Part 2: Marriage counseling w/BPD wife

[RBGE]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339327.0;all

Sorry to hear it was rough.  Tell us more about it when you're ready.

RC

Hey, thanks for asking. Just writing this stuff down helps a lot. First I'll highlight the major mistake I made during the session, which might have ruined it and I'm still being punished for nine hours later. The MC asked what what my T told me I should do to address our marriage problems. Like an idiot, I told the truth and said it is my T's opinion that I would be better off without her.

MC said my T is "wrong" and the problems in our marriage can be solved "easily." I said that is great and I'm willing to try anything. MC also said it is fine to leave during a fight if I need to but not as often as I have been.

Wife told the MC how I throw everything my T says in her face (not true in the slightest). Wife then said she's thinking about filing a complaint against my T with the state licensing Board and she wishes my T would just "go away." Wife doesn't even know my T and only met her once about a year ago.

Then came wife's hours of tears and silence following the session. What little conversation we did have was about how mean I am, she can't trust me, I betrayed her and she doesn't know if she will show up to the next scheduled MC session on Monday.

Wife is hurting me but she won't be able to forever. I'm that much closer to leaving with my belongings and pets and there will be no turning back after that.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Stillhopeful4]

RBGE,

So sorry to hear your session went poorly.

Wife is hurting me but she won't be able to forever. I'm that much closer to leaving with my belongings and pets and there will be no turning back after that.

It sounds like you have already made up your mind and aren't open to fixing things?  If your MC said they can be fixed "easily" do you think it's worth a try? 

((HUGS)

SH4

[GaGrl]

"Fixed easily"?

Hmmmm...either the MC has little experience with BPD or PDs, or he/she is minimizing the actual work involved.

[Radcliff]

This won't be fixed easily.  If the situation is to improve, it's going to require a lot of work and commitment.  It's not clear that you're in the game.  I can totally understand how your T might say you're better off without her, and can totally understand how you might have "one foot out the door."  Many of us have been in similar situations.

Part of many of our experiences is feeling powerless in the face of traumatizing behaviors by our partners.  Thinking about leaving helps us feel less powerless and sometimes is the only way we can think of to ease the pain.  Choosing to stay and work for a time can also be an exercise of personal power.  Sometimes this choice to stay results in a "save."  Sometimes it leads to an exit where we feel like we've done everything we could and where we've learned as much as possible to benefit future relationships.

In order to work on this and give it a shot, you need to have both feet in the door.  You can periodically reassess things, but with one foot out the door any efforts at saving things are doomed.  Are you willing to put both feet in the door for now?

RC

[RBGE]

RBGE,

So sorry to hear your session went poorly.

It sounds like you have already made up your mind and aren't open to fixing things?  If your MC said they can be fixed "easily" do you think it's worth a try? 

((HUGS)

SH4

Yes I do think it's worth a try. We've been together for a decade and I'm willing to hang in there if she is.

[RBGE]

Part of many of our experiences is feeling powerless in the face of traumatizing behaviors by our partners.  Thinking about leaving helps us feel less powerless and sometimes is the only way we can think of to ease the pain.  Choosing to stay and work for a time can also be an exercise of personal power.  Sometimes this choice to stay results in a "save."  Sometimes it leads to an exit where we feel like we've done everything we could and where we've learned as much as possible to benefit future relationships.

In order to work on this and give it a shot, you need to have both feet in the door.  You can periodically reassess things, but with one foot out the door any efforts at saving things are doomed.  Are you willing to put both feet in the door for now?

RC

You have a very accurate read on me as far as feeling powerless and contemplating leaving as way to ease the pain. Yes, I am willing to have both feet in the door for now. This marriage has been so damaging to me but I still love her and we've had some amazing times together. I don't have anything to lose by giving this an honest try.

As always, thanks so much for your insight.

[ct21218]

Yikes at telling her what your therapist said.  Nothing good was going to come from that.  Do you talk to her often about your individual sessions?  I would probably not recommend that and would keep your sessions between you and your therapist, your wife might feel ganged up on by the 2 of you and it creates a triangle where she's the victim and the therapist is the persecutor.  Go into couples counseling with an open mind and I would talk more about how you feel rather than your wife does x. 

