Have you become someone different as a result of your BPD partner?

[eyvindr]

I've come to think that the effects of the disease, untreated, can wreak havoc for sure.

But, at least in my life, I don't often feel like things happen to me without some level of participation. The exception would be sheer accidents, and illness. Like, if I am simply walking down the street, not doing anything silly, and I fall and break my ankle, that's no harm no foul.

If I've chosen to be in a relationship with someone who begins to display confusing, unsettling or abusive behaviors, whether self-inflicted or directed at me or others, and I choose to stay in that relationship, then my awareness if the issues puts at least some responsibility on me for whatever happens to me. I'm not in any way saying that, if we stay, we're as much to blame -- clearly, some of these people can be downright nasty and unpredictable, and they can do some thoughtless, impulsive and destructive things -- that's on them. But, if we know they are capable of this, and we stay, then we can't act like we never saw it coming.

It's like living in the midwest. You can't live there and not expect the weather to suck sometimes. You could move somewhere with better weather, but you choose to stay. Everyone has their reasons.

I will say that it's different if you have no frame of reference for this in your relationship. Like, the first time our partner flakes out on us -- that time I think we're justified in feeling ambushed. After that, it's a choice. We can decide that we don't ever want whatever happened to happen again, and leave. Or we can decide to stay. But we have to accept that, if we stay, we're exposed.

Of course, to love someone, you have to permit yourself to be vulnerable -- it doesn't work if we're constantly walking around with our shields up. That's what makes pwBPD dangerous -- we really do fall in love with them.

Think about it -- if you weren't in love with your BPD, would their behavior be half as painful for you?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

There is no room left for innocent delusions, otherwise reality smacks you in the face to wake you up.

You can achieve things, and you really appreciate them when you do. Nothing is taken for granted anymore

[Cat Familiar]

I've come to think that the effects of the disease, untreated, can wreak havoc for sure... .If I've chosen to be in a relationship with someone who begins to display confusing, unsettling or abusive behaviors, whether self-inflicted or directed at me or others, and I choose to stay in that relationship, then my awareness if the issues puts at least some responsibility on me for whatever happens to me. I'm not in any way saying that, if we stay, we're as much to blame -- clearly, some of these people can be downright nasty and unpredictable, and they can do some thoughtless, impulsive and destructive things -- that's on them. But, if we know they are capable of this, and we stay, then we can't act like we never saw it coming... .Think about it -- if you weren't in love with your BPD, would their behavior be half as painful for you?

Absolutely true. I feel like I've graduated from the "why me?" phase to the "OMFG, what have I done?" phase. I'm no longer grieving the relationship I thought I had, I'm now trying to strategize how to deflect as much of the incoming fire.

[Cat Familiar]

There is no room left for innocent delusions, otherwise reality smacks you in the face to wake you up.

You can achieve things, and you really appreciate them when you do. Nothing is taken for granted anymore

Yep, yep and yep.

[waverider]

If I've chosen to be in a relationship with someone who begins to display confusing, unsettling or abusive behaviors, whether self-inflicted or directed at me or others, and I choose to stay in that relationship, then my awareness if the issues puts at least some responsibility on me for whatever happens to me. I'm not in any way saying that, if we stay, we're as much to blame -- clearly, some of these people can be downright nasty and unpredictable, and they can do some thoughtless, impulsive and destructive things -- that's on them. But, if we know they are capable of this, and we stay, then we can't act like we never saw it coming.

Crossing a freeway is dangerous, we can choose to take that risk, doing it with our eyes closed is suicidal... Make sure your eyes are open folks, and dont cross freeways unless you have good reasons to do so

[Cole]

It seems like the person I am is very different than the person I should be... .if that makes any sense.

I didnt see this until recently. I put it off as a mid life thing. Most of the time I spend with my wife, I really am on guard to what I say, who I talk to and what topics are safe to discuss. I cringe when my phone rings and basically shut it off because it is most likely someone she hates. I know anything I say, can and will be used against me.

Does anyone else ever feel this way?

I know this sounds weak and looking for pity. I assure you that is not the case. I just wonder is she got just a little better how much more fulfilling life could be for us and for those I no longer talk to.

Wow. I could have wrote that. Really understand what you are going through.

[Mie]

I feel I have become someone different.

