Is there ever any hope of talking about it?

[Seeleygirl]

Hi all,
I’m sorry if there is already a thread on this subject but I’m new here and haven’t figured out how to see posts yet before posting. I’m guessing I have to start with an introductory one myself? OK so I’ve been in a relationship for a couple of years now with my SO who is almost definitely BPD (not diagnosed but I’ve spoken to my therapist about it and she agrees that is almost definitely what it is). I feel terrible about having to “talk behind his back” but I definitely need help from those more experienced in this than I am and I’m hoping even some people who have BPD so I can benefit from your advice. My bf is a lovely sweet and caring person and when he is OK we have an absolutely wonderful, loving relationship. Unfortunately when he isn’t OK things are very, very bad. I’ve read a few books on the subject of BPD in the last little while to try and figure out how to best help him and our relationship travel a smooth course but lately I find this is not helping. My bf is not dumb and knows when I am trying to “handle” him by phrasing things and gets defensive right away. He has been dealing with his BPD (which he has no idea he has) for his whole life and also lived through a father (and probably grandmother) who also had it quite badly. He admits that he has a bad temper and to depression and anxiety but he finds this all a crushing weakness and hates to even talk about them. He hates that he needs help and the subject of it often sets him off so the tendency is to avoid the subject entirely when things are good but often this is the only time that we can even breech the subject of getting help. When things are bad we can’t even go near “there” as he projects everything (his projecting is so bad he once projected to me that I was projecting. So clearly this is a subject that someone has brought up to him in the past). Our biggest hurdles are the blatant lying, projecting and refusing to accept blame for any argument. In fact none of our “arguments” are ever even real arguments in my opinion. They are him telling me I am doing something (usually some sort of projection that he is the one actually doing), and me trying to reassure him that that’s not what I’m doing, but I’ve come to learn that even the act of trying to reassure him that’s not what I’m doing is “arguing” to him. When he’s in that “state” ANY talking by me or an Object of Blame is seen as arguing because he isn’t actually capable of hearing what we are saying when he is in that state. When things get like this he forgets how wonderful our relationship is - how we think the exact same about every subject from politics to social issues and even usually finish each other’s sentences - and will tell me things like “this isn’t going to work”, “We aren’t at all alike”, “You never let me talk” (he dominates every conversation) or “you’re always telling me what to do and always want your way” (I give him his way in everything mostly to avoid spiralling into a “bad day”). I try to comfort and support him in every way I can but when things go bad he completely forgets all those things (even though he acknowledges how much I do for him and how I’m the only one who is there for him when things are good). So my first question is this - with someone so deep in denial, are we ever going to get to a place where I can even broach the subject of BPD? We used to talk about his mental health more at the beginning and he admitted once that GAD might be an issue, but lately he doesn’t want to go into that subject at all and gets very upset when we do. His sense of what he “thinks” is his self is very strong and if he actually fully realized what he was doing I’m actually quite afraid how he would react. He would be crushed. But on the other hand I can’t see us surviving if we don’t broach the subject because I can see that eventually he will accuse me of not supporting him and of always trying to tell him he’s wrong and then I will become a permanent Object of Blame that I won’t ever be able to get out of. This will surely be the end of us because even though he is a wonderful person he treats his OOBs absolutely terribly and I know I wouldn’t be able to withstand that. In the past when things would go badly it would only last an hour or 2 or maybe a day at most but the last stretch went on for 2 months before he “came out of it”. Is this a bad sign? I’m trying to do what the books say - to reassure him that I am there for him and have his back but when he’s bad he doesn’t believe this at all. He thinks I’m being controlling and telling him what to do all the time. I would sincerely appreciate any help and guidance in navigating all this. I really want this to work - I love him very much and I’ve never found anyone in my whole life who is so much like me in every regard and who I have so much fun with when things are good. Thank you so much in advance.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Mr. Kelly]

I am so sorry to hear that you are encountering this situation. You are among many people, including myself, whose stories are very remarkably similar to yours.

I won’t try to answer your questions, since I am only a short distance apart from your situation, and I know that there are many others on here that can help you in a much better way than I can.

