Long road to get here… married 22yrs

[Rocky-Trail]

It seems my journey here might be a little longer than most, but here I am. I started dating my wife when we were both teenagers. We married in our young 20s.  We are both highly educated with postgraduate degrees. We both grew up in conservative Christian homes with parents whose marriages aren’t perfect, but they’re committed to each other and still married to this day. We’re now in our mid 40s with a life that looks successful from the outside, but is absolutely miserable, and I know it’s just a shell of the life I once dared to dream of.

I am not looking for a way out, I am looking for the best way forward. I love my wife even though she has been the greatest source of pain in my life. I am on a journey of finally learning what it seems like is actually at the core of our conflict and problems. I hope to figure out how to create whatever level of safety and relationship I can give her, while also finding ways to keep myself healthy. In addition to that we have 5 sons together ages 5-16 that I am trying to protect from the worst of this disorder, while also not demonizing their mother.

I saw the first of the “I hate you, I love you” cycle while dating. But I’m a hopelessly positive guy and a dreamer. So I was always able to enjoy the best of the relationship and quickly put the hurts behind me. Being a Christian with a strong ethic of quick forgiveness, keeping no record of wrongs and giving sacrificial love set me up to be a great fit for her needs.

The raging temper tantrums started year one over how much I was working and not paying attention to her. I chalked this up to different family expectations about work and the fact that during our college days I had focused almost all of my attention and energy to her and our relationship, so she wasn’t used to me having other things to spend my time and energy on. I remember it feeling like she had a really childish view of “adult” life in the real world, and the temper tantrums were so childish I had no idea what to do with them. Oh how I wish somehow I would have had the maturity then to not be scared and ashamed of what was happening and seek outside help until we found it. But I didn’t. I told no one, and put it all on myself to be the perfect husband so she would love me; while also trying to logically convince her that there were other ways to see things than what she was feeling. What a waste!

Over the last 20 years I have been idolized and discarded more times than I can remember, and along the way I became unhealthy in lots of ways myself. About 4 years in to the marriage she did go to counseling for some grief issues and at ~5 years we went to couples counseling (because I started hiding anything from her that would come across as me not being perfect in my own very broken personal attempt to stop being discarded) but as soon as we worked on my issue and the counselor turned to her issues she went off on him and left. She has left so many counselors over the years. She can never admit that she has ever done anything wrong. It’s truly wild the hoops she will jump though mentally. We’ve been to many counselors together, she’s had many others on her own, but she eventually leaves them all because she can’t face any challenge. Eventually all of them come to me at a loss as to how to help her and try to help me take some kind of caretaking role. Many have mentioned cognitive distortions, and broken emotional development, but the latest one is the first to come out and tell me she has borderline personality disorder. He had me secretly read the “Stop walking on eggshells” book. For me, it was like a light in the dark. Our relationship has never made any sense before, and here’s a book describing my life.

I am currently in a deep, year long discard. It feels like she’s truly done with me forever. She has projected all of our problems on to me and now refers to me as a narcissistic cult leader. As of our last session with the therapist we’ve been going together, she’s now done with him too, because he dared to ask her what her responsibility was in our problems.

About a month ago at the suggestion of our counselor I presented her with a list of non-negotiable changes needed, or I was going to separate. In just two weeks I thought she was going to waste away and die. She lost 7lbs in just those two weeks (she only weighs ~105 to start with). She didn’t sleep or eat and was constantly shaky. The physical anxiety was palpable. However, she is so convinced at the moment that I am 100% evil, that she couldn’t bring herself to agree to any changes, I gave in and told her I wouldn't separate from her because I couldn’t watch her self destruct like that.

I’d love to believe that someday she would somehow be able to face her problem and get help for it, but I don’t really expect her to be able to do that. So now I’m on my own journey of getting healthy while not actively separating from her; both for her own sake and the sake of our kids.

Any help on how to navigate this is appreciated. Resources, Ideas, etc.

So much more, but thats probably enough for an intro. Much love to you all. Thanks for being a place to find some help.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[M604V]

I had parents that stayed together for the kids too. Fast forward to my mid 20s when they divorced. Despite the fact that I was grown and on my own I was still deeply hurt by the divorce. I looked back and realized that I was robbed of a lot of my childhood, at least the kind of childhood that included happy parents. A dad that didn’t rage and bark and holler and pull out the belt. A mother who smiled, who had fun, who actually participated and showed even the tiniest degree of excitement about her life or ours. We didn’t get any of that, my siblings and I.

What’s the saying? I’d rather be FROM a broken home than IN one? Something like that?

[Pook075]

Hey Rocky, that was beautifully said.  Welcome to the forums and I am so sorry that you're going through this.  My marriage lasted just under 24 years before we separated, and its been a little over a year for me as well.  The path getting here was different for us but the ending was unfortunately the same.

The best advice I can give is study this site as much as possible, starting with the tips and tools along the top of the page.  At first, some of it won't feel like it relates to your journey...but it absolutely does.  If you want to save your marriage, it starts with better communication and techniques to de-escalate difficult situations.  Most of these techniques don't feel natural and require a good bit of practice, and none of us will ever get them 100% right all of the time.  We are human after all and each of us has our limits.

Please feel free to ask questions, rant away, or anything else you need to share.  Everyone is here to help and we've all been in this situation as well- it's certainly no fun at all.  But there is light at the end of the tunnel regardless how your marriage turns out.

For now, try to focus more on yourself and your kids, because you've been through trauma and the #1 goal should be to heal from it.  That means finding the real you once again, and there's no timelines for that.  In my case, it was about 6 or 7 months before my eyes were fully opened and I found true happiness once again.  Your journey may be similar or completely different, it's unique for everyone.  I do wish you luck though and we'll be here if you have any specific questions for the community.
 

[Rocky-Trail]

I was robbed of a lot of my childhood, at least the kind of childhood that included happy parents. A dad that didn’t rage and bark and holler and pull out the belt. A mother who smiled, who had fun, who actually participated and showed even the tiniest degree of excitement about her life or ours. We didn’t get any of that, my siblings and I.

