I really need help with my H

[Concerned2020]

 
I am in a lot of trouble right now with my uBPDh.  He is untreated, undiagnosed, and I really need help.  Let me start by saying that I am a 44(W) and he is a 53(M) and we have been married for 18 months, together for 4 years.  We are in a very difficult cycle right now, and I have moved out of our home into my own apartment.  There has been verbal, emotional, and physical abuse in our relationship.  And before I ever realized what I was dealing with, I used to fight back.  I JADEed my way all throughout the last 4 years, because I thought "normal people don't really believe this stuff, right?"  There has been alcohol abuse on both of our parts, although I quit drinking completely almost 3 months ago and have been sober every day since.  Unfortunately, he is still struggling occassionally with alcohol.

I realize that a relationship is comprised of 2 people.  I have been in weekly therapy/EMDR now for 7 months since he and I separated in an effort to deal with my own traumas and core issues.

First, let me say that the black and white thinking/splitting is becoming unbearable.  It includes with with me, and everyone else in his life.  Including his child, brothers and sisters, my children, people he works with, etc.  There are chronic accusations of me cheating on him, or betraying him in a variety of ways.  He will find a grain of truth in an accusation and take it all the way to the max/worst case scenario.  And after years of being accused, and brow beaten, and having my entire character assassinated by my husband, I am at the end of my rope.  My therapist obviously advises me to stay in the apartment and away from him- which I am... but she doesn't say much after that.

Notably, worth telling you guys... After an especially bad argument a few months ago, he asked me if I would join him in an INTENSIVE 8 week program to fix our marriage.  It's an extensive program and it's all online.  And it has not served me very well.  The moderator promotes openness, honesty, and full disclosure.  In our past, my husband has used phone records, stealing my phone, searching my facebook page on my phone, and doing deep online dives on me to scrutinize everything that I do, and this moderator promotes that (the open honest part, not the digging, suspicious part).  It's been painful.  He can make a mountain out of a molehill.  And he frequently does.  So here I find myself.  I am scared.  I am feeling so hopeless.  I can't live in chronic chaos, and I do not know how to help myself, other than to retreat to my apartment and lock all the doors.  It's a pretty low level of surviving this, I know.

I ordered a couple of books yesterday.  "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and "I Hate Y,ou, Dont Leave Me".  I desperately need insights.  Physically, emotionally and just HUMANLY, I can't take it anymore.  I am at the end of my rope. 

Can anyone please help me?

PS. I posted here about this about 2 years ago, and I cannot find it for the life of me.  I'd love to go back and reread it. I am sure it was the same back then too

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

I'm so glad you found us in this difficult season of your life. 

I'm curious how the moderator handles the suspicion and making mountains out of molehills.  In the past I've done those types of counseling things with "complete openness" and they went really bad.

Some of the counselors eventually gained insight and started using words like "paranoia"..

Anyway, I would recommend that you read those books and maintain as much space as possible while you gain more understanding of this disorder.

Best,

FF

[Gemmie]

Hi C,

First of all    !

I'm so sorry you're struggling so bad right now. I, too, am in the process of separating from my BPD hubs. He's 65, I'm 51. However, I have been in this marriage with him for 25 years. I have never lived alone in my life and now, I'm about to purchase a cute little condo.

I'm a nervous wreck at the moment, just like you. He knows that I plan to separate, but he doesn't know I'm actually purchasing a place, not renting. I'm terrified to tell him.

Although, the event that finally led to the separation, has led him to have an "Epiphany" and swears he will work every day for the rest of his life to prove that he'll never hurt me again.

So, while I can say - at this moment - he is in serious "honey-mooning" and desperate to keep me here, my heart knows I have to do this.

My point is that I can TOTALLY relate. The "Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde" analogies that are often used here are REAL. They can be so sweet and charming, and then psycho/vicious and rage at us with verbal abuse.

It's horrible that we can't help them, or fix them. But, we have to make the most of the life that we were given, too! Each of us are born as separate, individual beings, and we deserve to a life that is not just all about our mate - all about trying to keep them stable - trying to anticipate if/when they're going to lash out/attack us - living with constant anxiety and heightened paranoia - never getting to TRULY/FULLY relax. Not to mention - getting to experience OURSELVES as an individual!

So I know you're scared, feeling alone, frustrated, frightened, and all of it!

Do you have your own therapist? That is imperative. Do you have friends and family support that you can talk to, cry on shoulders? Can you try journaling, go for a walk, check out this cool site I found which has all kinds of great worksheets and stuff for helping us handle our emotions: https://www.therapistaid.com/therapy-worksheets/cbt/none.  There's some great stuff there.

