What does radical acceptance look and feel like?

[vortex of confusion]

I am in an odd place right now. I am not sure if I have reached a place of radical acceptance or if I am shutting down.

I have been working with a sponsor. I have been telling her my story, including stuff from childhood. When I wrote it, I didn't feel angry or upset. I felt like I was simply telling the facts from my biased perspective. I was given what felt like a bit of a lecture about resentment and anger and how it is necessary to let it go, blah, blah, blah.

Sure, I have issues from my FOO. I don't care to think about my FOO most days. They are who they are. How is thinking about crap from my childhood going to help me?

I need to work on boundaries. I can do that without worrying about my FOO. I need to work on some of my tendencies to be passive aggressive. I can do that without thinking about my FOO. Sure, things come up that irritate me and make me mad. I deal with it and move on because I know that nothing with them will ever change. All I can do is set boundaries and deal with things as they come up.

Likewise, there is stuff with my husband that I am getting tired of thinking about. He is who he is. If I am going to stay with him, it seems like my best course of action is to set boundaries, protect myself, and move on.

Part of me really wants to confront him and other family members about some of the things that they have done to me. Another part of me doesn't see the point in any of it. It isn't going to change the past and it very likely isn't going to change the future. They are who they are.

People keep telling me that I need to deal with these issues and address things. What is it that I am supposed to be dealing with? Am I supposed to deal with the hurt that I felt? Sure, lots of stuff has hurt me over the years. Big deal. It is over and done with. I want to move on and live a positive life. I am sick and tired of all of the negativity. Do I really need to be upset and angry all of the time to heal? What the heck does healing even look like? Sure, I have periods where I am angry and am reminded of those hurts. Most of the time, they are just kind of there in the background and I know that the only thing I can do is move on and make sure that it doesn't happen again.

I am wondering if this is radical acceptance, denial, giving up, or just plain exhausted.

Does anybody have any thoughts or input?

[jhkbuzz]

I am in an odd place right now. I am not sure if I have reached a place of radical acceptance or if I am shutting down.

I have been working with a sponsor. I have been telling her my story, including stuff from childhood. When I wrote it, I didn't feel angry or upset. I felt like I was simply telling the facts from my biased perspective. I was given what felt like a bit of a lecture about resentment and anger and how it is necessary to let it go, blah, blah, blah.

Sure, I have issues from my FOO. I don't care to think about my FOO most days. They are who they are. How is thinking about crap from my childhood going to help me?

I need to work on boundaries. I can do that without worrying about my FOO. I need to work on some of my tendencies to be passive aggressive. I can do that without thinking about my FOO. Sure, things come up that irritate me and make me mad. I deal with it and move on because I know that nothing with them will ever change. All I can do is set boundaries and deal with things as they come up.

Likewise, there is stuff with my husband that I am getting tired of thinking about. He is who he is. If I am going to stay with him, it seems like my best course of action is to set boundaries, protect myself, and move on.

Part of me really wants to confront him and other family members about some of the things that they have done to me. Another part of me doesn't see the point in any of it. It isn't going to change the past and it very likely isn't going to change the future. They are who they are.

People keep telling me that I need to deal with these issues and address things. What is it that I am supposed to be dealing with? Am I supposed to deal with the hurt that I felt? Sure, lots of stuff has hurt me over the years. Big deal. It is over and done with. I want to move on and live a positive life. I am sick and tired of all of the negativity. Do I really need to be upset and angry all of the time to heal? What the heck does healing even look like? Sure, I have periods where I am angry and am reminded of those hurts. Most of the time, they are just kind of there in the background and I know that the only thing I can do is move on and make sure that it doesn't happen again.

I am wondering if this is radical acceptance, denial, giving up, or just plain exhausted.

Does anybody have any thoughts or input?

I could have written much of your post about 9 months ago.  I'm not much for navel-gazing; I'm more the "pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get the hell on with it" type. Nobody wants to hear me whine, least of all me.

But this is the thing; you learned EVERYTHING about how to deal with the world from your FOO.  All the good, all the dysfunctional - it all came from your FOO.

I began seeing a T as my r/s was ending 9 months ago; I pretty much told her that I just wanted to deal with the emotions around the b/u and didn't want to start talking about my family or my childhood; it all happened years and years ago; I mean, what's the point?

Right?

9 months in and I'm beginning to see how some of my most basic assumptions about life and people - things that feel self evident and at the very core of who I am - are actually acquired from my FOO, and can be re-examined, challenged and discarded if necessary.

It's been healing and freeing.  I highly recommend it.

[vortex of confusion]

But this is the thing; you learned EVERYTHING about how to deal with the world from your FOO.  All the good, all the dysfunctional - it all came from your FOO.

I am not sure that I agree with that statement. I think that might be true if a person spent their entire life without ever having contact with anybody but the FOO. I learned from people at school, teachers, friends, strangers, and pretty much anybody that I interacted with at different times in my life. I vividly remember being a kid and thinking, "I don't like this" and making a choice to NOT act certain ways. I remember being a kid and thinking that I lived with a bunch of jerks. As a kid, I was very sensitive to violence. I was never spanked. All of my siblings were spanked and then some. I feel like a complete anomaly because I do feel very different from my FOO. I would actively look for other ways of dealing with the world because I sure as heck didn't like the way my family dealt with stuff.  I remember feeling that way even as a kid. There were some things that I liked and thought were pretty cool but there was also a whole lot of stuff that I rejected at an early age.

I don't have the same basic assumptions about life as many of the people in my family. I believe that most people are basically good. I am not saying that I didn't pick up baggage. I did and I have been recognizing it and identifying it and shedding the stuff that I don't like for years. This isn't anything new for me.

[Notwendy]

If you are in a 12 step program, going though resentments and hurts is part of the process. I don't think you see it when you are in the beginning, or even middle, but over time it is possible to see the value in it. Some people go through the steps more than once. Then it takes practice. It isn't an instant recovery but one that is ongoing. I found it worthwhile .

[jhkbuzz]

But this is the thing; you learned EVERYTHING about how to deal with the world from your FOO.  All the good, all the dysfunctional - it all came from your FOO.

I am not sure that I agree with that statement. I think that might be true if a person spent their entire life without ever having contact with anybody but the FOO. I learned from people at school, teachers, friends, strangers, and pretty much anybody that I interacted with at different times in my life. I vividly remember being a kid and thinking, "I don't like this" and making a choice to NOT act certain ways. I remember being a kid and thinking that I lived with a bunch of jerks. As a kid, I was very sensitive to violence. I was never spanked. All of my siblings were spanked and then some. I feel like a complete anomaly because I do feel very different from my FOO. I would actively look for other ways of dealing with the world because I sure as heck didn't like the way my family dealt with stuff.  I remember feeling that way even as a kid. There were some things that I liked and thought were pretty cool but there was also a whole lot of stuff that I rejected at an early age.

I don't have the same basic assumptions about life as many of the people in my family. I believe that most people are basically good. I am not saying that I didn't pick up baggage. I did and I have been recognizing it and identifying it and shedding the stuff that I don't like for years. This isn't anything new for me.

Perhaps what I said was too much of a blanket statement - I didn't mean to imply that you don't learn anything from anyone else.  I also didn't mean to imply that you are just like everyone else in your FOO.

I just re-read your OP - just to refocus. You mentioned your sponsor talked to you about letting go of anger and resentment.  You also mentioned that you can be passive aggressive. Where do you think you learned that method of coping with anger?

[vortex of confusion]

If you are in a 12 step program, going though resentments and hurts is part of the process. I don't think you see it when you are in the beginning, or even middle, but over time it is possible to see the value in it. Some people go through the steps more than once. Then it takes practice. It isn't an instant recovery but one that is ongoing. I found it worthwhile .

I ended my relationship with my sponsor. I felt like I was making a lot of progress. It got to a point where I felt like I could no longer communicate with my sponsor. She is a sweet lady and we could talk about superficial stuff with no problems. When things got pretty meaty, she wanted to overload me with stories about herself and her life. And it felt like there was a lot of lecturing. On one had she would tell me that she wasn't a professional or a therapist and was my friend yet the next minute she is telling me that she is going to make an exception with me and give me the advice that I need professional help. I have explained to her repeatedly that I have been looking for a decent therapist that I can actually afford.

I was never really able to get to my resentments and hurts with her because she seemed to want to really pick at my fears. Since she wanted me to explore that so much, I did. I wrote a bunch of stuff and sent it to her in email. I was tired of 2 and 3 hour phone calls where she be telling me one minute that our calls shouldn't be so long and the next minute she is telling me some kind of long and convoluted story. There were times when I felt like I was the one sponsoring her because she wouldn't shut up long enough for me to get through the steps. I agonized over ending that relationship. It was what I usually do which is to dismiss my own feelings and misgivings and make excuses for the other person and pretty much accept the other person without accepting the fact that I can't have a deep and meaningful relationship with this other person.

Wow, went off on a bit of a tangent.

[Sunfl0wer]

I too wonder if I am getting RA, understanding it, living it.

I think of the rain.  Sometimes it rains unexpectedly. 

Sometimes I welcome it- maybe I'm out jogging and very hot

Other times it seems like a burden- Maybe I spent an hour on my hair that day and have no umbrella

The feelings I have for the rain are my perspectives, my choice, the meaning I decide to make of it, the story I tell myself.

I'm thinking RA is removing the story from the rain.  Allowing rain to just be rain... .no story.

(I also can choose to think of myself as a victim of the rain, in the story where I styled my hair... .NOT RA.).

I've seen posts that sound like:  How am I not a victim of the rain?  I checked the weather report, it wasn't supposed to rain!  I not only used hairspray, but spent $200 at the stylist!  How can you say that the rain just wasn't out to get me?

I think RA is realizing that the rain actually has nothing to do with you.  (Which is hard to imagine as people do respond and react to others, unlike rain). However, I think RA is accepting the rain for what it is, including those human reactions, and still feeling it is not about me.  Only me is about me.  (That sounded confusing)

Knowing that rain exists, means I can check the weather channel, carry a spare umbrella etc.  However, the rain never truly will ruin my day.  It can't.  It is rain. 

Like I said... .I wonder if I am understanding this.  What do you think?

[vortex of confusion]

Perhaps what I said was too much of a blanket statement - I didn't mean to imply that you don't learn anything from anyone else.  I also didn't mean to imply that you are just like everyone else in your FOO.

I have worked my butt off to be different. Sure, there are a lot of things that are genetic and there are a lot of behaviors that we all have. I think this is a bit of a trigger for me. I sometimes feel like I am cursed because of my FOO. I try to be different and move away from them and set healthy boundaries and other people are telling me that I have to deal with these issues and that I am like them and that I need closure and that I need this or that. No, I don't need to deal with the crap from my FOO AGAIN. I have dealt with that crap so many times over the years it isn't even funny. Stuff about them comes up from time to time. I feel like I am able to deal with it and move on. Each time it comes up, it gets easier to shrug my shoulders and say, "Meh, they are who they are and I am who I am. F*** them!"

I just re-read your OP - just to refocus. You mentioned your sponsor talked to you about letting go of anger and resentment.  You also mentioned that you can be passive aggressive. Where do you think you learned that method of coping with anger?