My situation has deteriorated to a point where my GF has left the relationship and claims she is never coming back. This has been the worst split that we have encountered. She has left probably eight times in the last year, each time telling me we are done and that every single thing was my fault.

Almost everybody who’s stories I have read state that when our partners are in these states of mind, the facts are often misinterpreted and spun to create a narrative of unintended self-destruction. Our partners are too damaged to realize the true love that we feel for them. In their soul, it seems impossible for them to believe what could be right in front of them.

My partner completely sabotaged our relationship, and she totally believes the “facts“ that she has conjured up. Mind you, there are facts, and I haven’t been great dispelling them, but there are two interpretations for every scenario, and she has taken the most destructive interpretation, Every. Single. Time. Thus, I am evil, I am a liar, I am disingenuous, and I am now single.

I hope you can find the means to fight this battle.  I suspect it will be a battle with no easy ending, if there is one at all. I too feel the connection with my partner that you felt, with some exceptions. Part of me almost has a hard time believing I can live without her. It just seems so strange that someone who shared my bed with such closeness could suddenly turn so cold. However, as most relationship experts say, break ups don’t usually happen overnight, and I think that is the same here. I think my partner has been stewing over these “facts”, for most of the year. They came out in full force when she broke up with me over the last week.

Anyway, I digress. I will be interested to see what others have to say on here.

 I will be watching your story with interest and with empathy.

[Snowflake90]

You keep saying you reassure him you have his back. My question to you is who has yours?
A relationship is made of two people. If the relationship is completely one-sided, then it isn't even a r/s to begin with. BPD sure makes things tougher in a relationship, but that depends on the level of impairment of the partner. Some are only mildly impaired and can be a relationship partner.
Is there physical danger to you, in broaching the subject? If not, then by all means go ahead. If you make no effort to change things, chances are they will stay the same forever, so it's more about either you accepting it forever or trying to make a change, however small. If no attempt is made, I suppose the status quo will remain forever.
Will he be angry? I suppose so. But are you happy with the current state of affairs? If you manage to convey that, and he cares for you one little bit, he must at least hear you out. If he simply dismisses you, and you feel abandoned, remember you're not obligated to stay with someone who completely disregards you and there hardly is anything you can do if the other side is unwilling to listen. And again, if you're going to be in physical danger, then in my opinion, one is not obligated to be in a relationship with an enemy either. That would sound more like a punishment

[Cat Familiar]

So many people enter into these relationships with BPD partners, thinking that the “good side” is what’s real and if only they could awaken them to the damage they’re doing to themselves and others (us), then they could be healed, and then they could enjoy a wonderful life with the “good side” forevermore.

The truth is that these people are both the “good side” and the “bad side”, just like everyone is. Only the difference is that most emotionally healthy people are far better at regulating their emotions.

We generally tell people it’s not a good idea to inform their loved ones about BPD. It’s a very stigmatizing disorder without much hope for improvement in most literature, should he do some research on his own. There are instances where someone was able to significantly improve with DBT, but that requires a serious commitment, which most people with BPD typically don’t make.

What can greatly help is for partners to learn communication skills to lessen conflict. That said, BPD is a lifelong disorder and the more traits an individual has, the more difficult it will be for the partner.

And as your boyfriend is aware, this is a personality disorder that can be genetic, so that’s something for you to keep in mind too.

We have a great library of videos, articles, book reviews, and a wonderful community built knowledge base. It seems you’ve done quite a bit of research already. Keep posting and reading more.

[Seeleygirl]

I am so sorry to hear that you are encountering this situation. You are among many people, including myself, whose stories are very remarkably similar to yours.

