Contradiction between the local DV world and the BPDFamily world

[Radcliff]

See previous thread here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317050.0

I had been feeling some pressure between the local DV world and the bpdfamily world, but after reading Galt, rereading some of the replies here, and talking a bit more to local folks, everything is starting to converge.  It's still a little frightening, since either way this breaks, I'm looking at the end of things as I know them, but at least things are seeming like they agree.  At least, every source I've talked to is helping me to form a coherent picture, except for my wife.  My reality with her is still very different, and that is so mind-bending.  I suppose I just need to accept that.

The conversation with the DV therapist/interventionist today was very helpful.  She really seemed to know her stuff, and put me at ease.  This sounds silly, but her office suite had a beach theme, which is a special theme for my wife and I, and that seemed like the kind of place I could see my wife.  It looked homey, not sterile or rough.  Yes, I'm hopeless, I know.  One of my specific questions was about MC, and she said timing of when it is OK to start depended on the person, and two things needed to happen -- my wife would need to accept responsibility, and she would need to acknowledge the impact that the abuse had had on me.  That second part was a surprise, but it resonated with me, because I asked my wife last night to acknowledge this, and got nothing.  One of the other things the woman said to me is that finessing this so it goes over easy is not going to be possible.  I am still digesting that, but know it was important for me to hear.

I'll be working on flying straight and level for the next few days while continuing to prepare.  Thank you all for investing in me and believing in me.

RC

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[Turkish]

One of the other things the woman said to me is that finessing this so it goes over easy is not going to be possible. 

This is interesting. To me it may mean not rescuing her from her actions. What do you think?

[pearlsw]

Hi RC,

Are you getting all of the emotional support you need at this time? Do you need help with facing your fears?

Between your marriage/job issues/and your mother's illness this is a lot on your shoulders all at once!

-p.

[Skip]

two things needed to happen -- my wife would need to accept responsibility, and she would need to acknowledge the impact that the abuse had had on me.  That second part was a surprise, but it resonated with me, because I asked my wife last night to acknowledge this, and got nothing. One of the other things the woman said to me is that finessing this so it goes over easy is not going to be possible.

I'm glad the message is converging... .

Just wanted to reinforce a comment I have been making for a while and I don't think you are hearing it. These ongoing conversations with your wife are not helping matters... .its just one long debate and whatever message you were trying to get to her is long lost in the debate. Look at your original letter to her brother - it was a message going in 20 directions.

I'm not blaming you. I think you are increasingly seeing the path - and you are on a path to discovery. Your wife is not on a path yet. You keep trying to get her on your path, but what needs to happen is for her to get on her own path. The only thing that is going to motivate that is action.

She doesn't accept responsibility - or feel that it is a good idea to accept responsibility. In her defense, you are just learning this. She hasn't learned this yet. She isn't going to learn it from intellectual conversations with you. She is never going to suddenly see the light through talk. It doesn't happen this way. The light will need to come from someone outside the marriage as she seeks help in responding to your actions.

Stay steady and slowly tighten the rope. This is starting to get traction. Hr conversation with the brother and your letter to him brought a lot of daylight.

Has he responded?

[DaddyBear77]

RC, I’ve mentioned this several times but there are several parallels between our stories. Something I have realized is exactly what Skip is saying - the desire to change and look at her role is NOT a going to come from intellectual conversations. My wife is one of the smartest people I’ve ever met. She tells me she’s a genius all the time, and on this point I believe her. However, nothing I’ve said in all the sleepless nights and wasted days has ever changed her.

The last hope I had was when both her mom and her previous therapist had a focused effort on trying to get her out of the depths of depression and eating disorder. She could see she was literally dying and she couldn’t afford to wait for someone else to take the blame.

I’m starting to think that my wife (and yours) really needs to see that the end is happening - end of taking the abuse, end of hiding the abuse, end of the secrets, and maybe even the end of the marriage - she needs to feel like she’s dying before she’ll save herself. And then, once she feels like her world is coming to and end, she’ll beg you to stop it from happening - she will ask you to save her from the end of the world, and you’ll have to say No. And on the one hand, she knows coming to you and asking for this is a viable option because you’re the one tearing it down. Every single time you’ve stepped in that direction, she begs, you stop. This time, you’ll say “No.” A simple No. And you’ll repeat it. Lovingly, kindly, you’ll say No. Inside you’ll scream and panic and think a hundred times about stopping.