[Radcliff]

One thing that can sometimes help with patience and commitment is to shift from thinking of our pwBPD as a "bad actor" who's willingly traumatizing us, to thinking of them as someone with a relationship disability who's in a lot of pain and whose efforts to respond to their pain are sadly counterproductive and hurtful to those around them.  This may help things feel less personal at times, though I know that what is happening is very personal.  Does this shift sound potentially useful?

RC

[Stillhopeful4]

One thing that can sometimes help with patience and commitment is to shift from thinking of our pwBPD as a "bad actor" who's willingly traumatizing us, to thinking of them as someone with a relationship disability who's in a lot of pain and whose efforts to respond to their pain are sadly counterproductive and hurtful to those around them. 

RC,

This is GREAT advise.   Thank you (I just have to say I have learned so much on these boards and I'm thankful to all of you!)

SH4

[RBGE]

One thing that can sometimes help with patience and commitment is to shift from thinking of our pwBPD as a "bad actor" who's willingly traumatizing us, to thinking of them as someone with a relationship disability who's in a lot of pain and whose efforts to respond to their pain are sadly counterproductive and hurtful to those around them.  This may help things feel less personal at times, though I know that what is happening is very personal.  Does this shift sound potentially useful?

RC

This is very useful, Radcliff, and I have shifted my thinking in this direction because of your insight and what I've been reading in books and on these forums.

I should mention that she has softened since the 48-hour period immediately following our first MC session on Wednesday 9/11. She stopped the punishing behavior after I approached her with empathy, let her know I'm here for her and still love her while reminding her of my personal limits/boundaries.

[Troi]

Quite unfair and unprofessional for the MC to ask for the T’s assessment. The T, for anyone in any condition, should be a place of vulnerability and be respected. I am sorry you were put in that position!

[Radcliff]

That's fantastic that expressing empathy seems to be helping in the relationship.  You said you reminded her of your boundaries.  What were those?  How did you do it?

RC

[Birddog]

RBGE,

Found passing blame either for self, therapist, SO had low percentage of improving things, it was through deeper understanding where made improvements.

What are thoughts around second MC session now that dust has settled?

[RBGE]

Quite unfair and unprofessional for the MC to ask for the T’s assessment. The T, for anyone in any condition, should be a place of vulnerability and be respected. I am sorry you were put in that position!

I agree! But I also believe counselors are humans like the rest of us and are allowed to make mistakes, which is why I didn't write her off.

[RBGE]

That's fantastic that expressing empathy seems to be helping in the relationship.  You said you reminded her of your boundaries.  What were those?  How did you do it?

RC

I told her I would not tolerate any more threats of divorce. Have I tolerated those anyway since then? Yeah, but hey, please cut me some slack. This is a clumsy learning process for me with lots of bloopers as it plays out.

[Radcliff]

I told her I would not tolerate any more threats of divorce. Have I tolerated those anyway since then? Yeah, but hey, please cut me some slack. This is a clumsy learning process for me with lots of bloopers as it plays out.

Of course!  We are all quite familiar with clumsiness and bloopers!  Breakup threats are a tough one.  They cause a lot of damage to us, yet we can't control someone else's behaviors.  How have things been going between you the last few days?  When is the next MC session?

RC

[RBGE]

Hey guys and girls, just wanted to post a quick update after our second MC session late night. Highlights:

MC asked what I want out of this marriage to be happy. I replied that I want to be comfortable being myself and not be afraid of unintentionally triggering wife and making her upset with my words or actions. Then I added, "In other words, I want to not feel like I'm walking on eggshells [Yes, I was sending a coded signal to MC  ]."

Wife told MC she wants me to stop seeing my individual T because my T is harming our marriage. MC asked me what I think about stopping seeing my T if it would make my wife feel more secure. I responded that my answer is a "firm" no.

Wife starting crying and said, "See? He never picks me first." Then it was almost as if a magic switch flipped and MC suddenly realized what was going on. For lack of better words, MC spent the rest of the session explaining common sense to wife, albeit with compassion and kindness of course. I felt so validated! I just sat back and let wife reveal herself and MC took it from there. It was amazing.