Just know that all the chaos is from him - not you! You're doing what you need to do to survive and you deserve to be happy! You were gifted with your own life and you have every right to live it the way you want to, and in a way that can offer you the greatest amount of happiness!

So you're not alone, love!
I'm sure I speak for all of us here when I tell you that you WILL BE OKAY!

Channel all the anxiety you feel into YOU - do some self-work, self-love, self-acceptance and know that you're doing the right thing.

Hang in there and keep posting!   

[Concerned2020]

Hello Formflier!  Nice to "meet" you.  

I'm happy to answer any questions.  

The moderator of this "Marriage Bootcamp" instructs us to put ALL of our pressing issues aside.  No speaking of them in any respect.  He says to start small.  Talking kindly, touching several times a day, really small loving gestures.  We listened to 15 hours of audio lessons and we participated in a Q&A teleseminar.  But during these audio recordings, he would visibly bristle and become really uncomfortable.  He would say things like "I already know how to do all of this!  And now HE gets the credit?" and  "Just another MAN in our life that gets more credit than me".  

When we were supposed to really dive in after the audio lessons, there is a workbook that we never got to even get started on... because the first page wants you to list all the things that you have made more important than your marriage and list how you intend to rectify that.  (The moderator is talking about things like online gaming, work, children, exercise, etc)  But my husband thought my list should include the list of ALL THE MEN that I have inserted into our marriage.  And therefore, we never got into the workbook.

My husband has an obsession with anyone who has ever assisted me in moving out (escaping) him.  The list includes my ex husband/father of my grown children.  And the obsession with him is really, really intense.  My ex husband was always one of my best friends.  He and I divorced 10 years ago, but stayed friends for our children and co-parented until they were grown.  And when my current husband physically abused me and I literally had to escape with my life, my ex husband was a welcome financial and emotional help.

But my husband is obsessed with the idea that this is INFIDELITY.  He has no concept of HOW we ever got to that point.  I have never held another man's hand, never had an inappropriate conversation, never.  His suspicion of me ranges from- over the last 4 years- searching through phone records, searching my phone, scouring for references of me online, looking through myspace (although it's been defunct for many years) It is an actual obsession.  I don't know how to deal with it, because it is not true.  But now I've spent YEARS JADEing with him.. and I do not know how to dig us out of it.

[Concerned2020]

Hi Gemmie.  I'm sorry you've been dealing with this for so, so long.  I'm inspired by your post.  I got "out" into an apartment about 7 months ago, but I just love him so much, I can't leave him completely.  Since I have left, though, it seems like it has only accelerated on his part.  And I'm sure that's because it triggers his insecurity, but I just cant keep doing it over and over again, the same things, over and over ad nauseum.   

I hope that you have all the happiness and success you get muster for yourself!  You sound like a really strong person!

Yes, I do have a therapist.  I have been in weekly therapy for 7 months since I left him.  We are working on healing the trauma.  EMDR therapy for PTSD. 

I just wish that I would have always known what I am dealing with.  I have made SO MANY MISTAKES... the kind that you can make with other people, and it's easily overlooked... but not with a person uBPD. 

[formflier]

But my husband thought my list should include the list of ALL THE MEN that I have inserted into our marriage.  And therefore, we never got into the workbook.
 

So..when you asked the moderator about this, how did he guide your husband?

What kind of things did you husband list for himself?

Was there any guidance at all about what to do if you don't agree with your spouses list...or was evaluating the list of your spouse specifically off the table?

Best,

FF

[Concerned2020]

Form Flier, it was specifically out of bounds.  Unfortunately, there is no direct access to the moderator unless you can afford to pay for a 1 hour phone call for $895.00, and he and I just can't do that right now.  My husband never made his list because he was too upset at the idea of mine. 

It's very, very frustrating because every time I think I'm doing the "right thing", I end up just stepping in the mess deeper with him.

[formflier]

Gotcha...well...how is it that he got to see your list before he even made his..or did he imagine your list and go from there.

This is a classic example of why it's a bad idea to do a joint counseling with someone that is unable to reflect and work on their own issues.

Please don't take my post as criticizing you...and your attempts to improve something.

Big picture:  Does he want to improve the marriage or fix what's wrong with you?

Best,

FF

[Anne081]

I’m so so sorry  you are going through this. You are not alone and it is not your fault.

[Gemmie]

Hey C!

Well, love you’re doing what you need to do.

I thank you for perceiving me as strong. Honestly, the red flags appeared in the first 6 months and I chose to give him benefit of the doubt bc that’s not very long, ya know?