What’s the saying? I’d rather be FROM a broken home than IN one? Something like that?

I hear you. That makes me sad and I certainly don’t want my boys saying that they were robbed of their childhood. That their dad was never happy and that their mom was raging on them and their dad far too often. They’ve definitely seen more than their fare share of fighting.

For now the question will be how healthy of a home can I make? Can I be ok in a relationship where I can’t count on any of my needs being safely met by my wife, and living in the regular upheaval she brings? I’ve done ok for significant periods of time in the past… now maybe I can do even better with more knowledge.

[Rocky-Trail]

.For now, try to focus more on yourself and your kids, because you've been through trauma and the #1 goal should be to heal from it.  That means finding the real you once again, and there's no timelines for that.  In my case, it was about 6 or 7 months before my eyes were fully opened and I found true happiness once again.  Your journey may be similar or completely different, it's unique for everyone.  I do wish you luck though and we'll be here if you have any specific questions for the community.

This is where I am at. For me there’s a lot of grief involved in admitting that this is where I am. I’m sad to give up the vision of us both happy in marriage as I used to dream of it.

But I absolutely have to find the real me again. And I look forward to the possibility of focusing more of myself on my boys and other healthy pursuits. All the time and effort for this marriage hasn’t given much in the way of positive change. (Actually at the moment it’s giving me nothing).

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

[Pook075]

This is where I am at. For me there’s a lot of grief involved in admitting that this is where I am. I’m sad to give up the vision of us both happy in marriage as I used to dream of it.

But I absolutely have to find the real me again. And I look forward to the possibility of focusing more of myself on my boys and other healthy pursuits. All the time and effort for this marriage hasn’t given much in the way of positive change. (Actually at the moment it’s giving me nothing).

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

My kids are in their early 20's so it's not the same as your situation, but they were both devastated when we separated.  I was naturally sad and heartbroken, and I was unable to properly communicate like a dad should because I was so filled with grief.  In time though, I found myself and I found happiness.  That's all the kids really wanted for me, they cared more about their dad being okay than anything.

You posted in the "reversing" section of this website so the advice given should be geared towards saving your marriage.  I believe that is a genuine possibility for any of us to turn things around through stronger communication and reaffirming our love and support.  That takes patience and forgiveness and so many other things because it has to be you to make the real effort...at least at first.  And to do that, you need to be the best possible version of you, if that makes sense.  Be the guy she fell in love with, the guy who was full of hopes and dreams and love of life.

You're not that guy right now because...well, it's obvious.  Trauma.  Heartbreak.  All the stuff that comes along with being a BPD spouse.  But I guarantee you that your wife is waiting for that guy to "save her" and reassure her that there's a light at the end of the tunnel.  Her bad behavior comes from fear that you'll abandon her and that you don't love her.  This isn't a typical two-way relationship that you always get what you receive, sometimes you have to be the one with more compassion and understanding.  It is possible to work past the bickering and constant nagging with positive reinforcement that you actually love her and will always be there for her.

I wish you all the luck in the world, my friend.  Again, ask any questions that come to mind or just pop in for a bit of support.

[Rocky-Trail]

You posted in the "reversing" section of this website so the advice given should be geared towards saving your marriage.  I believe that is a genuine possibility for any of us to turn things around through stronger communication and reaffirming our love and support.  That takes patience and forgiveness and so many other things because it has to be you to make the real effort...at least at first.  And to do that, you need to be the best possible version of you, if that makes sense.  Be the guy she fell in love with, the guy who was full of hopes and dreams and love of life.

You're not that guy right now because...well, it's obvious.  Trauma.  Heartbreak.  All the stuff that comes along with being a BPD spouse.  But I guarantee you that your wife is waiting for that guy to "save her" and reassure her that there's a light at the end of the tunnel.  Her bad behavior comes from fear that you'll abandon her and that you don't love her.  This isn't a typical two-way relationship that you always get what you receive, sometimes you have to be the one with more compassion and understanding.  It is possible to work past the bickering and constant nagging with positive reinforcement that you actually love her and will always be there for her.

It's funny. Right now it requires me taking a much longer view to see the fear of abandonment. Our counselor said he still sees the abandonment fear. I can absolutely see it easily in the past. Presently what I see is her fear of engulfment - completely losing herself - and also her adamant need to project 100% of her pain on to me. I have to be the bad guy so she's not.

I think one of my serious mistakes in the past was treating this relationship like a typical two-way give and take relationship, and trying to prove to her that what she was feeling (and then doing) wasn't normal. (it wasn't normal, but me trying to convince her of that was a huge misstep, even if it is understandable)

I've made my fair share of hurtful mistakes over the years. But I've also done all the of the repair work in the past with her never acknowledging, or taking any responsibility for the ways she hurts me. She would say, "It's not abusive for me to hit you, throw things at you, spit on you, mock you, call you names... because you deserve it, and also because I'm not able to actually injure you." She just moves on from hurtful rage to perfectly happy and normal with no accountability or attempted repair at all.

While I am not choosing to leave the relationship physically I see no way of becoming again the guy she fell in love with when I was a teenager/college student. That guy doesn't exist anymore. I have to create something new for myself that isn't some fantasy, but can exist in the actual relationship I'm in, with what is truly available to me. Sadly right now I can't see anyway that allows her to be a safe place for me. How would I ever trust her with my vulnerability? She uses every vulnerability I have as a power play against me whenever she's raging. There is no governor on the ways she is willing to hurt me when she is hurting. It feels right now like I have to build a life where I'm strong enough to not really need her, or be hurt by her attacks. I have no idea how she will respond to a stronger me who can attempt to give her what she needs out of care and love for her, but not really out of a vulnerable place of trying to build a mutually beneficial relationship together. Maybe she will respond better and life could actually be better when I don't feel the need to challenge her to be better to meet my needs. Maybe not. Impossible for me to know.

Are there any generally accepted plans of action or best practices when in a long discard where she only sees you as the source of all her pain?