I used to be creative, adventurous and spontaneous. I was also fit and had gorgeus long hair and my own style. I had an old little sailing boat and a small functional car. And I had a good job. I was also used to freedom of expression and having fun with words.

It all turned upside down in 10 years. I am exhausted, all my energy goes to coping. I cut my hair because he insisted (you know when they insist... ), and I use very basic clothing because I'm tired of hearing remarks of 'artist style'. My boat was not a super yacht, but I had to sell it because needed money and he was constantly complaining and asking why I ever bought such a sh... .boat. Car, naturally, has to reflect your status, so good bye little vehicule... .And, theoretically, I could still have a good job (matching my qualifications). As for being fit... .I used to have time and energy for walking in the nature, swimming, yoga, biking. Not any more so much. Creativity has moved from the center to margin, as I don't make my living with it (any more). Spontaneous behavior (different from impulsive though) is not good when you live with BPD. I also have to be very careful with jokes, irony etc. which I find truly changing my communication.

My man says to me I have changed. He  says I used to be a strong and positive person, active and  always busy with some ideas. But he does not specify what I have became.

Gee, writing it down makes me see the crazyness again... .

[vortex of confusion]

Spontaneous behavior (different from impulsive though) is not good when you live with BPD. I also have to be very careful with jokes, irony etc. which I find truly changing my communication.

THIS! I am a natural born smart azz. I have to be so careful about making jokes around my husband. Just this morning, I was joking around with my daughter and he got a bit upset. Tonight, he tells me, I never know when you are joking and when you are being serious. UGH! I definitely have to turn down the joking as a result, I have become way more serious than I would like to be.

[Cole]

Spontaneous behavior (different from impulsive though) is not good when you live with BPD. I also have to be very careful with jokes, irony etc. which I find truly changing my communication.

THIS! I am a natural born smart azz. I have to be so careful about making jokes around my husband. Just this morning, I was joking around with my daughter and he got a bit upset. Tonight, he tells me, I never know when you are joking and when you are being serious. UGH! I definitely have to turn down the joking as a result, I have become way more serious than I would like to be.

I get where you are coming from!

The other day my wife was cutting up some vegetables. I said, "Chef Morimoto would have that done by now!" This has been a standing joke in our home for years, where Iron Chef America is a favorite program. But this time she went off on me and somehow turned it into a comparison between her and my sister-in-law. A few minutes later she was crying and could not understand why she did that. Just another reason in her mind to finally get a new T.     

[Deeno02]

This lady ruined me. Ive become a semi-recluse, depressed, zero confidence, afraid to go out in public because Im afraid I'll see her, irritable. I will say that this is so not me. While Ive never been a sunshine and unicorn farts type of guy, Im (was) friendly and quiet, but once the fun started, I was knee deep in the middle. I pissed testosterone as I was In the military for a billion years, so wasnt shy on confidence. My marriage of 18 years failed and I wasnt this bad. Funny how some mental, verbal and emotional abuse will kill your self worth and confidence. Im so guarded now and afraid to take a chance at dating/love again. Not real happy with this BS and while I suffer, she flitters away with another. FU*K her... .

[notdownyet]

Yes, this illness probably has changed me.

I'm certainly more self-aware in terms of my own behaviours, particularly in relation to my thought processes and interactions with others, and have a far greater understanding of mental health issues.

In some ways, I can cope a little better when faced with irrational thinking and behaviour; though certainly have my off days.  In some ways it feels like I cope better and worse at the same time.  I think this relates to not feeling as emotionally stable as I once was.

I understand a lot more about peoples personalities, and why people do the things that they do and why.

I'm more willing to challenge on issues that I know can lead to a full-blown argument, rather than tip-toe around on eggshells.

Part of me has accepted that I may have to be on my own, and my future isn't certain.

On the down side, this illness has opened-up old and previously unresolved personal issues and insecurities that I have.  Sometimes, I feel that I’ve returned to the emotional level that I was at, during my 20’s.  As a result, I'm more suspicious and paranoid, in particular about my wife’s behaviours and motives, and often feel that I’m being deceived in some way.

In general, I trust the world and the people in it a lot less.  That goes for medical professionals; people that interact with my family and above all, the people closest to me.

[Cat Familiar]

I feel I have become someone different.