Don’t stop. No.

Then, to add insult to injury, she’ll leave you alone and talk to someone else. Go prep her brother and everyone else with all the info they’ll need to be the ones that amplify your messsge when your wife finally goes to them

[Radcliff]

<b>:)B, I was rereading your comment from a while back that I need to stop being my wife's emotional caretaker.  That advice has started to sink in.  Thanks.

I mentioned above that the DV intervention counselor said to me that finessing this so it goes over easy is not going to be possible.

This is interesting. To me it may mean not rescuing her from her actions. What do you think?

I had been asking her how to set the stage to deliver news around consequences and drastic action by me, hoping that I could do it artfully enough to avoid the most harsh consequences.  You will recognize my approach here.  She said my expectations are unrealistic.  It is going to be cataclysmic.  Short answer, yes, I have been protecting my wife from the consequences of her actions.  I have had trouble seeing this because what is required from me now is large action -- it is not merely stopping protection of her.    But failing to act as my values and my responsibility to myself and my children would otherwise compel me to act is in fact shielding her.

pearlsw, thanks for asking about emotional support.  In the last several days, it has been rough.  I have found myself dissociating quite a bit.  Confronting this has required me to remove all the protections that allowed me to survive for so long (denial, forgetting, minimizing, appeasing, etc.).  I also am having to conceal a lot from my wife while spending a lot of time with her.  The pressure is tremendous.  I am definitely not dealing with my mother's illness, and need to.  I have been talking to my dad, and last night called the DV Hotline just to talk to someone for a few minutes.  I am going to get a recommendation for a DV-experienced therapist, as I'm realizing that it's going to get worse before it gets better and I'm going to need more support.

Just wanted to reinforce a comment I have been making for a while and I don't think you are hearing it. These ongoing conversations with your wife are not helping matters... .its just one long debate and whatever message you were trying to get to her is long lost in the debate... .

Your wife is not on a path yet. You keep trying to get her on your path, but what needs to happen is for her to get on her own path. The only thing that is going to motivate that is action.

She is never going to suddenly see the light through talk. It doesn't happen this way. The light will need to come from someone outside the marriage as she seeks help in responding to your actions.

Skip, it was helpful to hear this message repeated, and it definitely helped me frame my thoughts in the last couple of days.  I have not been trying to convince her lately, but simply by maintaining my honesty as I buy a little time, the issues come up and I can see that no amount of talking is going to change things.  Action-wise, I don't have any moderate options, except the long-shot hope that the brother is willing to engage and is convincing.  I have not sent the message yet.  I need to wait a couple more days, but it is an important part of the plan, and is very important to me personally to make that effort.

One thing that is still messing with my head is "intermittent reinforcement," that she can be nice and normal, and even with just a few moments of nice normalcy, the siren's song luring me back is incredibly strong, and the guilt feelings around what I may have to do well up.  Today she made an appointment for me to see my doctor tonight.  Half caretaking, half (hopefully unconscious) gaslighting.  Of course, yesterday she told me I wasn't allowed to take a shower.  So hard to reconcile all of the realities.

Thank you all for your continued support.  I will keep you posted.

RC

[Skip]

One thing that is still messing with my head is "intermittent reinforcement," that she can be nice and normal, and even with just a few moments of nice normalcy, the siren's song luring me back is incredibly strong, and the guilt feelings around what I may have to do well up.  Today she made an appointment for me to see my doctor tonight.  Half caretaking, half (hopefully unconscious) gaslighting.  Of course, yesterday she told me I wasn't allowed to take a shower.  So hard to reconcile all of the realities.

Blaise Aguirre speaks of the difference between habilitation and rehabilitation. Its an important point here. He also speaks of learned behavior vs manipulation. Another point.

I'd watch the video - I've viewed it at least 6 times and I learn something each time - he shares a lot of insight, even in his digressions.