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Rocky-

Welcome to the site.  I’m very sorry for the painful trauma in your marriage that brings you here, but I’m glad you’ve arrived.  And you’re right, it is difficult to see a clear way forward when your wife blames you for the physical and verbal abuse she directs at you and for every feeling and sensation that she has.  I’m hoping that none of that has been directed toward your precious children.  Yet.

Yes, you have posted on the “Bettering” board, and there are communication skills you can work on that *may* work to improve things between you and your BPDw.

I would suggest looking at the top of the page at the Tools, and scrolling down to the topic on learning NOT to “JADE” - i.e. Do NOT Jusify, Argue, Defend, Explain.  Learning and absorbing those skill feels very foreign at first, but can be very helpful in time.

In addition, it may be a good idea to read through *Validation*, more specifically, how to NOT be INvalidating.  Since pwBPD (people with BPD) seem to seek/need constant external validation, meltdowns can rapidly occur if they perceive (even in your face, eyes or tone of voice) any sense of “rejection” or criticism.  I’m kind of overstating here to make a point.  But I’m not really overstating by much.  At least in my past reality.

Finally, to a pwBPD, feelings = facts.  Think about that.  And that changes moment to moment.

Nothing changes until something changes.  So my friend, it’s going to have to be you.  If you haven’t considered individual therapy (T), this would be good for you… you deserve the support.  If you are in T, please continue.

Again, I am sorry for what you’re experiencing.  And I hope your children are physically and emotionally safe.  I found through my 25.5 years with disordered partners (2) that I could not love either of them to wellness.  I loved both of them when I had to leave.

Please continue posting.

Warmly,
Gems

[Pook075]

Are there any generally accepted plans of action or best practices when in a long discard where she only sees you as the source of all her pain?

To put in the simplest terms possible, show her that you're not the source of all her pain.  How?  Be more patient, loving, and reassuring when she starts to spiral.  When she's upset, ask what you can do to help...and then actually do it (or talk it out).  When she's angry, don't try to defend yourself from her words, just listen and support her first as you try to see where the emotions are actually coming from.

The other side of that is healthy boundaries.  You mentioned that she has the right to hit you, throw things at you, etc.  That's assault and it is a crime.  What have you done to discourage that type of behavior?  Because if you do nothing or you just argue and get hit some more, then you're essentially telling her that physical abuse is okay.  That's enabling her to spiral even further down the rabbit hole.  In those situations, you dial 9-1-1 and ask for assistance.

Likewise, heated arguments happen from time to time, but just screaming at you also requires a boundary.  It can be something as simple as, "I'd like to work through this with you, but you're too upset at the moment.  Can we sit down and talk calmly?  Or would you rather I left for a bit so you can calm down?"  Then you follow through.

People don't like new boundaries and at first, they'll generate even worse behavior.  That doesn't mean the boundary is not working though, it's just testing you to see if you'll actually follow through or not.  And if you don't, then you're enabling more bad behavior.  So get some healthy boundaries in place and actually stand by them.  A great book to help with that is "Stop Walking on Eggshells, 3rd Edition."

[Rocky-Trail]

Hi Rocky-

Welcome to the site.  I’m very sorry for the painful trauma in your marriage that brings you here, but I’m glad you’ve arrived.  And you’re right, it is difficult to see a clear way forward when your wife blames you for the physical and verbal abuse she directs at you and for every feeling and sensation that she has.  I’m hoping that none of that has been directed toward your precious children.  Yet.

The counselor I've met most with and who has attempted to do marriage counseling for the two of us told me it was just a matter of time until my kids started seeing the brokenness. sadly that has officially started for my oldest 3. She has always done a few broken things towards them, but not ever to the level of what has been directed at me. However, now that they have begun to push back more often as young men, she occasionally will have a verbal outburst towards them. I've been working since this past summer to give them safe outlets to process what they're experiencing, both from her and from me going through my own pain. Thankfully I've never seen her get physically abusive in her anger towards the kids.

Yes, you have posted on the “Bettering” board, and there are communication skills you can work on that *may* work to improve things between you and your BPDw.

I would suggest looking at the top of the page at the Tools, and scrolling down to the topic on learning NOT to “JADE” - i.e. Do NOT Jusify, Argue, Defend, Explain.  Learning and absorbing those skill feels very foreign at first, but can be very helpful in time.

In addition, it may be a good idea to read through *Validation*, more specifically, how to NOT be INvalidating.  Since pwBPD (people with BPD) seem to seek/need constant external validation, meltdowns can rapidly occur if they perceive (even in your face, eyes or tone of voice) any sense of “rejection” or criticism.  I’m kind of overstating here to make a point.  But I’m not really overstating by much.  At least in my past reality.

Finally, to a pwBPD, feelings = facts.  Think about that.  And that changes moment to moment.

This is the new work I am trying to do. It does truly feel "foreign" in a lot of ways, and is dependent on me really changing my view and expectations of her. I haven't allowed in my thinking or actions for her to be a person with a true disorder in the past, I know we all have our own weaknesses and anyone can slip into broken patterns, so I treated it as something significantly less all consuming than a personality disorder... The feelings = facts things is so hard because it's something that goes against a deeply held belief for me. I will likely never accept this as "right" but hopefully I can learn to accommodate for this "truth" in her life.
 

Nothing changes until something changes.  So my friend, it’s going to have to be you.  If you haven’t considered individual therapy (T), this would be good for you… you deserve the support.  If you are in T, please continue.

This is another truth I'm trying to incorporate into my thoughts. There's no indication of her changing anytime soon, but I can. I am in individual therapy and I am adding to my inner circle in a way I've never done before to stop isolating myself. I've always hidden her behaviors out of some combination of embarrassment/shame and also self protection of not wanting to have to deal with others having to decide if her most broken thoughts about me are true.

Again, I am sorry for what you’re experiencing.  And I hope your children are physically and emotionally safe.  I found through my 25.5 years with disordered partners (2) that I could not love either of them to wellness.  I loved both of them when I had to leave.

Please continue posting.

Warmly,
Gems

Thank you for your kindness. I believe my kids are physically safe. I'm working on the emotional safety. I don't believe I can love her into wellness. Of course I want her to be well, but I no longer believe that I have the power to get her there.