I used to be creative, adventurous and spontaneous. I was also fit and had gorgeus long hair and my own style. I had an old little sailing boat and a small functional car. And I had a good job. I was also used to freedom of expression and having fun with words.

It all turned upside down in 10 years. I am exhausted, all my energy goes to coping. I cut my hair because he insisted (you know when they insist... ), and I use very basic clothing because I'm tired of hearing remarks of 'artist style'. My boat was not a super yacht, but I had to sell it because needed money and he was constantly complaining and asking why I ever bought such a sh... .boat. Car, naturally, has to reflect your status, so good bye little vehicule... .And, theoretically, I could still have a good job (matching my qualifications). As for being fit... .I used to have time and energy for walking in the nature, swimming, yoga, biking. Not any more so much. Creativity has moved from the center to margin, as I don't make my living with it (any more). Spontaneous behavior (different from impulsive though) is not good when you live with BPD. I also have to be very careful with jokes, irony etc. which I find truly changing my communication.

My man says to me I have changed. He  says I used to be a strong and positive person, active and  always busy with some ideas. But he does not specify what I have became.

Gee, writing it down makes me see the crazyness again... .

Oh, Mie, here's hugs for you.     

My first BPD husband was really controlling. He seemed very similar to your partner. I severed all kinds of parts of myself just to be in relationship with him. After our divorce, I went to a therapist and I remember something she said to me: "We need to build you a self."

So many years pass and now I'm with BPD husband number 2 and he tells me, "You're so self-centered. You don't care about me." In reality, I have to agree with the first statement, but disagree with the second.

It reminds me about what is said on airplanes when you're flying with a small child. "Put your oxygen mask on first."

The only way I can be of use to anyone is to take care of myself and stay mentally and physically healthy.

Recently my husband has started to get jealous of the time I spend working out--probably because he is such a couch potato. But I'm not going to quit doing that, although I did slack off during the holidays. I just must do what keeps me healthy rather than surrender to participating in his mental illness.

[waverider]

Recently my husband has started to get jealous of the time I spend working out--probably because he is such a couch potato. But I'm not going to quit doing that, although I did slack off during the holidays. I just must do what keeps me healthy rather than surrender to participating in his mental illness.

This is good, I am much the same. making sure I have a life is now my number one priority. I justify that by saying I respect her choices, and if she chooses to have no life that is here choice and I am not going to nag her to make more effort.

As a result this consistency means she realizes no amount of nagging is going get me to cancel my life, and she is not being pressured to do anything either, and this reduces defensiveness. Result is less conflict over these issues. Only time and consistency can achieve this.

The irony is that if you let them drain the life out of you so that you are no longer the strong person that attracted them, they loose respect for you.

[eyvindr]

Same here. When my ex fiancee from my r-ship prior to my current r-ship break-up and I moved to where I live now, it was because I'd accepted a new job. It was exciting -- we'd be able to really start a life together, and my then 9-yr-old son was with us -- his mother, my ex-uBPDw, had finally agreed to let me have primary physical custody, and we could put 100 miles between ourselves and the continuing chaos that was her daily existence -- bouncing from r-ship to r-ship, changing jobs, losing them, getting new ones, making new best friends (I called them her new support networks) as soon as she turned on her last ones.

Circumstances led us to pretty much live in our own little bubble. My son was in a new school, I was in a new job, new people, new responsibilities, my fiancee soon found a new job -- we really didn't have much time to get out and make new friends. Aside from the people I worked with, I didn't know anyone. When that r-ship ended, I found myself living in this place that isn't terribly interesting, in a career that wasn't all that exciting anymore -- and, worst of all -- alone. I had no social life. All of my time had gone to my ex, our r-ship and to raising my son.

It took about 5 yrs, but I changed it. By the time I met my most recent ex-uBPDgf, I'd established a new group of friends, I had things to do, I was a member of some organizations -- I was happy with my life, even though I was alone. And I was even happier when I met her, because I'd always heard people say "that's when it happens -- when you're content with yourself and your own life, and you aren't looking, you meet that special person" -- that's how it started. I kept up with my own life, too, thank God. While my ex did her damnedest to monopolize all of my time, and complained incessantly and bitterly about my gym time and my friends, I was able to maintain the awareness that it was healthy for me to have this in my life -- I wasn't spending time away from her trying to meet other women, I just had other friends. It's normal.