We live in a society where passive aggressive behavior is more or less the socially acceptable way to be a jerk. Go spend a few minutes on social media and it is obvious how many people are passive aggressive. If I coped with anger like my FOO, I would allow myself to get angry and break and throw things and cuss at people and throw major temper tantrums and go to jail and drink and pretty much be an overt butt nugget. I learned pretty early how to get what I want on the down low. I learned how to be a quiet rebel and get what I wanted/needed quietly even if that meant being a bit passive aggressive. If it was a behavior that only worked within my FOO, it would have been rather easy to extinguish it. There are some behaviors that I have that only come out around my FOO. The way to NOT behave that way is to stay the heck away from my FOO. So that is what I do. I am guessing that I should probably try to figure out how to deal with whatever so that I can be around them without behaving in those ways.

In my mind, they are who they are. They are never going to change. The behaviors that I have adopted to survive being with them is necessary. They aren't going to change. I know how to cope with them for short periods of time here and there. For the most part, I recognize that I do NOT approve of them or their behavior. I am not angry about. I am not really resentful. It is what it is.

And, I felt like my sponsor was pretty much ignoring the fact that I had just told her about some abuse from childhood. I had just finished telling her about some painful stuff from childhood and how I was afraid of being like my mother. Instead of giving me the space to think, feel, or process anything, she hits me with how my mother and I are probably similar and that my mother is probably hurting and needed help and feels trapped and how women in her and my mom's day didn't have a lot of choices. And then she threw my own words at me. Yes, I told her that I was afraid of being a single mom. I don't ever recall saying that I thought it was too hard or that I thought I couldn't do it. I spelled out very specific reasons that I was afraid. I know I can do it if I have to but right now I don't feel like I have to do it. I think things are improving enough that I don't need to worry about it. She basically lectured me about my mother. She would defend her and make excuses for her and then tell me, "I am not defending her or making excuses for her."

And to top it off, she said, "Maybe eventually you will feel strong enough to offer her a hand up, too, not to rescue her, but by demonstrating to her how she can rescue herself." I am sorry but I will NOT be offering my mother a hand up. I will NOT be demonstrating anything to her. I had just told her about how abusive my mother was and yet she is telling me that maybe some day I will be strong enough to help HER? Really? Ooo, maybe I just uncovered some kind of resentment or hurt about my mother. Um, whatever. I have chosen to distance myself from my mother. I love her and I try to maintain a very distant and very superficial relationship with her. I don't hold anything against her but I sure as hell am not going to attempt to help her or demonstrate anything to her. She is the mother. NOT me. I am NOT her mother. I am not her friend. I am her daughter. I spent a lot of years feeling responsible for her feelings and feeling responsible for crap that wasn't my responsibility. I am not about to allow a sponsor to make me feel guilty and try to defend my mother and justify her actions to me. This is about ME taking responsibility for ME.

[vortex of confusion]

I think RA is realizing that the rain actually has nothing to do with you.  (Which is hard to imagine as people do respond and react to others, unlike rain). However, I think RA is accepting the rain for what it is, including those human reactions, and still feeling it is not about me.  Only me is about me.  (That sounded confusing)

I could hug you!  

Oddly enough, it makes perfect sense to me. I think that is what is irritating me so much. I am sitting her saying that I don't feel like I need to deal with FOO stuff because I have accepted that they are who they are. I don't need to forgive them or focus on them because they were just being themselves.

I love the rain analogy. The analogy that I was thinking about was a snake analogy. If you play with a snake and get bit, don't get mad at the friggin' snake. The snake was just being a snake. If you want to deal with the snake, you can choose to deal with it from a distance behind a wall. Or, you can learn how to properly handle a snake. Even if you know how to properly handle a snake without getting bit, there still might be days when you accidentally get bit anyway. Does the fact that the snake snuck up and surprised you mean that you don't know how to handle a snake or does it mean that you were caught off guard for some reason? Kind of like the rain analogy. You can only do so much. At some point, you might be surprised because there is no way to accurately predict how the rain or the snake or our FOO or partners are going to be at any given time.

Knowing that rain exists, means I can check the weather channel, carry a spare umbrella etc.  However, the rain never truly will ruin my day.  It can't.  It is rain.

And, if you are having an off day and the rain does ruin your day or puts you in a foul mood, that doesn't mean that you haven't accepted the rain. It might just mean that it caught you off guard in a weak moment. It might get me in a foul mood for a little while but I know I will bounce back and go on about life. What will interfere with my ability to deal with unexpected rain is other people insisting that being caught off guard and letting it bothering me a time or two means that I haven't adequately accepted rain and don't know how to deal with it and am living in denial and need to spend more time learning about the rain and why it impacted me so much. I want to scream at times. Sometimes, rain is just friggin' rain. A snake is just a friggin' snake. My mother is just my friggin' mother. How can I move on when I have this person insisting that I need closure about things with my family? What the heck does closure even look like in this situation? How can person claim to NOT be a therapist and then sit and tell me that she thinks I need closure and that I need professional help. Um, okay, whatever. I have accepted that there will never really be any kind of closure with regards to FOO stuff. I have accepted it with the understanding that there may be days when it comes back and bites me in the butt because there was something that I didn't anticipate or predict. I can't worry about that because there are so many things that are out of my control. Unexpected rain showers DO happen and that is okay.

[Sunfl0wer]

Ok... .now on to the direction of the thread.  So as not to be invalidating... .and also interesting.

I ended my relationship with my sponsor. I felt like I was making a lot of progress. It got to a point where I felt like I could no longer communicate with my sponsor. She is a sweet lady and we could talk about superficial stuff with no problems. When things got pretty meaty, she wanted to overload me with stories about herself and her life. And it felt like there was a lot of lecturing. On one had she would tell me that she wasn't a professional or a therapist and was my friend yet the next minute she is telling me that she is going to make an exception with me and give me the advice that I need professional help. I have explained to her repeatedly that I have been looking for a decent therapist that I can actually afford.

I think this is a difficult situation, from what I understand, sponsors are not trained in therapy, however, do seem to play the role at times.  It sounds like yours was behaving in either an inconsistent manner, or even conflicting manner.  It also sounds hard for you to even know if this is part of the process to struggle through, or her projecting or demonstrating her own difficulties in expression or the process.

From what you describe, the boundaries of this r/s sound confusing to me, and her approach or at least from what I gather here... .is it feels like you are being blamed in some way for either not doing it "right" or not cooperating in some way.

It was what I usually do which is to dismiss my own feelings and misgivings and make excuses for the other person and pretty much accept the other person without accepting the fact that I can't have a deep and meaningful relationship with this other person. 

This sounds important.  You have identified something here, showed great introspection.  I think you now need to find a r/s with T or other sponsor that you trust so you can work on things.  You have a right to find someone you trust, without feeling guilty about needing that.

(I'm hesitant to express my gut feeling on this as it may be biased and a projection of my own fears: however, it sounds like this lady was running her own agenda, power trip, and wanting you to be vulnerable in the way she wanted ... .not necessarily for your betterment, but possibly to fulfill her powertrip... .idk)

[Sunfl0wer]

I think RA is realizing that the rain actually has nothing to do with you.  (Which is hard to imagine as people do respond and react to others, unlike rain). However, I think RA is accepting the rain for what it is, including those human reactions, and still feeling it is not about me.  Only me is about me.  (That sounded confusing)

I could hug you!  

Oddly enough, it makes perfect sense to me. I think that is what is irritating me so much. I am sitting her saying that I don't feel like I need to deal with FOO stuff because I have accepted that they are who they are. I don't need to forgive them or focus on them because they were just being themselves.

I love the rain analogy. The analogy that I was thinking about was a snake analogy. If you play with a snake and get bit, don't get mad at the friggin' snake. The snake was just being a snake. If you want to deal with the snake, you can choose to deal with it from a distance behind a wall. Or, you can learn how to properly handle a snake. Even if you know how to properly handle a snake without getting bit, there still might be days when you accidentally get bit anyway. Does the fact that the snake snuck up and surprised you mean that you don't know how to handle a snake or does it mean that you were caught off guard for some reason? Kind of like the rain analogy. You can only do so much. At some point, you might be surprised because there is no way to accurately predict how the rain or the snake or our FOO or partners are going to be at any given time.

Knowing that rain exists, means I can check the weather channel, carry a spare umbrella etc.  However, the rain never truly will ruin my day.  It can't.  It is rain.

And, if you are having an off day and the rain does ruin your day or puts you in a foul mood, that doesn't mean that you haven't accepted the rain. It might just mean that it caught you off guard in a weak moment. It might get me in a foul mood for a little while but I know I will bounce back and go on about life. What will interfere with my ability to deal with unexpected rain is other people insisting that being caught off guard and letting it bothering me a time or two means that I haven't adequately accepted rain and don't know how to deal with it and am living in denial and need to spend more time learning about the rain and why it impacted me so much. I want to scream at times. Sometimes, rain is just friggin' rain. A snake is just a friggin' snake. My mother is just my friggin' mother. How can I move on when I have this person insisting that I need closure about things with my family? What the heck does closure even look like in this situation? How can person claim to NOT be a therapist and then sit and tell me that she thinks I need closure and that I need professional help. Um, okay, whatever. I have accepted that there will never really be any kind of closure with regards to FOO stuff. I have accepted it with the understanding that there may be days when it comes back and bites me in the butt because there was something that I didn't anticipate or predict. I can't worry about that because there are so many things that are out of my control. Unexpected rain showers DO happen and that is okay.

Ugh! I wrote long post and browser crashed!

So to sum it up briefly... .

Bring on the hugs!   

Why would anyone NEED to rehash FOO issues?

There are many types of effective therapeutic methods, rehashing and reprocessing and facing FOO issues are ONE method of many.

I am getting the impression, that like myself, you have been there, done that, got what you felt you needed to out of it, are continuing on with awareness of those FOO issues vs denial.  So I don't see the hang up of anyone insisting on one method of psychology vs another for you.

I remember learning, that "over dealing" with FOO issues can even be harmful and cause pple to get stuck in the past when they otherwise could grow faster dealing with things as they surface in the present.

Why the pressure or second guessing that you don't need this?

It sounds like what you need is someone who you can trust that will also allow you to grow to trust yourself more.


  (I don't easily trust pple who tell me something has to be done one way... .unless we are discussing math... .which even still... .there are often several correct approaches.)

[Sunfl0wer]

Tieing it back to your OP... .

Part of me really wants to confront him and other family members about some of the things that they have done to me. Another part of me doesn't see the point in any of it. It isn't going to change the past and it very likely isn't going to change the future. They are who they are.

People keep telling me that I need to deal with these issues and address things. What is it that I am supposed to be dealing with? Am I supposed to deal with the hurt that I felt? Sure, lots of stuff has hurt me over the years. Big deal. It is over and done with. I want to move on and live a positive life. I am sick and tired of all of the negativity. Do I really need to be upset and angry all of the time to heal? What the heck does healing even look like? Sure, I have periods where I am angry and am reminded of those hurts. Most of the time, they are just kind of there in the background and I know that the only thing I can do is move on and make sure that it doesn't happen again.

To me, what you have in bold is RA!

(Like I said... .still learning here... .correct me on this guys... .but that sounds like RA to me)

(I have to say tho... .this thread feels a bit disorienting to me in some way... .not just the way off topic a bit... .but it feels like people are not hearing pple... .idk... .just sayin it out loud in case anyone else felt the same)

[vortex of confusion]

I think this is a difficult situation, from what I understand, sponsors are not trained in therapy, however, do seem to play the role at times.  It sounds like yours was behaving in either an inconsistent manner, or even conflicting manner.  It also sounds hard for you to even know if this is part of the process to struggle through, or her projecting or demonstrating her own difficulties in expression or the process.