Remember my video of Charli and the husky attacking her? Charli never fights back and never yields. Every time a dog come after her, they don't know how to deal with this and the aggression ends. I've watched that video many times as it shows me the difference between domination and strength.  Your wife lives in a world where domination rules. Strength is the antidote and it looks nothing like domination.

The is a reason why everything is the way it is. Its a complex puzzle, but there is a path out. You have to stand your ground and you have to get a lot of daylight in there. She may follow or she may walk... .the hard part is that if she follows, it will likely happen after all her learned behavior is found to be futile.

Careful on waiting too long to respond to the brother - any cry of urgency is defeated by slow response. I again encourage you to move on this and not try to script it all. The scripting will be read as manipulation by all involved. Note: She didn't script, she picked up the phone and cut your effort off at the knees.

[Radcliff]

Skip, I watched the Charli video again, repeating the critical second when Charli turns things around about a dozen times to make sure I "got" it.  Impressive.  Charli's got me beat, but I'll work on it!  I'm in the middle of watching Aguirre again, thanks.

Skip, your caution about losing momentum and a sense of urgency by waiting too long to talk to her brother resonates with my own concern, so it's probably good to re-evaluate.  Having been burned once by my security lapse, I've been reluctant to discuss plans, but I think I ought to give an update and get feedback.

At the same time I posted the draft message to the brother here, I ran it by my lawyer.  She liked it, but said I should wait until we had the restraining order to send it.

Backing up a bit, my lawyer is fully supportive of the idea of getting the order, but pausing before serving it and having one more attempt with my wife's brother.  When she said we should wait for me to contact him until after the RO was received, that felt appropriate to me because I feel extremely exposed to false claims of abuse by my wife, but it has taken longer for the lawyer to draft the RO than I expected (about a week and a half, which doesn't seem out of line for a non-emergency, just longer than I expected).  Hopefully the RO request will be filed tomorrow, and my lawyer expects it to take several days to receive the RO.  It has now been six days since my last text to my brother in law.

And my "risk free script"  that is not really risk free gets worse.  Next weekend, Friday-Monday, 3-6 November, I'm traveling to visit my mother.  It would be terrible for my mother if I cancel the trip.  Were she not terminally ill, I'd certainly just cancel it.  If I go on the trip, I can't very well set off a firestorm at home, possibly turf my wife from the home, and then skip town.  Contacting the brother could also set off a firestorm.  The "safest" thing to do, which was already feeling like a bad plan due to loss of momentum, was to wait until November 7 to contact the brother.  Total momentum loss.

Let me describe a potential better plan and ask for feedback.  First, get the RO request filed, hopefully tomorrow.  By noon tomorrow regardless, in time for her to respond before the weekend, I tell my lawyer thanks for her advice, but I need to contact my brother in law this weekend.  Maybe she'll teach me why this is a bad idea, but probably she will yield as long as I accept the risk.  I would then send the e-mail and hope to have a conversation with my brother in law this weekend, in which I'd plan with him to turn up the heat on my wife on November 7 (he knows my mother is ill), assuming he was willing to participate.  If he talks to my wife next week, the ensuing storm could scuttle my trip.  That's essentially my trade, preserving the momentum with brother in law at the expense of risking my trip to see my mother.

More details on the trip -- it's to a wildlife refuge with my sister and my mom, so the weekend can't be moved.  I could leave the two of them to go alone, and fly out to see my Mom at a later date (silver lining, more 1:1 time with her), with my dad flying in to cover the kids, but I think if my wife is out on an RO it could become difficult for me to leave the kids for the remainder of November and December, which is too long to be away from my mom, making it important to try to get out there on November 3.

So, I think I may need to compromise, contacting my brother in law this weekend, and hoping that I can still go on the trip, but accepting some risk.  I would value feedback on this situation.  Are there options I'm not seeing?  Is my proposed rebalancing closer to the mark, or still off kilter?

RC

[Skip]

It sounds like your getting advice from a lot of resources and its important to be clear on one vision - following everyone's guidance might get you at cross purposes. All three can have great, but different  strategies, and you can't necessarily follow everyone's advice. I know you know this, I'm just reminding you.