[Rocky-Trail]

To put in the simplest terms possible, show her that you're not the source of all her pain.  How?  Be more patient, loving, and reassuring when she starts to spiral.  When she's upset, ask what you can do to help...and then actually do it (or talk it out).  When she's angry, don't try to defend yourself from her words, just listen and support her first as you try to see where the emotions are actually coming from.

No question I have work to do in this area. It always feel so crazy, like where did these thoughts come from? Also, because I have a pretty significant amount of training on communication in marriage I see mistakes she's making logically and I've focused more on defending against those and also asking her to see and change them, rather than seeing and trying to understand her emotions.

The other side of that is healthy boundaries.  You mentioned that she has the right to hit you, throw things at you, etc.  That's assault and it is a crime.  What have you done to discourage that type of behavior?  Because if you do nothing or you just argue and get hit some more, then you're essentially telling her that physical abuse is okay.  That's enabling her to spiral even further down the rabbit hole.  In those situations, you dial 9-1-1 and ask for assistance.

As of late she has stopped the physical attacks. I believe deep down she knows these are wrong and has found a way to settle on what feels more justifiable to her which is still verbal abuse. In the event of physical abuse of me, unless I have a video of it I would not call 911. I can't get in a situation of her word vs mine. She will lie. Instead I will leave to create distance, and now I would communicate with my support network what just happened.

Likewise, heated arguments happen from time to time, but just screaming at you also requires a boundary.  It can be something as simple as, "I'd like to work through this with you, but you're too upset at the moment.  Can we sit down and talk calmly?  Or would you rather I left for a bit so you can calm down?"  Then you follow through.

People don't like new boundaries and at first, they'll generate even worse behavior.  That doesn't mean the boundary is not working though, it's just testing you to see if you'll actually follow through or not.  And if you don't, then you're enabling more bad behavior.  So get some healthy boundaries in place and actually stand by them.  A great book to help with that is "Stop Walking on Eggshells, 3rd Edition."

The stop walking on eggshells book along with meeting with my current therapist is what convinced me this is the disorder I'm actually facing. I laughed and told him this is a horrible title for this book, because I'm still walking on eggshells all the time since I'm the one who has to fully regulate myself in order to have less of her rage. Really I'm just walking on eggshells in a different way. Hopefully I can figure out how to change my patterns though and it will actually lead to less conflict. My current boundary has been to call a timeout and leave the discussion when it starts to go bad. That has made her so so mad, but it does diffuse the downward spiral for me to disengage. What never happens is for me to be able to advocate for myself or my own needs in a relationship. It also doesn't stop the out of the blue rage that I can't predict because some random run in the mill statement or action provokes her. Lastly She is a queen of stonewalling. So I've really got to change my pattern of needing her to fulfill any relational need I might have. There are no safe requests I can make of her. That makes me so sad. It's so hard to let go of the dream of having a healthy marriage with a wife that supports your own health too.

[Pook075]

I laughed and told him this is a horrible title for this book, because I'm still walking on eggshells all the time since I'm the one who has to fully regulate myself in order to have less of her rage. Really I'm just walking on eggshells in a different way. Hopefully I can figure out how to change my patterns though and it will actually lead to less conflict.

My brother, we all walk on eggshells to some degree, even after we think we have a decent handle on this.  You will mess up and you will say the wrong things- I know that because all of us have.  This isn't about being perfect, it's about being consistent to change the dialogue (of you not caring about her).  It's frustrating and it's unfair at times, but that's the path.

What never happens is for me to be able to advocate for myself or my own needs in a relationship. It also doesn't stop the out of the blue rage that I can't predict because some random run in the mill statement or action provokes her. Lastly She is a queen of stonewalling. So I've really got to change my pattern of needing her to fulfill any relational need I might have.

This is really insightful and really sad at the same time.  I've been there and that realization really stung, but I also accepted where it was coming from- my ex couldn't be there in ways I needed her to be because she was hurting so deeply.  But think about this- what's the real goal here?  To make the marriage work and grow closer over time, or to receive instant validation?  It's a tough question to answer and everyone will have a different answer. 

You are 100% correct though that your happiness has to come from you- never forget that and recite it like a mantra.  Healing comes from within and no matter how hard we try to seek it in other places, those are just temporary fixes.  Spirituality comes to mind- I don't know if you have a religious belief, but that's what got me through this and continues to strengthen me.

Keep talking this out, my friend, and you will get through this.

[Rocky-Trail]

You are 100% correct though that your happiness has to come from you- never forget that and recite it like a mantra.  Healing comes from within and no matter how hard we try to seek it in other places, those are just temporary fixes.  Spirituality comes to mind- I don't know if you have a religious belief, but that's what got me through this and continues to strengthen me.

Keep talking this out, my friend, and you will get through this.

I am a man of faith. That’s one of the really hard things for me to figure out. Of course it’s a source of strength for me. But it also defines for me  how to treat another human being. Her actions when triggered have  always seemed so incongruent with our shared faith which should lead to honoring and serving one another. It’s something I’m working to come to terms with.

[Rocky-Trail]

Question?

How do y’all deal with the knowledge of your partner’s disorder without being able to ever talk with them about it?

It feels so off to have counselors talking to me about her borderline personality problems, but they are unable to talk to her about them. I can never personally tell her about it, because no way can she hear it from me.  I can’t go to our friends and family and say, “well you know the therapist told me that she has many traits of borderline personality disorder, but don’t say a thing to her because no one can tell her that,”

What has your flow been?

[Pook075]

I am a man of faith. That’s one of the really hard things for me to figure out. Of course it’s a source of strength for me. But it also defines for me  how to treat another human being. Her actions when triggered have  always seemed so incongruent with our shared faith which should lead to honoring and serving one another. It’s something I’m working to come to terms with.

Her actions are from mental illness and it's very sad to watch.  With faith, turn your anger into compassion since you know what's happening is her lashing out in pain.  The Bible is clear though, how you serve others is not dependent on how they serve you.  Especially your wife.  It's a lousy answer but it is the truth.

Question?

How do y’all deal with the knowledge of your partner’s disorder without being able to ever talk with them about it?

