Out of sight, Out of mind?

[Larmoyant]

I’ve read that ‘out of sight is out of mind’ for someone with BPD. What does this mean? If this is true then why do they keep coming back?

[HarleypsychRN]

Great question... I believe the whole "out of sight, out of mind" thing has to do with their lack of object constancy. Why they come back (IMHO) can range from coming back to survey the damage (I call it coming back to check on the body) to loneliness, to their emotional dysregulation, or as an exercise of power.

Trying to understand their behaviors may give you some measure of closure (closure you will never get from them btw... .) but at the end of they day, these people are incredibly damaged... that is the explanation that sufficed for me.

"The calendar changes, they don't"- Unknown

[JQ]

Hi Larmoyant 

Please remember Larmoyant, that no 2 people are the same and that is even more so for someone with BPD. Harley has a good point, trying to understand the "behavior" itself is what you seek because closure of any type from a BPD will not happen. 

As Harley points out, it could be for any number of a 1/2 dozen reasons why they do what they do but to narrow it down to a single cause is very difficult because they are so broken.  I equate someone who has the Serious Cluster B Mental Illness of BPD with Humpty Dumpty.  They fall off the wall and all the kings men and all the kinds horses couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again.  The best anyone could expect if they CHOSE to stay with a BPD is a LIMITED management of the symptoms.

Do NOT try to apply logic to someone who has BPD or the relationship itself. This is a futile exercise as you've come to experience and will only lead to your frustration and put obstacles on your path to recovery.

I believe the quote that Harley puts at the end of the post is very telling ... ."The calendar changes, they don't".  My first exBPDgf from 22 plus years ago is proof of that one as she still continues to try to reengage me and I feel like Neo in the first Matrix movie dodging the bullets in slow motion.     

Keep your sense of humor Larmoyant!  It will serve you well 

J

[once removed]

hi larmoyant  

"out of sight out of mind" has to do with object permanence. its a sense that we develop at a very early stage that, for example, just because our primary caregivers leave the room, does not mean they will not return or that we have been abandoned. we learn, through consistent, nurturing, attentive care giving, to soothe ourselves with a visual representation of our loved ones.

people with BPD have great difficulty in conjuring those representations (object permanence). it often results in feelings of emptiness, due to physical absence of an attachment.

did your partner ever ask to borrow an article of clothing, or a stuffed animal, or some memorabilia of yours that represented you? that might be a clue.

i wouldnt take it completely literally. surely we were all away from our exes for some period of time, and did not cease to exist. ill give you some examples though: some nights i would get a call from her. shed be feeling deeply lonely and alone. there was nothing in the world i could say (i tried) to make her feel the slightest bit better. in fact i wonder if it didnt make her feel worse that she couldnt soothe the internal loneliness. most times when we would hang up i could tell she was crying. it was really sad. rages usually came by text. shed rage and then see me in person and apologize profusely, or shed say things like mentioning shed forgotten about the qualities she loved about me, and proceed to idealize me. its all about a struggle to maintain a consistent image of you.

object constancy is similarly developed at an early stage, and is the ability to view a person with a full past and present context, as well as with both flaws and loveable qualities; to see a person with relative consistency over time. there were probably many examples in your relationship where a lack of object constancy played a role.

i tend to believe that the lack of object permanence and object constancy play a role in both why our exes appear to move on so quickly, and why they reach out to us post relationship.

[fromheeltoheal]

I’ve read that ‘out of sight is out of mind’ for someone with BPD. What does this mean? If this is true then why do they keep coming back?

Expressions are interesting.  "Out of sight, out of mind" is a common one, as is "absence makes the heart grow fonder", two apparently contradictory sentiments, for each of us to figure out and apply as needed, although for borderlines, absence makes the heart grow colder.  Others have explained that it's due to a lack of object constancy, which is really a handicap when you think about it, someone with that mental deficiency literally cannot conjure up the feelings about someone when they're not physically there.  That would suck, and goes a long way to explaining why borderlines are so text-happy, among other things; it's an attempt to retain an attachment they can't feel at the time.

And then, once the relationship ends, a borderline still has a need for external help soothing their emotions, since they can't do it themselves, and an ex may pop up on the radar as someone who might be able to help soothe, someone for which an attachment is still in place.  And if the ex gives any indication that they are still emotionally involved on any level, the borderline is soothed in the moment, situation handled.  Think about someone who's lying on the ground, in pain and bleeding: they will call out for help and accept anyone's, it doesn't matter who, they just need help.  And then add the core of the disorder, a need to attach psychically to 'complete' themselves, their 'self', and the motivation becomes clear.  Easy to walk away from, unless we're emotionally involved ourselves and our core issues are triggered, and we don't know what the hell is going on and expect our partner to be "normal".  That's the good news really though: now that we've been triggered and had a spotlight shined on our core issues, maybe for the first time ever, even though it somehow might feel like our childhood, then we can thank the borderline for that priceless information and set about healing and growing, on the way to creating the life of our dreams.