Thank God. Because my friends have been so crucial to my ability to weather the three break-ups I've been through with my ex. I don't know what I would have done if I'd have had to go through this experience alone.

[braveSun]

Recently my husband has started to get jealous of the time I spend working out--probably because he is such a couch potato. But I'm not going to quit doing that, although I did slack off during the holidays. I just must do what keeps me healthy rather than surrender to participating in his mental illness.

This is good, I am much the same. making sure I have a life is now my number one priority.

Ditto here. I have to have my own life in order to remain an interesting person. I justify it to my SO by reminding her that I need to go out in life and do my own thing. She doesn't want a bitter and boring kind of partner, nor do I. And it's more interesting in our conversations when we have new things to say.

The point here is that with this experience, I find myself to be really challenged to walk my talk. It's tiring, to have to resist the distortions in her thinking and her splitting, even though I know she is fully committed to recovery and in treatment. And than to have the courage and the energy to just go out there and do what I meant to do.

I'm in that phase right now, where I recognize the potential collateral damages it can do on me, (and it has at some point, because I had no idea what was going on before I learned about her condition). Yet I find it tiring.

I'm wondering how you guys, who have gotten to a success place with your SO, have found your way to manage your energy level and stay stable while in progress.

[waverider]

I'm wondering how you guys, who have gotten to a success place with your SO, have found your way to manage your energy level and stay stable while in progress.

Consistency gets you over the "hump". Consistency creates a belief in them that you are not abandoning them. There will always be dramas about something, as that is their need. They will find different subjects to create drama over.

Also once you realize that supporting them is a choice, and it is ok at times to choose not to and let the cards fall where they may. Your tools of repair and recovery will be greater so you can afford to take a break from being "on alert".

Dont expect to "walk my talk" all the time, I dont. Knowing the ideal thing to do is good, but then you can choose whether to do it or not, being fully aware of the consequences. Feeling obliged to always do the ideal thing leaves you with a martyr mentality, which will loop back into resentment, the very thing you are trying to avoid.

[Mie]

Consistency gets you over the "hump". Consistency creates a belief in them that you are not abandoning them. There will always be dramas about something, as that is their need. They will find different subjects to create drama over.

Probably one reason for us still being together, inspite of him threatening to leave all the time, is that I am a 'natural born consistent', rational thinker (less and less though), not moody person. Maybe I have, not knowingly, set boundaries by consistent attitude to certain things: my friends and family and my creative and recreational interests. No matter how crazy he goes verbally, he never for instance paints my friends and family black or rants about me doing yoga or art, as if they were forbidden areas. Also he never calls me fat, and I have heard all possible terrible names. As for anything rest, hell may brake... .

So, maybe I have not become someone totally different after all.  I have my corner stones and I still like myself.

[waverider]

Consistency gets you over the "hump". Consistency creates a belief in them that you are not abandoning them. There will always be dramas about something, as that is their need. They will find different subjects to create drama over.

Probably one reason for us still being together, inspite of him threatening to leave all the time, is that I am a 'natural born consistent', rational thinker (less and less though), not moody person. Maybe I have, not knowingly, set boundaries by consistent attitude to certain things: my friends and family and my creative and recreational interests. No matter how crazy he goes verbally, he never for instance paints my friends and family black or rants about me doing yoga or art, as if they were forbidden areas. Also he never calls me fat, and I have heard all possible terrible names. As for anything rest, hell may brake... .

So, maybe I have not become someone totally different after all.  I have my corner stones and I still like myself.

pwBPD are often fairly lazy and ranting and raving takes a lot of energy. They dont like wasting it on stuff that gets no result when there are so many other rewarding things to have hissy fits about.

So yes, you may not be able to stop them, but effective use of boundaries can channel them away from sensitive areas. The problem we have is it is naturally harder to not react irrationally when sensitive areas are under attack. This is why we hammer the boundaries lesson home. No point making boundaries over the easy stuff, we have to make them about the core issues that we need to protect.

