Holiday Weekend Drama

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So, it's been about a month since I've last seen my ex step son. As some of you know, my exBPDw cut off my visitation when I told her I had to block her calls and texts for my sanity. However, she recently got him a phone and we have been allowed to text each other--and so we have been for the last couple weeks.

Anyway, on Sunday morning, she sent me an email (from her email address with my last name, which she never legally took by the way!), asking if I wanted to take my exSS7 for the 4th of July. I immediately responded, saying absolutely and asking when/where I should pick him up. She told me I could get him from her mom's house. As I went to type a response to finalize that plan, she sent a quick email, saying:

"Actually, nevermind. I'm going to keep him with me for the 4th. Sorry. I don't want him to have to answer any of [my sister's] kids awkward questions. Sorry. Enjoy the rest of your holiday weekend."

Total power play on her part. Get me excited for the chance to see him, then revoke. A few minutes later, she sent a bunch of pictures of him from the past month. Mostly all pictures of him playing around her boyfriend's apartment. It's nice to see pictures of him, but it seemed like she was in the mood to mess with my head. Anyway, I thanked her and moved on.

-----------------------------------------

As for another incident... .my exBPDw's boyfriend's exgirlfriend got in contact with me about a week ago. I was on the fence about meeting her, but after a week of solid texting back and forth, I finally agreed to hang out. We met up and hung out for a few hours on Sunday, casually discussing our exes as well as just getting to know each other. We've sort of become friends from bonding over both getting abandoned and cheated on by our partners.

Anyway, late night yesterday, I get messages from this woman. She said she went to see the fireworks and ran into my exBPDw, her boyfriend and my exSS there. This is where it gets really tricky. My exBPDw emailed me around the same time, saying:

"[boyfriend's] ex stalked us uptown and started shouting at  [SS7]. If you are interacting with her, please stop. We are filing a restraining order tomorrow.

This will be the third time I have had to talk to the cops about her. She says you are "really good friends" and that she is following us and recording us FOR YOU. I don't believe her, but if it is true, just hire a real private investigator or something. [boyfriend's ex] is seriously unhinged. She scares me, and she scared [SS7]."

I called this woman to get her side of the story. According to her, she was at the fireworks and was video chatting with her friend, not recording. She supposedly didn't talk to them at all, and that they noticed her before she noticed them. She was very upset that they told the cop to speak with her and that she was minding her own business. When asked how my exBPDw even knew that we were friends (which I was angry about), she said that my ex must have overheard it when she was talking to the cops.

Now I fully realize that forming a friendship with this woman was a huge mistake. I know my exBPDw is a huuugggeee liar, and that the woman may not have been recording or yelling at them at all, but... .I don't want to maintain a relationship with any of these people regardless. I did get the feeling that she may have been lying about what happened. So I can't trust my exBPDw and now I can't trust her. Makes me exhausted. I thought that forming a relationship with her would help me gain perspective, get some insight and possibly a little closure, but instead it just brought me drama. Is everyone a liar? Is everyone crazy... .?

[thrownforaloop]

So, it's been about a month since I've last seen my ex step son. As some of you know, my exBPDw cut off my visitation when I told her I had to block her calls and texts for my sanity. However, she recently got him a phone and we have been allowed to text each other--and so we have been for the last couple weeks.

Anyway, on Sunday morning, she sent me an email (from her email address with my last name, which she never legally took by the way!), asking if I wanted to take my exSS7 for the 4th of July. I immediately responded, saying absolutely and asking when/where I should pick him up. She told me I could get him from her mom's house. As I went to type a response to finalize that plan, she sent a quick email, saying:

"Actually, nevermind. I'm going to keep him with me for the 4th. Sorry. I don't want him to have to answer any of [my sister's] kids awkward questions. Sorry. Enjoy the rest of your holiday weekend."

Total power play on her part. Get me excited for the chance to see him, then revoke. A few minutes later, she sent a bunch of pictures of him from the past month. Mostly all pictures of him playing around her boyfriend's apartment. It's nice to see pictures of him, but it seemed like she was in the mood to mess with my head. Anyway, I thanked her and moved on.