[GreenEyedMonster]

Please take note that "object permanence" and "object constancy" are two different things.  Object permanence refers to the ability to remember that something still exists when it is out of your view.  Playing peek-a-boo with an infant is amusing because infants lack object permanence, and they giggle because you are alternately causing something to cease to exist and to come back into existence.

Object constancy has to do more with remembering the traits of an object.  (The word "object" in psychology has a different meaning than in daily conversation; it does not mean they view you like a thing.)  It means that in your absence, the person has a hard time remembering what your personality is, what your feelings toward them are, etc.

My breakup with my exBPD was worsened by the object constancy issue.  He was on vacation in another state when it happened.  He was unable to see my actions (calling him repeatedly) in the context of my larger personality.  Rather, he invented a whole new person in his mind, a crazy psycho stalker, who essentially replaced who he thought I was before.  This caused him to instantly fall out of love with me, because the person he imagined me to be did not exist.

This means that being apart causes an individual with BPD to question the relationship -- or the breakup -- because who you are in their mind's eye is prone to changing in your absence.  Ironically, I had noticed this trait in my ex long before the fight that broke us up, and I was worried about his week-long trip away from me because I knew it was an opportunity for him to reimagine me negatively and bond with a new group of friends.

[SoMadSoSad]

Is out of sight out of mind a definite trait for all BPD? So if they can forget why they love you can they also forget why they hate you?

[GreenEyedMonster]

Is out of sight out of mind a definite trait for all BPD? So if they can forget why they love you can they also forget why they hate you?

I don't know if it's a definite trait for all pwBPD.  But yes, it does mean they can forget why they hate you as well.  Hence the tendency toward recycling.

[Bushido]

Is out of sight out of mind a definite trait for all BPD? So if they can forget why they love you can they also forget why they hate you?

I don't know if it's a definite trait for all pwBPD.  But yes, it does mean they can forget why they hate you as well.  Hence the tendency toward recycling.

interesting...   very!

[steelwork]

This means that being apart causes an individual with BPD to question the relationship -- or the breakup -- because who you are in their mind's eye is prone to changing in your absence.  Ironically, I had noticed this trait in my ex long before the fight that broke us up, and I was worried about his week-long trip away from me because I knew it was an opportunity for him to reimagine me negatively and bond with a new group of friends.

100% this ^^^

He used to often say how he could not keep the feeling of happiness he got from being with me after I left. Fear, dread, unhappiness would creep in. He used it to his advantage after he dumped me--refusing to be in my presence or talk on the phone so he could maintain the image of me that was helping him move on.

Why do I continue to question whether he had BPD traits? There were so many signs. So many.

[Nuitari]

This means that being apart causes an individual with BPD to question the relationship -- or the breakup -- because who you are in their mind's eye is prone to changing in your absence.  Ironically, I had noticed this trait in my ex long before the fight that broke us up, and I was worried about his week-long trip away from me because I knew it was an opportunity for him to reimagine me negatively and bond with a new group of friends.

I 100% agree with this too. I've seen it first hand. In my case, I was a replacement for my ex's husband while he was away in another state for six months because of the military. She would tell me about how uncaring he was, how he didn't love her, never called her, etc. But she seemed to genuinely love me. She would go on and on about how she finally found in me the true love she never had, and how she wanted to be with me forever, etc. At the time, I think she believed everything she was saying. Anyway, the husband returned home, and things got really messy. I get the impression that they had a pretty good marriage up to that point, and he couldn't understand her sudden animosity and lack of feelings for him. He blamed me for turning his wife against him. Long story short, he convinces her not to leave him. And now, two years later, she's convinced that he loves her and genuinely cannot understand her attitude toward him when he was away.

