IV. Writing an apology letter (Christian discussion)

[understandBPD]

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[Fian]

My thoughts are you never ask for forgiveness when making an apology.  You do your side of repenting, and the person on the other side will make up their own mind on whether they want to forgive you.  In this situation, asking forgiveness has the subtext of "if you forgive me, then you won't divorce me."  We aren't trying to box her into a corner here, but instead showing that there has been a genuine change of heart on your part.  Biblically, I can't think of a verse that says you need to ask a person to forgive you.  I would be interested if anyone knows of one.

Personally, I don't think you should write the apology letter quite yet.  Your goal was to wait a month if I remember, and if you have it all ready to go now, I think you are going to send it way too early.  When you do get to writing it, I would encourage you to share parts of it on this forum.  Not all parts will necessarily be too detailed, some will probably be more general, and we can get an idea of the tone of the letter based on the parts that you do share.

At this point, I don't think you need to ask her father to mediate.  I think his mediation is necessary when she refuses to answer you, and for now, the lines of communication appear open. 

[Skip]

My thoughts are you never ask for forgiveness when making an apology.  You do your side of repenting, and the person on the other side will make up their own mind on whether they want to forgive you.  In this situation, asking forgiveness has the subtext of "if you forgive me, then you won't divorce me."  

Well said.

I wrote about the process of making good apologies and apologizing to your children. I wrote that an apology does not include a request for forgiveness. Asking for forgiveness puts the focus back on you when it should stay on the person who feels hurt or wronged. The decision to forgive is up to the offended person...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/better-divorce/201905/apologies-and-forgiveness-do-they-go-together

Asking for forgiveness could shift the interpretation of the note "he understands me and what needs to be changed" to "he wants something from me".

Which is the reason you are writing the apology?

[understandBPD]

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[Skip]

communications over the last 6 months have widened the divide.

I think this is more to do with time being apart than the communciation / lack off which is why im concerned about waiting such long periods of time e.g a month +.

A drunk driver killed in a car wreck is technically killed by the metal of the car, but...

Your goal was to wait a month if I remember

I did want to wait a month but after she's said she's still persuing divorce it just makes me think she's trying to rush through this to move on and i constantly think if she does end up doing that before i apologize the opportunity to reconcile may pass especially moreso since she knows once she's with someone else there's no going back based on what i've told her and intend to standby.

Before you can go forward, you need to solidify the foundation beneath you. If you go forward with one foot tepidly in the door of change, you will run back to your old ways every time you hit a bump in the road or have an emotional twinge.

Currently, you still "feel in your heart" what you have done for the last six months was the right thing. We've explained why it was not. Action on the ground has overwhelmingly shown you that it is not. But you cling to it. Although disastrous, the path feels unalterable to you.

We strongly suggested not sending the birthday gifts because doing would make things worse and set set the clock back. Can you walk through each of the birthday items and explain what evoked such a negative reaction from her and why? Can you explain why traveling to her country, unannounced, met with such rejection?

• Music box that had our initials
• Cookbook – nutrition for babies/children
• “Letter I Wrote Her” (book about biblical marriage)
• “Excellent wife” (book about biblical marriage, obedience)
• “High Conflict Couple” (BPD couples self-help book)
• Cash
• Flowers (intended, but not sent)
• email (intended, but not sent)
• Cookbook - adult cooking
• Bookmarks that were cat themed
• Band shirt from 1 of her favourite bands
• A letter I wrote her (saying ?)…

I think it will really help to do this postmortem.

[understandBPD]

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[Notwendy]

The issue i have is time is working against me in multiple aspects not only is the divorce timer ticking but the possibility of her trying to move on or a temptation coming along is also another factor this being my red line that i refuse to negotiate on makes it quite urgent. The devil loves situations like this and the more time separated the more the chance of reconciliation decreases and the more opportunities the devil has to exploit manipulate and tempt both of us.

It's easy for you to say these things because you aren't in the situation you have nothing to lose at all. I can wait 1 month plus like you say and then if for example she's moved on your going to say "oh well" and that's the end of my marriage and any chance of reconciliation. If you had something to lose as well then it would make more sense and give what you say more weight.