From the second we left MC's office I tried to be as sweet and kind as possible to wife, holding doors open for her, waiting on her hand and foot, making her a home-cooked meal and serving it to her, making her lunch for work the next day and asking her if she was OK. It was all to no effect and the punishment continues over 24 hours later.

Thank you all for your continued support and I very much enjoy reading your posts as a lurker and learning from them. It is amazing to find out there are so many people with similar experiences. I'll post another update in a week or two.

[Stillhopeful4]

I felt so validated!

RBGE,

I'm glad to hear your second session with the MC went well.  Feeling validated is a great thing.  It was really nice of you to hold the door and make her dinner etc.  I'm sorry she's punishing you.  Try and take some time and do something nice for yourself while she processes what happened yesterday.  Please keep us updated in between as to how things are going.  Best of luck to you.

SH4

[ct21218]

I think you made the right call by not reaching out to your mc on your own to give her a head's up.  A good therapist will pick up an individual's dysfunction pretty quickly and your wife showed her unreasonableness with her them vs. me reaction.  There's no downside to you having your own therapist to work out your own issues, but your wife sees your therapist as the enemy. 

[GaGrl]

This is why your willingness to do IF with your wife will be so valuable. Just as your wife will reveal herself to the MC, you also will be able to sit back and look at her behaviors with a t current perspective than when you are alone with your wife and "in the middle of it." This increased insight will help you move forward, whatever you decide is the best path.

[Radcliff]

That's excellent that the MC gets it.  Great work understanding how difficult this is for your wife and treating her with compassion and patience. 

What kinds of things make your wife feel like you're there for her?  Sometimes the ways to show support and love that come easiest for us are not the ones that have the biggest impact on our partners.  Do you have any thoughts on what ways work best for her?

RC

[RBGE]

Wife still won't let go of insisting I stop seeing my T. She told MC yesterday she might have to divorce me if I don't drop my T. Last night, wife listed off a couple of our mutual friends and told me they can't believe I'm unwilling to stop seeing my T. Wife said her parents want to talk to me because they can't believe I'm unwilling to stop seeing my T. Wife frames it like I'm picking my T over her.

My answer is still a firm no. My T has helped me a ton and changed my life. She's an important part of my support system and it's hard to find a T who you click with. I'm not f___ing my T (as wife accused me of). She's just a mental health professional who I see for an hour a week. I've truly decided in my heart that it is acceptable to me if wife really divorces me over this even though she probably won't.

What's more important is that I feel really upset and disrespected that wife won't respect my decision or take no for an answer. Then again, I should have known by now not to take a borderline's words personally.

[RBGE]

What kinds of things make your wife feel like you're there for her? 
RC

There is no consistent answer to this. It all depends on the state of her emotions on any given day. As I'm sure you're aware, sometimes there is no possible way to make a borderline feel like you're there for them. That's an important lesson I've learned from devouring multiple books and reading these boards.

[Birddog]

. Last night, wife listed off a couple of our mutual friends and told me they can't believe I'm unwilling to stop seeing my T. Wife said her parents want to talk to me because they can't believe I'm unwilling to stop seeing my T. Wife frames it like I'm picking my T over her.

This looks like a vilification/distortion campaign.  I’ve been through them, some I found out about years later. Don’t have answer here. My strategy was to stay strong, not waver, some did their damage, others people were able to see through.  My behaviors and attitudes were within my control, my SO doing this was out of my control. What she was doing, I did not like, and did my best to cope.

My Concern is if your SO presses every boundary, and tries to isolate you, and you loose your sense of self. There is give or take in a relationship, but should have some balance.

[Radcliff]

I agree with Birddog that it's important to stay strong on the issue of maintaining your individual therapist.  She's clearly helping you.  You sound confident in your decision, which is very helpful.  When we're confident in our position, we can actually maintain it with less defensiveness and conflict than if we feel more threatened.

The tactic of telling you that everyone agrees with her sounds very familiar.  It can cause us to feel pressure, shame, confusion and all sorts of other unhelpful things.  Some of her support may be totally imaginary, or she may have aligned people against you.  If she says ten people think she's right, she may have two sympathetic supporters she's co-opted and has inflated the number by eight.  It sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on this, but it's something that many members face, so it's worth talking about.  Keep in mind that while this behavior can feel disorienting and threatening to us, it arises from the fact that our pwBPD feel threatened and not secure.  We want to try to act in ways that don't make them feel more threatened.