My question is whether you can do the brother/daylight/accountability partner immediately following an RO and removing her from the house... .

Your wife blocked you on the brother and whatever she said, led him to say to you "he wasn't comfortable talking on the phone with you, but that if there was anything he needed to know to help my wife, it would be OK for me to text or e-mail him". We don't know what she said, but it sounds like she elicited him to help her against you.

I think whatever she said + the pending RO which would separating her from the kids, will have her family quickly behind their daughter/sister to fight the RO - not help you.

And btw, suggesting a 10 day pause in a traumatic time like this will be gas on fire.

It sounds like the professional advice you are getting says that she is recalcitrant enough that you need to play hardball.

This may mean that a letter to the brother may need to be explaining the dv attacks (as you did in the draft) and to explain that you took this drastic action (RO) because your wife blocked all reasonable actions including involving him/his to be accountability partners.

[flourdust]

I don't know what your relationship to your brother-in-law is, but his response to you was extremely disengaged at best, adversarial at worst. I could interpret that as he's not that interested in your marriage, or getting involved in your domestic issues, or in taking sides against his sister -- or he's already been primed to distrust you by his sister, and so he won't talk to you on the phone but will accept written documents that he can forward to her.

Either way, he doesn't sound like any kind of white knight who will rescue you from this situation.

Go ahead and send the letter, if you want. It provides a paper trail for you (though I'm not sure how that's more useful than just writing the letter and giving it to your lawyer to timestamp and hold as evidence). The most likely outcomes are that the brother does nothing or that the brother forwards it to your wife immediately.

How does that impact your planning?

[Radcliff]

Hello all,

I'm grateful for your help on this.  A rapidly evolving situation is not my strength, and my abilities are pretty severely diminished further by stress and anxiety.  I'm writing an awful lot, and asking for a lot of decision support help, and regret having to ask for this much help.  I'm completely good with making and owning my own decisions, but feel like my ability to assess the big picture and weigh different factors is completely shot.  Thanks for helping me through this.  I am looking forward to getting better and resuming my contributions to return a multiple on your investment to bpdfamily.

All three can have great, but different  strategies, and you can't necessarily follow everyone's advice.

Agreed.  My task is to gather perspectives and create and own one plan.  Every advisor has only a piece of the picture, and I'm on an odyssey I will only do once, and need to get right.

My question is whether you can do the brother/daylight/accountability partner immediately following an RO and removing her from the house... .

No.  Once the RO is served, things would go to hell in a handbasket immediately.  I would have to establish a safe household, make sure the kids are OK, and then see what things look like.  The idea was to have the brother in law try to talk her into at least an intro meeting with a batterer program head/therapist before serving the RO, in hopes of avoiding the RO.  I'm growing concerned that my hopes there may be unrealistic.

Your wife blocked you on the brother and whatever she said, led him to say to you "he wasn't comfortable talking on the phone with you, but that if there was anything he needed to know to help my wife, it would be OK for me to text or e-mail him". We don't know what she said, but it sounds like she elicited him to help her against you.

Yes, I expect that she minimized what she's done.  She has told me that he thought I was crazy, but she has also said that about many other people, so I think there's some fabrication going on to manipulate me.  flourdust, this background addresses your questions as well:

I have a pretty close relationship with her brother-in-law.  Her father died when she was four, and he, though only three years older, is the closest thing she has to a father figure.  He and I have enough similarities that we enjoy long conversations at family get togethers.  I expect him to look out for his sister's interests before mine, and in my Boy Scout caretaking way, that is why I contacted him when she was hospitalized (he and I are both Eagle Scouts  

When I spoke to my brother-in-law the night my wife was hospitalized, I explained that I thought she had BPD.  He did not seem to have a hard time believing this, and described his awareness of BPD from understanding his own wife's FOO, and also described some incidents of their parent's behavior when they were kids.

