First visit in couples counseling, --- survivor

[SamwizeGamgee]

Although it took along time to arrange and encourage, I made it through my first couples counseling.  I know it wasn't needed to save my marriage, but I wanted to tr all options.  And, I really believe in therapy. At worst I figured it could map out a dialogue of co parenting. At best it might add to our collective happiness.

I've not got time for details, but I realize that I kind of feel retraumitized after the ordeal even though some o good came of it.  I am getting framed as the main problem I think, but, I'm holding back a lot of truth right now since this is the beginning. Overall I'm glad for today.  

Just had to say something to others who get it. Because, no one else does.

[takingandsending]

Samwize,

I often feel traumatized after mediation sessions with my wife. There is some good in them, but man is it no fun being framed as the problem ... .for everything. pwBPD feel emboldened when they have an "empathetic audience" to air all of their grievances. It's safe and easy, much easier than without the referee. At least, that's my experience.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Spot on!
I think I've spent long enough training my sense of self to withstand about 80% of the "crazy" damage.  I'm glad I didn't go earlier.  I would have been run over, and left for dead - figuratively speaking.  Plus, since we have kids, I'll have a relationship with my wife forever, so, the couples counseling can be used to good effect.  I did find that the structure was a good place to say things safely moreso than if it was one-on-one. 

My wife did relish having a sympathetic audience that just believed her, though.  I think that's good.  I want her to have good associations with therapy.  It might make her more willing to go for herself, and will make a positive mark for taking the kids in the future - heaven knows they might need it.

Thanks for the support.  I have to heal quickly!

[ForMySon]

I remember my two rounds of therapy sessions.

1) after 5 sessions I almost lost my job due to the therapists advice. I was then told that he had never seen anything like this, and he told us that he could no longer help us.

2) after 3 session (in which maybe 15 minutes of actual "marriage problems" were discussed, and the rest of the time was spent trying to get her to speak) the counselor told me that she was BPD. It wasn't like I didn't know, and it wasn't a shock. The thing was that she told me to run as far and as fast as I could. To become the best man that I can be for my son.

That showed me that regardless of what you do to become the best person you can, they will (without very serious help) continue to repeat the same patterns and behaviors. I thought the same thing about being able to withstand 80% of the "crazy" damage. I tell you I was wrong. Coming through the other side of the relationship and finally being able to watch the fog rise, I see that I hold a lot more baggage than I thought was possible (I definitely didn't fend off the "crazy".

I hope you the best of luck in you counseling sessions, and I hope they turn out better than mine did.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks. I appreciate the best wishes - I'll need all the support I can get. 
I think this might sound evil, but, I am watching and expecting some dysfunctional behavior to show up.  I don't want that, and won't try to trigger it, but, it will be yet another verification point for me - and confirm my stance and move towards distance and possible divorce.
This therapist seems pretty able to hold her own, and won't be taken in by my wife's act - nor will she quite believe me either - but hey, it was the first visit.  I'll see what develops.

[ForMySon]

I think you would be surprised. The good therapist that I went to (I searched for someone with many years of experience in DBT) in the first session knew the deal, and she waited until the third session in order to tell me the truth of the matter. My ex didn't rage in sessions. She belittled, used words like all the time, and never had anything nice to say about me. The marriage counselor would ask her to do exercises, and nothing would get done. I will say that the validation of the therapist tried to make me stay with my ex for a bit longer, and I tried to look at her as someone with an illness and work on our relationship that way.

That still failed. Here I am still with my old marriage counselor. She is no longer in therapy. She is a therapist so she doesn't think she needs help.

Nothing will ever make sense, and marriage counseling doesn't last long with people with true BPD unless they are the initiators.

[ForeverDad]

I really do think you need to speak up for yourself.  Otherwise wouldn't it look too much like "No Contest" where the defendant doesn't declare innocent or guilt to let the claims stand uncontested?

How about each of you taking a private few minutes with the counselor and in your time state there is much she says and claims that you and reality disagree with?  Maybe tell the counselor that if you raise your left hand a bit, or put it on your right hand, play with the corner of a sheet of paper or some other signal it means you disagree but don't want to trigger an argument.

Lastly, what is the purpose of the couples counseling?  That is, what will you do if/when it fails or gets mired forever in blaming and blame shifting?

[takingandsending]

My ex didn't rage in sessions. She belittled, used words like all the time, and never had anything nice to say about me. The marriage counselor would ask her to do exercises, and nothing would get done.

