other parent can make up that time during the next exchange."

I didn't have that issue -- I'm just using that as an example.

In my case, natural consequence was stuff like, "Mom will select 3 parenting coordinators and share those with dad by day/date. Dad must pick 1 of those three by day/date, otherwise mom will choose."

Stonewalling was the worst thing in our case. I had my L put in reasonable consequences that closed loopholes for stonewalling behaviors. This allowed me to get things done without going back to court, and it also helped prevent the judge from giving my ex 3 and 4 bites of the apple. The judge would look at the order and see what consequences were agreed to, and then go, "Well it says here that you would sign up for parenting classes by day/date, and if you didn't, then visitation would remain the same. And if you filed to modify the order without doing these classes, then you would be held responsible for LnL's legal fees. So that's what's going to happen."

This level of careful language started to shine light on my ability to solve the problem of us being repeat customers in the judge's busy courtroom.

What is expected to happen next in your case?

I really appreciate this input, I am also in the middle of a custody battle and have focused my energy on quality of time with my kids despite the decreased quantity.  I will add your book suggestions to my reading list. 

[alleyesonme]

My take is that this is a marathon not a sprint, and even you did everything right, there will still be gutting setbacks. I ended up with full custody but it took 4 years and no small amount of heartache and a steep learning curve. We started out with 60/40  and joint decision-making and slowly chipped away at that until I reached full custody.

There are some significant differences in our cases but I'll focus on how things that I learned might translate to you. I should add that even though I'm a mom and thought I would benefit from the gender bias, that was offset by my ex being a former trial attorney, which meant he almost relished being in court. Ultimately that did him in because the judge could see something was wrong (took a while, but hey).

Since you have a temporary order in place (is that right?) and are in a relative lull with no substantive claim to modify the order, at least for now, my advice is to switch your approach to the other battle happening, which is for the heart and soul of your child.

Read Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak, Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy, follow Dr. Craig Childress's work, read the Power of Validation (for Parents), and the You Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms. Understand how BPD develops and all those bettering skills you found challenging to apply in your marriage, apply them to parenting. Your child is going to need a parent who has a black belt in emotional intelligence. It isn't enough to know that you're the stable parent. You have to be the parent who understands how emotions work and what it means to be emotionally resilient. Those books will give you a great foundation from which to start. These specific relationship and communication skills are not intuitive and must be learned.

Meanwhile, document everything. Keep a google calendar and track what happens -- times your wife refuses to let you see your daughter despite what the order says, appointments, what you did that day, what your daughter did, issues that came up. I created a specific calendar I labeled "legal" and then, when needed, printed it out in agenda view so I could see everything that happened chronologically. Every email I wrote to my ex I assumed would be read by other people. I started every email politely, used his name, tried to avoid any kind of pissing match. I kept every email, printed them out, put them in a binder and categorized them by labels (specific to our case): name-calling, substance abuse, stonewalling (a big issue related to joint decision-making).

Given your ex's history, it seems most likely that she will make access difficult and that could be your biggest red flag issue. Document that.

Keep posting on the bettering board because those skills are essential when it comes to parenting with a BPD ex-partner. Even if she gets triggered, you want to be able to persuade people involved in your case that you are impeccable in your words and actions. She may be worse than you, which makes you seem better, but when it's a high-conflict divorce with a child involved, you have to be better than better. You have to be wise and emotionally regulated no matter what she does or says.

This last bit might not come into focus until you file your next modification (assuming she blocks access regularly). Have your lawyer write all the orders, and look carefully at that language. Ask for consequences for non-compliance to be written into the order where possible. By consequence, I don't mean punishment. I mean accountability for not complying, natural consequences that are reasonable. This may be something like, "If one parent prevents access for 2 hours, the other parent can make up that time during the next exchange."

I didn't have that issue -- I'm just using that as an example.

In my case, natural consequence was stuff like, "Mom will select 3 parenting coordinators and share those with dad by day/date. Dad must pick 1 of those three by day/date, otherwise mom will choose."