It was very difficult for me to sort out whether or not my negative feelings about her were because it was digging up stuff or if it was because she was a bad fit for me. My husband is in a 12 step program so I asked him how things work with his sponsor to try to get an idea of whether or not my expectations were unrealistic. I had been having misgivings about her because of inconsistencies and because it just didn't feel quite right. Since this is all so new to me, I tried to stick it out. I finally reached the conclusion that it didn't really matter why I was having such misgivings. I felt like I should be able to communicate some of this stuff but I realized that I had reached a point where I was afraid to communicate that with her about some things. I realized that it was about ME and what I want and need. I need to be able to feel like I can communicate the hard stuff with my sponsor and hear the hard stuff. I know I am capable of being questioned and have my feet held to the fire. I have had a lot of people here do it and I have had friends in real life that have done it.

From what you describe, the boundaries of this r/s sound confusing to me, and her approach or at least from what I gather here... .is it feels like you are being blamed in some way for either not doing it "right" or not cooperating in some way.

Yes, I absolutely felt blamed. When I brought up finding a new sponsor or leaving the group, she said something along the lines of "I thought you were leaning into your fears and dealing with them." And then she made another backhand comment about "Only you know when you are ready to heal." And the final comment was, "I hope you find relief." The communication was ripe with undertones that implied that because I want a new sponsor I am giving up and don't want to heal. Um, I am NOT giving up. I simply recognized that working with her was slowing me down because I couldn't figure out what it was I was supposed to be doing. I thought I had finished step 4 several different times but it seemed like she kept wanting to go over things. She was never really direct about anything. It felt like half the time she wasn't sure where I was in the process. I spent a rather lengthy time on the phone with her one day and she said it sounded like I was ready to move on. The next call she wasn't sure where I was at and it seemed like I kept going over the same territory. I am new at this and was wanting a little bit more guidance and hand holding. There were times when it felt like she didn't remember a friggin' thing that I had said before.

This sounds important.  You have identified something here, showed great introspection.  I think you now need to find a r/s with T or other sponsor that you trust so you can work on things.  You have a right to find someone you trust, without feeling guilty about needing that.

It was a great moment of clarity for me and it highlighted one of my core defects, which is to deny my own feelings to protect others. I can say, "Hey, this isn't working for me" without thinking ill of the other person. I can say, "Hey, I need/want more than this." I won't lie. I felt very bad about ending the relationship with her. I felt very guilty. Some of that came from me but some of it came from her little digs about how most people give up at step 4 and that she hopes I find relief and that she thought I was doing well. I am NOT giving up. I am simply recognizing that her communication style tends to trigger me because it reminds me of my husband and mother. A lot of people have that communication style. For me, it is about me recognizing it and accepting that I have a difficult time working with people like that, especially in a situation that requires me to open up and be vulnerable. Part of me feels like I should have sucked it up and pushed through it because I could have learned a lot by forcing myself to deal with her despite the problems that I had communicating with her. I have done that for far too long. I push through difficult situations even when I shouldn't or don't have to do it. This process is going to be hard enough without adding communication difficulties. I see no reason to make things even harder on myself.

(I'm hesitant to express my gut feeling on this as it may be biased and a projection of my own fears: however, it sounds like this lady was running her own agenda, power trip, and wanting you to be vulnerable in the way she wanted ... .not necessarily for your betterment, but possibly to fulfill her powertrip... .idk)

I am actually really glad that you expressed that. I find it very validating because that was my gut feelings at different times. It is kind of funny in a sad way but I feel like she embodies the definition of codependent. I felt like she had all of the answers and I was supposed to listen to her stories and her lectures (they weren't really lectures but they sure felt like it) and come away healed. I will admit that I resisted that. I wanted to felt heard. I didn't feel heard when I told her painful stuff only to have her turn around and tell me a story about somebody else that had been through worse.

[jhkbuzz]

Perhaps what I said was too much of a blanket statement - I didn't mean to imply that you don't learn anything from anyone else.  I also didn't mean to imply that you are just like everyone else in your FOO.

I have worked my butt off to be different. Sure, there are a lot of things that are genetic and there are a lot of behaviors that we all have. I think this is a bit of a trigger for me. I sometimes feel like I am cursed because of my FOO. I try to be different and move away from them and set healthy boundaries and other people are telling me that I have to deal with these issues and that I am like them and that I need closure and that I need this or that. No, I don't need to deal with the crap from my FOO AGAIN. I have dealt with that crap so many times over the years it isn't even funny. Stuff about them comes up from time to time. I feel like I am able to deal with it and move on. Each time it comes up, it gets easier to shrug my shoulders and say, "Meh, they are who they are and I am who I am. F*** them!"

I just re-read your OP - just to refocus. You mentioned your sponsor talked to you about letting go of anger and resentment.  You also mentioned that you can be passive aggressive. Where do you think you learned that method of coping with anger?

We live in a society where passive aggressive behavior is more or less the socially acceptable way to be a jerk. Go spend a few minutes on social media and it is obvious how many people are passive aggressive. If I coped with anger like my FOO, I would allow myself to get angry and break and throw things and cuss at people and throw major temper tantrums and go to jail and drink and pretty much be an overt butt nugget. I learned pretty early how to get what I want on the down low. I learned how to be a quiet rebel and get what I wanted/needed quietly even if that meant being a bit passive aggressive. If it was a behavior that only worked within my FOO, it would have been rather easy to extinguish it. There are some behaviors that I have that only come out around my FOO. The way to NOT behave that way is to stay the heck away from my FOO. So that is what I do. I am guessing that I should probably try to figure out how to deal with whatever so that I can be around them without behaving in those ways.

Responding to anger by throwing temper tantrums or by being passive aggressive are unhealthy ways of expressing anger.  There is a healthy middle ground; communicating your needs to get them met.  The caveat is that you (obviously) have to do this with another reasonably healthy person who is willing to listen to you and meet your needs.  It sounds like the members of your FOO were unable to do this?... .

In my mind, they are who they are. They are never going to change. The behaviors that I have adopted to survive being with them is necessary. They aren't going to change. I know how to cope with them for short periods of time here and there. For the most part, I recognize that I do NOT approve of them or their behavior. I am not angry about. I am not really resentful. It is what it is.

I understand that ^. Toxic people are toxic people, whether related by blood or not. It's a good idea to limit our exposure to them.

As for your sponsor:  it sounds like you were lead (unwillingly) into a quasi therapeutic relationship with someone who is not qualified to counsel you in the manner in which they were attempting. Sounds like getting out was a good decision! 

The purpose of therapy is not to understand your family as much as it is to understand yourself - and sometimes that does mean examining your FOO. A trained therapist can help you examine your passive aggressiveness - what your triggers are and how to get your needs met in a healthier way.

[vortex of confusion]

Responding to anger by throwing temper tantrums or by being passive aggressive are unhealthy ways of expressing anger.  There is a healthy middle ground; communicating your needs to get them met.  The caveat is that you (obviously) have to do this with another reasonably healthy person who is willing to listen to you and meet your needs.  It sounds like the members of your FOO were unable to do this?... .

In the grand scheme of things, PA was a much better choice than the overt craziness exhibited by my FOO. When dealing with healthy people, I feel like I do just fine. I revert to PA behavior with people that I don't feel safe with for some reason. I know this about myself and am working on two things: 1) Recognize when I am feeling the need to be PA and 2) Try to find healthier people so that I don't feel that need.

The purpose of therapy is not to understand your family as much as it is to understand yourself - and sometimes that does mean examining your FOO. A trained therapist can help you examine your passive aggressiveness - what your triggers are and how to get your needs met in a healthier way.

I don't feel like I need a therapist to examine it. I can see it for what it is.

I find it more helpful to have friends that are willing to say, "Hey, you are being passive aggressive. Knock it off." Or, I had one friend that would tell me, "Hey, you are trying to push my buttons. Knock it off."

I have examined my FOO until I am blue in the face. I have spent most of my life trying to examine them and understand them and figure out how in the heck I did or didn't fit it. I have examined myself until I am blue in the face.

I think what I am trying to communicate is that I have reached a point where thinking about my FOO is slowing me down. I want to forge ahead without thinking about them yet I have people telling me, "Whoa, slow down, you don't understand yourself well enough to stop thinking about your FOO. You still have unresolved issues here."

Is it because I am protesting that people seem to think that I need to continue to examine my FOO? I am trying to understand what it is that I am supposed to be doing with regard to my FOO. In all honesty, I don't understand what it is that I am supposed to examine. I spent some time in college going to therapy. I loved that counselor. There was a lot of list making and there was a lot of emphasis on making choices. I remember complaining about my parents to her. The counselor would tell me that they are who they are. It doesn't matter if their rules or behaviors are reasonable. I couldn't change that. I could look at the facts of the situation and make choices accordingly. I got a lot of tools and dealt with a lot of stuff during those sessions. That was before I married my husband.

Now, it feels like I am trying to deal with stuff with my husband and I am being blamed, or more accurately, my FOO is being blamed. I feel like there is little or no validation with regard to the fact that I am hurt because of the things that my husband has done. I feel like the real issue is about my relationship with my husband yet I feel like people keep telling me that the key to all of this is in my FOO. No, the key isn't in my FOO. I do NOT give them that much power. The key is inside of ME. My husband can be a douche bag. I have accepted that. My husband has done a lot of things to hurt me. I have accepted that. Now, I want to protect ME. I don't care why my husband or my mother or anybody else is the way that they are. I don't care bout how my FOO dealt with stuff. I care about how *I* behave and feel. I care about how *I* can change. It doesn't really matter to me where I picked this stuff up. What matters to ME is how I can change it. I feel like looking at these other people is a distraction. To me, it feels like I am being told one more time to think about them.

I don't want to think about them. I want to think about ME. They aren't going to change. If they do, it will only be temporary. So, to me, it seems like the goal for me is to find ways to protect myself and behave in healthier ways. I think I can do that without examining them, unless it is in the context of "He/she did this and I didn't protect myself." As a kid, I couldn't protect myself. As an adult I can as long as people stop putting me in the role of the hurt and wounded child that is chasing some kind of healing from childhood. Sure, I want to heal my inner child. The best way to do that is to allow myself to pretty much say, "F*** 'em, they have no power over me." I can be nice to them and I can keep them at a distance but I will NOT get sucked into their BS.

[eeks]

Now, it feels like I am trying to deal with stuff with my husband and I am being blamed, or more accurately, my FOO is being blamed. I feel like there is little or no validation with regard to the fact that I am hurt because of the things that my husband has done. I feel like the real issue is about my relationship with my husband yet I feel like people keep telling me that the key to all of this is in my FOO. No, the key isn't in my FOO. I do NOT give them that much power. The key is inside of ME. My husband can be a douche bag. I have accepted that. My husband has done a lot of things to hurt me. I have accepted that. Now, I want to protect ME. I don't care why my husband or my mother or anybody else is the way that they are. I don't care bout how my FOO dealt with stuff. I care about how *I* behave and feel. I care about how *I* can change. It doesn't really matter to me where I picked this stuff up. What matters to ME is how I can change it. I feel like looking at these other people is a distraction. To me, it feels like I am being told one more time to think about them.