I want help but the above is what i am trully struggling with every day even though i am working towards improving myself and changing my thoughts feels like another day wasted and another day toward the 7 month mark of separation without any real progress between us. Another day she's bombarded by men chasing her on social media.

The dynamic for men and women is very different or for at least most men we don't have 1000's of women lusting for us and saying they will do anything but most women have a menu of men on there social medias chasing them offering them anything my wife is smart i don't think she's like this but if she see's no other way but divorce and is actually sad or trying to force herself to move on she may be destructive and make mistakes i won't forgive. IF she knows i am actively persuing reconciliation and not giving up on her she does not have any excuses for what she does if she knows im in constant contact with her she has to make that concious decision to commit adultery and hurt me and move on.

This concern of yours is apparent in your posts- your fear that if she's not in contact with you that somehow this will increase her chances of being tempted by someone. The only way someone can be pursued by this many men (it's not possibly to know this many people in our own circles)  is on the internet so I am assuming that her meeting someone on the internet is a worry for you.

One thing to consider is if your fear of her being tempted is based on something she is doing that raises your concern or on your fundamental beliefs about women in general. I am raising the question because what motivates our behavior affects how that behavior is received by the other person.

This has something to do with an email you want to send.  From your posts, I think you are sincere about wanting to apologize and to change, but there's also this urgency to do so before she is tempted to commit adultery - it might change the tone of the email This fear is based on your feelings. She may not have any intentions of doing that. There's no way to know. I don't have an answer for what to write to her or when- that is up to you, but it's something to think about.

[jaded7]

"do you want to be right, or do you want to save your marriage?"

having read this thread with great interest, these are the words that have been repeating in my head.

My ex was like this. She had to win, I had to lose. I told her that she seems to need to be right, she seems to need to win, when we have a disagreement. I told her I just want to be seen and heard, she doesn't have to AGREE with my perspective, just acknowledge that I'm not *wrong* for how I feel. Almost always about something she did to me, called me, or for exploding at me.

Being seen and heard can go a long way. Needing to be right, to 'win', almost always produces a  'loser'. I didn't want to 'win' with my ex, she did. She needed me to lose. This is not good for a relationship- a loser, someone who's been beaten and not seen and heard, doesn't feel good.

[understandBPD]

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[Skip]

The postmortem was to explore what she is feeling. You wrote 199 words on her, surrounded by 1,100 words on how you feel.

[Fian]

One thing about timing.  You realistically have one more shot to save your marriage.  You want to take that shot in the best possible situation.  Waiting a month and succeeding is much better than taking your shot early and failing.  Ultimately, it is counter productive for you to be worrying about what she might do, absent of you.  Part of the issue, is she feels controlled by you.  You trying to control the situation to get a better outcome is going to reinforce that belief.

As for comparing your wife and all women to Jezebel, this is seriously bad thinking.  Two can play that game.  Women could compare men to Adolf Hitler.  Both sexes are fallen and need a savior.  Looking at women as the evil sex has most certainly hurt your marriage relationship.

[understandBPD]

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[Fian]

Evil women do exist, as do evil men.  You seem to view all or most women as evil, which is not Biblical, except that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.  The Bible's warning about evil women was so that you would avoid them.  You chose to marry this one.  Viewing your spouse as evil, is seriously going to limit your ability to reconcile to her.

[Notwendy]

This combined with my belief on women to me just reinforces that they can be extremely spiteful all of the things i have told her about women and she's told me she wouldn't ever do she has started to do so this just reinforces my belief that women have an inherint nature to be spiteful/rebellious and evil and unless there able to tame it and hear Gods word they will go down a path of destruction dragging down whoever they can with them. (Eve , Delilah , Jezebel etc)

She's spoken about demons and has had nightmares and says she could see things in our bedroom shes made comments about fighting a demon inside etc its really not far fetched for me to be on guard against her.

I also did things that may of pushed her to be like this so its partly my fault she wasn't anything like this when we first met. (Something i want to make clear is when i say this stuff i am saying it so people can try to understand why i am feeling the way i do. I want to help my wife i see her someone i have promised myself to for life nothing other than being unfaithful will change that i am here for the long run through good times and bad.)