What do I expect from my brother-in-law?  I expect there is a small chance he could intervene and help avoid an RO.  I expect there is a good chance that if I send a message giving the background, that he will believe me enough not to validate the invalid, helping to avoid her family becoming a pool of ill-informed animosity that fuels a campaign against me.  This would increase the small chance that she might come around and seek treatment post-RO.

I would like to think that I could go for the long shot -- get my brother-in-law to talk her into intervention therapy without an RO.  But my wife made an unsolicited remark again last night about staying away from her family.  If she suspects my involvement with her family, she will have a very strong reaction.  If she finds out while I'm out of state visiting my Mom, I worry about what will happen.

I think whatever she said + the pending RO which would separating her from the kids, will have her family quickly behind their daughter/sister to fight the RO - not help you.

My best hope post RO is that her family gives her emotional and decision support, but does not buy into a narrative that she has been wronged and I am a villain.  I expect my brother-in-law to say, "What do you want to do here, and how can I help you?" not, "How can I help you and RC save the marriage?"

And btw, suggesting a 10 day pause in a traumatic time like this will be gas on fire.

Skip, sorry, please clarify your meaning here.  Clearly, telling the brother-in-law to wait until I get back from my trip to see my mother is a non-starter.  But do you also mean that I can't wait until November 7 to escalate and serve the RO?

It sounds like the professional advice you are getting says that she is recalcitrant enough that you need to play hardball.

I have been face-to-face with two DV advocates, and two batterer intervention and victim therapists.  Last Friday, in four separate conversations, four people told me that it appeared that I was doing all the work to recover from DV, that my wife was doing nothing, and that unless she was willing to do the work, there would be no recovery of the relationship.  The batterer/victim therapist who I met Monday is the most centered/balanced/experienced voice I've heard so far.  She said to just serve the RO.  She was worried that attempting to have a final conversation with my wife to pressure her into intervention would be both futile and a risk to my safety.  I'm not necessarily going to hide behind that, though; if there's a reasonable path to have the conversation with my wife, I'm willing to do it.  I'm less concerned about my safety than the therapist.  Things get simpler if I let go of the trip to see my mother.

This may mean that a letter to the brother may need to be explaining the dv attacks (as you did in the draft) and to explain that you took this drastic action (RO) because your wife blocked all reasonable actions including involving him/his to be accountability partners.

Yes, I think you've opened up an important alternative course for me to consider.

Questions I need to resolve:
1.  Do I attempt to involve the brother before serving the RO?
2.  If I assume that there is no way to avoid the RO, do I have to escalate and serve the RO this week, or can it wait until Nov 7?  If I serve the RO this week, I will have to cancel the trip to see my mother.  Serving the RO will be cataclysmic anyway, so do I lose by waiting a week?  Does it diminish the chances my wife will do therapy and come back to the marriage?

I'll need to own the answers to these questions myself, but on Question 1, I'm having trouble objectively assessing the success/failure tradeoffs, and everyone's perspective would be helpful.  Likewise, on #2, I'm having a hard time being objective about the impact of delaying RO service by a week, and having a hard time with the idea of canceling a trip to see my mother (she is declining, so waiting a couple of months to reschedule is a big deal).

If anything is becoming obvious to you that is not yet to me, feel free to hit me over the head with it

Thank you all,

RC

[Harley Quinn]

RC, is your mother too unwell to travel to you?  I'm sorry to hear she's declining, and I'm sure your answer will be yes she is.  Thought I'd ask though to see if that could be an option.  Could you reschedule to a time when you can take the kids with you?

I'd say that telling the brother that he is your last hope before having to resort to an RO because every option has then failed, should motivate him to get involved.  If he shares this with your wife and the RO is ready to go, that might not be a bad thing.  It would also tell her that you won't be controlled and that you have tried all you can to resolve things without having to go to extreme measures.  It's then up to her whether she pulls herself together and gets on board or opts for the RO by her actions in response to this news.

The timing is terrible for you - I hear that - but we can't plan for everything and I think that it is time to tackle the situation at hand then let the chips fall.  Your attempt with the brother is to try a final effort before the RO, so sending after RO doesn't fit with your ideal.  What feels right to you?  If you're resigned to going straight to RO, will you feel comfortable that you didn't contact him first?  Only you know the whole situation that you're living.  If you're at that point, then act on it.