Fast forward - 25 years - it’s like I have suddenly awakened from a coma to the horrific reality that I’ve been the victim of domestic abuse for HALF OF MY LIFE - literally.

The Dr Jekyll of my hubs is the most generous, thoughtful, selfless, loving, and complimenting man ever. I SO love that part of him, that I somehow kept justifying the abuse, excusing it, accepting his tearful pleadings that it would never happen again, that he’s learned his lesson and will prove to me every day for the rest of our lives that he was sorry.

The Honeymoons do NOT (cannot?) last. I’d say about 3-4 months was the longest he could before Mr Hyde erupted and lashed out at me, in horrifying rage, and the most vile verbal assaults and accusations.

I just reached my breaking point (this last time he cut off his wedding band) and for the first time ever, I didn’t feel panicked, anxious, or sick. I felt...like...numb and then suddenly “OMG! He just let me go! He just set me FREE! I’m not the ‘bad guy’ to leave him!”

And - as their cycles always come back around - Dr Jekyll’s ring was miraculously repaired and reappeared on his finger within a few days.

This time, I told him (after several days of the silent treatment, with the cut ring on the stove top so I could see it everyday), that he finally broke something in me. That I felt like I had nothing more to give. That I wanted a separation. (I SHOULD HAVE GONE RIGHT TO DIVORCE! But - like you say - the love of the “good person” in there complicates it so much. It is not as authentic and real, though, in the same way WE feel love.)

Now he’s all about proving that THIS TIME he has had an “epiphany” like a light bulb has gone on over his head and he realizes how awful he’s been to me all these years. He promises he’ll prove it every singe day and swears he is a changed man.

Sound familiar?

This is how I got sucked in. It’s only in hindsight, now that he absolutely sucked the last drop of my ability to keep playing this life, that I realize 25 years of my life, my happiness has been sacrificed for one of ONLY walking on eggshells and making sure he is calm.

I guess what all this boils down to is to ask you to read the SWoE book. It helped put this is the light of the painful reality that you ARE in a DOMESTIC ABUSE RELATIONSHIP.

The love you feel can be very real, powerful - but it is not worth your entire life, your entire being, your entire sense of self worth and sense of individual identity and value.

Please work very thoughtfully, it is extremely hard to disengage the longer you’re in it.

Since I awoke from my 25 year “coma” - I’m going through a lot of the same things you’re feeling. Perhaps I’m lucky because I have been broken by him finally and the snapping of the camel’s back, the awakening, granted me the clearest - real - view of what has happened and why.

We cannot fix them. Your past experiences show you what you can experience in the future - for years and years.

It’s awful, it’s painful - but there is REAL life still available to us!

Be careful and don’t lose yourself bc of another person.

[Concerned2020]

Thank you to all who have answered and given me your insights.  I don't yet know how to properly reply to specific quotes.  So I'll list each of you...

FormFlier:  My list was never actually written.  It was just assumed by him.  He verbally told me his list.  His list was "Stop physical violence, stop using alcohol, stop verbal abuse.  My therapist tried to warn me about what a bad idea this was to start this "bootcamp" with him.  And he just ran roughshod over me.  He says that he wants the marriage to work, but I don't know how a marriage can work the way he says he needs it to.  With open, honest communication.  Because those words, to him, mean suspicion, checking up on, accusations, the collection of information for the purposes of hurting and lashing out.  He also says that I need to "stop injecting my past into the marriage".  That "past" means the father of my grown children.  The other grandparent to my grandson.  He is extremely resentful of anyone who helped me move out and away from him.

Annie:  Thank you for your kind reply.  It does feel like my fault for not recognizing it sooner.  There were red flags from the jump.  There were incidents of unwarranted jealousy extremely early on.  If I had only known then what I know now, I would NEVER have said so many things I've said, and I would NEVER have done so many things I've done.  Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda.  But I can't go back, and he WONT forgive- or forget, no matter how much contrition I display.

Gemmie: You sound so much like where I am at right now.  He has broken me.  He has gaslit me into believing so many things.  It's only through therapy with diligence that I have even begun to understand it all.  My therapist thinks that if it would ever "work" between us, I would always need a separate place to go.  And that's not a marriage, that's just management.  I don't believe that I have enough left in me to manage his moods for the rest of my life.  Gone are the days of speaking easy, laughing with my whole heart, and true, unabashed expression with him. 