It's a cycle that repeats i've seen some very spiteful and evil women in my life so i am always on alert and on guard against there behaviour. When she becomes rebellious i defend myself she loses this makes everything worse. Everytime she's been feminine in approach to something she's always gotten her way and been treated well anytime she's decided to go the other way she's lost and its been destructive. She knows this very well so a person can assume if someone continues there rebellious ways they are actively testing you.

The content of my posts has been to try to see how this might feel to your wife, if she has a mental illness but even for someone who doesn't have one, I think it would be difficult to maintain a relationship with someone who believes they are fundamentally prone to evil, spitefulness, and rebelliousness. If we believe that trust is essential to a relationship, then I don't see where trust is possible and I see this in your feeling you must be on guard for such behavior.

I understand you have felt as if people are blaming you and not her. Whatever happened involved both of you, but she's not here posting for advice, you are- so comments are directed at you. While this board is titled the "bettering" board, it often happens that the "bettering" involves what we can do, as we can't control another person.

I think some other posters have mentioned the idea of a "change of heart" but I think this idea is in conflict with your personal religious beliefs and these are paramount for you. Even though your wife also has a part in this, for you, I think this is your own personal struggle- between your religious beliefs that you maintain are the right ones ( even if other people have different ones- these are your fundamental core beliefs) and the possibility of perceiving women, (including your wife) from a different perspective if this perspective is impeding a harmonious marital relationship - not only because of her own nature -whatever you perceive it to be- but because of how this results in your behavior of being on guard and defensive with her. I don't think this is something anyone can influence- this is your own perspective to question or maintain.

It makes sense to be cautious of evil people but if one assumes all women are more prone to evil, then one would inevitably be on guard with all of them.

[Notwendy]

I also don't wish to engage in a Bible debate. I think the best person to answer such questions would be an older married man in a long term marriage who has real life experience to share as to how to implement their beliefs in a marriage and also how they resolved conflicts, because no two people are exactly alike and they need to be able to resolve conflicts in a manner that isn't hurtful to each other. A married man who has achieved this would be the best example for this situation.

I do think the overall challenge for all human beings is to "love one another" and how this happens can be a challenge when someone is not behaving the way we want them to behave. Love isn't about approving and agreeing either, I know that, but it does mean to keep in mind that if one believes all people are capable of evil (both are, even if you believe women have more of it) isn't it also said that all humans are made in the image of God too? If we claim to love God then to love people requires being able to see the aspect of them that reflects the image of God as well. It's easy to do this with people who we see as good. The challenge is to see this in people we don't consider to be good or acting in ways we think they should.

The "change of heart" referred to is what happens when two people in conflict see this aspect in the other, and it's truly a wonder that this happens but I think this can only happen when two people are in a one on one relationship with each other and I don't mean only a romantic one. It could be between friends, teachers- student etc. From what  I have seen, when there's been a change in perspective - and then behavior in people - it's because someone believed in their fundamental goodness. It doesn't mean they ignore unwanted behaviors, but that they believe the person is capable of better.

I don't think anyone can make this happen for anyone else. I think it's a personal choice and often a struggle.

[understandBPD]

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[Notwendy]

What i can't understand is why she just discarded me cut contact cut all emotional ties cut all contact and seemingly done it with ease as if i was a stranger she had met for a day and then left.

Because - whether it's real or not, or you intended it or not, she perceived you as hurting her in some way. You didn't physically harm her but she could perceive emotional harm.

How do I know this? Because my own mother with BPD has also not spoken to me at times over some perceived hurt to her, real or not.

I have written in my other posts that people with a mental illness perceive things differently. We don't know if your wife has BPD. We do know that she has depression.

People with BPD can perceive themselves as victims, even if it isn't intended.

My BPD mother has done and said hurtful things. While I don't condone the kind of behavior- it makes a difference how I perceive it through attempting to understand her perspective because it changes how I interact with her.