[JQ]

hi larmoyant  

"out of sight out of mind" has to do with object permanence. its a sense that we develop at a very early stage that, for example, just because our primary caregivers leave the room, does not mean they will not return or that we have been abandoned. we learn, through consistent, nurturing, attentive care giving, to soothe ourselves with a visual representation of our loved ones.

people with BPD have great difficulty in conjuring those representations (object permanence). it often results in feelings of emptiness, due to physical absence of an attachment.

did your partner ever ask to borrow an article of clothing, or a stuffed animal, or some memorabilia of yours that represented you? that might be a clue.

i wouldnt take it completely literally. surely we were all away from our exes for some period of time, and did not cease to exist. ill give you some examples though: some nights i would get a call from her. shed be feeling deeply lonely and alone. there was nothing in the world i could say (i tried) to make her feel the slightest bit better. in fact i wonder if it didnt make her feel worse that she couldnt soothe the internal loneliness. most times when we would hang up i could tell she was crying. it was really sad. rages usually came by text. shed rage and then see me in person and apologize profusely, or shed say things like mentioning shed forgotten about the qualities she loved about me, and proceed to idealize me. its all about a struggle to maintain a consistent image of you.

object constancy is similarly developed at an early stage, and is the ability to view a person with a full past and present context, as well as with both flaws and loveable qualities; to see a person with relative consistency over time. there were probably many examples in your relationship where a lack of object constancy played a role.

i tend to believe that the lack of object permanence and object constancy play a role in both why our exes appear to move on so quickly, and why they reach out to us post relationship.

OnceRemoved makes a really great point here. My exBPDgf kept "trinkets" from pass lovers/ex-bf's/ex-husbands as reminders going back as far as 30 yrs. Over the coarse of those 30 years she had 2 husbands & numerous bf's, imagine my surprise when I happened upon them one day. She told me they were gifts and they remind me of people in my life.  We all have a history and so do I.  She could never come to remove them from  her life, it goes to the subject of this conversation. If they have a reminder of past lovers, then they're truly never really gone. I gave her more then a couple of trinkets myself and imagine current and future bf's stumbling onto them ... .hehehe 

J

[GreenEyedMonster]

This means that being apart causes an individual with BPD to question the relationship -- or the breakup -- because who you are in their mind's eye is prone to changing in your absence.  Ironically, I had noticed this trait in my ex long before the fight that broke us up, and I was worried about his week-long trip away from me because I knew it was an opportunity for him to reimagine me negatively and bond with a new group of friends.

100% this ^^^

He used to often say how he could not keep the feeling of happiness he got from being with me after I left. Fear, dread, unhappiness would creep in. He used it to his advantage after he dumped me--refusing to be in my presence or talk on the phone so he could maintain the image of me that was helping him move on.

Why do I continue to question whether he had BPD traits? There were so many signs. So many.

I have mentioned a few times on this board that my exBPD began regretting the breakup with his previous ex soon after he cut her off.  He did the same thing he did to me -- blocking her on Facebook, changing his phone number, etc. and accusing her of being a criminal trying to hurt him.  EXACT same behavior.  Then missed her.  He said that he INTENTIONALLY went back and read his journals from the relationship so that he could keep feeling like she was evil, because he started imagining her as good after he left.

The two hours he tried to recycle me, there was another girl who could have been the twin of his other ex.  I might have actually recycled with him that night if he hadn't spend the whole night gawking down the table at her!  It was pretty obvious that his hatred of her was difficult to maintain.  I'm actually pretty surprised that he hasn't painted me white yet.  But I am beyond caring.

[Dhand77]

hi larmoyant  

"out of sight out of mind" has to do with object permanence. its a sense that we develop at a very early stage that, for example, just because our primary caregivers leave the room, does not mean they will not return or that we have been abandoned. we learn, through consistent, nurturing, attentive care giving, to soothe ourselves with a visual representation of our loved ones.

people with BPD have great difficulty in conjuring those representations (object permanence). it often results in feelings of emptiness, due to physical absence of an attachment.

did your partner ever ask to borrow an article of clothing, or a stuffed animal, or some memorabilia of yours that represented you? that might be a clue.

i wouldnt take it completely literally. surely we were all away from our exes for some period of time, and did not cease to exist. ill give you some examples though: some nights i would get a call from her. shed be feeling deeply lonely and alone. there was nothing in the world i could say (i tried) to make her feel the slightest bit better. in fact i wonder if it didnt make her feel worse that she couldnt soothe the internal loneliness. most times when we would hang up i could tell she was crying. it was really sad. rages usually came by text. shed rage and then see me in person and apologize profusely, or shed say things like mentioning shed forgotten about the qualities she loved about me, and proceed to idealize me. its all about a struggle to maintain a consistent image of you.

object constancy is similarly developed at an early stage, and is the ability to view a person with a full past and present context, as well as with both flaws and loveable qualities; to see a person with relative consistency over time. there were probably many examples in your relationship where a lack of object constancy played a role.

i tend to believe that the lack of object permanence and object constancy play a role in both why our exes appear to move on so quickly, and why they reach out to us post relationship.