-----------------------------------------

As for another incident... .my exBPDw's boyfriend's exgirlfriend got in contact with me about a week ago. I was on the fence about meeting her, but after a week of solid texting back and forth, I finally agreed to hang out. We met up and hung out for a few hours on Sunday, casually discussing our exes as well as just getting to know each other. We've sort of become friends from bonding over both getting abandoned and cheated on by our partners.

Anyway, late night yesterday, I get messages from this woman. She said she went to see the fireworks and ran into my exBPDw, her boyfriend and my exSS there. This is where it gets really tricky. My exBPDw emailed me around the same time, saying:

"[boyfriend's] ex stalked us uptown and started shouting at  [SS7]. If you are interacting with her, please stop. We are filing a restraining order tomorrow.

This will be the third time I have had to talk to the cops about her. She says you are "really good friends" and that she is following us and recording us FOR YOU. I don't believe her, but if it is true, just hire a real private investigator or something. [boyfriend's ex] is seriously unhinged. She scares me, and she scared [SS7]."

I called this woman to get her side of the story. According to her, she was at the fireworks and was video chatting with her friend, not recording. She supposedly didn't talk to them at all, and that they noticed her before she noticed them. She was very upset that they told the cop to speak with her and that she was minding her own business. When asked how my exBPDw even knew that we were friends (which I was angry about), she said that my ex must have overheard it when she was talking to the cops.

Now I fully realize that forming a friendship with this woman was a huge mistake. I know my exBPDw is a huuugggeee liar, and that the woman may not have been recording or yelling at them at all, but... .I don't want to maintain a relationship with any of these people regardless. I did get the feeling that she may have been lying about what happened. So I can't trust my exBPDw and now I can't trust her. Makes me exhausted. I thought that forming a relationship with her would help me gain perspective, get some insight and possibly a little closure, but instead it just brought me drama. Is everyone a liar? Is everyone crazy... .?

[seenr]

They are not all crazy but the old saying cones into play

'People who are hurt, hurt people'

Seems like this girl is hurting so who knows if she did record them or not. Just mind yourself.

[thrownforaloop]

They are not all crazy but the old saying cones into play

'People who are hurt, hurt people'

Seems like this girl is hurting so who knows if she did record them or not. Just mind yourself.

Thanks.  That's smart.  The unfortunate thing is that our conversations were making us both feel a bit better before this drama happened.  It was nice to have someone who was going through the exact same situation.  But,  then again,  maybe we were enabling each other to wallow for longer than we should. 

[once removed]

hey thrownforaloop 

Makes me exhausted. I thought that forming a relationship with her would help me gain perspective, get some insight and possibly a little closure, but instead it just brought me drama. Is everyone a liar? Is everyone crazy... .?

sorry to hear things turned out this way. i must admit ive felt similarly. its only relatively recently that i realized there was a payoff in the drama for me, and what that payoff was. no, i didnt like drama, but i found myself in these situations i felt i didnt want to be in, usually playing a similar role, wondering why this seemed to happen, trusting others and myself less. the good news is no not everyone is a liar or crazy.

have you had the opportunity to read about The Karpman Drama Triangle? 

[thrownforaloop]

sorry to hear things turned out this way. i must admit ive felt similarly. its only relatively recently that i realized there was a payoff in the drama for me, and what that payoff was. no, i didnt like drama, but i found myself in these situations i felt i didnt want to be in, usually playing a similar role, wondering why this seemed to happen, trusting others and myself less. the good news is no not everyone is a liar or crazy.

have you had the opportunity to read about The Karpman Drama Triangle? 

What was the payoff for you?

And yes, thanks, I actually did come across that recently.  Although, I didn't think we were forming a triangle since I've been attempting NC with my exBPDw. I thought this was more of talking through the pain of being dumped together, since the relationship is over for certain.  But,  maybe it's still unhealthy.  The ex's bf's ex seems very troubled and hurt for sure.

[once removed]

triangulation is not inherently bad - there is unhealthy triangulation and healthy triangulation. talking through the pain of being dumped together can be either one. maintaining boundaries and practicing some caution usually make the difference. learning to spot them, and recognize the difference can bring a lot of balance to ones life.

hint: the roles on the triangle can shift, and there are (were) at least four people involved here.