I don't want to think about them. I want to think about ME. They aren't going to change. If they do, it will only be temporary. So, to me, it seems like the goal for me is to find ways to protect myself and behave in healthier ways. I think I can do that without examining them, unless it is in the context of "He/she did this and I didn't protect myself." As a kid, I couldn't protect myself. As an adult I can as long as people stop putting me in the role of the hurt and wounded child that is chasing some kind of healing from childhood. Sure, I want to heal my inner child. The best way to do that is to allow myself to pretty much say, "F*** 'em, they have no power over me." I can be nice to them and I can keep them at a distance but I will NOT get sucked into their BS.

Who is blaming your FOO and saying you need to talk about them?  This is a tough one because maybe they are telling you something you need to hear but don't want to (defenses... .looking at this stuff is painful after all), or maybe you are the one who needs to be trusted to know best for yourself, and they are going off of what worked for them/bias/etc. and not really listening to you.  Now, how do you tell the difference.

It sounds to me like your former sponsor was looking at things too simplistically (possibly as an extreme opposite reaction to how she used to be, so anybody who even indirectly questions how she is doing things now creates a fear in her of slipping back to the old way of doing things and its problems)

If you tried to implement new behaviours (e.g. learn to say how you feel and make direct requests instead of passive aggression) and found that no matter what you try, you couldn't do it, or were able to sustain it for a time then it dropped off... .then I might say that you need to keep examining your FOO.

Working with a therapist (whether you talk about FOO or not; but you probably will need to talk about feelings, heh) might also be necessary to make real gains if you find that practicing mindfulness or Radical Acceptance increases your anxiety (this happens to me, and some mind-body inclined authors have referred to this "flooding" reaction in people who have been through trauma.) 

Bruce Tift (I recommend his audio series Already Free, there's a book coming out this summer too I think( calls it "survival level panic", and this is because expressing feelings/thoughts/traits/behaviours that were not acceptable in your FOO can feel like life-or-death because of the necessity of the parental bond for the child's survival.  You don't need it anymore, but it's a strong reflex. In Buddhism, however, this anxiety is considered a defense against the raw, full experience of life.

But if you find that you are able to learn more constructive behaviours and make them a habit (with or without Radical Acceptance) then go for it. 

By the way, RA in my personal understanding (even when it is not labelled RA, I read fb posts/books by a few therapists who integrate Western developmental psychology with Eastern mindfulness) includes accepting all the emotions... .if you are angry that the rain ruined your hair, accept that you're angry... .if you don't accept that you're angry, then accept that you don't accept it... .you get the idea. 

Anytime anybody writes FOO I want to make up silly little rhymes like

Fee, fi, FOO, fum,

when's the growth work ever done?

[vortex of confusion]

Who is blaming your FOO and saying you need to talk about them?  This is a tough one because maybe they are telling you something you need to hear but don't want to (defenses... .looking at this stuff is painful after all), or maybe you are the one who needs to be trusted to know best for yourself, and they are going off of what worked for them/bias/etc. and not really listening to you.  Now, how do you tell the difference.

I said I FEEL like my FOO is being blamed.   I was talking about my FOO to my sponsor. I was trying to give her some back story about some of my fears and where they originated. At one point, she told me that she thought that I needed to get some closure on my issues with my FOO and that I should seek professional help. I am angry that she interpreted me telling my story as me needed some kind of closure or something. I was actually being pretty matter of fact about it all. Maybe that was a problem for her. She seemed to think that it was oh so horrible. I don't know. It felt like she was pitying me, feeling sorry for me, or something. It was very, very uncomfortable.

You bring up an excellent question Eeks! How does one tell the difference? I know myself well enough to know that I need to be trusted to know myself best. I have a strong negative reaction to people that come in and start bossing me around and acting like they know me better than I know myself (something my mother did). I know that I am a very self aware person. I have had great luck with counselors in the past because I pretty much did all of the work for them.

It sounds to me like your former sponsor was looking at things too simplistically (possibly as an extreme opposite reaction to how she used to be, so anybody who even indirectly questions how she is doing things now creates a fear in her of slipping back to the old way of doing things and its problems)

I don't really care how she was approaching things or what her motives were. What I care about is the fact that I recognized that I had reached a point where I no longer felt comfortable sharing with her.

If you tried to implement new behaviours (e.g. learn to say how you feel and make direct requests instead of passive aggression) and found that no matter what you try, you couldn't do it, or were able to sustain it for a time then it dropped off... .then I might say that you need to keep examining your FOO.

I am pretty good about changing behaviors when I really want to do it. I quit biting my finger nails cold turkey. I quit smoking for all of the years when I was pregnant and nursing. I started again after my youngest weaned but I am certain that I can quit again when I make the decision to do it. I tend to be very direct. I usually try the direct approach first. I only resort to the passive aggressive stuff when being direct doesn't work.

I will ask my husband directly, "Will you do <fill in the blank>?" He will hem and haw and be a dork about it. So, I will make backhanded snide remarks. He won't always acknowledge them but I get what I want. I know that sounds crappy. If I tell him, "I want you to mow the yard." Zip, zilch, nada. . .If I say, I hate coming home to such tall grass, especially since the neighbors just mowed their yard (and a bunch of other crap), then he will mow the yard without me having to ask for it directly. I will laugh myself silly at times because my husband cannot seem to deal with it when I ask him for things directly.

Working with a therapist (whether you talk about FOO or not; but you probably will need to talk about feelings, heh) might also be necessary to make real gains if you find that practicing mindfulness or Radical Acceptance increases your anxiety (this happens to me, and some mind-body inclined authors have referred to this "flooding" reaction in people who have been through trauma.) 

I feel like I have slowly been making progress. One of the things that I have going for me is that my body tends to tell me when I am doing something that is NOT okay. I will have a horrible stomach attack if I get too far off track or if something is really bugging me. If I listen to my body, it tells me what I need to do. My anxiety increases when I start listening to other people instead of listening to my own intuition.

I was actually reading something about trauma this evening and how important it is to let people tell their story without any kind of judgment or feedback. Practicing mindfulness decreases my anxiety. I have gone into my memory banks and remembered some of the things that I used to do in college when I would get anxious. It involved being mindful and basically having conversations with the universe and reassuring myself that I was okay. I also have some relaxation techniques that I used to do back in the day that I am pulling out of my bag of tricks.

Bruce Tift (I recommend his audio series Already Free, there's a book coming out this summer too I think( calls it "survival level panic", and this is because expressing feelings/thoughts/traits/behaviours that were not acceptable in your FOO can feel like life-or-death because of the necessity of the parental bond for the child's survival.  You don't need it anymore, but it's a strong reflex. In Buddhism, however, this anxiety is considered a defense against the raw, full experience of life.

Hmmm. . .I am going to have to check into that. I don't think I have ever really felt the need to behave a certain way. I had a good bond with my dad. Even though I don't talk to him very often, I still feel like he and I have a bond. When I went out with my dad, which was a lot, I wasn't worried about behaving a particular way. I was just me. And, I had my siblings and other people. I flew under the radar and did what I wanted because I was a pretty good kid.

I have been listening to some Buddhist podcasts and they have been helpful.

But if you find that you are able to learn more constructive behaviours and make them a habit (with or without Radical Acceptance) then go for it.

I chuckle at the notion of habit. My husband and I used to have an ongoing discussion about the pros and cons of establishing habits. On one hand, a good habit is a good thing. On the other hand, a bad habit is a bad thing. Instead of forming habits, would it be better to make individual choices based on individual circumstances rather than living life based on preprogrammed reactions/behaviors (or habits). It seems to me that making individual choices based on individual circumstances would lead to a lot more mindfulness than forming habits that may or may not be beneficial. And, if a person forms a habit and the circumstances change, then it becomes necessary to untangle a whole bunch of mess and create new habits. That isn't to say habits are inherently bad. For me, habits are great for basic stuff but not so great when dealing with emotional stuff because emotions, by their very nature, can be fleeting and changing.

By the way, RA in my personal understanding (even when it is not labelled RA, I read fb posts/books by a few therapists who integrate Western developmental psychology with Eastern mindfulness) includes accepting all the emotions... .if you are angry that the rain ruined your hair, accept that you're angry... .if you don't accept that you're angry, then accept that you don't accept it... .you get the idea. 

LOL. I chuckled at that. I get what you are saying. I felt like that is what I was trying to do when I was telling my sponsor that I have no desire to understand my mother or listen to any of the reasons that she is the way that she is. I accept that my mother is who she is. Healing my inner child means giving myself permission to NOT forgive her. Maybe that isn't the right way to phrase it. Basically, my mother is my mother. Nothing more needs to be said. I am honoring MY feelings. For somebody to come along and tell me that it sounds like I need closure or that I am still angry irritated the snot out of me. I feel sorry for my mother more than anything.

Anytime anybody writes FOO I want to make up silly little rhymes like

Fee, fi, FOO, fum,

when's the growth work ever done?

OMG, that is funny! I read that and thought about Little Bunny Foo Foo. . .scooping up the demons and bopping them on the head! Oh wait, that should be field mice.  Demons fit better when talking about FOO.

[eeks]

I said I FEEL like my FOO is being blamed. 

Fine, "... .who is directly or indirectly attributing the full or partial cause of your present difficulties to your past?"   

I asked because I wondered what sort of expertise these people had (whether education, or a more emotional sense of credibility and trust with you) and how well they knew you.

You bring up an excellent question Eeks! How does one tell the difference? I know myself well enough to know that I need to be trusted to know myself best. I have a strong negative reaction to people that come in and start bossing me around and acting like they know me better than I know myself (something my mother did).

I think I know myself pretty well too, and I prefer to be supported in making my own decisions rather than being told what to do. 

I can only speak from my own experience.  I somewhat relate to your frustration, in that I see a psychoanalyst and for the last few weeks I have been really at a loss as to what decision to make.  At first I had faith in the process, first of all because he was recommended to me by someone I trusted who got to know me, and seemed to understand me (one of the facilitators at a group therapy program I did last year).  Second because the insights were making sense.  However, I reached a point where despite all this insight, I didn't feel any more able to cope with life, in fact in some ways less so, my anxiety is worse.

Now, not everybody might agree with me here.  Some therapists are into the tangible life skills, even if it's just to "get someone stable before they can do the deeper work" (or it seems to me that's their rationale).  It's not so much that "I finally decided to just go along with it and everything started happening" but more like, all the work I've been doing sort of coalesced, and it wasn't something I could predict or make happen at a particular time, but what's emerging now is that it seems to be important, in an honest and grounded way, for me to acknowledge what really happened.  And if it was bad, say how bad it was, no more, no less (so it's not about blaming my parents, it's about telling the truth). 

My relationship with my mother is different than yours, but similar.  She tended to interpret "what happened to me, with these specific people, at this specific time" as "how life is/how the world is" and taught me accordingly, including what to be afraid of.  It wasn't intentional for her to think she knew better than me, but that's how it turned out.  I am realizing now that instead of directly facing her traumas, what she did is sort of offload her anxieties onto me, under the guise of being a good parent protecting her child from the dangers.  So for me part of the challenge has been breaking the loyalty, "how can it have been so bad when she loved me?" 

For me, the desire for autonomy, and the right to make my own choices about what's best for me, although it has perfectly good and correct aspects, can (ironically) also at certain times act as a defense against acknowledging/doing/feeling/being stuff that my mother would, even on an unconscious level, reacted to as "dangerous".  (I fully believe I may have perceived it anyway, they say kids are emotional sponges)

I know what I am saying is complex and maybe convoluted.  If it does not help you just treat it as me journaling out loud.