Whoa. My BPDexgf, swiped a pair of my pajama pants about a month before she discarded me. Was this like a trophy for her? Or some kinda of way to hold on to something that was once mine? She also withheld a handful of books of mine, when I asked for them back. I assumed she kept a few to have a way to contact me a few months or years or whatever, but it feels like she might have kept those things to keep a "part of me around"?

I'm such a creature of logic, and dealing with a BPDex just makes me constantly scratch my head. Sheesh.

[once removed]

Whoa. My BPDexgf, swiped a pair of my pajama pants about a month before she discarded me. Was this like a trophy for her? Or some kinda of way to hold on to something that was once mine? She also withheld a handful of books of mine, when I asked for them back. I assumed she kept a few to have a way to contact me a few months or years or whatever, but it feels like she might have kept those things to keep a "part of me around"?

I'm such a creature of logic, and dealing with a BPDex just makes me constantly scratch my head. Sheesh.

sometimes it is a means to reengage (that may not be the conscious intent, but it sometimes is the result). sometimes the difficulty/inability to return/exchange stuff is that it triggers the sense of abandonment.

i dont think its a trophy, no. keeping a part of you around is more likely. i think of it as a "representation". surely we have all done this on some level; ive always kept relationship momentos/memorabilia. not because i lack object permanence, but at its core, the stuff is still some representation of the person or the memories so its not like i cant relate at all.

my ex really liked getting teddy bears from me, and displaying them. seems normal enough, and it is on the surface, but even at the time i had a suspicion somewhere in the back of my mind that it was about something to replace/soothe my physical absence.

[SummerStorm]

My BPD friend borrowed two t-shirts and a soccer jersey from me, along with a book.  Well, the book she definitely borrowed.  The jersey she wore at work one day for "jersey day" and then said she was going to take it home to wash it for me and sew the bottom hem, which can come undone (she never did, by the way).  For months, I asked her to give it back, and she kept saying she "forgot."  The shirts she slept in when she stayed over at my house (we had a brief affair) and then took home with her, even though she could have just thrown them in my washing machine.  The jersey was a women's soccer jersey, and the shirts were women's basketball shirts.  Two things she has zero interest in.  But they were mine, they were things I liked, and she wore them when she was with me.  

She finally mailed them back to me a month after she discarded me the first time, when she was packing to move across the country with her boyfriend.  A few weeks later, she called off the move and broke up with her boyfriend.  

I never got the book back, and who knows if she even still has it?  She has personal belongings scattered all over the place.  Family friends have a bunch of her stuff, her former roommate has some of her stuff, her mom still has some of her stuff.  I gave her cards, drew her pictures, and wrote her letters.  It's hard to tell if she kept any of them.  I doubt it.  

[Dhand77]

Whoa. My BPDexgf, swiped a pair of my pajama pants about a month before she discarded me. Was this like a trophy for her? Or some kinda of way to hold on to something that was once mine? She also withheld a handful of books of mine, when I asked for them back. I assumed she kept a few to have a way to contact me a few months or years or whatever, but it feels like she might have kept those things to keep a "part of me around"?

I'm such a creature of logic, and dealing with a BPDex just makes me constantly scratch my head. Sheesh.

sometimes it is a means to reengage (that may not be the conscious intent, but it sometimes is the result). sometimes the difficulty/inability to return/exchange stuff is that it triggers the sense of abandonment.

i dont think its a trophy, no. keeping a part of you around is more likely. i think of it as a "representation". surely we have all done this on some level; ive always kept relationship momentos/memorabilia. not because i lack object permanence, but at its core, the stuff is still some representation of the person or the memories so its not like i cant relate at all.

my ex really liked getting teddy bears from me, and displaying them. seems normal enough, and it is on the surface, but even at the time i had a suspicion somewhere in the back of my mind that it was about something to replace/soothe my physical absence.

Thanks for the reply! I never picked up on her obsession with obtaining a pair of my PJ pants during the last few months. The books boggled my mind. I vividly remember the bookshelf she had, all MY books were together on a shelf. When I went through the bag, I knew EXACTLY what things she withheld from returning. I knew instantly that they would be used as a means to contact me on a later date. Unfortunately for her, , I already replaced them.