If I can understand that she perceives some things I do when interacting with her as hurtful, I can be mindful of that and choose how I respond to her. I can see her as doing/saying things deliberately, being purposely hurtful, or because she is mentally ill, and this changes how I feel about them. If I think she's doing them to me, that feels hurtful. If I think she's responding out of her own hurt because she misperceives me - that changes how I feel and this changes how I respond.

It doesn't mean I walk on eggshells or enable her to treat me poorly but I have to be mindful of my behavior when communicating with her.

Before I understood this, if she's being hurtful, I can get her to back down but when I did, I realized this actually scared her but the reason I reacted like I did was because I was afraid of her and acting out of my feelings. I don't want to interact with her this way and so I need to change my response to her- beginning with examining my own feelings first so I don't react the same way.

I can't say for certain why your wife did what she did but my best guess is that she felt hurt and scared. She also said this to you. She said she could only handle 30 minutes of conversation. While to you this felt controlling and you responded from your own feelings- this could have scared her into shutting down. You mentioned she was abused by her own parents. The "shut down" response is something people do in this situation and might continue to do if they feel scared. It's not something they are doing to you to hurt you. A scared person might run and hide. You didn't intend to scare her, but she may perceive it that way.

It's good you are posting and venting and allowing people to give you feedback.

[Skip]

This started 15 posts ago with the suggestion to do a postmortem to lay a foundation upon which to build an apology. Your thoughts are now at 199 words about her feelings (5%) and 3,800 about yours (95%).

This is where you are right now. Which is OK. It's important to be self-aware.

.	There are things we will need to discuss, but first I would like to take a little time to process this and all that has happened. I need to think about who I am and who I want to be. ~ understandBPD (27/9/23)

It might seem that you need to either (1) take time to processes "all that has happened" and seriously explore "who I am and who I want to be"
-- or--
to (2) fully accept and embrace who you are now and accept what that means to your life and marriage going forward.

Let's talk a minute about the latter... we have not discussed it previously.

Knowing my wife has had a troubled upbringing she's openly admitted to being involved in witchcraft and stuff with demons when she was younger and saying she's paid for her mistakes and then coming to God and being saved and baptized once she met me. .

I didn't realize that a large part of her involvement with Christianity and the IFBM (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Movement) coincided with your courtship and marriage. Her commitment may be different than someone who grew up in the Christian faith or otherwise not as strong as you feel it is (or should be).

Certainly this raises the possibility that leaving one is leaving both (the marriage and the IFBM)? Steven Anderson (founder of the IFBM) says that in the IFBM, a women has three choices. To remain in the marriage, to leave the marriage and not remarry, or to leave the marriage and the church and remarry. There are other, much higher profile christian churches in Iran, like the Armenian Apostolic Church, that may have practices she is more comfortable with now that she has some experience. She may consider a church started by the Apostle Paul, for example, as also being authentic and true to the Bible.

There are 2.3 billion Christians of which 0.0001% are IFBM. She could be at a point in her walk where she is considering or has ventured beyond the 0.0001%. Up to this point (212 posts), such a thing seems untenable for you.

If she doesn't want to come back to the marriage model you have shown her (and/or the church), would you be able to accept Christian beliefs that are not in the 0.0001%?  Or do you walk away to honor your commitment to God?

[understandBPD]

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[Notwendy]

Everyone in this forum has had some experience with relating to someone with BPD, and regardless of one's religious perspective- most people on this forum have given every effort they know to do to make it better. If someone has a broken relationship it may or may not be due to their own decision. But everyone here has something to share.


What I did mean about a role model for what you want is to not dismiss the advice on this board due to whether someone has managed to sustain such relationships or not ( some information might not suit you regardless) but to seek out some mentors in your community as well in a face to face relationship- older couples who have achieved what you wish to do.

Some couples have role models- parents who they grew up with. I mention this because my own role model is my BPD mother and while I may have decided how I wanted to act, what we imagine and what is real life can be different. You mentioned that your father is deceased and so this wasn't something you observed. If your wife has a mother who is abusive, then she didn't observe that either.