"payoff" was probably a poor choice of words because its subtle - more accurate to say i began to recognize what drew me in. it was eye opening for me to read that the role we tend to find ourselves in the most, we often learn in childhood. the payoff can be anything from distraction, vindication, one or more parties getting their needs met, or even gaining a sense of self worth. its a comfort zone. and i reiterate, there is healthy triangulation.  

having said all that, it sounds like you have found the way off the triangle(s). whats your plan?

[thrownforaloop]

once removed, thank you for your insightful responses. Under these circumstances, with this woman, I think it was an unhealthy triangle. She would tell me how abandoned/hurt she felt and I would tell her how crappy our exes were as people. That she deserves better, etc. And she would do the same for me. Anyway, now that I'm analyzing it--probably not the best thing to do. I'm sure there were ways I could have been a better husband to my ex... .not all of the blame needs to go to her.

My plan was telling my exBPDw's boyfriend's ex that I didn't feel comfortable being friends, which I did last night. I told her that what I feared had come true--that by associating with her, I got roped back into drama with my ex. And that I would rather play it safe and cut out all people even remotely associated with my ex. She took it really hard--I think she had displaced some feelings onto me. She was telling me that it wasn't fair that our exes could ruin our relationship and that she really liked me--she didn't want to lose what we have, etc. All intense words, considering we have only been talking for one week. I'm glad to have done it. It kind of proved that she's not thinking rationally and could potentially be a problem.

Did your experiences/realizations help you to not need the third party? Or do you acknowledge your roll and use a triangle to your advantage?

[once removed]

i dont mean to monday morning quarterback here, just some observations with an eye toward the future:

there was an element of risk involved, sure. two hurting people can feed each others hurt, or keep each other stuck. one or both can place unreasonable expectations on the other; theres a risk of dependency, a risk of one moving faster than the other, etc. theres the risk of what you feared - this was more or less a stranger, after all, and it sounds like trust hadnt been built and things moved quickly. for that matter, where does the bond go when youve both talked it out of yourselves and theres nothing left in common?

on the other hand, on this site you have a whole group of folks hurting over similar circumstances supporting each other. obviously there are some key differences, like anonymity, but obviously two or more hurt people bonding over their circumstances is not an inherently bad thing, only that that dynamic can become one without boundaries.

this dynamic could have evolved more slowly and with greater caution. would that have made a difference in the outcome? not necessarily, but maybe. youre both hurt by the outcome now, and both putting the blame elsewhere. again, thats not to say you made the wrong decision, or to monday morning quarterback, but with an eye toward avoiding these outcomes in the future. relationships of all kinds, which may include more challenging personalities and/or boundary busters, are a fact of life, and one can learn to navigate them with tools and skills.

nothing inherently wrong with involving a third party. i vent/rant to my friends or family about someone who makes me angry or frustrates me, or upsets me. sometimes i seek validation or its offered - i try not to over rely on it, and i either just want to be listened to, or given constructive support/advice. i try to be mindful and not drag others in, or put myself at risk. likewise, i try not to get dragged into the drama of others, or drag myself in, but i try to give of myself freely, with boundaries. on the other hand ive gained the confidence to state my needs to others. to answer your other question, the insidious thing about the karpman drama triangle is that, if not consciously, all parties are trying to use the triangle to their advantage.

if you havent, you can learn more about boundaries here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

practical examples: BOUNDARIES: Case studies  

  

[thrownforaloop]

Thanks once removed, again this information is very helpful.

You make good points about the development of the relationship and the "nothing left in common" worry. Though, I must admit, our texts became quite flirty at times (by both parties) as well as talking about hobbies, work, etc. and after she met me in person, she wanted to sleep together. I turned this down, as I thought it was a bad idea given our circumstances. I guess my point is that we were awkwardly building something a little outside "just two exes". 

I do think that we should have taken things slower, but as you are getting at, it's in the past so I can't change that now. Going forward, I know I'll have to purposefully slow the conversations down, because otherwise it just goes way too fast for me to keep up emotionally.

Thank you so much for the links to the boundaries. They are something I truly struggle with. Reading through them, I'm almost proud of myself. When I look at it from afar this is what happened overall: I told her we can talk and be friends, but only if there is no drama and she doesn't give me unwanted details about my exBPDw. She agreed, but then drama came and she let my exBPDw find out that we were friends, which got me in trouble. So I actually stuck to my boundary and unfriended her from my life, since she broke her promise.

That may not sound like much, but it's huge for me. Back when I was still with my wife, I couldn't stick to my boundaries at all. I let her walk all over me and was too afraid to both tell her my boundaries as well as enforce them. The fact that I clearly told this new woman what I wasn't comfortable with and followed through to stick to it, is progress for me.

That being said, I've been extremely down today. I'm almost certain it's because I've lost this new person who I had been texting non stop for the past week. I know I made the right decision (at this point in time) to cut her out, and I'm sticking to that... .even though texting her would make me feel a heck of a lot less lonely and sad right now. See? Progress.

[once removed]

You make good points about the development of the relationship and the "nothing left in common" worry. Though, I must admit, our texts became quite flirty at times

... .

and after she met me in person, she wanted to sleep together.

and theres the payoff/hook/draw; probably very smart thinking turning it down. you might have had one or two vulnerable parties even more vulnerable, increased expectations, and instant gratification can even inhibit the grieving process. nice boundary. i find personally, even when over the top attention (my exes idealizing) makes me uncomfortable, theres something about it that is alluring. perhaps you can relate?

So I actually stuck to my boundary and unfriended her from my life, since she broke her promise.

thats a key with boundaries: one must be prepared to back them up with actions. it sounds huge to me too, nice job.

im sorry to hear youre feeling down, thrownforaloop. i can imagine the void, not only the loss of the flattery, which might boost confidence, but simply the expenditure of time and investment, as well as the loss of the connection; very draining. what sorts of things can you do to fill the absence?

[thrownforaloop]

i find personally, even when over the top attention (my exes idealizing) makes me uncomfortable, theres something about it that is alluring. perhaps you can relate?

Does she still give you attention? But yes, I can certainly relate. But something very alluring about this woman was she was rebuilding my confidence, in a way. After seeing me, she said that I was so attractive that she would choose me over her ex (the man who my exBPDw left me for). That made me feel good--not just because it was a compliment, but because it's verification that I'm not some ogre in comparison to the man my ex chose over me. Even so, I'm glad we didn't sleep together. Would have made things unnecessarily complicated.

what sorts of things can you do to fill the absence?

Thanks for the words of encouragement. And to fill the absence, I've got family that I'm living with to talk to, and I've made plans to see some  friends this weekend. When I get extremely lonely or sad, I just watch a funny show to distract. Or come to the boards.  It helps.

What do you do when you're going through the downs?

[once removed]

no, thrown, its been years since weve spoken. if theres a silver lining, its that just because youve removed her from your life, doesnt mean that what she said wasnt true, or that the boost to your confidence has to disappear. likewise, your exes actions are more about her attachment issues, less about how attractive you are; i know sometimes that seems a small comfort, but its important to keep in mind. meanwhile, there are lots of ways to rebuild your confidence, namely surrounding yourself with healthy, positive, supportive and encouraging people (sounds like youre doing that), male or female, but also getting back into hobbies and skills that may have gone by the wayside, and perhaps especially, finding new ones. i dove a little deeper into cooking, for example.

laughter is healing, so watching a funny show when youre lonely or sad is very therapeutic, i do that often, as well as the things mentioned (spending time with and/or leaning on friends). for me personally, creative outlets are especially therapeutic, doing either something new or something thats gone by the wayside (not huge on golf but sometimes i remember hey, the driving range sounds like a good time!), and im partial to retro video/computer games. stuff that gives me a sense of accomplishment really balances those feelings. 

[thrownforaloop]

likewise, your exes actions are more about her attachment issues, less about how attractive you are; i know sometimes that seems a small comfort, but its important to keep in mind.

Thanks, I keep trying to remind myself that she has issues and that this was bound to happen. Some days it's much harder to depersonalize what happened than others. It's really difficult to avoid that nagging thought,  'I must not be good enough'. But then I spend time reading everyone's accounts of living with a pwBPD and take comfort in the text book stages the relationships go through. 

for me personally, creative outlets are especially therapeutic, doing either something new or something thats gone by the wayside

That's great. That's sort of for me too--just have a hard time focusing this week especially. I think I'll try doing some creative projects today though. Anyway, thanks for the responses, and hope you have a nice weekend!