I know that I am a very self aware person. I have had great luck with counselors in the past because I pretty much did all of the work for them.

Interesting.  I agree that you are self aware, and ultimately it only benefits you if you are willing to do the work.  However, and I don't know you, but I kind of wonder if there's a pattern here.  Do you think there are any personal inquiry questions around "I can't trust others, so I have to do it myself" ... ."I can/can't rely on others/I can rely on them under the following circumstances" "healthy autonomy and self-sufficiency vs. being open to receiving help when I need it as part of healthy interdependence and intimacy" etc.?

I certainly don't want to pressure you into doing anything but I find that specifically with respect to interpersonal relations, and the specific dynamics that one tends to take on (and not take on... .) with others, that is one place where introspection can benefit, even if the FOO doesn't even come into it.

It sounds to me like your former sponsor was looking at things too simplistically (possibly as an extreme opposite reaction to how she used to be, so anybody who even indirectly questions how she is doing things now creates a fear in her of slipping back to the old way of doing things and its problems)

I don't really care how she was approaching things or what her motives were. What I care about is the fact that I recognized that I had reached a point where I no longer felt comfortable sharing with her.

Right, and then you realized you had to make a decision about the relationship.  I'm also curious... .here's another situation where you sought support to help yourself make some changes, and were motivated and prepared to do the work, and the person supposed to help you proved inadequate... .in fact as you say, sometimes you ended up taking care of her rather than the other way around... .

hmm... .

I feel like I have slowly been making progress. One of the things that I have going for me is that my body tends to tell me when I am doing something that is NOT okay. I will have a horrible stomach attack if I get too far off track or if something is really bugging me. If I listen to my body, it tells me what I need to do. My anxiety increases when I start listening to other people instead of listening to my own intuition.

This is so cool that you know this.  What a useful tool for self-awareness. 

Hmmm. . .I am going to have to check into that. I don't think I have ever really felt the need to behave a certain way. I had a good bond with my dad. Even though I don't talk to him very often, I still feel like he and I have a bond. When I went out with my dad, which was a lot, I wasn't worried about behaving a particular way. I was just me. And, I had my siblings and other people. I flew under the radar and did what I wanted because I was a pretty good kid.

There were a lot of things that were good about my childhood too.  My mom was quite gutsy in doing what she thought best met my needs, despite "shoulds" from family and community, and a lot of what she did is now seeing a comeback as "attachment parenting" (not letting baby "cry it out", etc.)

In my case I believe it's my parents' trauma that they didn't get therapy for or otherwise address.  For example their marriage was not great, they were more like roommates (no sex, avoided conflict).  So despite their good intentions their inadequate coping strategies slipped out when they were under stress or triggered.

Also, the vast majority of people are operating in "survival personality".  Even if they had an excellent childhood, there's always things that the parents can't "be with" (attune to) in the child.  Good description here:  www.psychosynthesispaloalto.com/pdfs/OpenInnerChild.pdf  (ignore the title, there's no weird "love your inner child" exercises, they do go into relationship with inner child a bit at the end but it's mostly a summary of their view of development of sense of self).  Their observation is that people can undergo significant healing and growth and still be in survival personality.

Now, what does that mean.  It is possible in my opinion that you could have not felt pressure to be someone you weren't, but still be in survival personality.  There could still be feelings/thoughts/traits that it is "forbidden" to have or express (perhaps even so much so that they don't reach consciousness).  So what?  you might say.  Aren't we all limited in some way?  After all we can't run out on the street, take off our pants and steal things from stores?  True, but from what I've read about "individuation" and "the shadow", it's there, you have it whether you like it or not, and it's really just how deep you want to/have to go.

If what you are doing is working for you, then keep doing it.  I am finding that I need to dig deeper. And I will continue to do so until it ceases to be of benefit.

I chuckle at the notion of habit. My husband and I used to have an ongoing discussion about the pros and cons of establishing habits. On one hand, a good habit is a good thing. On the other hand, a bad habit is a bad thing. Instead of forming habits, would it be better to make individual choices based on individual circumstances rather than living life based on preprogrammed reactions/behaviors (or habits).

I agree.  What I meant when i said "habit" was, having recognized that a given behaviour/response is not creating the results you would like, being able to consistently change your response.

This raises an interesting point though.  Can a behaviour change implemented by therapy ("learning to set boundaries" etc.) only ever be superficial and temporary at best?  Is it possible that real lasting change, and the ability to respond in the moment to the circumstances at hand without undue triggers and emotions from the past (or having them, but reaching a point where they don't affect you) can only come from identifying the core issues driving the behaviour, and addressing those?

if so, that would be one point in favour of FOO analysis

OMG, that is funny! I read that and thought about Little Bunny Foo Foo. . .scooping up the demons and bopping them on the head! Oh wait, that should be field mice.  Demons fit better when talking about FOO.

Hah!  Yep. 

... .demons that upon closer inspection turn out to be field mice?

[Sunfl0wer]

I am a bit confused by this thread.  Your OP:

I am in an odd place right now. I am not sure if I have reached a place of radical acceptance or if I am shutting down.

Others appear to be responding as though you have more work to do?  Why is this? (Maybe I missed something in the thread?  Maybe they know you better from other posts?)

It didn't sound to me like your OP was asking if you should have more therapy in your life or not? (Other than you likely may want a new sponsor)

Sounds to me like you want to know if this disconnect you are experiencing could possibly be a healthy indication of RA vs disconnect/denial.  Am I understanding that correctly?

This makes a lot of sense to me.  For myself, as a person who has gotten used to feeling drama in a r/s, now an unsettled stillness after r/s is gone... .it makes sense to me that I would question odd feelings in me and wonder if indeed this oddness I'm feeling could be a healthy one.

Certainly, if we've never experienced RA before, we would want to know if we are getting it right.

I'm interested to hear others describe RA, as sometimes I also feel ok, and like I'm doing ok at time with RA. 

Idk... .maybe no one can tell me the diff between shutting down vs RA, and I'll just do my best to allow feelings to happen... .

Shutting down ex for me:  During my grieving I have had a moment where I felt unaffected by the b/u, I thought I processed things well and had much of it behind me. (I felt unemotional and numb about it) Turned out I was actually in shock.  The feelings slowly came up as I could handle them.

RA ex for me:  However, with my loss of FOO, sure it bothers me on occasion that I don't have a family as others.  However there is no work to do about this.  It is what it is.  I have processed it.  It may resurface... .but for now it is where it is and ok.

So maybe for me... .   RA vs numbness:   Is about being aware enough to allow myself to feel and deal with what surfaces as a result.  I may need to tell a feeling that it needs to wait until work is done, but I get back to that part of myself, acknowledge it and meet it where it is for a period.  I guess tho, that I do trust myself to be honest with myself.

Did that make any sense?  Cause they are thoughts I'm coming up with as I go here

Based on what I've read here... .  I hear that you are in fact being honest with yourself but not trusting yourself about it.  That sounds like the opposite of denial to me.  I hear you trying hard to consider other possibilities just so you can be certain that you should in fact trust yourself... .that doesn't sound like repression to me.

[jhkbuzz]

I am a bit confused by this thread.  Your OP:

I am in an odd place right now. I am not sure if I have reached a place of radical acceptance or if I am shutting down.

Others appear to be responding as though you have more work to do?  Why is this? (Maybe I missed something in the thread?  Maybe they know you better from other posts?)

I think we are responding to a variety of topics in the OP:

I need to work on boundaries. I can do that without worrying about my FOO. I need to work on some of my tendencies to be passive aggressive.

People keep telling me that I need to deal with these issues and address things. What is it that I am supposed to be dealing with? Am I supposed to deal with the hurt that I felt?

[vortex of confusion]

Fine, "... .who is directly or indirectly attributing the full or partial cause of your present difficulties to your past?"   

My sponsor seemed to want to go on about how bad she felt for me and how she didn't have a childhood like that so she couldn't understand and how her daddy had a bad childhood but was able to overcome and forgive his family, blah, blah, blah. I think she even said "You have every right to feel what you feel but that doesn't mean that it won't destroy you." I am sitting here trying to tell her my story and she was interrupting and adding her own stories and trying to tell me that emotions can destroy you if you don't let them go, blah, blah, blah. One one hand, it felt like she was telling to go see a therapist to deal with my FOO issues while at the same time it felt like she was telling me to get over it and that I need closure. HUH?

I asked because I wondered what sort of expertise these people had (whether education, or a more emotional sense of credibility and trust with you) and how well they knew you.

Good point! I have only been talking to this person for a couple of months and I do not feel like she took the time to really get to know me. Why am I bothered by anything she might say? I think it is because I was hoping to focus on the stuff with my husband and we didn't even really get there. She has been working as a sponsor for 20 years. Not sure if that makes her more or less credible.

I can only speak from my own experience.  I somewhat relate to your frustration, in that I see a psychoanalyst and for the last few weeks I have been really at a loss as to what decision to make.  At first I had faith in the process, first of all because he was recommended to me by someone I trusted who got to know me, and seemed to understand me (one of the facilitators at a group therapy program I did last year).  Second because the insights were making sense.  However, I reached a point where despite all this insight, I didn't feel any more able to cope with life, in fact in some ways less so, my anxiety is worse.

I think it is normal for there to be periods of discomfort. I think it is also normal to get anxious MORE when dealing with this stuff. I was trying to figure that into the equation. I think the question to ask yourself is "Are these uncomfortable feelings happening because of the stuff that is being said or are these uncomfortable feelings a result of the person that is helping me?" There were some instances where I could clearly identify the fact that I was uncomfortable with everything because of the stuff that was being brought up. When I made the decision to stop the sponsee relationship, I had reached a point where I could no longer work with her because I found that I was being triggered to much by who she was as a person. It felt like she was trying to argue with me over my mother and I think it was because she related more to the story about my mother than the story about me because she and my mother have been married for the same length of time and come from the same generation. As one point, she even made the remark that my parents sound like clones of her and her husband. And the kicker was when she said that my mom sounds a lot like us. This was right after I told her that one of my fears was being like my mother. If I had a friend that said things like this, I would distance myself from that friend because it is quite clear that the friend does not seem to be very mindful. When I did try to explain some things, I got a bunch of defensive crap. It was the whole "I didn't say that, blah, blah, blah." I was going to argue with her about what she did or didn't say. I was deliberately making I statements and I was deliberately being careful with my words. I was trying to tell her what I heard from what she said. Instead of recognizing that she picked off a scab, she wanted to argue and get defensive. I was looking to her for help. She is the one that is supposed to be able to be strong enough and not be a defensive butt in order to give me the space to work through my crap.

And if it was bad, say how bad it was, no more, no less (so it's not about blaming my parents, it's about telling the truth). 

Exactly! I have tried to do that when talking about my parents and my husband and any other situation. It is so funny to see my husband talk to people about us. He always puts such a positive spin on it and tells people how much better things are going. Me, I tend to be kind of non plussed and say things like, "Yeah, we are liking each other a lot more these days." When one of our close friends asked why we weren't playing music together, he gave some answer like "We've been busy." and my response was, "We haven't liked each other enough to play together." When I told my sponsor the stuff about my family, I thought I was being factual as possible so it was a bit of a shock to have her read it and go on about me needing therapy and needing to get closure, blah, blah, blah. I guess I wasn't expecting that because my understanding was that she is NOT a therapist and isn't really supposed to give advice.

So for me part of the challenge has been breaking the loyalty, "how can it have been so bad when she loved me?" 