I've been stuck in that situation myself and it's not fun.  After the breakup, I talked to our family doctor (who also diagnosed my BPD daughter years ago) and shared what had happened between us.  My wife asked me to do this as well, only to become frenzied once I actually did it because she thought I was going to have her committed.  Looking back, why would she think that if deep down, she didn't realize something was way off?

The doctor told me is was "classic BPD" and had me try to think of other recycling patterns from the past.  There were a few that stood out.  And after leaving the doctor, I called my wife to talk to her about it.  She became enraged, followed by hysterical crying where she kept repeating, "I'm not crazy, I'm not crazy."  I tried to reassure her that she wasn't crazy, she just processed thoughts differently and we had to work through that together.  It was the last "real" conversation I've had with her though and that was about 10 months ago.

Your partner will get treatment for her disorder when she's ready, and there's nothing you can say or do that will help that process.  There's just no way for you to bring it up without it coming across as an accusation or a personal attack.  Maybe you say it with all the love and compassion in the world, but that's not how her emotional mind translates it.  She's going to hear, "You think I'm crazy," and it's not going to be a good outcome.  Until she gains that realization, consider it a taboo topic that just can't be discussed.

As far as how you deal with it, let me flip that back to you with a question.  If your wife wakes up tomorrow with a swollen ankle with a deep bruise, how would you deal with it?  Of course you mention the doctor's office, and let's say she refuses.  What do you do?

[Cat Familiar]

While I am not choosing to leave the relationship physically I see no way of becoming again the guy she fell in love with when I was a teenager/college student. That guy doesn't exist anymore. I have to create something new for myself that isn't some fantasy, but can exist in the actual relationship I'm in, with what is truly available to me. Sadly right now I can't see anyway that allows her to be a safe place for me. How would I ever trust her with my vulnerability? She uses every vulnerability I have as a power play against me whenever she's raging. There is no governor on the ways she is willing to hurt me when she is hurting. It feels right now like I have to build a life where I'm strong enough to not really need her, or be hurt by her attacks. I have no idea how she will respond to a stronger me who can attempt to give her what she needs out of care and love for her, but not really out of a vulnerable place of trying to build a mutually beneficial relationship together. Maybe she will respond better and life could actually be better when I don't feel the need to challenge her to be better to meet my needs. Maybe not. Impossible for me to know.

It’s antithetical to our typical concept of what a marriage is, but building a strong impenetrable self seems to be the only way not to be bruised, overcome, destroyed by having a partner with BPD.

So many of us here are gobsmacked by the concept that our beloved is a diametrically oppositional combatant rather than a cooperative partner. Such is the nature of BPD. We were lured in by the phase where they mirrored our best qualities. Then once ensnared, we see a far different side of them manifesting.

Though it’s challenging, there is potential to regain a strong emotionally centered stance in the relationship, regardless of their ephemerally inconsistent emotional output. They are not going to take the steps to change; we must be the emotional leaders.

It’s truly disappointing when we think we’ve finally met our soulmate, only to witness a truly bizarre iteration of the person we initially fell in love with. But here we are. And facing that fact, allows us to look for strategies that can make life a lot better. If you haven’t already, check out the Tools at the top of this page and keep reading and posting.

[Rocky-Trail]

Man. It’s just all so hard. I’m tired and sad and there’s just no light at the end of the tunnel. She’s turned a corner to being so fully convinced of the narrative in her own head that she’s starting to try and convince others in our family and friends how bad I am and how much help I need. And while I know she needs confidants/people who encourage and love her, it’s so hard for them not to know the whole truth. It just seems so pathetic to say “yea I know what she’s saying sounds horrible, but that’s not really how it happened, even though I did do some really hurtful things along the way over the years, let me share a few things she’s done, or what was really happening”

She split on me hard last November and subsequently I really tried to convince her that she was seeing it wrong that I really do love her and I’m not nearly as bad as she’s saying… She agreed to go to couples counseling with me in May, but that has been nothing but more pain, and a downward spiral. She’s just dug further and further in to the story line that I’m fully the problem and she just denies the things she’s actually saying and doing. Is there ever any benefit to couples counseling with a uBPD wife who can’t see that there’s something amiss?

I’m afraid I made a mistake because I gave the go ahead to try a new counselor. The counselor that we’ve spent so much time with over many years isn’t really an option anymore because she is totally done with him since he wouldn’t align 100% with her story. He told me his only hope is for her to break at some point in the future as more and more people don’t align with her narrative and then maybe she’ll realize she needs help. Until then there wasn’t really anything he could do to help her. So now with trying a new counselor I’m in the horrible place of having to re-tell again all the crappy things I did actually do, and be drug over the coals for it, while hoping the counselor can also see the truth in what I share about the things happening in our marriage even though it will be totally denied by her. All for what? So she’ll split on this one too as soon as her narrative isn’t in control… why do I try to have hope that someone can help? We’ve spent like $10,000 on therapy this year, and things are worse.

In the last couple of weeks I got yelled at and told I didn’t love her because I didn’t read her mind and stop exactly the way she wanted me to for lunch while driving. I got yelled at and locked out of my house because I held my ground on a boundary that we both had previously agreed to. For this one she called her mom, my dad, and one of her close friends to try to garner support for herself. A few days later she went off on me and told me I was deceptive because I went to a therapy session alone without telling her. I go to sessions at least a couple of times a month on my own,  it hidden, they’re on my calendar. So I’m not really sure why this was surprising.

It’s so hard to bear not only her negative beliefs about me, but now her desire to have others that I deeply care about believe the same broken things about me that she does.

[zondolit]

How do y’all deal with the knowledge of your partner’s disorder without being able to ever talk with them about it?

Hi Rocky-Trail,

This has been very difficult for me. . .but it has gotten easier over time. I was/am in a similar situation where counselors tell me my spouse (who I am divorcing) has BPD and NPD but he does not have an official diagnosis. Three things I've found helpful:

1. I remind myself I am not a professional; I cannot diagnose anyone. Further, the point of diagnosis, in my mind, is treatment, and since I have to focus on the relationship treatment, or only the changes I can make, then I have all the treatment currently available to me: the skills and discussions offered by this forum, for example.