Did you have another MC appointment last night?  If so, how did it go?

RC

[RBGE]

Hey there, just wanted to give an update on MC with my uBPDw for anyone interested. I have found that all it takes for a MC to realize the truth of what's going on is to sit back and let your BPD partner talk. It takes little to no work on the non-BPD's part.

We had our 5th or 6th session last night. MC told my wife she sensed wife didn't want to be there. MC told wife it was her choice to be there or not but she hoped wife would be a "return customer."

Wife talked about how hard it has been to deal with the changes in me since I started getting individual T a year ago. Wife restated her belief that I've had an "emotional affair" with my T. MC explained to wife that this is not the case at all and I have only been getting T to take care of myself, not to have an affair.

Wife told MC, "Maybe we are not meant to be together." MC explained to wife that it is unproductive and hurtful to threaten the marriage. Wife told me during the ride home about how wrong and unfair the MC was to her.

I still have both feet in when it comes to this process but I can honestly say I'm at peace with the possibility of divorce, even if it is not my first choice. Does that make sense? I'm just saying I'm not afraid of it because I'm in a good place emotionally and mentally.

[Birddog]

RBGE,

My MC sessions were very similar. It took some time to sink in with spouse. My SO had heavy blinders on with who I was and what the relationship was about, really took a pro to at least seed the thought that her worldview was a projection, and I didn’t have to do any work in session, just sit back. I fealt really grateful spouse made it in to sessions, because for once she was being held accountable in the relationship for bad behavior.

The after sessions felt were in some ways just as important as the actual sessions, think had same conversation with my SO at some level or in other similar veins,

Hopefully your MC being direct about use of the D word as being unproductive will help. Trouble with  using the D word is the other partner may start taking it seriously. 

Where your spouse is right now, it may easier for her to feel you are having an emotional affair for her idealized viewpoint of you. That will take time for her to reconcile that if it’s even possible that is not true. She sounds like she has put quite a bit of energy trying to support that feeling.

Just my take.

[Radcliff]

Thanks for the update.  It totally makes sense that you're at peace with the possibility of divorce.  When we're scared to do anything that might risk the relationship or increase our SO's threats against the relationship, we get stuck.  Having both feet in on Bettering things while being at peace if things don't work out may be the most productive place to be.  We're essentially accepting the fact that we can't control our SO -- if they choose to leave, we can't stop them.

How have things gone with your wife after the session?  What changes in you have given her difficulty?

RC

[RBGE]

How have things gone with your wife after the session?  What changes in you have given her difficulty?

Things have been alright, I guess. No crying meltdowns since our last session on Wednesday. I feel awful about the fact that I haven't been attracted to her in years. I have no desire for physical intimacy with her and I don't know why. I constantly worry about what will happen the next time she asks for it. Hopefully we'll address this in MC, but the bottom line is that she's being robbed of a basic need any spouse has. I have no valid excuse or response when she complains about it.

As far as changes in me, I was basically her emotional caretaker up to a year or so ago. Then I stopped because I just couldn't do it anymore. I would become worried sick every time she was upset or crying and do everything I could to fix it, but I can't anymore because I was dying inside. I started taking care of myself instead. She says I am not the person she married and she's right. 

I'm reading "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad for the second time in a row. I'd love to meet the author and thank her someday.

[Radcliff]

It is not uncommon for members to pull away in an attempt to protect themselves.  It can be difficult to feel safe enough to continue to give. 

Have you considered trying more limited forms of intimacy to start, such as cuddling, backrubs, or footrubs?  Taking sex off the table for a bit can lessen the pressure and make it easier to work on intimacy.

She needs to feel attractive.  Are there times when she's wearing something nice, when you see her from a certain angle, when you can honestly say she looks attractive?  Not that you want to have sex at that moment, just that objectively, she's attractive to you?  Find any opportunities you can to give her compliments.  Hmm... if you compliment her, does she believe you?

RC