Love and light x

 

[Skip]

You could go with a sequence like "here is what happened, I've being blocked on all avenues of help, can you help us" note and copy your wife. If she blows, file the restraining order. All of this needs to take president over visiting your mom... .and that sucks.

These capitalizes on the momentum, stresses the sense of urgency, and frankly, will make the filing of the RO seem right and preserve your integrity with the family.

[flourdust]

Thanks, that does clarify the relationship with the brother. He may end up being helpful, though probably not helpful enough to change the trajectory of the situation any. I'm curious why you are so interested in her family's opinion of you. This seems to be priority #10 on a list of 9 items -- in other words, it's only relevant to your ego, so let it go. They'll believe what they want -- and they are her family. As you and your wife head your separate ways, they'll become less and less a part of your life.

Likewise, when I look at your priorities -- I think the visit to mom has to be put on hold. This is a tough one to hear, but your home situation is an emergency, and another visit with your mom would be nice, especially considering her failing health ... .but you two are in contact, and you can't let the emergency continue for the sake of a planned visit.

[Radcliff]

Skip, HQ, and flourdust, thanks for the rapid replies.  Having three perspectives is super valuable.

HQ,  you are dialed in to where I'm at.  Your reply nailed it on the facts and the emotions, and spoke to me well.  My mom can still travel, so that's an option.  I will not feel right unless I make an attempt with the brother first, though I know it's a long shot.

    You could go with a sequence like "here is what happened, I've being blocked on all avenues of help, can you help us" note and copy your wife. If she blows, file the restraining order.
     These capitalizes on the momentum, stresses the sense of urgency, and frankly, will make the filing of the RO seem right and preserve your integrity with the family.

I hadn't thought to copy my wife.  She would certainly blow.  That would give me justification for the RO, but I think the true path is likely to send a note to the brother and see how he responds, and if he is not willing to engage, to have one more conversation with her where I tell her what I need, but don't push or threaten.

All of this needs to take president over visiting your mom... .and that sucks.

Skip, thanks, and thanks to HQ, and flourdust for your similar remarks.  Yup, I am coming to accept that after resisting for a while.

I'm curious why you are so interested in her family's opinion of you.

Not exactly.  I have accepted that my good relationship with them may end forever.  But if I want a chance to save the relationship, it is very helpful if they are not putting a lot of energy behind my wife with a false impression of what's going on.  She has five living brothers, so that's a lot of potential energy pushing in an unproductive direction if they are ill-informed.  Even if the relationship can't be saved, if she has support for a warped reality it could influence custody resolution.

Thank you all for the help.  I feel like I have clarity now.  I will have to manage things for a few more days and then act.  RO request should go in this afternoon.  I need to mull over whether I feel safe enough to send the message to her brother before or after receiving the RO.

RC

[Harley Quinn]

RC, if you're talking about immediate physical safety, the police are only a phone call away.  Never forget that.

Love and light x

[Radcliff]

HQ, I will remember that, thanks for the reminder.  I may swing by the police station before any tough discussions with my wife and give them a copy just so they know what's going on.  

I may decide not to explicitly discuss an RO with her.  This would help on the physical safety issue, but more because of advice I received from the DV batterer/victim therapist.  She said my wife might feel super threatened by it, and appear to play along, but then reverse course.  Two batterer program heads I talked to said that "volunteers" typically don't work out well because they don't have any oversight and aren't as committed as if they had received a court order.

I may just say what I need -- enthusiastic participation by her in intervention as well as therapy, with transparency to me, and see if she goes for it.  With her brother, I may verbally say (if he talks to me) that getting her to agree to intervention may feel unattractive to her, but is much better than other options.

RC

[Harley Quinn]

I think the letter you drafted could be edited to say that and you should send.  If he has said he isn't happy to talk over the phone with you then perhaps he would feel disgruntled if you go against that and it could give weight to whatever your wife said to him.  Especially if she has turned things around onto you.  There's also the fact he may feel it isn't secure to talk to you openly on the phone in case she can listen in on another line.  What does your gut tell you to do?  Did you know your gut and heart are also brains?  I read about this somewhere... .OK I'm tired and it's late but I hope you get where I'm coming from.  It's important to listen to your heart and gut as well as your head.