I have come to the conclusion that my mother is incapable of love unless it directly benefits her.

For me, the desire for autonomy, and the right to make my own choices about what's best for me, although it has perfectly good and correct aspects, can (ironically) also at certain times act as a defense against acknowledging/doing/feeling/being stuff that my mother would, even on an unconscious level, reacted to as "dangerous".  (I fully believe I may have perceived it anyway, they say kids are emotional sponges)

My mother didn't protect me at all.

Interesting.  I agree that you are self aware, and ultimately it only benefits you if you are willing to do the work.  However, and I don't know you, but I kind of wonder if there's a pattern here.  Do you think there are any personal inquiry questions around "I can't trust others, so I have to do it myself" ... ."I can/can't rely on others/I can rely on them under the following circumstances" "healthy autonomy and self-sufficiency vs. being open to receiving help when I need it as part of healthy interdependence and intimacy" etc.?

I have thought of those questions. I have come to the conclusion that I can absolutely accept help but I am not going to accept it from people that I don't trust. I am very friggin' picky about who I trust. I don't always pick the right person to trust but I try. I am an odd duck. I don't pretend to be anything else.

I certainly don't want to pressure you into doing anything but I find that specifically with respect to interpersonal relations, and the specific dynamics that one tends to take on (and not take on... .) with others, that is one place where introspection can benefit, even if the FOO doesn't even come into it.

I think you lost me on this one. Are you talking about communication styles? I know my communication style. I tend to relate to men better than women because men and women tend to have different ways of thinking. I think this comes from spending so much time being around men as a kid. My dad took me everywhere with him in an attempt to protect me from my mother.

Right, and then you realized you had to make a decision about the relationship.  I'm also curious... .here's another situation where you sought support to help yourself make some changes, and were motivated and prepared to do the work, and the person supposed to help you proved inadequate... .in fact as you say, sometimes you ended up taking care of her rather than the other way around... .

I recognize that pattern. I am not sure if it was her or me. It is probably me. I don't know how to change that. There are people that I have reached out to that have been very helpful. Those people have to be very strong people. I have been told by several people that I am a very strong person. I have been told by several people that I always seem to have everything together. My husband has told me that he has no clue how to help me because I am too strong and he doesn't feel like I need him. I have had people say things to me like, "Man, you are a force of nature." One of my good friends loves to describe me as a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in bacon. And that is why I often think that I must be the one that is messed up in the head. If I have standards and stick to them, it feels like I am left alone with no help. If I lower my standards and pretty much ignore my intuition and gut level instincts, then that doesn't work either. I am a natural care taker. When I am in a grocery store, I have had people come up to me and ask me for help. I don't know. I don't say anything. I just attract people like that. It is an air that I have about me.

If what you are doing is working for you, then keep doing it.  I am finding that I need to dig deeper. And I will continue to do so until it ceases to be of benefit.

I have no problems with digging deeper. I want to be able to dig deeper at my own pace. I think I can dig deeper without it being all emotional and weird. If somebody is holding my hand as I go through this crap, I need that person to be stable and strong enough to not lose it when I am hit with a flood of stuff. I need that person to not give me encouragement by telling me things like, "You done good."

[vortex of confusion]

Sounds to me like you want to know if this disconnect you are experiencing could possibly be a healthy indication of RA vs disconnect/denial.  Am I understanding that correctly?

You are correct.

This makes a lot of sense to me.  For myself, as a person who has gotten used to feeling drama in a r/s, now an unsettled stillness after r/s is gone... .it makes sense to me that I would question odd feelings in me and wonder if indeed this oddness I'm feeling could be a healthy one.

It is difficult for me to sort out which odd feelings are healthy and which ones aren't. That is why I didn't do anything about my sponsor for a while. I was trying to figure out whether my odd feelings were because of me or because of a mismatch between us. I came to the conclusion that she wasn't a good match for me.

I'm interested to hear others describe RA, as sometimes I also feel ok, and like I'm doing ok at time with RA. 

I have another thread on the staying board and waverider said something that I think gets at a lot of what RA looks like. Here is what he said:

What you really want is to get to the stage where all the small stuff barely blips on your radar so you dont even have to bite your tongue.

Then the important stuff that does you can state quite clearly that "regardless of how it affects you it makes me unhappy" Taking the distorted mind reading out of it, as I am sure it shows even if you don't say anything.

I think that is where I want to go. I want to not be phased by this stuff at all. I did notice something in all of this. I feel like I have accepted my mother for who she is. She can pull her BS and my reaction is "Meh, so what." When my husband asks how my mother is doing, my response is usually, 'Same stuff different day' nothing ever really changes with her. I feel like I am even getting less and less triggered by my husband's BS. I see that I can accept that stuff in my husband and mother but I will NOT accept it in somebody that is supposed to be in a position of helping me. Choosing one more friend or confidant that is like my mother or husband would be the ultimate repeating of old patterns. So, for now, if somebody is supposed to be helping me with something and reminds me of my husband or mother, then I am going to walk away. And no, I don't walk around seeing my husband and mother in everyone that I interact with. I do have some friends that I can talk to just fine without any problems.

Based on what I've read here... .  I hear that you are in fact being honest with yourself but not trusting yourself about it.  That sounds like the opposite of denial to me.  I hear you trying hard to consider other possibilities just so you can be certain that you should in fact trust yourself... .that doesn't sound like repression to me.

Here is my favorite quote on this issue: "To trust children we must first learn to trust ourselves... .and most of us were taught as children that we could not be trusted." —John Holt

I think that this quote sums up why I don't trust myself like I should. I want to be able to trust myself but that is difficult to do when I have people around me that are questioning me and telling me that I need this or that or are drawing comparisons between me and somebody else.

[jhkbuzz]

I'm going to challenge your reasoning a little bit here - please know that I'm doing it with a gentle spirit.  

I said:

Responding to anger by throwing temper tantrums or by being passive aggressive are unhealthy ways of expressing anger.  There is a healthy middle ground; communicating your needs to get them met.  The caveat is that you (obviously) have to do this with another reasonably healthy person who is willing to listen to you and meet your needs.  It sounds like the members of your FOO were unable to do this?... .

And you responded:

When dealing with healthy people, I feel like I do just fine. I revert to PA behavior with people that I don't feel safe with for some reason. I know this about myself and am working on two things: 1) Recognize when I am feeling the need to be PA and 2) Try to find healthier people so that I don't feel that need.

But then when I said:

The purpose of therapy is not to understand your family as much as it is to understand yourself - and sometimes that does mean examining your FOO. A trained therapist can help you examine your passive aggressiveness - what your triggers are and how to get your needs met in a healthier way.

You responded:

I don't feel like I need a therapist to examine it. I can see it for what it is.

I find it more helpful to have friends that are willing to say, "Hey, you are being passive aggressive. Knock it off." Or, I had one friend that would tell me, "Hey, you are trying to push my buttons. Knock it off."

Do you not feel 'safe' with your friends? Do you feel that your friends are 'unhealthy'? Because if they are safe and healthy, then you are being passive aggressive with your safe, healthy friends as well - not just with people who feel "unsafe" to you.

One of the things that I've learned in therapy is that I have HUGE blind spots when it comes to understanding myself.  We all do, I think. This is one of the reasons why a T can be so valuable.

I'm not trying to push therapy or a deep, dark examination of your FOO upon you - that is your decision to make. All I'm saying is I've found therapy to be very, very helpful when I'm trying to undo "knots" that are too complex to untie on my own.

[vortex of confusion]

Do you not feel 'safe' with your friends? Do you feel that your friends are 'unhealthy'? Because if they are safe and healthy, then you are being passive aggressive with your safe, healthy friends as well - not just with people who feel "unsafe" to you.

One of the things that I've learned in therapy is that I have HUGE blind spots when it comes to understanding myself.  We all do, I think. This is one of the reasons why a T can be so valuable.

I'm not trying to push therapy or a deep, dark examination of your FOO upon you - that is your decision to make. All I'm saying is I've found therapy to be very, very helpful when I'm trying to undo "knots" that are too complex to untie on my own.

Thanks for taking the time to challenge me.

I think you and I are coming at things from two different angles. I am coming at things from a place where I have done all sorts of deep, dark examination. I went to family counseling as a kid and as a young adult. I have untied a lot of knots over the years and have never really stopped examining. I have gone through and read a lot of stuff that I have written over the years. I know the theory behind a lot of stuff. I know a lot of the reasons behind a lot of what I do. I am continually finding blind spots and I will probably continue to find things that I can do to improve myself.

And, sometimes, I have a bad day and slip up. For that matter, there are times when I slip up and don't even know it. If I were to slip up and not even know it, then how would I know to even talk to a therapist about it? I forget the scenario but I was talking to a friend one time and my friend brought something to my attention. I was a bit confused at first because I had no idea that I had even done it. When my friend explained it to me, I was like 'holy crap', I have done that for years and never realized that it wasn't normal/ok/PA/whatever. That sort of thing isn't likely going to come up in therapy. It is more likely to come up in the context of living daily among people that (not sure how to describe it) are like who/what I want to be.

The easiest example that I can give is one from parenting stuff. I am anti-spanking. I have gotten into a lot of discussions, even arguments if you will, with people that advocate it. And, I have gotten into discussions with people that don't like it and want to change. They know all of the theory behind why they think it is bad yet they aren't sure how to implement it in daily life. The recommendation was to find groups of parents that had similar values so that you could see how it works in real life. If you are at a play date with parents that hold similar values and you are about to lose it, then the other parent can help you calm down or see other options. At some point, you get enough tools in your tool box from watching how other non spanking parents deal with their kids in real live situations that it becomes easier and easier until one day you can go out and not have to worry, "Am I going to lose it and spank my kid?"

Let's face it, everyone has bad days. A person can spend all sorts of time in a therapists office untying knots but that isn't going to make much of a difference if the person doesn't go out into the world and start practicing stuff. Even if a person goes to therapy for three or four hours a week, all the therapist is going to see is what the person tells him/her. It isn't likely that the therapist will see a person "in action" enough to really be able to pinpoint all of the problems. That is why so many people go undiagnosed or are unable to get real help.

So, it isn't that I don't feel safe around healthier people. It is that I am realistic enough to realize that I am probably going to slip up from time to time. If I am having a bad day or if something strikes me a certain way, then it is quite possible that I might accidentally revert to bad behaviors. With unhealthy people such as my FOO, I don't even think twice about it, that is kind of the default survival behavior. If I screw up around them, they sure as heck aren't going to notice it or say anything. If I spend too much time around them or people like them, then it becomes too easy to slip back into thinking that it is okay.

With healthier people, that isn't the default behavior. It might come out from time to time but it isn't something that is common. If it does come out, then they are going to call me on it and NOT be okay with it.

I hope my ramblings make some kind of sense. I am really, really glad that you challenged me on this. When you put it all together like you did, it sounded very contradictory.

[jhkbuzz]

Do you not feel 'safe' with your friends? Do you feel that your friends are 'unhealthy'? Because if they are safe and healthy, then you are being passive aggressive with your safe, healthy friends as well - not just with people who feel "unsafe" to you.

One of the things that I've learned in therapy is that I have HUGE blind spots when it comes to understanding myself.  We all do, I think. This is one of the reasons why a T can be so valuable.

I'm not trying to push therapy or a deep, dark examination of your FOO upon you - that is your decision to make. All I'm saying is I've found therapy to be very, very helpful when I'm trying to undo "knots" that are too complex to untie on my own.