In fact I have been known to get into arguments over stuff that doesn't bother me just to let me partner have a vent. I remember when my kids were little and they were in a destructive mode I used to give them a sheet of bubble wrap and let them spend ages just popping the bubbles until they got bored. Same principle

[braveSun]

Also once you realize that supporting them is a choice, and it is ok at times to choose not to and let the cards fall where they may. Your tools of repair and recovery will be greater so you can afford to take a break from being "on alert".

I realise that. I have chosen to 'radically take care of myself' rignt now, since she is in a good treatment center. I trust she is in good hands.

She still has behaviors which does not match my laid out boundaries around 'other potential partners' she keeps in the background. After a good talk with one of my support people, I realised that I was finding myself trapped into something I have never agreed to and consistently have been very clear about. It's so easy to get wrapped up into the 'it's not me, it's them' type of excuses.  

I told her yesterday that I am taking a 30 days NC for my own needs. Did let her speak her mind about it, all of it, gave my reasons, etc, and we started last night , when she told me she was 'ready'.  She is not consistent, though.

I am. In a way today I maybe felt some of the resentment you are talking about. Or maybe just a very strong need to just do what I need and want to do, with not bothering if she likes it or not. Listen to music she doesn't like and sing out loud while walking alone back home after a good work out, little things like that.  

Dont expect to "walk my talk" all the time, I dont. Knowing the ideal thing to do is good, but then you can choose whether to do it or not, being fully aware of the consequences.

Thanks waverider!... That makes a lot of sense. I'm not wanting to be 'the ideal' either, heck no! I'm human too.

[waverider]

Dont expect to "walk my talk" all the time, I dont. Knowing the ideal thing to do is good, but then you can choose whether to do it or not, being fully aware of the consequences.

Thanks waverider!... That makes a lot of sense. I'm not wanting to be 'the ideal' either, heck no! I'm human too.

I would rather face my partners displeasure than feel a failure within myself for not always being perfect.

It is too easy to set yourself up as failure in your own mind. Use knowledge as a tool, not your master, you dont always have to be a slave to best practice

[AnnaK]

I have definitely grown, and I am grateful for the opportunity.

If he stops painting me black, and after I recover, I'll go to live with him again.

Not only have I become stronger, recovered my blocked anger and learned to stand for my basic rights - I also learned to define those rights better (aka boundaries), and I stumbled upon endless questions of theoretical nature.

Like what is acceptable? Why? And to which extend?

Living there for long time though, tends to make a warrior out of me... .

I tend to learn to react instantly and efficiently to any emergency - but I forget how to smile.

It's like war zone.

[Haye]

Yup. I have become jealous and insecure. It's weird, horrible and totally not me. In my previous relationships I've been very flexible and not easily offended. I have for example lived happily in a partially open relationship for over a decade and considered myself able to deal with jealousy, envy, insecurity etc.

Nope. Not with this guy. My suspicisions wake easily, and i've started to worry about all kinds of situations were my SO would be meeting new people (female), like a new job or studying. My SO says it's really understandable as he is the only one that has done all kinds of stuff behind my back, lied etc. I don't like being on the edge and worrying what happens if he meets someone new somewhere.

I suppose I have also learnt to take better care of myself? Stuff like issuing a boundary and maintaining it has been hard. Realizing that no matter how much I love someone and how well I understand why he behaves like he does it is also up to me to make sure he doesn't pull me under. Learnt that I cannot really stop loving someone, but I sure can decide how i will act and how much bs i take.

[HappyNihilist]

Yup. I have become jealous and insecure. It's weird, horrible and totally not me. In my previous relationships I've been very flexible and not easily offended. I have for example lived happily in a partially open relationship for over a decade and considered myself able to deal with jealousy, envy, insecurity etc.

Haye, this was exactly my experience with my exBPDbf. I was never the jealous type, and have been in long-term open/poly relationships. But my ex felt that a lack of jealousy was a lack of love... .and over the course of my r/s, I became this jealous, insecure, desperate person that I didn't even recognize. I'm still trying to heal from that.

I could list all of the ways my ex conditioned me and brought this out... .but only after being out of the relationship for over 9 months and really examining both of our behavior, words, etc. 

Nope. Not with this guy. My suspicisions wake easily, and i've started to worry about all kinds of situations were my SO would be meeting new people (female), like a new job or studying. My SO says it's really understandable as he is the only one that has done all kinds of stuff behind my back, lied etc. I don't like being on the edge and worrying what happens if he meets someone new somewhere.