And Gemmie, I didn't say this earlier, but my heart just leaps for you at the idea of getting your own place to live.  Before I moved out, I was pretty financially dependent on him (and that was heavily used against me).  When I decided to get my own apartment, there was no better feeling in the world to me than when I left his house to come back to this little crappy apartment, shut the door and LOCK IT.  There is a peace here that I cannot describe.  I wish that for you and I'm so proud of you for taking that step.

At this point, I can't even imagine moving back into the same house as him.  Living with him is exactly like living with a live grenade in the living room.   I now have to decide if I have any energy left to even try.  Because I am EXHAUSTED.  It is exhausting, the level of control it takes to not JADE.  Not to take offense when the person that is supposed to love you more than anyone else hurls the most vile, hurtful, insulting assassinations of your character that they can think of.  I lived a pretty robust life before him for 41 years, and I have never seen anything like it.  I hope to God that I never do again.

My books will be here tomorrow.  I intend to dive into those, instead of the marriage bootcamp books.  I hope you all have peace in your homes and minds tonight.  I'm off to bed.  I'll be back here tomorrow.  I appreciate every single response.  Thank you.

[formflier]

My therapist tried to warn me about what a bad idea this was to start this "bootcamp" with him.  And he just ran roughshod over me.  

So..what is the therapists advice on what to do right now?

Best,

FF

[Concerned2020]

As of my last appointment, she suggests that I do not allow him any more access to phone records, facebook, etc for him to pore over.  She feels like the more information I give him, the worse ways he's going to use it.  She thinks that if we are to remain in a relationship, we will probably always need separate homes.  The greatest hope that she has for him is that through my behaviour modification, it's possible that he will modify his in return.  In the last few weeks, I have added him to my facebook friend's list (he just got FB in the last couple of weeks).  And again, last night, he just pole vaulted any societal norms, respect for me, and he sent out nasty messages to a lot of members, and former members, of my family.

I spent some time over the weekend with him, and when Sunday afternoon came around, we both knew I had to go back to the apartment because we agreed upon it before I came to visit.  But when it did come around, he let me go easily, but after I left, he chose to get very drunk, belligerent, and pore over my family's facebook pages.  My ex husband and his girlfriend.  My children's pages.  My former step son's page.  And he sent me nasty, ugly texts.  I simply told him that I wasn't going to participate in the destruction that he had chosen for the night, I love him, and that I wish he hadn't made the choice to drink.  I didn't reply to any of the messages, and when I went to bed, I just said "goodnight, I love you"  I am so tired of this

[RahButter]

Hi there - I'm new here but I definitely understand what it feels like to be on the receiving end of invasive and suspicious accusations due to the person with BPD's inability to accurately judge external threats to the relationship. My boyfriend took on a militant level of observation into what I was doing at every moment when he was able... If I made a post or liked something on Facebook for example, he would immediately call me and make a comment, or question me, or let me know that he was aware, and all of it was very very bad and suffocating for me emotionally.

Before we separated and my BPD boyfriend started taking therapy seriously and working through his issues on his own, the simple act of putting on makeup could spark crisis-level interactions between us on a day to day basis. My boyfriend would go so far as to question me over a sock he didn't recognize, or the positioning of the passenger's side seat. It was completely off base (I was loyal to my boyfriend) but he was convinced that I was either being unfaithful to him, or if I wasn't, that I was going to be at some point.

One thing that really really helped me when I broke things off at the end of 2020 (before we started a relationship back up again), was reading the book "Why Does He Do That" by Lundy Bancroft. While the book is more focused on anger and abuse (both verbal and physical), it does highlight the very real effect that abuse resulting from BPD traits has on the person who is trying to love and support the BPD partner, and while we all want to take care of those we love, it brings the reality home of what toxic relationships can do to harm us and keep us from living our lives. While it is possible to have a relationship with someone with BPD, it takes a lot of work on our part to make sure we are not accepting bad behavior, and it takes reinforcing boundaries to keep yourself safe. There is always the possibility that the person with BPD is not going to change, that the abusive aspect of his or her disorder will persist, and this book is great about helping you to recognize patterns that will inform your decision to leave or to stay with your BPD partner. It also helps you to remember that you did not cause the BPD and alleviate some of the guilt that may accompany the decision to move on, if that's what you truly feel is best for your life.

You are not alone and you have the right to live your life in the way that you think is best for you, with or without your BPD partner.

[Concerned2020]

Hey Rah, thank you for your kind reply.  Right now, I'm reading a couple different books.  "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me".  I will order your book suggestion today.  I appreciate any help I can get. 

Yes, it is much the same with he and I.  The verbal abuse knows no bounds, and the physical abuse has lessened in the last couple of years, but he will get physically intimidating, but hasn't out right hit me in a long time.