Stonewalling was the worst thing in our case. I had my L put in reasonable consequences that closed loopholes for stonewalling behaviors. This allowed me to get things done without going back to court, and it also helped prevent the judge from giving my ex 3 and 4 bites of the apple. The judge would look at the order and see what consequences were agreed to, and then go, "Well it says here that you would sign up for parenting classes by day/date, and if you didn't, then visitation would remain the same. And if you filed to modify the order without doing these classes, then you would be held responsible for LnL's legal fees. So that's what's going to happen."

This level of careful language started to shine light on my ability to solve the problem of us being repeat customers in the judge's busy courtroom.

What is expected to happen next in your case?

Thank you for such a thoughtful and informative reply. I got a very unjust and illogical temporary ruling for parenting time that completely disregarded the GAL's recommendations. So we're currently on a schedule that's still very lopsided in my ex's favor. To be clear, while she has never given me an extra 30 seconds of parenting time unless she was forced to by the court, she has also never defied a court order. So while she's done everything possible to limit my time with our daughter and even admitted in our hearing that she has had no reason to do so, I don't know if there's anything I can do about it in the court because she's technically followed court orders.

Right now, we're in the discovery phase, and you're absolutely right that this gives me a golden opportunity to become an even better parent. I've read a bunch of other books that were recommended here, but none of the ones you listed, so I'll get on those ASAP as well.

One of the many issues we have is that I'll find out my ex has done or is planning to do something that isn't safe for our daughter, and I'll send her a message on OFW about it to address my concern. She constantly refuses to even discuss any of these issues with me or even give me basic information regarding our daughter's safety, as her typical reply is that I'm just trying to start an argument and she's tired of arguing. I've explained dozens of times that, as our daughter's parent, I have the right to address any concerns I have with her, and that isn't even close to the same thing as "starting an argument." Welcome to life with a BP, right?

[livednlearned]

I hear you on the safety issues.

I know from previous threads you have concerns about covid-related behaviors. This is a problem across the country (world, I'm guessing) and it's an issue on steroids in high-conflict + blended families.

My advice for stuff like this is to look at it less like you are going to sway her opinion (she's an insecure mom with BPD so unlikely to take it well) and more like an opportunity to showcase how well you communicate your concerns.

Sometimes people here have great solutions for tricky problems and it's worth asking the board for guidance. Most of the time, though, it's a slow process of settling into radical acceptance that you have very little influence in the short-term. Sometimes people make headway taking a long-term view that involves the courts, but that can feel like a crap shoot on the smaller stuff, and it puts a lot of power into the hands of lawyers and judges and third-party professionals.

That's why I recommend the books above (in addition to what you're doing). Your ex is more likely to harm your daughter through alienation behaviors as a matter of course than exposing her to covid, as strange as that may seem. Dr. Craig Childress describes these alienating behaviors as pathogenic parenting, an extension of the pathologic aspects of BPD that are projected onto the child. In his views, it should be classified as a form of child abuse and he is advocating for those changes in the DSM.

When you say you're in the discovery phase, what does that entail for your specific case?

[ForeverDad]

My take is that this is a marathon not a sprint, and even you did everything right, there will still be gutting setbacks.

In my case, natural consequence was stuff like, "Mom will select 3 parenting coordinators and share those with dad by day/date. Dad must pick 1 of those three by day/date, otherwise mom will choose."

I would replace Mom and Dad with "the reasonably normal parent" and "the other parent".  YOU want to be the one to vet the professionals and create the short list of vetted professionals for your ex to select from.  Courts like for both parents to have a share in decisions, it is just that you have to get in front of it so your ex doesn't have an opportunity to select an inexperienced, biased or gullible professional and pressure you to accept it.

I too started with lousy temp orders, one for the separation, another for the divorce.  And no one, not even my lawyer, tried to fix them during the divorce case.  It turned out to be nearly two years.  As much as you fear a settlement is impossible, I did have my ex accept reality and we settled for equal time on Trial Day.  Settlements are not impossible, but often they're not early in a case and typically are just before a huge hearing.  We were back in court a couple more times and each time I walked out with a little more parental authority.  Courts seem to prefer minimal changes, tweaking the order, rather than drastic ones.

[alleyesonme]

I hear you on the safety issues.

I know from previous threads you have concerns about covid-related behaviors. This is a problem across the country (world, I'm guessing) and it's an issue on steroids in high-conflict + blended families.