2. The need to speak truthfully is strong in me. Instead of focusing on personality disorders, I started to tell him how he made me feel. I was descriptive. I'd say things like "I don't like how you treat me" and "I do not like being accused" and "You seem really angry." I'm not sure these ever helped him, but they helped me with the truth-telling bit. Likewise, when talking to others, as I sometimes need to do, these are things I feel I can repeat to some people because I've told them to him.

3. When I'd get lulled into the idea that maybe sharing my diagnosis of him would help, I'd try out some smaller thing, like bringing up how something he'd done made me uncomfortable. His angry, blaming reaction to a simple relationship matter I'd like to share with him would convince me straight away: nope, sharing anything about BPD would only make things worse.

That said, it was a really uncomfortable feeling to come to the realization of his personality disorders and not be able to tell him. Because I wanted a marriage where I could share important things with my husband. It made me face the fact that our marriage was more parent-child than wife-husband, and that is something to grieve.

We’ve spent like $10,000 on therapy this year, and things are worse.

Been there, done that. While I ultimately realized the therapy wasn't helping our marriage, I did learn a lot from the process and I am grateful for that. Was it worth the emotional and financial cost? From where I am now, yes, it's just that how it helped was not what I expected.

So now with trying a new counselor I’m in the horrible place of having to re-tell again all the crappy things I did actually do, and be drug over the coals for it, while hoping the counselor can also see the truth in what I share about the things happening in our marriage even though it will be totally denied by her.

Over time, I learned to trust the therapists and process more. It's hard because there are some therapists who are not so good or not so perceptive, and in these cases there is a potential that the therapist compounds the problem. But overall, I learned that a personality disorder will make itself known in a therapy setting. I don't have to point it out myself.

And marriage counseling can be rough on anyone, I believe. Admitting you did some crappy things may be seen as a sign of emotional health by a therapist because it is so difficult and yet you are willing to face that pain and responsibility; it stands in stark contrast to what someone with an untreated personality disorder is able to do.

[Broken Record]

Hi Rocky,

Very sorry to hear what you’re going through. I can’t begin to explain, like many others here, your life sounds like a mirror of what I’m facing at the moment too. I’m 22 years into marriage, 3 kids together all teenagers / adult, and 2 years now since the devaluing started - effectively called being split or painted black.

In my case, it coincided with my wife finding an emotional attachment to another man (a new favourite person) - someone to idealise as pwbpd do. Anyhow, few things I’ve learnt:

1. It’s absolutely pointless trying to suggest there is something wrong with their mental health (or anything wrong at all in fact). Pwbpd carry deep shame and guard themselves from those painful feelings so they will deflect and blame others to avoid those feelings. It does feel like its a concerted effort to be a monster, but really its an unconscious defence mechanism - I know it seems impossible but don’t take it personally, its not about you at all. I struggle with it on a daily basis still, but reminding myself that they’re effectively an emotionally stunted toddler helps change my mindset.

You cannot and will not be able to get her into therapy (even receive a diagnosis) by force - even if she does agree to go due to some ultimatum, its likely she won’t follow through with it. From all my readings, the desire to actually change needs to come from her and that will generally happen when she realises the pain of not changing / getting help surpasses the path to change. This is usually when they hit a “rockbottom” moment and thats something that only she can decide for herself. My theory is this rock bottom point is generally reached quicker for low functioning borderlines vs high functioning as the crisis points / blow backs for low functioning pwbdp reach are much greater. High functioning pwbpd can generally keep moving and seemingly have a good life from the outside and use that as justification that theres nothing wrong. If you read the success stories on this board, it sounds like a lot of the ones that were able to get into therapy sounded like they were low functioning (suicide attempts, substance abuse, trouble with the law etc). Anyhow, just a theory of mine.

I’m also dubious about marriage counselling being effective - if you read boards here, most will say it doesn’t work out with an untreated pwbdp. My general experience is much the same - they’ll just bring whatever arguments and deflection into the counselling session, more importantly if they have no desire to change or better the relationship, MC can be futile. It only works if both want to better the relationship, and in their untreated state, I don’t feel thats possible.

2. I absolutely resonate with your feelings of wanting your needs met in the relationship. I’ve come to learn this is or will be impossible in the current state and I cannot rely upon this marriage to get that. While that is what a normal person ought to expect from a marriage, its not the case in a relationship with a pwbpd. Best thing you can do for your mental health is detach and work on yourself. I found journaling helps and am also seeing a therapist.

3. Pwbdp will smear you to the tilt - its a trait of their mental illness to receive validation from anyone who will sympathise. Again, try not to take it personally as awful as it is. Also do not triangulate with those people, it will only make things worse. Your character should speak for itself through your actions and I would leave others to come to their own judgments. If they cannot, its their problem, don’t defend yourself.

4. Yes keep working on setting boundaries, esp with physical violence. Its needed not just for your own safety but to also teach her what is and isn’t acceptable behaviour.

5. Keep working on validation techniques, it definitely helps to diffuse heated discussions / attacks. Its hard and won’t always work out, but keep trying and do what works for you, its a trial and error process.

6. Only thing you can do at this point is to keep working on yourself - which will be uncomfortable at first but you need to get out of the cycle of caretaking the relationship constantly.

[Pook075]

She’s just dug further and further in to the story line that I’m fully the problem and she just denies the things she’s actually saying and doing. Is there ever any benefit to couples counseling with a uBPD wife who can’t see that there’s something amiss?

I never made it to couples counseling, even though I pushed for it through any means necessary.  However, one thing I've picked up on since separating is that everything you described, every battle you're reliving inside a counselor's office, none of it actually means anything if we're truly being honest. 

You both messed up in the past- everyone knows that because we've all messed up more times than we can count.  Turning the tides here isn't solved by rehashing old memories and proving who did what; I know that because I did the exact same thing in saying, "That's not even remotely close to how it happened!"

The way you work past this, the way you make actual progress, is by living in the present and focusing on today.  Today, you can choose to love your wife and let all that garbage go. 