Ugh - I’m sorry I really don’t know how to use these reply features yet so I hope I’m doing this even close to right. Just wanted to say thank you so much for the response and I’m so sorry you are going through this too. My boyfriend’s “modus operandi” is to deflect blame from himself at any cost so it has been an ongoing issue. He lured me in at the beginning by telling me stories of how he had been hurt in previous relationships (it was always the other person’s fault) and I believed him. He was so good at playing the charming, wronged person that I was sucked in. It took nearly a year to figure out that the things he said they did are most likely things that he did but he is projecting it on them. I’m not exactly sure if he even knows he is doing this. I suspect on some level but I really don’t know. When things are good he is wonderful and supporting but as soon as he fears that I have one foot out the door (usually something he has conjured up in his mind) or that I am telling him he’s wrong all the time (any kind of disagreement with a statement), I can quickly become the “object of blame” and then he is intolerant, accusing, angry... it makes me so sad so I can completely understand how you feel when you say that you can’t believe this is the same person who once lovingly shared your bed. He hasn’t threatened to leave yet but there have been a number of “I don’t know how this is going to work we’re so different” and “I’m not going to be told I’m wrong for the rest of my life” so I can see how he might try to end the relationship in the future. Ugh. Anyway I’m so sorry and I wish you all the best too ((hugs)

[Seeleygirl]

You keep saying you reassure him you have his back. My question to you is who has yours?

Yeah I know. At this point I’m just relying on the fact that I’m pretty strong mentally and know that it is BPD so I try not to let it get me too deeply. He is not like this all the time so there are long moments of really good times. It’s just the bad times he can’t be reasoned with but thank you very much for pointing that out you are correct. I am tracking my own mental health as best I can

Is there physical danger to you, in broaching the subject?

No I don’t think so. He has a terrible temper but so far when he has lost it I have never felt any fear that he would physically hurt me. My biggest fear is smear campaigns. He has people he keeps on the side to go to to boost his confidence when we “argue” so that he can get his bum pat that none of it is his fault. I just don’t feel that he would ever entertain the fact that he has BPD - I’m sure he would try to say that it was me not him and so I don’t even think it will work to go there at all

[Seeleygirl]

So many people enter into these relationships with BPD partners, thinking that the “good side” is what’s real and if only they could awaken them to the damage they’re doing to themselves and others (us), then they could be healed, and then they could enjoy a wonderful life with the “good side” forevermore.

Yeah I understand that. But I had no idea that he had BPD at all when we first started dating. He was very charming and had great “stories” that seemed to cover all the bases. It was only about 4 or 5 months ago that it became apparent that he had BPD. Now I’m just trying to keep things on an even keel as best I can to see if this relationship is salvageable at all. He was previously in a relationship for 10 yrs and he still speaks with her on messenger quite often so I know that it didn’t turn into any kind of really bad legal breakdown although I know he would try to create a “mini smear campaign” for sure if things went bad with us. I still have hope that we can salvage things though. Things are really good with us at the moment but I’ve come to learn that this will only last for so long

[Seeleygirl]

.

And as your boyfriend is aware, this is a personality disorder that can be genetic, so that’s something for you to keep in mind too.

He has no idea he has BPD actually. He will admit to depression and anxiety but refuses to talk about it at all. In fact he said quite frequently that he “doesn’t want everything always blamed on them”. I feel like saying to him “then you’d rather me think you’re a jerk” but that wouldn’t go well. His father was exactly the same way so he knows what that was like to be on the receiving end but I think that is what scares him the most. He is terrified to believe that he is like him and so all of this is a defence mechanism. I’m actually really afraid what he would do if he truly knew what his behaviour was like and that he was like his dad. Are there any “intervention” strategies that have actually worked for BPD? I think he might admit to PTSD and I’ve heard that they are changing the name of BPD to “Chronic PTSD”?

[B53]

Hi Seeleygirl,

I really feel your pain and understand where you are coming from. The first thing I want to reply to is when you said

“He forgets how wonderful our relationship is- how we think the exact same way about every subject from politics to social issues and usually finishes each other sentences-“

This is called mirroring.
Definition:
Mirroring – Imitating or copying another person’s characteristics, behaviors or traits.
Borrowing a Self-Image
Mirroring occurs when people with Personality Disorders have a vacant or distorted self-image, which can manifest itself as an imitation of another person’s speech, mannerisms, behaviors, dress style, purchase preferences or daily habits. Mirroring can be a form of Dissociation, where a person’s strong feelings create “facts” which are less than true.