Love and light x   

[Radcliff]

Hello all,

The RO was approved yesterday.  I will send the message to my brother-in-law by midday today, aiming to talk to him this afternoon/evening and have one last conversation with my wife this evening.  (My lawyer advised me not to send the message to my brother-in-law until the RO was approved, and she and I agreed that I couldn't risk setting off a firestorm without the RO in hand.)  

My wife initiated conversations last night.  When she said that nothing had really happened, I described four assaults in detail, three of which had happened in the room we were in.  I calmly but firmly said that I was not willing to invest more in the relationship unless she was willing to get professional help on the DV, she took responsibility for all that had happened, and she acknowledged all the damage she had done to me.  She was unmoved, and kept pointing back at me.  Assuming my lawyer has no objections, I plan to contact the police department to let them know what I'm doing, in case things get out of hand tonight and I need to call them.  I am going to talk to my lawyer to see if we can get the RO served tomorrow if things don't go well tonight.

Thank you all.  There is no way I could have gotten to this point without your help.  I am not happy about what's about to happen, but I'm glad to be acting rather than feeling trapped, and the discussion and time to plan has helped me to feel like I'm on the path I need to be on, and for the right reasons.

RC

p.s.  Oh my.  My wife just texted me, saying, "Here's a link to an anger management class for you... ."

She also has recently told me that I'm a psychopath, and she has talked to many people about me and they all agree that I have serious problems.

We are certainly not on the same page!


 

[Skip]

Does the RO require her to move out?

[pearlsw]

Hi RC, Wow. These are big, important steps and life changes! I want to extend my support and compassion for all it took to get to this point.

I hope your night is not too terrible! We'll be thinking you and wishing you all the best to get through this rough day! 

[Radcliff]

Yes, the RO requires her to move out.  She has been continuing her texts, accusing me of being an abuser and saying I've left bruises on her and that I owe it to my daughter to face what I have done.  My lawyer has now advised that I not contact her brother until after the RO is served.  I'm not happy about this, but it does feel safest.  We need to get safe and into separate spaces and then sort things out.

My lawyer is arranging for the process server to serve the RO tomorrow morning.  I am going to stop by the police station on the way home from work to give them a copy of the RO in case I end up having to call them later tonight.  It will likely get mighty uncomfortable tonight.

RC

[Skip]

What have you told your daughter?
Are you planning to email the brother right after she is served?
Have you protected the bank accounts? Will the door locks be changed?

[Radcliff]

What have you told your daughter?
Are you planning to email the brother right after she is served?
Have you protected the bank accounts? Will the door locks be changed?

Good questions.  Thanks for the reminders.
I have not told D12 or D17 anything.  Can't risk it.  I am working on my script in my head.  May post on that today if I have time.

Yes, I will e-mail brother right after it is served.  That reminds me, I should tweak the draft and get it reviewed by my lawyer this afternoon so it's ready to go tomorrow morning.

The bank accounts are joint, so she has a right to access them.  That reminds me, though, that I need to make sure my passwords work -- my wife and I frequently get innocently tangled up with password changes.  The RO says she can have access to cash for expenses but can't do anything crazy like selling things.  We've managed risk there as best we can.

RC

[Skip]

What if she drains the accounts in retaliation?

I would give your daughter a note. It will be a bit hysterical when you are talking - when she calms she can read it.

[Radcliff]

What if she drains the accounts in retaliation?

There is some risk there.  That is why the RO addresses it.  I'll keep an eye on things and if need be, I can give a copy of the RO to the bank.  I'm OK with the risk level; I can't immunize myself against all bad things, and need to concentrate on physical/emotional safety first.  I do have some money set aside that can keep lights and lawyers going for a couple of months if need be.

I would give your daughter a note. It will be a bit hysterical when you are talking - when she calms she can read it.