I'm not a "keep things around" kind of guy. Since I'm an artist, and she would mirror me. I got rid of all her "drawings" that she would trace (really weird). Any trinkets or gifts also got ditched. I felt like those things just stunted the healing process. BPD is almost fascinating to a degree. In my 38 years, I always had relatively healthy break ups. Still maintain contact with almost all my exes on some level. This one threw away four years at the drop of a hat and turned into a completely different person. BPD truly defies logic. But thanks to this site and educating myself on this disorder, I almost feel 3 steps ahead of her when it comes to what she'll do. I've been able to predict her actions at almost every turn, and it's all thanks to these boards.

[HarleypsychRN]

Mine did the exact opposite,,she threw all her sexy lingerie away on her way out (in the kitchen garbage can where I could see it of course)... .perhaps in an attempt to "purge" herself of our relationship. I held onto it for a few weeks and then was I was ready I discarded it. Trying to make sense of their actions can be interesting and I guess even fascinating. I treated her really well but you can't fill a black hole no matter how you try.

"The calendar changes, they don't"- Unknown

[GreenEyedMonster]

hi larmoyant  

"out of sight out of mind" has to do with object permanence. its a sense that we develop at a very early stage that, for example, just because our primary caregivers leave the room, does not mean they will not return or that we have been abandoned. we learn, through consistent, nurturing, attentive care giving, to soothe ourselves with a visual representation of our loved ones.

people with BPD have great difficulty in conjuring those representations (object permanence). it often results in feelings of emptiness, due to physical absence of an attachment.

did your partner ever ask to borrow an article of clothing, or a stuffed animal, or some memorabilia of yours that represented you? that might be a clue.

i wouldnt take it completely literally. surely we were all away from our exes for some period of time, and did not cease to exist. ill give you some examples though: some nights i would get a call from her. shed be feeling deeply lonely and alone. there was nothing in the world i could say (i tried) to make her feel the slightest bit better. in fact i wonder if it didnt make her feel worse that she couldnt soothe the internal loneliness. most times when we would hang up i could tell she was crying. it was really sad. rages usually came by text. shed rage and then see me in person and apologize profusely, or shed say things like mentioning shed forgotten about the qualities she loved about me, and proceed to idealize me. its all about a struggle to maintain a consistent image of you.

object constancy is similarly developed at an early stage, and is the ability to view a person with a full past and present context, as well as with both flaws and loveable qualities; to see a person with relative consistency over time. there were probably many examples in your relationship where a lack of object constancy played a role.

i tend to believe that the lack of object permanence and object constancy play a role in both why our exes appear to move on so quickly, and why they reach out to us post relationship.

Whoa. My BPDexgf, swiped a pair of my pajama pants about a month before she discarded me. Was this like a trophy for her? Or some kinda of way to hold on to something that was once mine? She also withheld a handful of books of mine, when I asked for them back. I assumed she kept a few to have a way to contact me a few months or years or whatever, but it feels like she might have kept those things to keep a "part of me around"?

I'm such a creature of logic, and dealing with a BPDex just makes me constantly scratch my head. Sheesh.

It's possible.  My exBPD left me with one of his very valuable possessions and initially kept one of mine, but it ended up having no significance.  You can't necessarily read into everything.

When someone keeps something as a memento, however, that's called a "transitional object."

[steelwork]

And by the way, Once Removed--as I'm sure you know, a teddy bear is the classic example of a transitional object in early childhood (transitioning from union with caregiver).

[MapleBob]

My uBPDex seems to be banking on "out of sight = out of mind". 

[once removed]

And by the way, Once Removed--as I'm sure you know, a teddy bear is the classic example of a transitional object in early childhood (transitioning from union with caregiver).

actually i hadnt really made that connection. thanks steelwork!

[JerryRG]

My ex still has some of my things, she would drag out our first engagement ring and wear it when she went out in public, she would hold my things hostage when she got upset, my camera was left in her apartment and I asked for it, her response? I will leave it outside the entryway for you. Oh? And no one would steal it before I got there and you could pawn it off? Shrewd sickness

I'm on a hate rant tonight , not sure it's helpful or harming my recovery

[sweet tooth]

did your partner ever ask to borrow an article of clothing, or a stuffed animal, or some memorabilia of yours that represented you? that might be a clue.

Yes. My ex asked to borrow a book from me. After the discard I never got it back. She said to me, "do not contact me again." I said goodbye, but didn't ask for the book back. It makes me wonder if she will use it as leverage or a possible recycle excuse down the road... .

[sweet tooth]

She also has some stuff I gave her: a hoodie, a cartoon I made for her, and a photo album. I don't want any of those things back. They were gifts and I want her to keep them. I would like my book back, though. It's one of my favorites and out of print.

I get monitored online and she has my book. I'm convinced the re-engagement is a matter of time, even though she told me not to contact her again... .