Because, theory and practice are different and marriage can be challenging. One can't possibly know all that goes on between any two people. In even my own circle I know couples who have reconciled difficult issues and for some, it was not possible even with their best effort and some through no fault of their own. There are are some couples who I know who do stand out to me as exceptional people and if you know some like this too, they can be role models for you.  

If you are able to reconcile your marriage, then this is your task to take on. If it turns out that it isn't possible, you too have done the best you knew to do with the abilities you have as well.

[Skip]

If you said my wife does not think her husband should have authority over her = same answer [she can have her divorce and best of luck to her.]
If you said my wife no longer wants kids = same answer
If i had to try to put it into context there is probably a 100,000 [other] things i would be willing to be flexible / negotiate and compromise on...

That puts it in context.

i would tend to lean towards someone in a successful marriage who had similar views and beliefs / religion / culture as me because they would be in the best position to advise me.

There are many churches that have marriage bible studies where older couples in the church mentor the younger couples. There are also pastoral counselors like the one you believe your wife is using. Ashkan Amlashi  is married, Iranian, living in the US, a pastor and a psychologist. If you can find someone like this for yourself, I think it would be most helpful.

[Fian]

Yet she grew up in a Christian family around these churches/people rejected them growing up only came to fully embrace Christianity once meeting me and had the free will to choose any church / pastor etc she wanted and she chose the 0.0001% Smiling (click to insert in post)

I do find this significant.  Her decisions for faith and church are rather recent decisions.  These are not her bedrock core beliefs.  While she came to believe what you believed for a period of time, it was easy for her to change her mind when things weren't going well in your marriage.  You arguing that she made agreements with you based on certain beliefs will not be a convincing argument to her.  She changed her mind.

[once removed]

you are in a failed relationship, understandBPD.

your wife is pursuing divorce. i know thats hard to hear, i know right now you dont even want to acknowledge it, but it is the reality of the situation.

i wouldn't go to someone who has a failed marriage and is divorced for advice i would tend to lean towards someone in a successful marriage who had similar views and beliefs / religion / culture as me because they would be in the best position to advise me.

someone who has been in a failed relationship can share with you mistakes that they made, and ways to improve. they can tell you, for example, the things they did that helped kill their relationship, and what they learned from that. it takes a lot of resilience to grow and to learn from that failure, to face the reality that our actions were responsible for destroying something that at one time meant more to us than anything. ironically, its what it often takes to save it, when that is possible.

you can, instead, disrespect it, and i suspect you would do the same to anyone from a "successful marriage" that didnt agree with you, or otherwise mirror your worldview.  

it is hard to watch someone you are trying to help, self destruct, especially when all they have to do, is get out of their own way, and just stop doing what theyve been doing - just stop making things worse. in your assessment of how your communications to her might have been received, you can see the ways youve done/are doing that, but then you turn around and completely dismiss them. maybe you can see them, but they are too hard to accept. i dont know. it is a lot to swallow, and a lot that is being asked of you, in a very difficult time. i doubt i could have set my hurt and perspective aside at the time in order to save my relationship.

what i do know is that you can look at each communication, every single one in isolation, and see her move further away from the marriage and closer to divorce as a direct response. i dont think its a coincidence that after she received the gifts you were warned against sending repeatedly, she told you she was pursuing a divorce. would it have made a difference whom that advice came from? would you even take it back if you could?

if that sounds like blame, it doesnt really take a person who has lived the ideal relationship to see cause and effect.

you have alienated the woman you love, and you are alienating your support system. sometimes, when its you against the world, the world might have a point.

[understandBPD]

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[Fian]

Telling me to not send my wife who i love a birthday gift and wish her happy birthday isn't something i agree with.

Personally, I wasn't telling you to not send a gift; I had an issue with the gifts that you did send.  Sending marriage self help books to a person planning to get a divorce was tone death.  It showed you weren't listening to her and were trying to tell her what she needed to do to save a marriage that she wasn't interested in saving.  If you had just send a card and flowers on her birthday, I don't think people would have objected.  Ironically, the worst part of your gift was received, and she never received the most positive aspect of it.

[understandBPD]

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[Notwendy]

It does feel uncomfortable being the one comments are directed to, but I think the intent is to try to help.