Thanks for taking the time to challenge me.

I think you and I are coming at things from two different angles. I am coming at things from a place where I have done all sorts of deep, dark examination. I went to family counseling as a kid and as a young adult. I have untied a lot of knots over the years and have never really stopped examining. I have gone through and read a lot of stuff that I have written over the years. I know the theory behind a lot of stuff. I know a lot of the reasons behind a lot of what I do. I am continually finding blind spots and I will probably continue to find things that I can do to improve myself.

What it sounds like you are saying ^ is that you've been through the process and believe that you have nothing else to gain from it. Is my interpretation correct?

And, sometimes, I have a bad day and slip up. For that matter, there are times when I slip up and don't even know it. If I were to slip up and not even know it, then how would I know to even talk to a therapist about it?

I understand your reasoning, but its not entirely correct.  One of the things I said in my first post is that, through therapy, I am learning that "some of my most basic assumptions about life and people - things that feel self evident and at the very core of who I am - are actually acquired from my FOO, and can be re-examined, challenged and discarded if necessary." A good therapist will pick up on your core beliefs and begin to bring them to the surface - and challenge them if they need to be challenged.  Your "bringing them up in therapy" is not always necessary. They often simply "come out" over time.

Your passive aggressiveness, for example.  There are core beliefs that underlay your PA.  Perhaps the expression of your needs when you were young were derided as selfish, or a burden, or an inconvenience, or too demanding, or undeserving of attention. Perhaps your expression of need was met with indifference.  Or rage.

There is likely an underlying anger or shame beneath your PA. There are thoughts attached to those feelings or anger or shame.  And it's those thoughts that are what I was talking about in my response - "my most basic assumptions about life and people - things that feel self evident and at the very core of who I am." Those are the thoughts that need to be challenged, examined, and discarded or replaced before healing can really take place.

Let's face it, everyone has bad days. A person can spend all sorts of time in a therapists office untying knots but that isn't going to make much of a difference if the person doesn't go out into the world and start practicing stuff.

True, but your thinking is kind of "all or nothing." No one engages in therapy and removes themselves from everyday life unless they've been hospitalized.

Even if a person goes to therapy for three or four hours a week, all the therapist is going to see is what the person tells him/her. It isn't likely that the therapist will see a person "in action" enough to really be able to pinpoint all of the problems.

Again, I don't think therapists only "see" what we tell them.  Not the good ones, anyway.

So, it isn't that I don't feel safe around healthier people. It is that I am realistic enough to realize that I am probably going to slip up from time to time. If I am having a bad day or if something strikes me a certain way, then it is quite possible that I might accidentally revert to bad behaviors.

True - we are all capable of bad days - especially me!    But this is what I'm hearing from you (and correct me if I'm wrong):

I've been through tons of therapy and I've gotten everything out of it that I can. I am self aware enough to make progress on my own, and I will count on my friends to point out my flaws when needed.

If that ^ is incorrect, then please forgive me.  But if it is correct, I respectfully disagree with all of it.  I do believe that additional therapy would help you deal with your core beliefs that lead to your PA. I don't believe you (or any of us) are able to see all the blind spots in our lives. And I don't believe it is your friends' responsibility to point out your PA behavior - I think it's your responsibility to really get to the root of it so that it has less of an impact on the people in your life.

Think about it this way:  your friends can point out your symptoms but this won't lead to your healing.  Imagine that you had a heart condition and your friends started pointing the symptoms to you - "hey, you seem really short of breath," "hey, you look really flushed."  Mentioning the symptoms brings the problem to your attention - but it can't solve the actual problem. Solving the problem is up to you - which I know you're already aware of.  

[vortex of confusion]

What it sounds like you are saying ^ is that you've been through the process and believe that you have nothing else to gain from it. Is my interpretation correct?

I am not sure where you are getting this interpretation. I am feeling very defensive about this and I am pretty sure that it is because I don't feel like I said this at all. Here is what I said:

I think you and I are coming at things from two different angles. I am coming at things from a place where I have done all sorts of deep, dark examination. I went to family counseling as a kid and as a young adult. I have untied a lot of knots over the years and have never really stopped examining. I have gone through and read a lot of stuff that I have written over the years. I know the theory behind a lot of stuff. I know a lot of the reasons behind a lot of what I do. I am continually finding blind spots and I will probably continue to find things that I can do to improve myself.

Where in that did I come out and say, "I have been through the process and have nothing else to gain"? I don't understand how you are coming to that conclusion. I said that I am continually finding blind spots and I will probably continue to find things I can do to improve myself. Did I come right out and say "I have been through the process and believe I have nothing more to gain". What process are you talking about in this context? Are you talking about the process of therapy or the process of self discovery? Self discovery and and therapy are not necessarily the same thing. Self discovery can be done with or without therapy.

What I am hearing you say is that the only way to do self discovery is by going to therapy. All I am trying to do is say that there are other ways of self discovery. And, I am saying that it should be up to the individual person to decide when or if he/she thinks therapy is necessary.

I understand your reasoning, but its not entirely correct.  One of the things I said in my first post is that, through therapy, I am learning that "some of my most basic assumptions about life and people - things that feel self evident and at the very core of who I am - are actually acquired from my FOO, and can be re-examined, challenged and discarded if necessary." A good therapist will pick up on your core beliefs and begin to bring them to the surface - and challenge them if they need to be challenged.  Your "bringing them up in therapy" is not always necessary. They often simply "come out" over time.

I am not sure that I understand what you are getting at with this. Are you trying to say that the only way to bring ones core beliefs to the surface is with the help of a trained therapist? I feel like this is a bit black and white in that the underlying implication is that a person's core beliefs can only be discovered with the help of a therapist. I am not arguing that a therapist is completely unneccessary. All I am trying to say is that whether or not a person chooses to see a therapist is up to them. Therapy isn't the only way to achieve things. Support groups, retreats, meditation, and a bunch of other options exist. If I find it more helpful to sit and listen to meditation podcasts, then I should be able to make that choice without other people insisting that what I am doing is wrong.

I can sense some defensiveness in your posts as well. I can only imagine how it must feel to hear me speak out against therapy. From what you say, it has been very helpful to you. I think that is wonderful. I am not trying to tell you that your way is bad or wrong. All I am trying to say is that there is more than one way.

I didn't start this thread to discuss the merits of therapy. If I get to a point where I feel stuck, I will seek one out. I have been looking around to see if I can find one that I can afford. I don't feel stuck enough to break the bank or look with fervor. I have some very specific things that I am looking for in a therapist. I have a phone consultation coming up on Monday. If it works out, fine. If not, that is okay too. I am reading a lot of good materials and am downloading some podcasts that might be helpful to me.

I am not going to discuss whether or not therapy is good, bad, or indifferent. That is up to the individual person to decide for him/herself. I think I started this whole thread because I was irritated that somebody else was trying to tell me what I was feeling. Somebody else was trying to tell me that I still feel x, y, and z about my mother and that I need therapy to get closure. I do not feel x, y, or z.

And, I think part of the reason that I am feeling defensive about this post of yours is that it feels like you are trying to say that a counselor/therapist can identify what I think or feel better than I can. All I am trying to say is that I am the ultimate authority of my mind and my body. When I feel like somebody is trying to tell me otherwise, it does set me on the defensive because one of the unspoken messages growing up was that I didn't have complete and ultimate authority over my mind and body.

And there have been things that I have told some people and I get, "Oh, you must be afraid of rejection." or "You must have such and such issues." I will be perfectly honest and say it annoys the bejeesus out of me because sometimes bug is just a bug. Sometimes, there is NO hidden meaning behind an action. I sometimes get tired of all of the overanalyzing and having other people try to assign motives or feelings that aren't really there. Can I be sad or mad or confused and just feel those feelings long enough to process them without having somebody come along and want to analyze them? This isn't about therapy either. This is about ME asserting myself and saying, "I don't like it when other people try to tell me what is best for me. I don't like it when other people act like they know what is best for me better than I do."

Let's face it, everyone has bad days. A person can spend all sorts of time in a therapists office untying knots but that isn't going to make much of a difference if the person doesn't go out into the world and start practicing stuff.

True, but your thinking is kind of "all or nothing." No one engages in therapy and removes themselves from everyday life unless they've been hospitalized.

No, I don't think it is all or nothing. My thinking is based on what I have seen from my husband and other family members. My husband has gone to therapy but his actions do not change. It is like whatever he says/does in therapy stays in therapy. I was referring to the tendency for some people to spend their entire lives in therapy without ever really making any changes. And, I will be perfectly honest, when I was a kid, therapy was used by my parents as a way to proved to us kids that we were effed in the head. They were the ones that were effed in the head. Because they were the adults, they got to tell the therapist/counselor/whatever whatever they wanted and the focus became on fixing us kids.

I think I just realized that I am not against therapy if I choose to do it on my own and get to pick who I see and get to have a lot of control in the situation. But, I think I hate therapy because it was used by my parents to prove how friggin' broken us kids were. So, when people try to push counseling on me, it gets under my skin because it feels like I am being told that I am broken and that I have no power to fix myself. It feels like I am being told that I have to go see a therapist because I lack the ability to know myself or think for myself. One of the core messages that I heard as a kid is that I don't know myself and that I am broken. I DO know myself and I have a lot of cracks but I am not broken into a bunch of fragile little pieces. I do not need to go so see a therapist to find out who I am or what my core issues are.

Again, I don't think therapists only "see" what we tell them.  Not the good ones, anyway.

I think this is coming from the fact that you and I have very different life experiences. Like I said above, I am coming from a place where I saw my parents, mostly my mother, put on a show in counseling. I have seen one of my sisters get involuntarily committed several times because she was so crazy at one point. All of the counselors/therapists got to see or hear was her side of things. She would get let out too soon because she would get on meds and get her snap back and then get out without ever really being treated.

I've been through tons of therapy and I've gotten everything out of it that I can. I am self aware enough to make progress on my own, and I will count on my friends to point out my flaws when needed.

The only part of this that I think is correct is, "I am self aware enough to make progress on my own." Yes, I have been through therapy. Have I gotten everything out of it that I think I can? I don't know. I am still using tools that I learned from the sessions that I had when I was in college. I am not going to count on my friends for that. If they do, great. If they don't, that is fine too. I am thinking of a few very specific people when I mention friends that point out flaws. It isn't something that I expected from them. It turns out that we trust each other enough to do that for each other. I didn't go into the friendship expecting that. I kind of organically grew as the friendship grew.

Think about it this way:  your friends can point out your symptoms but this won't lead to your healing.  Imagine that you had a heart condition and your friends started pointing the symptoms to you - "hey, you seem really short of breath," "hey, you look really flushed."  Mentioning the symptoms brings the problem to your attention - but it can't solve the actual problem. Solving the problem is up to you - which I know you're already aware of.  

Exactly! It is up to me to solve the problem.

In your example, the friends can bring the problem to my attention. I can take it to the doctor and the doctor says, "It's not your heart. You just need to exercise more. You are fat and out of shape." No matter how many times I tell the doctor, "Hey, I think this is what is going on," the doctor doesn't listen so I have to argue with the doctor. If the doctor doesn't eventually listen, then I have to find another doctor or try to figure out how to muddle along. I will be perfectly honest that I have not had the best experiences with health care professionals. Yes, they may know about what they studied in school and they may have a whole lot of years of experience. They have not lived in my body and my mind. Instead of jumping to conclusions or dismissing me based on whatever, I want to actually be heard without somebody jumping in and telling me, "you need counseling, you need x, you need y, you need z" without ever really hearing me or listening to what I am saying.