For your wife to move forward, she has to stop looking backwards.  The way you help that process is just loving her right now, encouraging her, and giving her support.  That's how that BPD switch in their minds finally clicks and realizes that we're not the enemy.

I do realize how impossibly hard that may sound, but it is the surest path forward.  I hope that helps at least a little bit.

[Rocky-Trail]

“2. The need to speak truthfully is strong in me. Instead of focusing on personality disorders, I started to tell him how he made me feel. I was descriptive. I'd say things like "I don't like how you treat me" and "I do not like being accused" and "You seem really angry." I'm not sure these ever helped him, but they helped me with the truth-telling bit. Likewise, when talking to others, as I sometimes need to do, these are things I feel I can repeat to some people because I've told them to him.”

It’s important to me to speak truth as well. I believe this comes out of my belief that truth and understanding of what’s going on is the first step in making the right changes and not making hurtful mistakes in the future. I also think this has come with a very bad concurrent desire in me for her to have understanding of the situation as well. Of course we have different perspectives and takes on things, however in so many of our most painful situations, our takes are so drastically different and incongruent with one another that it’s put us in a place that seems irreconcilable. The counselor specifically said to me that our current viewpoints are irreconcilable, but my only solace was that after spending time with us both for over a decade that he has been validating my understanding of what’s going on and also validating when I am handling situations correctly. He also challenges me on ways to do better when I don’t handle things well and in our last session stated that the way he sees me handling this currently is the best I’ve done in the time he’s spent with me, that I’m operating with a “humble strength.” The problem is that even though I  have adopted new boundaries and new ways of interacting, I don’t feel strong. I feel so very sad and weak. The way my wife currently views me is such a deep pain to live with, even with the knowledge that it’s a disorder guiding her thoughts.

Over time, I learned to trust the therapists and process more. It's hard because there are some therapists who are not so good or not so perceptive, and in these cases there is a potential that the therapist compounds the problem. But overall, I learned that a personality disorder will make itself known in a therapy setting. I don't have to point it out myself.

And marriage counseling can be rough on anyone, I believe. Admitting you did some crappy things may be seen as a sign of emotional health by a therapist because it is so difficult and yet you are willing to face that pain and responsibility; it stands in stark contrast to what someone with an untreated personality disorder is able to do.

I’ve seen this to be true. At this juncture the 3 counselors we’ve ever met with together were able to discern that I was not the principally unhealthy one and that she was. However, without her own ability to accept her own distinction we re just spinning around in very painful circles. She can’t it’s not just her need to make some small behavioral changes, like stop yelling, but a deeper problem. Her current stated goal is that she just needs counseling to “learn how to live with a terrible husband.” (Which also means she’s desperately looking for a counselor, family member, or friend to tell me that I’m the terrible one causing all the pain) I’m just so tired of the attack….

[Rocky-Trail]

It’s antithetical to our typical concept of what a marriage is, but building a strong impenetrable self seems to be the only way not to be bruised, overcome, destroyed by having a partner with BPD.

So many of us here are gobsmacked by the concept that our beloved is a diametrically oppositional combatant rather than a cooperative partner. Such is the nature of BPD. We were lured in by the phase where they mirrored our best qualities. Then once ensnared, we see a far different side of them manifesting.

So much truth here. I just wanted to say thanks for your thoughts. Even after all this time of living in this, I’m still really grieving these truths and struggling to adopt a new way of viewing my marriage.

[Rocky-Trail]

. 
For your wife to move forward, she has to stop looking backwards.  The way you help that process is just loving her right now, encouraging her, and giving her support.  That's how that BPD switch in their minds finally clicks and realizes that we're not the enemy.

I do realize how impossibly hard that may sound, but it is the surest path forward.  I hope that helps at least a little bit.

This was my mindset when asking her to go to counseling with me starting in May. I communicated that I did not believe we were going to be able to agree on the past, but that we could build something new and have a healthy relationship moving forward. However, she’s just proven that she’s unable to follow through on the actions the counselor asked her to agree to. In addition she needs her view of the hurt from the past in order to validate her actions then and now. It just feels like such a trap with no legitimate way out of the hurt. Really,. I’m just sad today because I  want to fix it and don’t like the only options currently available to me.

[SaltyDawg]

1. It’s absolutely pointless trying to suggest there is something wrong with their mental health (or anything wrong at all in fact). Pwbpd carry deep shame and guard themselves from those painful feelings so they will deflect and blame others to avoid those feelings. It does feel like its a concerted effort to be a monster, but really its an unconscious defence mechanism - I know it seems impossible but don’t take it personally, its not about you at all. I struggle with it on a daily basis still, but reminding myself that they’re effectively an emotionally stunted toddler helps change my mindset.

You cannot and will not be able to get her into therapy (even receive a diagnosis) by force - even if she does agree to go due to some ultimatum, its likely she won’t follow through with it. From all my readings, the desire to actually change needs to come from her and that will generally happen when she realises the pain of not changing / getting help surpasses the path to change. This is usually when they hit a “rockbottom” moment and thats something that only she can decide for herself. My theory is this rock bottom point is generally reached quicker for low functioning borderlines vs high functioning as the crisis points / blow backs for low functioning pwbdp reach are much greater. High functioning pwbpd can generally keep moving and seemingly have a good life from the outside and use that as justification that theres nothing wrong. If you read the success stories on this board, it sounds like a lot of the ones that were able to get into therapy sounded like they were low functioning (suicide attempts, substance abuse, trouble with the law etc). Anyhow, just a theory of mine.

I’m also dubious about marriage counselling being effective - if you read boards here, most will say it doesn’t work out with an untreated pwbdp. My general experience is much the same - they’ll just bring whatever arguments and deflection into the counselling session, more impo
 if both want to better the relationship, and in their untreated state, I don’t feel thats possible.

I am going to 'push back' a little bit on this one.  For most people this holds true.  However, if your pwBPD knows something is wrong with them, if done in a very tactful way, it will not be received well, but in the case of my wife, she actually looked at several resources before she decided she didn't have it, because her therapists told her so (3 of them, even though one changed her mind to a 'maybe' just as she fired us as a couple after 3 years of going nowhere, but she gave me some awesome tools to inculcate change).