There are two ways people respond to someone sharing their relationship issues. One is- when a person vents, to agree and commiserate, and be understanding. This does have the effect of the person feeling supported and better- but it doesn't lead to any change because it doesn't challenge them to do so.

The other is a way of helping but it's uncomfortable. Since we can only change ourselves, comments directed about our own actions are the ones that are most effective. Feeling angry, as if one is being blamed- yes, it feels this way. But we sometimes can't see what we are doing as clearly as when someone turns the mirror on us.

I don't know if your wife has BPD or not, but if she did, then an unsteady sense of self is a part of it. The beginning of a relationship involved idealization on their part and some mirroring. This isn't them being dishonest. If they aren't sure of who they are, they may think they need to become more like you. Your wife may have been drawn to your way of religious practice, believing that she needs to be more like you. You said the Anderson idea was hers, but also her adopting some of your views was new to her too. She may have been interested in his ideas at the time but these were new ideas to her as was your form of practicing religion. She was not raised in this.

There is theory and there is practice. The concern about Anderson is as Skip said- his following is a small number of people. One would consider him to be at the extremes of practice, controversial, and a larger number of people would have difficulty with his ideas. Of course, everyone is free to choose their own belief system and you are too. I think though we might also imagine that even if your wife thought this might suit her, she had no experience with it and once she did, she realized it was not something she thought it was. The focus on Anderson was to point out that even if she thought it was something she wanted, and you went along with it thinking that, it may not have been the model for marriage that worked.

We asked about her religious background but what about yours? Even if two people are of the same religion, there's variation in practice and no two people have the same family experience. We bring our ideas of how things should be in a marriage and then, we face the reality that there are two people with different ideas. Where does your mother fit into your ideas? Does she agree with them and did she raise you with them?  

[understandBPD]

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[Notwendy]

I think a part of this is that you have formed a sense of what you want in a marriage but without an example of that in your own family. I think this is a common situation. We learn a lot from what we observe growing up and any marriage is a combination of two different people each with their own ideas and the examples we have.

I have friends who are in a form of the relationship model you attain for although I don't know the exact denomination. You speak of control in terms of that relationship. One area that I think caused difficulty is in the carrying out of this concept. Truly, no human wants to be controlled by another to the extent of being submissive. It's humiliating, and attempting this kind of control will result in either pushback- power struggle- or emotional withdrawal for the losing person. One can "win the fight" for power but it's an emotional war with casualties- both people, the relationship, those are the losers.

The couples in this model who appear the happiest are those where the husband may be the breadwinner and the wife in the more traditional role but the wife- with her own individual talents and aspirations are not just "permitted" but supported by the husband because, he knows that these are essential parts of her. She may have family as a priority but also, a job, a talent, and her own hobbies. A husband "giving in" to them ( and then possibly feeling resentful) is not the same as being supportive and it feels different. While you felt your wife was going back on her agreement to be a wife and mother by wanting to tune pianos, it might be that she wanted to do both and neither was a conflict with the other. Jobs are not just a source of income, they can be a passion too. Of the women I know in these more traditional marriages- they are wives, they are mothers, and also have talents, hobbies, professions. Husbands may be breadwinners and have their own interests too.

Every marriage includes compromise but if a spouse diminishes something essential to themselves- something that is a part of who they are- too much, it's not good for them, or their spouse, or the marriage. I agree there are boundaries to this and these are decided between both people. I think the idea of control is more nuanced- it's more about collaboration and voluntary agreements rather than a power conflict with a winner and loser.

I don't know what can be done here but the two of you are at gridlock. You holding on to your stance of who she needs to be and she doesn't fit that mold. Could you backing off some of your stance be effective? I don't know, but if you don't feel you can sincerely be OK with what you back off on, it would cause you to feel resentful and it won't work. I think it also helps to forgive yourself. You did what you felt was the right thing at the time- and it didn't work the way you hoped it would. But we can only do what we know to do at the time and then we learn from it. As to reaching out, perhaps a sincere apology- with no expectations of how she's supposed to respond might at least help with your part in this. On her part, we can't know or predict.

[understandBPD]

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