100% my experience. And even still in divorce mediation. Belittling. All or nothing, black/white thinking. I recall our MC asking each of us to share something that we appreciated about our spouse. It was quiet, so I went first - never voluntarily go first! I said nice things that I did, upon reflection, appreciate in my wife. My wife said she honestly couldn't think of a single thing I had done for her, a single instance I had supported her. 17 years married. Yup.

And I agree with FMS - still carrying baggage and trying to get out of FOG. It's really, really hard to be emotionally bound to someone with this illness and not suffer lack of clarity from FOG. Truth is, most of us are under continual emotional assault in oh so many insidious little forms. Hard not to lose sight of what's true, what's normal, what a boundary is.

[ForMySon]

You've spent 17 years in this relationship. I bet for a lot of the time if your partner was anything like mine it was mostly easier to shutdown than to argue or defend your actions to her. To just sit and let the tirade go on until exhausted. Unfortunately mine never seemed to get exhausted. The FOG or 'fleas' however it would be described I feel will stay with me forever. For while we may see now that the FOG is gone, we knew that it once existed. This FOG changes your spirit, and you won't see it until the FOG is gone.

I remember well always going first TS. Always being the one with something nice to say about my partner. It eventually made me realize that it wasn't ever going to "normal". That she wasn't going to say nice things about me, and she truly believed me to be evil. It was through her actions that I learned this and not her words.

FD - I agree. What's the point in MC if you're walking on eggshells while there. Let that monster out, and let the world see it for what it really is. If you aren't true (and by holding back you are doing this), you are only hurting yourself. Counseling is to better yourself first, and your relationship second. There is no magic counselor that is going to be able to help you resolve not only your issues, but the issues of the relationship as well.
(If you don't believe that there are issues I would highly recommend Stop Caretaking the Narcissist or Borderline in your life it was a great read, and it made me realize my roles in the relationship)

 

[SamwizeGamgee]

I will find ways to advocate for myself - though this is probably one of the hardest things for me to do.  Fortunately, just underneath the big red S on my shirt is a bottle of anger, leaned precariously close to the DGAF meter, and the "say it in the open" button.  I try to process anger, but I think I have some in reserve for when it's time. 

I think these days I  am truthful with nearly reckless abandon, and I say things that are authentic, what feels truthful to me, and are also hurtful (like my wife is going to find out that I've regretted marriage for 20 years if I keep going).

[formflier]

I would encourage speaking up but in a direct and succinct way.  Don't debate details.

"That's simply not true... "

"I remember that totally differently... "

If, like my wife does/did, she ways "he thinks xyz... "

"Can we set a boundary around speaking only for ourselves... "  (hand this off to the T)

I realize it is very hard to speak up without chasing rabbit trails... .but I think that should be your focus.  Likely something you should explain once in detail.  That your pattern at home is to chase after every changing stories and standards... ask for help learning a new way of communicating.

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Tangent: The people in my life telling me how I feel has become a hot button for me.  These days, I always make an effort to point out that they do not in fact know how I feel, what I thought, what I wanted, and so forth.  I am usually calm and polite when making these assertions, but it does really feel wrong when I am told what I feel / meant / thought.  Funny thing I didn't address how rampant it was with my wife's behavior.  For example, in the past, she would say I was angry when such-and-such happened, or tell me that I thought something - before I knew it I was off trying to explain / JADE away my past infraction that she projected onto me - when in fact it was false to begin with.  I probably over react now to this type of thing, but, I am so done with being told how I feel.  I now consider that when someone (my wife) tells me what I'm thinking, she has an indicator of mental illness.   

I agree with setting a groundwork of "let's listen to what you say about yourself, everything you feel and say about you is okay and valid."  I add that anything you say about me is not accepted at face value. 

[formflier]

  I add that anything you say about me is not accepted at face value. 

I would strengthen this a bit... .and shorten.

"I don't discuss opinions about my thoughts and emotions"  period... .  that's your boundary and your value that you work from.

I would ask your MC for help in addressing this with your wife in a friendly and r/s building way.

blah blah blah... .you think xyz

Perhaps a friendly response is "Are you asking me to share my thoughts?"  in a friendly way.

I've pretty much conquered this in my relationship... .it still pops up from time to time and I'm able to bat it away fairly quickly... .while making the point.

There is one pathway to understanding what I think or feel about something... ."Ask me in an emotionally safe manner... "

Yeah... she hate's hearing that phrase or any implication that she is not "emotionally safe"... .so... .she has pretty much backed away from asking.  Life is better... .not good... .but better.

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

I like it.  I'll practice that.  "I don't discuss opinions about my thoughts and emotions."
Thanks!  I'm putting that into play today.

[formflier]

I like it. 

   

I betcha your wife will hate it... .!

Wear it like a red badge of courage...

FF