My advice for stuff like this is to look at it less like you are going to sway her opinion (she's an insecure mom with BPD so unlikely to take it well) and more like an opportunity to showcase how well you communicate your concerns.

Sometimes people here have great solutions for tricky problems and it's worth asking the board for guidance. Most of the time, though, it's a slow process of settling into radical acceptance that you have very little influence in the short-term. Sometimes people make headway taking a long-term view that involves the courts, but that can feel like a crap shoot on the smaller stuff, and it puts a lot of power into the hands of lawyers and judges and third-party professionals.

That's why I recommend the books above (in addition to what you're doing). Your ex is more likely to harm your daughter through alienation behaviors as a matter of course than exposing her to covid, as strange as that may seem. Dr. Craig Childress describes these alienating behaviors as pathogenic parenting, an extension of the pathologic aspects of BPD that are projected onto the child. In his views, it should be classified as a form of child abuse and he is advocating for those changes in the DSM.

When you say you're in the discovery phase, what does that entail for your specific case?

Yes, COVID remains a concern, but there have been some other "non-debatable" issues that have also popped up that she refuses to even discuss with me. I'm talking about black and white issues where doctors have explicitly told her to do or stop doing something for the sake of our daughter's safety, and she refuses to comply. Then when I find out it's still an issue and confront her about it, she refuses to even discuss it with me and accuses me of starting arguments.

I feel like I have learned a lot about BPD over the last two years, but need to learn more about parental alienation. I really appreciate you recommending those books!

We're doing interrogatories, and then I would assume some subpoenas of documents and depositions may come after that. What makes this extra hard to accept right now is that our magistrate had an opportunity to give us 50/50 temporary parenting time, just as the GAL recommended, but didn't do it. As everyone here knows, this whole process is a nightmare, but it would have been much less of a nightmare if I had more time with our daughter.

[alleyesonme]

I would replace Mom and Dad with "the reasonably normal parent" and "the other parent".  YOU want to be the one to vet the professionals and create the short list of vetted professionals for your ex to select from.  Courts like for both parents to have a share in decisions, it is just that you have to get in front of it so your ex doesn't have an opportunity to select an inexperienced, biased or gullible professional and pressure you to accept it.

I too started with lousy temp orders, one for the separation, another for the divorce.  And no one, not even my lawyer, tried to fix them during the divorce case.  It turned out to be nearly two years.  As much as you fear a settlement is impossible, I did have my ex accept reality and we settled for equal time on Trial Day.  Settlements are not impossible, but often they're not early in a case and typically are just before a huge hearing.  We were back in court a couple more times and each time I walked out with a little more parental authority.  Courts seem to prefer minimal changes, tweaking the order, rather than drastic ones.

As always, thank you for the tips and the info.

It's unbelievable to me how out of touch with reality courts can be with regards to temporary orders and how they aren't actually very "temporary." They can basically force one parent to miss the vast majority of a long period of their child's life.

I know this is a topic for another thread, but I don't understand why 50/50 isn't the default in every state for both temporary and permanent orders, and then you have to prove to them why you deserve more than that.

There may be no way for you to know for sure, but do you think you would have gotten full custody at some point if the school hadn't gotten involved?

Also, what was your mindset/goal when you agreed to the settlement?

[GaGrl]

Is the doctor willing to be deposed or to submit a statement about the recommendations made that your STBX is refusing to acknowledge?

[alleyesonme]

Is the doctor willing to be deposed or to submit a statement about the recommendations made that your STBX is refusing to acknowledge?

That's a good question, and we're actually looking into that right now.

[livednlearned]

So ... you have a temporary order in place, with the understanding that a lot more documentation and evidence will come forward before it becomes a permanent order?

It seems like your L is preparing to contest the temporary order with some rigor. Does that include a full-blown custody evaluation in addition to depositions?

The deposition piece is interesting. I wonder if your L is using it to see how credible a witness your ex is (and you). That's kind of what happened in my case. When is that coming up for you?

I know it's exasperating that you don't have the 50/50 recommendation in place after the GAL got involved. I suspect if your D2 were older this wouldn't have happened but it's hard to say (and doesn't change anything). I only bring it up because this one step back may be temporary and based on mom's insistence that things move gradually.

Also, the 50/50 default thing is typically in non-contested cases, from what I understand. When the 50/50 is contested, then these other things come into play.

[alleyesonme]

So ... you have a temporary order in place, with the understanding that a lot more documentation and evidence will come forward before it becomes a permanent order?

It seems like your L is preparing to contest the temporary order with some rigor. Does that include a full-blown custody evaluation in addition to depositions?

The deposition piece is interesting. I wonder if your L is using it to see how credible a witness your ex is (and you). That's kind of what happened in my case. When is that coming up for you?

I know it's exasperating that you don't have the 50/50 recommendation in place after the GAL got involved. I suspect if your D2 were older this wouldn't have happened but it's hard to say (and doesn't change anything). I only bring it up because this one step back may be temporary and based on mom's insistence that things move gradually.

Also, the 50/50 default thing is typically in non-contested cases, from what I understand. When the 50/50 is contested, then these other things come into play.

Exactly. For a number of reasons, no one has really tried to start building my case yet, so that's all about to start very soon.

We've gotten the ball rolling to start the psych eval process, which I think can really help my case based on my stbEX's patterns of behavior. We could then expand that to a full blown CE.

We don't have the deposition scheduled yet, but that's currently being discussed between the attorneys. There are a lot of alarming issues that my L can bring up in the deposition of my stbEX, and that will give us clarity as to what she'll admit to and what we still need to prove on our own. My stbEX lied about several issues in our hearing, so the deposition can also be used to help us continue to bring her credibility into question. She'll be backed into a lot of lose-lose situations when she gets deposed - either lie and get exposed or tell the truth and have her true colors revealed.

You make a good point about our daughter's age probably being an unspoken issue here. My biggest gripe with the temporary order is that it never builds up to 50/50, despite the fact that the GAL recommended 50/50 immediately and my stbEX said she's fine with us doing 50/50 as long as we build up to it.

[alleyesonme]

Here's a question for all of you. I've read that it's common for BP spouses to "punish" the non-BP spouse in custody disputes by limiting the non-BP's time with the kids as much as possible. That's exactly what has happened in our case. Does this pattern of behavior set off a red flag in the mind of a shrink that's trying to diagnose someone who may have BPD?

[kells76]

Does this pattern of behavior set off a red flag in the mind of a shrink

It depends on the professional and their expertise, I think.

Dr. Craig Childress has many articles on his site geared towards parents who need to communicate about their situation to professionals.

This isn't one of them per se, but it describes the "punishment of the targeted parent via the child" dynamic in great detail (i.e., the section "The Power to Exact Revenge" on page 5). Discussing it with or giving it to a professional might be an interesting way of getting feedback on whether they are "with it" and attuned to this kind of pathology or not:

https://drcachildress.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Strategic-Behavioral-Family-Systems-Intervention-Childress-nd.pdf

The article is generally from the perspective that it's an older child who seems to be rejecting the parent "on their own". Your D is still young enough that it's obviously Mom limiting the time, right? Does she give any "excuses" about why D can't be with you? Is she starting down the road of "D told me she doesn't want to go"? Or is it all Mom's reasons?

Try the first few pages of "Jiu-Jitsu Parenting" for ideas on how to communicate your concerns about the time-limiting to a professional, without sounding blaming or like the source of the problems:

https://drcachildress.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Ju-jitsu-Parenting-Fighting-Back-from-the-Down-Position-Childress-2013.pdf

Hope these help;

kells76

[livednlearned]

The materials kells76 refers to are among the best there is when it comes to communicating with custody evaluators and similar professionals. Childress writes like an academic  but he also helps you recognize how the evaluators are thinking, and how pathogenic parenting traits (like alienation) can tee these evaluations up to sabotage what Childress calls the normal-range parent (you).

There are a lot of alarming issues that my L can bring up in the deposition of my stbEX, and that will give us clarity as to what she'll admit to and what we still need to prove on our own.

How would you respond if the opposing L were to focus on your anger issues?

I'm not saying you have them, I'm giving you a window into how things could go.

The opposing L may ask if you have anger issues, then when you say no, he or she asks if you have ever yelled at your ex. Did you ever yell at her while driving?