You're right... .it's difficult not to be suspicious when you know that he's engaged in that behavior in the past.

I did not have radical acceptance during the r/s. I accepted who he was but still took his behavior and the disorder personally. (I still feel that way sometimes. It's hard not to.) I think radical acceptance and taking care of ourselves is the only way to keep from becoming someone we don't recognize and/or like in these relationships.

[hergestridge]

I have become different alright.

Let me tell you this; I cringe when I think about how much I could have developed myself as a person had I not been put all this time and energy walking on eggshells for 20 years. Much of the time I got reprimanded for even concentrating on anything (she would notice!), because that would trigger her abandonment issues. I would sit on a chair by a computer in an adjescent room. Anything else would made her uncomfortable.

I know it feels better if it wasn't just a waste of time, but I think it's been important to be honest too. It is something in us that can't handle the pointlessness of locking someone into a basement for 10 years, so we ask the victim if there really wasn't something good about it too.

Partners of abusive people can be both willing participants and victims (sometimes both), but they rarely come out of it wiser (unless it was a short relationship and a one-off). The destructive dymanics of the relationships leaves you like a beaten dog and you have to re-learn what normal folks do.

The "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" attitude people have is very disturbing, because it doesn't work like that at all.

[waverider]

Betrayal begets lack of trust and faith. regardless of your values, betrayal starts when you feel like you are been sold a false image. You may be able to deal with open/poly relationships, but if you feel like what you believe is not reality then trust is eroded, and you start to feel uneasy.

This is where we separate values from specific issues. Your value is that you don't want to be sold something that is not the reality. No matter what the reality is. Being deceived in effect takes away your right to make accurate life choices based on truth.

[waverider]

Partners of abusive people can be both willing participants and victims (sometimes both), but they rarely come out of it wiser (unless it was a short relationship and a one-off). The destructive dymanics of the relationships leaves you like a beaten dog and you have to re-learn what normal folks do.

The "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" attitude people have is very disturbing, because it doesn't work like that at all.

I think this highlights the scarring that can occur when it goes without action for so long. The old school thinking of covering up rather than dealing with it has damaged many people.

Hopefully with the increasing awareness of personality disorders fewer people will be secretly trapped in it for as long as you have experienced.

I think support and education for those who have to life alongside these issues has been neglected for far too long.

[braveSun]

My SO says it's really understandable as he is the only one that has done all kinds of stuff behind my back, lied etc. I don't like being on the edge and worrying what happens if he meets someone new somewhere.

for him. He's right to have concerns for you.  

I totally agree with waverider. It's mostly the deceit that hurts so much. Like, how are you going to be able to trust someone who tells one thing and does another?... My partner has a sex addiction and it's a real unfortunate disposition. She does not want to act out. She wants to be herself. She wants to be trustworthy. Like everybody.

Trustworthiness is a great antidote to shame. It's at the core of a good self esteem.

You can't be truely *seen*, if you always have to hide what you are doing from an intimate partner. Conversely, if your are being intimate with someone who is not interested/avoidant in *seeing you*, than you are alone in that relationship. It's immensely devalidating at the core level.

I suppose I have also learnt to take better care of myself? Stuff like issuing a boundary and maintaining it has been hard. Realizing that no matter how much I love someone and how well I understand why he behaves like he does it is also up to me to make sure he doesn't pull me under.  

Good work! Sometimes it takes a hard look at how our 'self-esteem muscle has rusted'...

I think support and education for those who have to life alongside these issues has been neglected for far too long.

Absolutely!         

[HappyNihilist]

Betrayal begets lack of trust and faith. regardless of your values, betrayal starts when you feel like you are been sold a false image. You may be able to deal with open/poly relationships, but if you feel like what you believe is not reality then trust is eroded, and you start to feel uneasy.

This is where we separate values from specific issues. Your value is that you don't want to be sold something that is not the reality. No matter what the reality is. Being deceived in effect takes away your right to make accurate life choices based on truth.

This is so absolutely true and perfect. Thank you for posting this.

[eyvindr]

Amen, HappyNihi -- I couldn't agree more.

waverider -- that's as concise and in focus as it can get, imo.

Totally sig-worthy, if you don't mind!

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .