How do I disengage from this?

[kiwigal]

Bit of background: My in laws have been treating me as the scapegoat in the family for a long time. This game stems from my uBPD MIL. They frequently discuss me behind my back, as a sort of common ground enemy, and it creates a lot of pain for me. For a long time I thought I was losing my mind.
After getting something of a confession (without an apology), I invited my in-laws to talk about how this felt for me, with a counsellor. I tried this, from many angles, including "let's just talk about some goals going forward". But after 9 months of hearing excuses, and my in laws refusing to engage with me, but choosing to go through my hubby and creating triangulation, I withdrew that invitation, using BIFF. (ie, I dropped my end of the rope). Ive since maintained minimal contact, but always polite.

Tonight I have got this text. It's really long and complicated and Im not sure exactly what I should respond, in a way to stay out of the BPD triangulation and games.. help?

We have given a great deal of consideration, along with the previous matters, to your invite to discuss the things that concern you and that have broken your trust in us. We don't know what those things are and honestly are not comfortable with the term 'invite' as an invite is free to be declined with no ramifications. If we don't wish to have the sort of conversations with you both that you suggest, the elephant will still be in the room and who can sustain these undercurrents?
Therefore, as your invite has been withdrawn, due to it being to us both, not just dad, and my ill health, perhaps we could introduce a new terminology

[kiwigal]

sorry, it seems to cut the rest of the message off...

 How about we set up a time to create the basis of an 'understanding' between us?
These are our thoughts for you both to digest and hopefully they'll be helpful and you'll appreciate them.
We would like to set aside a date to meet together and for us to hear what you have to say. (We would not be asking for a meeting to discuss our perspectives. And we would ask you both to consider whether as we have lived first hand through relationships you haven't experienced yet, therefore possibly having bruises you can't truly feel, we may, in some areas, be a little wiser for that.)
If you would like to have this meeting and try to create an understanding between us, these are the options we would want to put in place from our perspective,
and the manner we would hope to approach responding to the issues you want to discuss.
Firstly we may feel able to discuss an issue fully OR
Secondly we may be only able to have limited discussion on it OR
Thirdly we may not feel able to discuss it at all, but having listened will go home and pray about it. At some future meeting we would then move through options 1+2 , or having prayed about it, we may still not feel it appropriate to discuss it at all, whereby we would have to agree to disagree.
In all the Options there has to be the right to agree or disagree as a final, even if sad, outcome. However we pray we can be adult and Christian in attitude -enough to stop this being destructive in our love for each other as family.
In addition, all the above issues need to relate to the relationship between the four of us only. Our own self is the sole part we can control. The chicks have flown from Mother hen and she has had enough of having her feathers being pulled out in trying to keep them in the nest!

[Kwamina]

Hi kiwigal

There seems to be quite some passive-aggressiveness contained in the message you received, such as:

And we would ask you both to consider whether as we have lived first hand through relationships you haven't experienced yet, therefore possibly having bruises you can't truly feel, we may, in some areas, be a little wiser for that.
…..
The chicks have flown from Mother hen and she has had enough of having her feathers being pulled out in trying to keep them in the nest!

When I read the entire message, to me it sounds like they are on the one hand twisting reality and on the other stating rules they want you to adhere to. How do you feel about this?

Since this has been going on for 9 months and you had already withdrawn your invitation, I do not necessarily see a reason to respond to this text. How exactly did you withdraw the invitation and how long ago was that?

Has your husband also read the text you received?

The Board Parrot

[kiwigal]

Yes, I felt that the message was very passive aggressive. Yes it was sent to both my husband and I.

I withdrew the invitation back end of March (after 9 months). In that email, I clarified what my original invitation had been, that I hoped it would create understanding. I expressed that I respected that there was space needed to heal and was therefore withdrawing the invitation at this time.

Theres so much I could say to reply - but my ultimate goal, at this time, is to disengage and stop becoming entangled.
The way they "hook" me is by treating me in the 'parent/child' relationship, rather than engaging me as an adult. Because I wasn't strongly individuated, before marriage, I am now trying to gain back a sense of sovereignty and self, and naturally thats being kicked up against.

I am at a point though, of wondering if Im needing to issue a clearer message?

[kiwigal]

Hi kiwigal

There seems to be quite some passive-aggressiveness contained in the message you received, such as:
When I read the entire message, to me it sounds like they are on the one hand twisting reality and on the other stating rules they want you to adhere to. How do you feel about this?

oh gosh yes. No room for negotiation and all on their terms. At the end of the message they had written that they didn't want to be held to not talking to other family members. It just feels so ridiculous to me. Both my hubby and I feel really angry, to be honest. Not that thats helpful.. but were just both mad

Since this has been going on for 9 months and you had already withdrawn your invitation, I do not necessarily see a reason to respond to this text. How exactly did you withdraw the invitation and how long ago was that?

Has your husband also read the text you received?

The Board Parrot

[Panda39]

This feels like one of those rock and hard place things...a double bind.  I feel like you are being set up for something if you go and you will be blamed for non-cooperation if you decline.

What kind of relationship do you want with your in-laws? The bigger question to me is do you think they are even capable of having the kind of relationship you hope for? (Is all this conflict and drama even worth your energy?) Where does your husband stand on the relationship with his Parents?  Are you two in agreement as a couple about the relationship you would like to have? What would make this interaction with the in-laws work for you?  Would going back to adding a therapist in the mix make the conversation more do-able for you?

Panda39

[kiwigal]

This feels like one of those rock and hard place things...a double bind.  I feel like you are being set up for something if you go and you will be blamed for non-cooperation if you decline.

What kind of relationship do you want with your in-laws? The bigger question to me is do you think they are even capable of having the kind of relationship you hope for? (Is all this conflict and drama even worth your energy?) Where does your husband stand on the relationship with his Parents?  Are you two in agreement as a couple about the relationship you would like to have? What would make this interaction with the in-laws work for you?  Would going back to adding a therapist in the mix make the conversation more do-able for you?

Panda39

It really is a double bind. I saw it coming to be honest and have been feeling anxious about how to handle it.
I want a very low key relationship with my in laws, so does my hubby. We're both in agreement that just keeping things 'polite' works for us.
The only thing that would make this interaction with the in laws work, for me, is adult negotiation. So I think that maybe going back to saying "My terms are we meet with a therapist", at least holds a good boundary. It's really unlikely they will do it.. so I need to have ready, or communicate, my bottom line so that there is no room for them to misconstrue or create these 'double binds'.

[kiwigal]

How does this email read as a reply? (I haven't sent it)..

Hi,

To reiterate, the invitation was always to seek understanding, which from my perspective, is a two way road of adults talking and negotiating, in a safe setting.
I can hear that amongst many reasons, including; your needing to heal, your own busyness and your past experience that you mention, has meant, you feel wary.
I respect that.

If you ever want to pick this up again, in the safety of the counselling room, please let me know. I’d like to move on now, as amongst respecting your decision, I also am very busy with study and unable to give time to this, as an ongoing issue.

[Sirnut]

Hi kiwigal

I normally post on another board, but for some reason this thread caught my attention and I went back and read some of your earlier posts.

From what you’ve said, it seems clear your most important relationship is with your husband, not the in-laws. You’ve expressed a Christian understanding of all this and so it seems appropriate to quote a bible verse about it: *Let marriage be held in honour among all* (Heb 13:4). I think you and your husband both believe in that. So there can be no question of the in-laws triangulating you - the two of you need to have a united front whatever happens.

It sounds as though your husband is fully on board with all this, and that is a great blessing. I believe that if you trust each other to stick together, the conflicts with the in-laws won’t feel so threatening.

Your immediate question is how to respond to this latest message from the parents in law. I agree it looks overly prescriptive and demanding on you.

One option is, don’t respond at all. Really, you don’t have to, just focus on your own life and family. Your in-laws had ample time to respond to your concerns earlier, and now you can take your time too. It seems like you are a very polite and considerate person, and you feel like you should respond quickly, but really you don’t need to.

If you do respond, I think it’s a good idea to keep it simple, direct, emotionless, yet respectful. No matter how carefully crafted, a lengthy and intricate response risks giving them something to argue with or take offence at.

You have to be comfortable with the exact words obviously, but based on what you’ve said so far, I’d suggest something simple along the lines of *Thanks for your message, I really appreciate it. On reflection, I still think the issues we need to discuss would be best handled in a counseling environment, though I do understand your wariness about that. I’m fairly busy at the moment, but if you see value in pursuing it further, I’m content to wait until we’re all ready. Thanks for getting in touch, see you soon.*

It’s just an outline obviously but I think something like this would be constructive and would set out your boundaries without giving them something they can use against you.

Sorry if I’ve got too specific here, hope it all works out for you.

[nomodrama]

Hi kiwigal,
I agree with Sirnut, and I like their version of the email.
You are and were being very considerate of them.
If it were me, I would make the therapist visit non-negotiable before you move on.
Sounds like there is some sort of parent hierarchy they wont let go of.
I would not give them anymore information about you than they than "need to know".
I've been doing that with my anxious, worrying, sibling drama triangle and so far it works, the less info they have on my life, the less spinning of drama and twisting words, less reading their own meanings into my action or nonaction. I give them less ammunition to use against me.
I also let go of the fact they will believe what they want regardless. What other people think is not my business. I can't change them.

FYI just throwing this out: 'Loving What Is,' by Byron Katie is a great audio book for learning how to break down bad thinking and rumination.

[kiwigal]

Hi kiwigal

I normally post on another board, but for some reason this thread caught my attention and I went back and read some of your earlier posts.

From what you’ve said, it seems clear your most important relationship is with your husband, not the in-laws. You’ve expressed a Christian understanding of all this and so it seems appropriate to quote a bible verse about it: *Let marriage be held in honour among all* (Heb 13:4). I think you and your husband both believe in that. So there can be no question of the in-laws triangulating you - the two of you need to have a united front whatever happens.

It sounds as though your husband is fully on board with all this, and that is a great blessing. I believe that if you trust each other to stick together, the conflicts with the in-laws won’t feel so threatening.

Your immediate question is how to respond to this latest message from the parents in law. I agree it looks overly prescriptive and demanding on you.

One option is, don’t respond at all. Really, you don’t have to, just focus on your own life and family. Your in-laws had ample time to respond to your concerns earlier, and now you can take your time too. It seems like you are a very polite and considerate person, and you feel like you should respond quickly, but really you don’t need to.

If you do respond, I think it’s a good idea to keep it simple, direct, emotionless, yet respectful. No matter how carefully crafted, a lengthy and intricate response risks giving them something to argue with or take offence at.

You have to be comfortable with the exact words obviously, but based on what you’ve said so far, I’d suggest something simple along the lines of *Thanks for your message, I really appreciate it. On reflection, I still think the issues we need to discuss would be best handled in a counseling environment, though I do understand your wariness about that. I’m fairly busy at the moment, but if you see value in pursuing it further, I’m content to wait until we’re all ready. Thanks for getting in touch, see you soon.*

It’s just an outline obviously but I think something like this would be constructive and would set out your boundaries without giving them something they can use against you.

Sorry if I’ve got too specific here, hope it all works out for you.

This is soo good! Thank you! I so appreciated your response and I am sure God brought my post to your attention, Ive been praying for wisdom and you nailed it for me.
One of my core values is being available and responsive to family, but the difficulty I have is the parent/ child role means I feel obliged to respond, whereas they don't.
 
Giving myself space, actually allows myself to disengage out of the obligation that feeds into that parent/ child arena again, and to focus on what truly matters.

I completely agree with you, that they will find offence with whatever we or I write and say. The danger is, anything in writing, gets brought up later down the line, misconstrued etc. So actually, not responding, feels right for now. What I realised, when you wrote that, was that it enabled me to move into a space of personal dignity and to focus on keeping unity in my marriage.

Thank you so much!

[kiwigal]

Hi kiwigal,
I agree with Sirnut, and I like their version of the email.
You are and were being very considerate of them.
If it were me, I would make the therapist visit non-negotiable before you move on.
Sounds like there is some sort of parent hierarchy they wont let go of.
I would not give them anymore information about you than they than "need to know".
I've been doing that with my anxious, worrying, sibling drama triangle and so far it works, the less info they have on my life, the less spinning of drama and twisting words, less reading their own meanings into my action or nonaction. I give them less ammunition to use against me.
I also let go of the fact they will believe what they want regardless. What other people think is not my business. I can't change them.

FYI just throwing this out: 'Loving What Is,' by Byron Katie is a great audio book for learning how to break down bad thinking and rumination.

Oh boy did you hit it on the head when you spoke about my sense of obligation to being considerate.. and their insistence of holding me in the parent/ child hierarchy. My counsellor identified that too and said that that is where I get 'hooked'.
They constantly define and redefine that parental role through expressing loaded ideas about being wiser/ more Godly/ more experienced etc.
When I looked back, they established that quite inappropriately, from the outset, and had I been more individuated in myself, I would have pushed back. Harder to do now, but never too late  
Thank you for that book recommendation.. I will have a listen! I definitely struggle with rumination when I get trapped into the FOG (especially guilt). Its an area of growth and I appreciate your recommendations.

[GaGrl]

There were a few "hooks" in your original message that could have given them language to object to or use as a lever. I'm glad other suggestions were to limit it to simpler messages.

What message can communicate your primary value and boundary without getting into unnecessary details?  I'm hearing that the sanctity of your marriage is a vale and boundary.

 "Thank you for your message. Spouse and I have been focused on strengthening our marriage, which is of primary importance to us. We welcome the opportunity to talk with you and a third-party therapist in a counseling session, as we value clear and healthy family relationships.

This l the be clunky and not sound like you. But what can you say that is crystal clear and leaves little room for them to misinterpret?

[kiwigal]

There were a few "hooks" in your original message that could have given them language to object to or use as a lever. I'm glad other suggestions were to limit it to simpler messages.

What message can communicate your primary value and boundary without getting into unnecessary details?  I'm hearing that the sanctity of your marriage is a vale and boundary.

 "Thank you for your message. Spouse and I have been focused on strengthening our marriage, which is of primary importance to us. We welcome the opportunity to talk with you and a third-party therapist in a counseling session, as we value clear and healthy family relationships.

This l the be clunky and not sound like you. But what can you say that is crystal clear and leaves little room for them to misinterpret?

Thank you so much for your help, I really liked your point about keeping to our core values. I ended up sending a brief text to buy me some thinking time. I thanked them for writing and said that I was unable to give this the due attention at the moment, but that Id come back to them later. And that I was looking forward to celebrating their anniversary with them.

I got an immediate response that said "quite understand, you know our thoughts, so just come back to us when you're ready."

It's at least given me some time to process things through.

There really isn't anything to be gained, in talking to them, even with a counsellor, so I need to close that invite permanently, and keep moving the relationship into a new norm, without unleashing the BPD fears and fury.
I have come to realise, that the only real way I can do that, is letting my hubby be the point of contact and negotiation and just being unavailable. Thankfully, my study along with our busy family, provides a very valid excuse for being so busy ;)