Like most people, you will likely start to get heated, feeling cornered -- she's the one who gets angry and flipped out while driving! You did it one time and only because she. would. not. stop.

The deposition is an opportunity to show that you're not a high-conflict guy.

Let your L focus on your ex so you can focus on you.

Spend some time thinking about how to convey, even when provoked and undergoing character assassination (with your ex sitting across the table...), what a stand-up guy you are.

You: "Wow. I can think of no one who would describe me as an angry guy. Have I ever been angry? Sure. Most people experience anger and I'm no different."

L: "Have you ever yelled at my client while driving and made her fear for her life?"

How would you respond to that line of questioning?

[alleyesonme]

It depends on the professional and their expertise, I think.

Dr. Craig Childress has many articles on his site geared towards parents who need to communicate about their situation to professionals.

This isn't one of them per se, but it describes the "punishment of the targeted parent via the child" dynamic in great detail (i.e., the section "The Power to Exact Revenge" on page 5). Discussing it with or giving it to a professional might be an interesting way of getting feedback on whether they are "with it" and attuned to this kind of pathology or not:

https://drcachildress.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Strategic-Behavioral-Family-Systems-Intervention-Childress-nd.pdf

The article is generally from the perspective that it's an older child who seems to be rejecting the parent "on their own". Your D is still young enough that it's obviously Mom limiting the time, right? Does she give any "excuses" about why D can't be with you? Is she starting down the road of "D told me she doesn't want to go"? Or is it all Mom's reasons?

Try the first few pages of "Jiu-Jitsu Parenting" for ideas on how to communicate your concerns about the time-limiting to a professional, without sounding blaming or like the source of the problems:

https://drcachildress.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Ju-jitsu-Parenting-Fighting-Back-from-the-Down-Position-Childress-2013.pdf

Hope these help;

kells76

Thank you so much for the info!

I've read both of those articles, and would love to read the rest of Dr. Childress's articles as well. I'm having trouble finding them on this site for some reason. Do you mind pointing me in the right direction?

Somewhat surprisingly, my stbEX hasn't made any negative claims about me as a parent or about our D not wanting to be with me. Her only arguments are that our D is still nursing (yet easily goes 48 hours at a time without doing so when she's with me and doesn't even mention it) and that our D has never been away from her mom for more than 48 hours at a time. That's only true because my ex has refused to let it happen - not because our D couldn't handle it or because I didn't want it. There's zero rationale for why it's best for our D to spend hardly any time with me. This is 100% about my ex's selfishness to get everything she wants in every situation.

[alleyesonme]

The materials kells76 refers to are among the best there is when it comes to communicating with custody evaluators and similar professionals. Childress writes like an academic  but he also helps you recognize how the evaluators are thinking, and how pathogenic parenting traits (like alienation) can tee these evaluations up to sabotage what Childress calls the normal-range parent (you).

How would you respond if the opposing L were to focus on your anger issues?

I'm not saying you have them, I'm giving you a window into how things could go.

The opposing L may ask if you have anger issues, then when you say no, he or she asks if you have ever yelled at your ex. Did you ever yell at her while driving?

Like most people, you will likely start to get heated, feeling cornered -- she's the one who gets angry and flipped out while driving! You did it one time and only because she. would. not. stop.

The deposition is an opportunity to show that you're not a high-conflict guy.

Let your L focus on your ex so you can focus on you.

Spend some time thinking about how to convey, even when provoked and undergoing character assassination (with your ex sitting across the table...), what a stand-up guy you are.

You: "Wow. I can think of no one who would describe me as an angry guy. Have I ever been angry? Sure. Most people experience anger and I'm no different."

L: "Have you ever yelled at my client while driving and made her fear for her life?"

How would you respond to that line of questioning?

So much good info here - thank you!

If asked about my anger issues, my initial instinct would be to laugh, as I'm one of the most mellow people around. If cornered, I would calmly state that there were times when my ex's verbal and physical abuse was so overwhelming that I raised my voice to defend myself, but that I never initiated any of it. That's 100% accurate. I'd probably give some examples of some of the extreme abuse I was subjected to.

I like your response as well, and will jot that one down.

Adding the phrase "and made her fear for her life" to that question would make it an easy no for me. I'd probably say something about how we've fought while in the car before with both of us driving at different times, but nothing I've ever said or done has caused her to fear anything. And she's never come close to communicating that anything I ever said or did caused her to fear anything. Then I'd probably mention the instances of road rage that my ex has had with me and our D in the car where I genuinely did fear for our lives.

[kells76]

Parent section: https://drcachildress.org/category/parents/

try "parent resources" for starters

and MH professional section:

https://drcachildress.org/category/mental-health-professionals/

[kells76]

And keep in mind, if deposition is involved:

"Excuse me, do you know what time it is?"

Normal response: "Oh, yes, let me see, um, let me check my watch, it's about 12:30, or maybe 12:35"

Deposition response: "Yes."

There may be two things LnL is getting at, in the sample question of "Have you ever yelled at my client while driving and made her fear for her life?"

One: DON'T be "helpful". Don't offer information. Is it a Yes or No question? Say Yes, or No. And stop.

Two: understand that questions will be phrased by her L in a way most beneficial to her. It'll never be just "Did you yell at her?" It's going to be loaded and leading. The more you try to explain that "Well, yeah, but she started it...", the more nobody is going to hear anything past "Yeah".

I practice my "deposition answers" during work audits.

"Kells76, do you know where the quality policy is posted?"

"Yes."

I don't point them to it or describe what it says. Because they didn't ask, and it's not my job to explain, justify, defend, help, describe, etc.

[alleyesonme]

And keep in mind, if deposition is involved:

"Excuse me, do you know what time it is?"

Normal response: "Oh, yes, let me see, um, let me check my watch, it's about 12:30, or maybe 12:35"

Deposition response: "Yes."

There may be two things LnL is getting at, in the sample question of "Have you ever yelled at my client while driving and made her fear for her life?"

One: DON'T be "helpful". Don't offer information. Is it a Yes or No question? Say Yes, or No. And stop.

Two: understand that questions will be phrased by her L in a way most beneficial to her. It'll never be just "Did you yell at her?" It's going to be loaded and leading. The more you try to explain that "Well, yeah, but she started it...", the more nobody is going to hear anything past "Yeah".

I practice my "deposition answers" during work audits.

"Kells76, do you know where the quality policy is posted?"

"Yes."

I don't point them to it or describe what it says. Because they didn't ask, and it's not my job to explain, justify, defend, help, describe, etc.

Thank you for the links and the awesome tips on how to handle a deposition.

To fill you in a little more, I think one of the reasons I got such a lousy temporary order was I just answered the questions asked of me at our hearing. My ex's L was careful not to ask me anything that would give me an obvious opportunity to discuss my ex's true colors, and my L at the time did nothing to lead me to bring the truth out. I have more confidence in my current L to handle it much better, but there's still a part of me that doesn't want to pass up an opportunity to speak my truth.

I understand that this comes down to having trust in my L to either steer me toward my message or get it across for me.

[ForeverDad]

My lawyer always reminded me that his first duty to his clients was to sit on them, figuratively, so they couldn't say something that could make his case more difficult.  So keep answers as brief as possible.  Don't volunteer information.  If your lawyer wants more detail, your lawyer will ask specific follow-up questions.

Beware of trick questions that make you look bad no matter how you answer... "Have you stopped beating your wife?" is a famous example.  Yes you did and stopped or No you didn't stop?

I recall I was on the stand and her lawyer asked, "Are you taller and heavier than your spouse?"  Of course I said Yes.  I knew his insinuation, that my spouse had basis to 'fear' me.  As I look back I should have added, "And we're both larger than our preschooler."

He continued, "Do you want her back?"  It was a trap, if I said Yes then he could allege I was a controller.  Fortunately I replied, "No, not the way she is."  He had to move on.

You can always ask the questioner to rephrase the question.  And it's okay to ask for a restroom break while you ponder how to answer a thorny question.  Too, pause before answering so you can look at your lawyer's expressions, perhaps give lawyer time to object or step in as needed.

We've gotten the ball rolling to start the psych eval process, which I think can really help my case based on my stbEX's patterns of behavior. We could then expand that to a full blown CE.