I will consider that, thanks for the idea.  If things go as planned, my wife will be out of the house by the time my daughter gets home from school, so there will be no hysteria.  My preference is to talk to her rather than write a note -- more personal.  I will have an hour or two before she goes to gymnastics for a few hours, so I can feed her and get her to gymnastics -- supporting her normal routine.  A key question for D12 is whether to be transparent and say it's a court order.  My first thought was to say that Mom is going to be staying somewhere else to get some space, but I don't like the idea of her feeling like her Mom abandoned her voluntarily.  Of course, the truth isn't any better.  At some point she needs to understand that her Mom was operating way outside the rules, that there are consequences, and I'd like her not to be thinking that I'm being inappropriate, but that's an awful lot to get into one conversation with a twelve year old girl.

Hey, flourdust, any thoughts on D12 approaches?

RC

[Skip]

I do have some money set aside that can keep lights and lawyers going for a couple of months if need be.

OK. Just remember, if she takes all the money, even with a court order, it will take time to get the money back - months.

My preference is to talk to her rather than write a note -- more personal.

I was saying, "in addition to". Not everything you say will sink in. You probably need to explain that there has been physical abuse.

If things go as planned, my wife will be out of the house by the time my daughter gets home from school, so there will be no hysteria.  I will have an hour or two before she goes to gymnastics for a few hours, so I can feed her and get her to gymnastics -- supporting her normal routine.  

Are you assuming that mom won't call her the minute she gets served and tell her that you are manipulating the court and kicking her mom out of the house with no place to stay and blocking her from seeing her children.

At some point she needs to understand that her Mom was operating way outside the rules, that there are consequences, and I'd like her not to be thinking that I'm being inappropriate, but that's an awful lot to get into one conversation with a twelve year old girl.

Interested to hear what others say. I think I would also write it down for D12 and answer the questions she will surely have?

Where is mom?
Is she ever coming back?
When is she coming back?
When can we see her?
Are you getting a divorce?
Why did you do this to us?

Remember, you wife will likely get to the kids and say that you are doing something wrong.

I would anticipate that your wife will go far and wide to tell a story of you abusing her and take preemptive action. Get the story out before she does.

[Radcliff]

Skip, good advice, all of it, especially the questions to prepare for.  Thanks!

I'd welcome any input from others as well... .

[pearlsw]

That is a tough age. My mom walked out on us at about that age - 11. She was falling apart while my dad was dying of cancer. I was pretty upset and told her if she left I didn't need her anymore. I was scared because we were all too young to drive him to the hospital. It set the tone for our relationship never really clicking after that. In time I understood she was falling apart, but still, that it got to that point - I still remember those moments. They were life defining. I worry how much blame is gonna be put on you. Your mom going away for any reason is obviously pretty scary for a kid. They will likely be begging you to make the pain stop too.

So, I'd get in there and get the themes and narrative set. This is not about punishment, it is about safety. It is about healing. It is about the family getting better, etc. They need a lot of love! A sense of hope and possibility might make it all seem less scary. Letting them know when and how they can see her and that being made as okay for them as possible is in the mix. Oh, poor kids. But it's gotta happen.

The D12 especially could be very upset with you, especially since the mom has mocked you for calling this DV and she went along with the mom diminishing it. Are you gonna take the kids at home to a family therapist to explain what is happening? They also need some age appropriate education on DV so they can understand the big picture.

Take good care! Pulling for all of you!

[Radcliff]

Good advice, pearlsw, thanks.  Yes, I'm planning on getting a therapist, at least for D12.  I do expect some blowback from her, so I won't be surprised by it.

The following advice in particular is helpful to me, thanks:

So, I'd get in there and get the themes and narrative set. This is not about punishment, it is about safety. It is about healing. It is about the family getting better, etc. They need a lot of love! A sense of hope and possibility might make it all seem less scary. Letting them know when and how they can see her and that being made as okay for them possible is in the mix. Oh, poor kids. But it's gotta happen.

D17 is old enough, and can drive, so I made sure that the RO was written so that D17 has complete freedom to interact with her mom as often and whenever she likes.  The D12 situation is the tricky one, as my wife was indoctrinating her, she's less independent at that age, etc.

RC