He's in an especially vicious emotional cycle right now.  I am living separately from him, and he is unable to visit me because my 21 year old is staying with me until June.  As you can imagine, there's no love lost between them.  So his access to me is limited, and he does not like that.  He's spinning out right now, and he's drinking and talking about going to have sex with a stranger because "his wife is too busy with her son to take care of her husband".  I mean, he is way, way out there today. 

When I realized he had started drinking yesterday, I told him the following:  "Honey, I love you, but you know that I wont participate in the kind of drunk conversation that you want me to.  It's too hard for me to stay sober when I am listening to your drunk talk.  You know as well as I do that nothing good happens when you're drinking anyway.  I'll talk to you in the morning.  Please don't drive, please be careful.  I love you very much." 

His words hurt so much. In spite of all the accusations and all the mistrust that he spews at me, I have NEVER so much as held another man's hand since I met him.  I love him so, so much.  He can truly be the best- and worst- person I have ever met.  It really is amazing how one person can change so much. 

For tonight, I will not be answering the phone and I hope to finish "Stop Walking on Eggshells". 

I really do not know what else I can do.  Just keep my head down and try not to think about the ugly things he's spewing.

[RahButter]

My heart goes out to you. Stay strong and remember that by maintaining boundaries for how you'll allow him (or for that matter anyone) to treat you, you're not only giving yourself what you need to be healthy, but you are pushing him in the right direction as well. I think that giving him the boundary in a loving way as you have done will go a long way towards him trusting you when things have normalized.

I have an agreement with my SO that if he is spiraling and engaging in overly negative, abusive, or exhausting communication with me, I will calmly do just what you have done, and let him know that I will be happy to talk with him when he is calm (not drinking, etc., whatever it is that is preventing you from having healthy communication with him).

At the very least, this will give you the mental space to recover from the initial part of the cycle of his dysfunctional response to fears via abuse, manipulation, etc. At the end of the day he is responsible for his own emotions and you have a right to peace in your life.

Take care.

[Concerned2020]

Rah, you are absolutely right about making that agreement.  The next time I speak with him, I will do exactly that.  The typical binge drinking episode lasts about 2.5 days, so I would expect to speak with him at some point today.  I am going to take some time before speaking with him to establish the exact rules so there is no gray area. 

I really appreciate the input.  Thank you

[once removed]

with regard to disclosure and access, and privacy:

its a balance, and the answer, at least in terms of your relationship, is not always a simple one.

my ex was a huge snooper, and she would, inevitably, pick fights over anything she saw, and they could last for hours on end. i would tend to react by tightening up my privacy. you had one person who needs privacy to feel safe in a relationship, and the other who considers it to be hiding something. while i tend to come down on one side, neither are ultimately invalid.

at the end of the day, you have a conflict between a need for transparency, and a need for privacy. ultimately, it isnt about who is right or wrong, its about how, and whether or not you can resolve that conflict. and its not easy...especially since i suspect he would have difficulty keeping to any agreed upon rules. snooping is kind of an impulsive thing (im guilty of having done it myself) fueled by insecurity, and it can be a hard habit to break.

i do particularly like this workshop on how to deal with a jealous partner: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=78324.0

your marriage is going to be very difficult to repair or make improvements on if the physical abuse and the substance abuse arent nipped in the bud. why? because they not only make each other worse, they make everything worse. they can make the counseling process worse, and vice versa. when a person with bpd traits enters solo therapy, substance abuse tends to be the primary focus if it exists (they wont even tend to diagnose bpd until it is treated). it is very difficult to make progress elsewhere, and it tests the commitment necessary for improvement beyond that.

[Concerned2020]

Thank you Once Removed.

I just saw my T this morning and it was her ultimate recommendation for me to focus more on me, and a lot less on him.  Set the boundary that until he accepts help with substance abuse and all other abuse issues, there should be only minimal contact until the acute issues get addressed.  She thinks that I've been sidetracked in my own therapy with his issues, and trying to always "manage" his moods.  She let me know that she sees a huge change in me, in the topics we cover, and in my focus and she would like to redirect me back to the initial goal of healing MY core issues.

 She suggests that I double down and recommit to my EMDR.  We've come up against a really tough topic for me, and I have been procrastinating about it.  I absolutely hate EMDR, but I have seen lots of benefits from it in my life.  So, double down I will and focus on my own healing for now. 

Very good advice Once Removed.  As far as the privacy issues, I am interested in that link and I will look into that now.  Thank you very much