What does your psych eval involve?  When my then-spouse and I separated we were both ordered to take psych evals.  I went to the county mental health agency and a college grad gave me a questionnaire or two and some verbal questions.  Two hours max.  The assessment?  Anxiety.

The assessment gave no indication of how much or how little our son was impacted.  The grad student met only with me so far as I ever knew.

To this day some 15 years later I still don't know if she ever took her psych eval.  My mistake?  We shared my results with the other side but never got hers.  If I had it to do over again I would instruct my lawyer, "Here's my results.  But don't just give it to her or the court.  Hold it and state you're ready to exchange the eval results."

You make a good point about our daughter's age probably being an unspoken issue here. My biggest gripe with the temporary order is that it never builds up to 50/50, despite the fact that the GAL recommended 50/50 immediately and my stbEX said she's fine with us doing 50/50 as long as we build up to it.

Yes, nursing mothers are prone to want to use nursing as a claim for more time.  Sadly, separation must interfere with that to an extent.  Your response is that she can express her milk and pass it along at exchanges.  Millions of working or divorcing women do that.

Can you get your court to add a schedule to ramp up your parenting time?  I had a problem with my court, I had two temp orders during my 2+ years of separation and divorce, both nearly identical and it had no interest in modifying them.

Even if you can't get court to make a ramp up schedule, do try to get it "on the record" that you are an involved father and seek as much time as possible and mother is agreeable to that as well.  (There courts are notorious — probably not a good choice of a word? — for putting only the bare minimum "on the record".  So IMO work on getting that there so you can always refer to it in the future.

[livednlearned]

I think one of the reasons I got such a lousy temporary order was I just answered the questions asked of me at our hearing. My ex's L was careful not to ask me anything that would give me an obvious opportunity to discuss my ex's true colors, and my L at the time did nothing to lead me to bring the truth out. I have more confidence in my current L to handle it much better, but there's still a part of me that doesn't want to pass up an opportunity to speak my truth.

Are you referring to the hearing to consider the GAL report?

Has your L suggested why he thinks the magistrate didn't follow the GAL's recommendation of 50/50?

I remember that your ex introduced a new concern at that hearing: D2 had never been away from her for too long. This was after saying that D2 was nursing and mom couldn't pump. So she's moving the goalposts at the final hour, even though she is also saying that 50/50 eventually is ok.

Your L's goal is 50/50.
The strategy is to use the period between temporary and permanent orders to drum up a more clear picture of what's going on.
His tactics are GAL, custody eval/psych eval, and depositions.

Where does he stand on the physical abuse?
Does he think the magistrate's ruling hurts your case going forward?

[alleyesonme]

My lawyer always reminded me that his first duty to his clients was to sit on them, figuratively, so they couldn't say something that could make his case more difficult.  So keep answers as brief as possible.  Don't volunteer information.  If your lawyer wants more detail, your lawyer will ask specific follow-up questions.

Beware of trick questions that make you look bad no matter how you answer... "Have you stopped beating your wife?" is a famous example.  Yes you did and stopped or No you didn't stop?

I recall I was on the stand and her lawyer asked, "Are you taller and heavier than your spouse?"  Of course I said Yes.  I knew his insinuation, that my spouse had basis to 'fear' me.  As I look back I should have added, "And we're both larger than our preschooler."

He continued, "Do you want her back?"  It was a trap, if I said Yes then he could allege I was a controller.  Fortunately I replied, "No, not the way she is."  He had to move on.

You can always ask the questioner to rephrase the question.  And it's okay to ask for a restroom break while you ponder how to answer a thorny question.  Too, pause before answering so you can look at your lawyer's expressions, perhaps give lawyer time to object or step in as needed.

What does your psych eval involve?  When my then-spouse and I separated we were both ordered to take psych evals.  I went to the county mental health agency and a college grad gave me a questionnaire or two and some verbal questions.  Two hours max.  The assessment?  Anxiety.

The assessment gave no indication of how much or how little our son was impacted.  The grad student met only with me so far as I ever knew.

To this day some 15 years later I still don't know if she ever took her psych eval.  My mistake?  We shared my results with the other side but never got hers.  If I had it to do over again I would instruct my lawyer, "Here's my results.  But don't just give it to her or the court.  Hold it and state you're ready to exchange the eval results."