It’s felt so perfect. Like they were your perfect match. Your soul mates. You like the same things. They are interested in what you are interested in. It feels too good to be true. Like you hit the jackpot. They find out what you like, need and desire. Then they act like they like the same.
They will share their vulnerabilities and wounds so quickly. Bad ex-partner, issues with friends and family. They show themselves as a victim and have many issues with many people. Many short relationships, that did not work out because their ex was so “bad”….They show a lot more interest in your life than other people have done before. It feels good right? They get you to open up about your vulnerabilities and they will later use these against you when they split and go from idolizing to devaluing you.

I was able to talk to my ex about being a borderline, I waited over a month for the perfect time and he listened. I had bits and pieces of articles and tried to make it about us, not him.  I also talked about how much happier he could feel, less depression and internal conflict.  One thing that I had going for me, is that he did really want our relation to work out and was willing to do anything to make it better. Early on he initiated couples counseling, but the counselor had on idea what he was dealing with and neither did we at the time.  After our talk he went into therapy and was doing DBT and he dedicated himself to changing. He said he was feeling more peaceful and not angry all the time. Unfortunately, he had not been in therapy long enough and he was still breaking up with me at least once a month and I was sinking into a depression so I felt I needed to get away. Two months later he asked if we could give it another try. He was still actively in therapy and felt that he had a better grip on his emotions. We barely made it a month before he painted me black about something he perceived to have happened. I was so hopeful and the ending was devastating. I noticed that with each cycle he was meaner then the one before. It was easier for him to learn not to love bomb, then not to devalue. It has been NC for about two months now. I no longer want to be with him, he was so hurtful, that I never want to go through that again.

What I realized was, that his behavior was bringing out all my FOO issues that I had worked years to heal from. I was no longer the confident person that I was when I met him. I was becoming unsure of myself, agitated and at times, combative. I wanted so much to be the person that you are trying to be, but I realized that I would only make things worse if I stayed. I could no longer separate myself from his behavior and I did not like the person that I had become. I was broken. I am in therapy and doing better every day. After the first breakup I felt sad for him and when I thought of him I only remembered the good times, the possibility of the happy ending. Now when I think of him the bad times stand out more. I know he can not help the way he acts, but I am not going to sacrifice my happiness for just a hope of a better outcome.  I am older and nearing the end of my life and I want to spend the years that I have left, with someone who can give back the love that I have to offer, drama free.

This is my story, and I do not want to discourage you, there are many people on this site who are making it work. What I do hope, is that you take into consideration the reality of this disorder. What do you hope your relationship will be like ten years from now and knowing what you already know, how realistic are your expectations? The one thing that we had going against us was, that you may not have, is that he is 64 and he has been that way for a very long time and is set in his ways. The longer you behave a certain way, the harder it is to break. There are no medals, no atta girl, little if no empathy or acknowledgment of the effort that goes into living with BPD. You need to be a person with a strong sense of self.

Best of luck, I wish you well!
B53

[CrushedinOntario]

Almost everybody who’s stories I have read state that when our partners are in these states of mind, the facts are often misinterpreted and spun to create a narrative of unintended self-destruction. Our partners are too damaged to realize the true love that we feel for them. In their soul, it seems impossible for them to believe what could be right in front of them.

My partner completely sabotaged our relationship, and she totally believes the “facts“ that she has conjured up. Mind you, there are facts, and I haven’t been great dispelling them, but there are two interpretations for every scenario, and she has taken the most destructive interpretation, Every. Single. Time. Thus, I am evil, I am a liar, I am disingenuous, and I am now single.

Sounds so familiar.  36 year relationship, married 31.  Only started suspecting BPD a little over a year ago - apparently my love was completely blind because I can certainly now see ALL the big red flags that popped up, particularly over the past 15 years.  We always thought the bipolar diagnosis she got years ago explained things.  No.  She's been emotionally detached for over a decade, and despite my ongoing attempts to get her to re-energize and put effort into our relationship.  After being neglected for as long, I ended up cheating on her and she found out.  Strangely enough, my cheating and taking responsibility for it isn't good enough, where she cheated during what we thought was a manic episode 12 years ago, and although I have verbal confirmation from some of the friends she was "close to" at the time that she was playing around, she's gaslighted me on it ever since (as I don't have "proof" to put in front of her.

She will not accept that it takes two people to make a relationship work, and I can't be the only one doing everything and having none of my needs filled in any way.

Starting to move on.  She's in complete denial around the BPD even though it appears that her psych and counsellor were both talking with her about it a year or so ago. DBT workbook was ordered, but then tossed aside.

[once removed]

I find this is not helping. My bf is not dumb and knows when I am trying to “handle” him by phrasing things and gets defensive right away.

anyone will do this. why? because its condescending and speaking down to someone.

the key to the communication tools is, above all, sincerity, and speaking as you would in the context of your relationship.

for example, if someone is yelling at me, i would not generally say some canned phrase like "i understand how you feel". i would, above all, listen to what they are saying. id try to separate myself from the criticism and put myself in their shoes. and then id respond in a constructive way, in the language that the two of us tend to use with each other.

He admits that he has a bad temper and to depression and anxiety but he finds this all a crushing weakness and hates to even talk about them. He hates that he needs help and the subject of it often sets him off so the tendency is to avoid the subject entirely when things are good but often this is the only time that we can even breech the subject of getting help.

there are some people that are simply this way; my dad was one of them. it can be frustrating, because a person is basically saying "this is how i am, deal with it", and while you should not be in the habit of tolerating disrespect, it is vital to understand a persons limits and limitations.

there is virtually no way to try to persuade a person to get help they dont want that they wont perceive as you telling them that they are defective.

When things are bad we can’t even go near “there” as he projects everything (his projecting is so bad he once projected to me that I was projecting. So clearly this is a subject that someone has brought up to him in the past). Our biggest hurdles are the blatant lying, projecting and refusing to accept blame for any argument. In fact none of our “arguments” are ever even real arguments in my opinion. They are him telling me I am doing something (usually some sort of projection that he is the one actually doing), and me trying to reassure him that that’s not what I’m doing, but I’ve come to learn that even the act of trying to reassure him that’s not what I’m doing is “arguing” to him.

this is fundamentally about how both of you handle conflict together. without resolution, with accusations, and in a circular way. while it appears to you hes unwilling to budge, it likely appears to him the same way (im not at all suggesting that he isnt the more difficult party between the two of you, but that the way both of you approach conflict is learned, entrenched, and not constructive).

you love a difficult person, but i suspect the key is less in helping him to see the light so to speak, as it is changing the dynamic in your marriage and the conflict the two of you have. someone has to be first, and that person often has to be us, but our loved ones often follow our lead.

the high conflict couple may be a great place to start...it can help to see parts of our approach that may not be helping: https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/high-conflict-couple

[Seeleygirl]

anyone will do this. why? because its condescending and speaking down to someone.

for example, if someone is yelling at me, i would not generally say some canned phrase like "i understand how you feel". i would, above all, listen to what they are saying. id try to separate myself from the criticism and put myself in their shoes. and then id respond in a constructive way, in the language that the two of us tend to use with each

I am putting myself in their shoes and responding in a constructive way by saying “I understand”. Because I do understand why he is having a meltdown - it’s because he has BPD and extreme anxiety and in the moment is unable to see things clearly or have any kind of empathy for anyone else. Believe me I have tried to respond in a way that I would generally respond to anyone else and it absolutely does not work. With him, basically the fact that I am talking at all is seen as arguing and “not listening”. He cannot be reasoned with at this point and he has told me in the past during stable moments that when he is like that he is physically unable to process anything the other person is saying and it just makes him angrier because he doesn’t understand/can’t follow what is being said so he feels like he is being “talked in circles” on purpose in order to win the argument. It doesn’t matter that that is absolutely not what is happening. Contrarily, you can’t say nothing either because this irks him to no end and is seen as “not listening” (not validating what he is saying). It’s basically a no win situation and I’ve found that saying “I understand” is basically all he can handle in those moments

[once removed]

to be clear, "i understand how you feel" was just an example, not a criticism of your word choice. there is a certain stereotypical idea of what it would mean to use "therapist speak" on someone, and that tends to irk anyone on the receiving end. its easy to use the communication tools in that way.

i think what youre talking about, and i would tend to agree, is that when someone is dysregulated, or off the edge so to speak, there generally is no talking them down. you have to do what you have to do, until they get back to baseline. in those cases, its primarily a matter of "not making things worse".