[jhkbuzz]

But, I think I hate therapy because it was used by my parents to prove how friggin' broken us kids were. So, when people try to push counseling on me, it gets under my skin because it feels like I am being told that I am broken and that I have no power to fix myself. It feels like I am being told that I have to go see a therapist because I lack the ability to know myself or think for myself. One of the core messages that I heard as a kid is that I don't know myself and that I am broken.

It sounds like my post triggered you - I hope you know that wasn't my intention at all.

In the blurb about who should post to the Personal Inventory and Self-Awareness board, the description says, "This is a board for listening. Listening to others talk about you. It's likely to be uncomfortable at times. When it is, it's best to close your computer and step away to reflect on what has been said. If you find yourself "pushing back" you are also, most likely, closing down... ."

Let me know if you want to continue the conversation or if it would be best for me to refrain from responding for now.

Our journeys are highly personal, and each one of us knows what we're ready to deal with at any given time. 

[vortex of confusion]

It sounds like my post triggered you - I hope you know that wasn't my intention at all.

It did trigger me a little and I am glad that you stuck with me through out the conversation as I knew that I was triggered by some of the things being said but wanted to work it out. I wasn't worried about your intentions. One of my mottos is to assume good intent whenever possible.

In the blurb about who should post to the Personal Inventory and Self-Awareness board, the description says, "This is a board for listening. Listening to others talk about you. It's likely to be uncomfortable at times. When it is, it's best to close your computer and step away to reflect on what has been said. If you find yourself "pushing back" you are also, most likely, closing down... ."

I have stepped away from the computer several times during this conversation and didn't come back until I could say what I wanted to say without being triggered. I am sticking with it because this is something where I want to push through the discomfort because I think I can learn about myself in the process.

Our journeys are highly personal, and each one of us knows what we're ready to deal with at any given time. 

So true!

I am trying to figure out how to phrase something but can't quite figure it out so I am going to fumble a bit. In thinking about radical acceptance and family of origin and my spouse, I feel like I have two things going on. On one hand, I feel like I accept them for who they are. Sure, they get on my nerves but I don't hold any ill will towards them. On the other hand, I still have negative feelings about some of the stuff that was done to me or some of the ways that I was treated by different people. The one thing that I want to deal with is the trauma aspects, which is about how I feel/felt about things rather than about anything specific such as a particular relationship.

I was looking at different resources and came across this, which comes from a description of meeting guidelines for a particular group:

These meetings are for self-discovery, therefore, we keep the focus upon ourselves, and do not dwell solely upon our relationship or the behavior of others —but on ourselves and our feelings. One of the many paradoxes of trauma recovery is that by identifying and deeply exploring our feelings, we can actually change our situations. Our long-avoided, painful feelings open up to us and become present for healing. To accomplish this, you will benefit most by trying to identify with the feelings expressed rather than being hooked onto the situations in which they occurred.

I have a difficult time looking at my feelings when I have somebody standing over my shoulder telling me how I should be doing it. When my sponsor told me to list my fears and explore them, that is exactly what I was trying to do. I mentioned a bunch of fears about my mother and this is what I got:

I don't know your mother.  For all I know, She may be mean and bitter just because she is mean and bitter.  On the other hand, she may be mean and bitter because she simply does not know how to be better.  You don't want to be like her, so don't be.  Do what it takes to not get caught up in your own evil life song.   Climb your way out of that muck and mire.  I found my way out, but not without a whole lot of helping hands.  I'm offering you a hand up.  Maybe eventually you will feel strong enough to offer her a hand up, too, not to rescue her, but by demonstrating to her how she can rescue herself. She may be too far gone to accept it, and you can't help that.

I feel completely okay with saying that I will never offer my mother a hand up. I will NOT do it. My mother is NOT my responsibility. There was a lot more to the conversation but this part is what friggin' bugged me. Even if I do get strong enough to offer her a hand, I won't do it. It isn't out of meanness. It isn't because I don't have closure. It is a choice that I am making that comes from a place of peace. It is coming from a place where I love my mother but I have no delusions about her or who she is and I am okay with that. And, for somebody to make a reference to "your own evil life song" really hit me. I know that I need to work on why the stuff that was said bugged me. My goal is to get to a place where I can hear things like this and shrug and say, "Oh well." So, I am not looking at much as what the other person said as much as I am trying to look at WHY I had such a strong reaction.

I think part of my reaction is that I feel like those statements completely dismissed the fact that I haven't really allowed myself to feel the full range of feelings surrounding pretty much any of the traumatic events in my life.

Another statement that hit me hard was, "Forgiveness of others for me involves recognizing what I feel to begin with and my own contribution to it."

If I feel betrayed or rejected by my husband chasing after other women, I have to look at my contribution to it? I think feeling rejected in that situation would be quite normal. I there have been a lot of times in my life when I haven't allowed myself to feel the full range of emotions so to have somebody tell me to look at my contribution to what I feel is confusing. The above sentence doesn't even make sense to me in all honesty.

I am rambling again and I am not sure if I am contradicting myself or making any sense at all. I welcome any and all input. If I am too uncomfortable, I will walk away and come back when I think I can make some sense out of things.

Thank you again jhkbuzz for taking the time to stick with me on this!

[jhkbuzz]

First of all, I’m really glad you responded – I've been thinking about you!    I’m glad you believe that my intentions are good, and you’re clearly self-aware enough to recognize when you've been triggered – that’s important.

I’m not going to respond too much to your stuff with your sponsor. I really do think that may have been a quasi-therapeutic relationship with someone who was unqualified to engage in such a process.  It also sounds like she may have triggered you.  Someone with training would have stepped back from that, or let you proceed at your own pace in the first place.  You may have to consider accepting that her intentions were good but she was engaging in a process with you that she wasn't equipped to lead.

I’m also not going to address your r/s with your mom – I think that’s of lesser importance right now. I think you want to dig deep into yourself, and that’s where your work lies.

In thinking about radical acceptance and family of origin and my spouse, I feel like I have two things going on. On one hand, I feel like I accept them for who they are. Sure, they get on my nerves but I don't hold any ill will towards them. On the other hand, I still have negative feelings about some of the stuff that was done to me or some of the ways that I was treated by different people. The one thing that I want to deal with is the trauma aspects, which is about how I feel/felt about things rather than about anything specific such as a particular relationship.

YES. This is exactly where your work lies.  You can intellectually accept them for who they are - and that's good - but you still haven't processed some of the emotional trauma that they have caused in your life.

Your family of origin and your husband are really two separate categories, but you may find connecting “threads” between the two as you begin to dive in to process the trauma that you've experienced.

…One of the many paradoxes of trauma recovery is that by identifying and deeply exploring our feelings, we can actually change our situations. Our long-avoided, painful feelings open up to us and become present for healing. To accomplish this, you will benefit most by trying to identify with the feelings expressed rather than being hooked onto the situations in which they occurred.

That too!  This is the rub: it’s not an intellectual processing that you need to engage in; it’s the processing of your emotions.  That’s a whole different ballgame.

…I haven't really allowed myself to feel the full range of feelings surrounding pretty much any of the traumatic events in my life.

THAT^^^ is really important.

You may disagree , but it is exactly this process in which a therapist can be really helpful. I understand your feelings about therapy now that you've explained your family background. It sounds like it’s very important that you are in charge of the process, which is understandable. But I still think it is nearly impossible to process trauma without the help of a therapist.  We have spent YEARS of our lives suppressing some of this stuff – it doesn't come up easily.  Interestingly, my therapist has told me (in the work that I'm doing) that, when it's all said and done, I may not be able to explain HOW or WHY I've healed. I will just find that the things I've struggled with will be much less of a roadblock because I've processed the trauma. This is almost incomprehensible to me, but I trust her, so I believe her. She is an EMDR therapist, by the way.

I'm going to explain something else that my therapist told me last week - and I’m going to put this in my own words so I hope it makes sense. She was telling me that I have processed much of my breakup with my ex with my adult brain – so I’m making progress and healing.  But when we talk about my trauma from childhood (I was molested), I am still reasoning with my 7 year old brain because I’ve not processed the emotions, the shame, and the trauma surrounding those events.  I’m “stuck”.  And no amount of intellectual analysis can help me get through this – if it could I would have been healed years ago.  I can’t tell you how I’m going to process that trauma and those emotions – I've just started the journey – but as I begin making small steps of progress it feels noticeably different than when I “figure out” something on an intellectual level.  It’s a COMPLETELY different experience.

If I feel betrayed or rejected by my husband chasing after other women, I have to look at my contribution to it? I think feeling rejected in that situation would be quite normal. I there have been a lot of times in my life when I haven't allowed myself to feel the full range of emotions so to have somebody tell me to look at my contribution to what I feel is confusing. The above sentence doesn't even make sense to me in all honesty.

I agree completely.  The question would be more about what’s keeping you in the relationship, not how you contributed to his infidelity. His infidelity was solely his decision.

Thank you again jhkbuzz for taking the time to stick with me on this!

You are very welcome!

[Suzn]

I'm really sorry this happened with your sponsor.   It sounds like it was a completely invalidating experience for you. You did your part, you were serious about the program, you opened up and were vulnerable and you trusted her based on her years of experience. It sounds like you made the right choice for you to end this r/s with this woman as your sponsor.

There are several times you reference this woman being just like your mother which is someone you would never go to for help. Being angry with her (your sponsor) is projecting, there's anger in there. You have expressed many times here that you accept that your mother and FOO are who they are however this experience sounds like it was was infuriating to you. No judgment, it would be frustrating for anyone trying hard to get help and seemingly using your experiences to help themselves. Sound familiar?

If your parents sent you to therapy only to turn around and try to prove you were the problem when you trusted them? (Because parents are supposed to know better, to have your best interests at heart) You were betrayed by the people who you should have been able to trust the most. I'm sorry this happened to you. Is it possible you feel betrayed by this sponsor since you trusted her to know better, to have the answers?

I have lived most of my life in survival mode because my mother didn't protect me either, I get it. I have only recently realized that I have lived with some really deep anger, anger that I didn't even realize existed. I gave my mother and my family a free pass too. Until one day that free pass was no longer a good idea for me. I could not longer swallow it and hold it in and be healthy.

I hear you wanting someone to hear you. I hear you. When I identify an issue I expect to be able to fix it within myself and frankly I want it fixed right now and in a hurry. I don't want to be broken in any way, I don't want to lash out with PA or in any other way. Here's the thing, I did not escape unscathed and it's ok. It's not going to ruin the rest of my life. It doesn't sound like you plan on letting the past ruin the rest of your life either. Digging into our FOO is more about allowing ourselves to grieve what we didn't have and anger is a part of that process. And I'm not even suggesting you don't know that.

I agree a good therapist can identify things we don't see even if we are only in a session for 50 mins. Over time they begin to see and especially if we are self aware enough to know what to tell them initially. I use my T as a sounding board a lot. She knows I do this, I insist on her honesty as I am completely honest with her. I count on her insight though as an unbiased, trained professional. In my example above I knew I was projecting anger from my past, I went to her to confirm this and she did. She knows I know myself and is there for guidance, we work together. I am not pushing therapy and I agree with you that there are people not self aware enough or honest with themselves enough to get any benefit from it. Those who are however... .

To me RA is reaching a point where we no longer take the actions of other personally.