Yes, nursing mothers are prone to want to use nursing as a claim for more time.  Sadly, separation must interfere with that to an extent.  Your response is that she can express her milk and pass it along at exchanges.  Millions of working or divorcing women do that.

Can you get your court to add a schedule to ramp up your parenting time?  I had a problem with my court, I had two temp orders during my 2+ years of separation and divorce, both nearly identical and it had no interest in modifying them.

Even if you can't get court to make a ramp up schedule, do try to get it "on the record" that you are an involved father and seek as much time as possible and mother is agreeable to that as well.  (There courts are notorious — probably not a good choice of a word? — for putting only the bare minimum "on the record".  So IMO work on getting that there so you can always refer to it in the future.

Thank you for all of the tips here. I'm sure I'll have much more trust in my current L next time we're in that situation than I had in my previous L, so that should help a lot in terms of me being more comfortable with how to answer each question.

Our psych eval is still in the works, but from what I have heard, it should be pretty thorough and will be done by someone with lots of experience. Both of us will be evaluated, and we'll both get access to each other's results.

I fully agree with you about the nursing issue. My ex says that she's no longer able to express any milk, but I don't even think that should matter anymore. Our daughter easily goes 48 hours without it and could go much longer, and she's almost 3 years old at this point. My ex's whole argument is just silly, and it's infuriating that she's getting away with it.

We do have all of that info on the record now. Our temp order does ramp up, but only to 33% on my end. I have no idea why it stopped short of 50/50 when the GAL strongly recommended it and my ex was fine with it after a phase in. I'm not sure whether or not we can get the current temp order modified - I need to ask about that.

[alleyesonme]

Are you referring to the hearing to consider the GAL report?

Has your L suggested why he thinks the magistrate didn't follow the GAL's recommendation of 50/50?

I remember that your ex introduced a new concern at that hearing: D2 had never been away from her for too long. This was after saying that D2 was nursing and mom couldn't pump. So she's moving the goalposts at the final hour, even though she is also saying that 50/50 eventually is ok.

Your L's goal is 50/50.
The strategy is to use the period between temporary and permanent orders to drum up a more clear picture of what's going on.
His tactics are GAL, custody eval/psych eval, and depositions.

Where does he stand on the physical abuse?
Does he think the magistrate's ruling hurts your case going forward?

Yes, I was referring to the hearing where we tried to get the GAL's recommendations implemented.

I have a different L now than I did when we got the ruling from that hearing. My former L had no idea why it happened. My only guess is that it's an example of the court just trying to force us to settle for 50/50. I say that because, if they'd given me a 50/50 temp order, I still would have pushed for more. As I said earlier in this thread, I really don't think it's emotionally or psychologically safe for our daughter to spend even 50% of the time with her mom. So maybe the magistrate thought that if he gave me 50/50, my ex would have lost all leverage. It still doesn't make sense to me, but that's the best explanation I have been able to come up with. I've consulted with several local attorneys and all of them were shocked at this ruling.

I'm glad you're able to see how maddening it is to hear her baseless arguments that are constantly changing to achieve her wishes. At no point does my ex ever consider what's truly best for our daughter. I can't believe the court has given my ex any credibility at this point.

Our goal at first was to get 50/50 as a temp order, and then push for more if possible with the understanding that it would be a challenge. I still think it's best for our daughter to maximize her time with me and minimize her time with my ex, but I have no idea whether or not that's attainable for me.

You're spot on with regards to our strategy, and we should get some valuable info in discovery as well.

Great question about the physical abuse, and I'm not really sure. My assumption is that just in itself, it may not do much for me if we just went to trial with it tomorrow. But in my completely untrained opinion, where it can help me is with my ex's psych eval and in the GAL's final report that takes the psych eval into account.

I have no idea about whether or not the temp ruling hurts my case going forward. I obviously hope it won't, but it gives my ex much more leverage than she would've had otherwise. I still have a good GAL report on my side and testimony from my ex that I'm a good dad and should have 50/50 at some point. If we go to trial, I would think I'd still get 50/50 at the worst, but you never know. It's tough to trust the court at this point after what the magistrate did, ya know?