I am pretty sure that all of the T's have seen the symptoms based on the advice they have given me after they see my wife have a minor episode while in session!

Over a decade ago, I brought my wife into couple's T.  We found one that she clicked with, but she retired, just as we started to make progress.  I think she fired us as she knew my wife was the issue as 90% of the sessions were directed towards my wife, and 10% me.  I tried a few more T's, but my wife fired each one of those.

After my D was in 'grippy sock jail' for her diagnosed anorexia nervosa.  My wife dragged me to couple's therapy to get fixed.  (I was still oblivious to BPD at that time).  For three years, this T tried her best with no progress.  I would allow my wife to sew her false narrative (her imagined facts based on her extreme feelings) which I did not challenge [BIG MISTAKE - challenge all false narrative, but own your own sh!t] on my part - and I was on the receiving end of countless countertransference attacks by the couple's therapist where she identified me as the person with the issue, not my wife. 

The 1st turning point... almost three years in... My wife tried a suicide attempt after I told her I was going to spend less time addressing her issues and to actually start self-care for myself, I was given an ultimatum to start my own individual therapy.  This self-care was part of our couple's T homework assignment, as was the ultimatum to go to individual therapy.

The couple's T held an emergency meeting and determine my wife should not be admitted for evaluation (big mistake in my opinion after reflecting on her decision a half year later, so she could be properly diagnosed, but I am not the 'professional' so I followed her 'bad' advice without challenging it).

On the first session, about 1/2 an hour in, with my individual T, he immediately recognized a bipolar or borderline dynamic going on. I looked up both, and determined it was borderline based on the 9/9 symptom match with my wife - ick.  (I do have some formal medical training)

After I did a deep dive on myself with my individual T.  I started to highlight symptoms and traits within our couple's sessions by prompting my wife to talk about it.  I highlighted an old DV incident, the couple's T a mandated reporter, reported it.  A couple months later, my wife smacked the crap out of the wall twice, at this point the couple's T changed her mind and said "maybe, just maybe..." as she fired us, by not making any more room in her schedule and told us we were not a 'good fit'.  This T reminded me a lot of ex-gf who was a much more severe borderline than my wife (the exgf) and the T was possibly a recovered borderline herself and she was definitely a recovered anorexic (the reason why she was initially paired with us in the first place).  On the last session, this couple's T gave me a tremendous amount of tools to move forward like talking to her individual T, writing the T of the facts.  Her individual T didn't like it, as it messed up the applecart; however, her individual T was able to shift, and make effective progress with my wife.

Once you get your sense of self back, it is okay to push-back on T's.  At most these T's only see you on your 'best behavior' for 45-55 minutes per week while you are stuck with your pwBPD 24/7.  If you can articulate facts (not feelings, nor calling out specific symptoms) couple's therapy can be effective.  I found out the hard way of being complacent for 3 years that it isn't.  For it to be effective one needs to steer the therapy to the topics that need to be addressed (the symptoms) by describing the symptoms without calling specific attention to the symptoms - this works best.

I also shifted the focus of reconnecting with my wife to 'all abuse must stop' as I am using the firefighting mentality, you must put out the fire before you can rebuild.  In my case the fire is mostly out, still smoldering here and there - this process took a full year to do, and the first half year it got worse first before it got better.  And I am just starting the rebuilding process.

2. I absolutely resonate with your feelings of wanting your needs met in the relationship. I’ve come to learn this is or will be impossible in the current state and I cannot rely upon this marriage to get that. While that is what a normal person ought to expect from a marriage, its not the case in a relationship with a pwbpd. Best thing you can do for your mental health is detach and work on yourself. I found journaling helps and am also seeing a therapist.

#MeToo - it is a process.  I also want that, but I am also realistic, that the rebuilding process takes time, the fire has just been put under control in my case.  I am feeling once enough of the rebuilding process has been done, my needs will once again be met.  I am actually seeing signs of this for the past month.  I have hope that this will continue.  I have 'hope'!

3. Pwbdp will smear you to the tilt - its a trait of their mental illness to receive validation from anyone who will sympathise. Again, try not to take it personally as awful as it is. Also do not triangulate with those people, it will only make things worse. Your character should speak for itself through your actions and I would leave others to come to their own judgments. If they cannot, its their problem, don’t defend yourself.

I agree with you to a certain extent.  My uBPDw is not vindictive, so she did bad mouth me, and tried to smear me with a false narrative to a limited extent (only to the therapist, but not outside of it as she had to maintain a non-disordered amount of communal image - not at narcissistic levels.  Try to see your partner's feelings behind the false narrative (which are real); however, her mind will generate facts to match those extreme feelings.  As soon as you realize that she is emoting (instead of making-up false facts), address her feeling and ignore the false narrative that she is spewing while dysregulated (address it later, if you feel the need to after she becomes re-regulated, for my wife it usually is the following day).

If she is dysregulated, go 'gray rock' only while she is dysregulated (irrational and cannot be reasoned with).  If she is rational and can think and be reasoned with, then engage with SET (Support Empathy Truth) communication - by saying something along (modify it to your use case) the lines of "I know you feel like I don't do anything to support you.  I support you by doing example 1, 2, ...  Can you please help me understand how I don't support you by sharing your facts that support your feelings?"

For my wife, she is quiet, since she knows I am right - she refuses to make an apology and will keep quiet on the matter to make it go away. 

For my son, he will realize that he is in the wrong, and apologizes profusely for it.  My son is 12, prepubescent, and has 5/9 symptoms, and is all "momma's boy".  It was imperative I find a way for my wife to get better, so I used boundaries, to steer her in that direction, much like you would dig trenches for lava flows on a volcano to redirect the flow of lava - it works to a limited extent.

With my wife's behaviors becoming better so were his.

4. Yes keep working on setting boundaries, esp with physical violence. Its needed not just for your own safety but to also teach her what is and isn’t acceptable behaviour.

I agree fully with this.  This is what has worked with my wife.

It is important not to implement boundaries too fast, or all at once - it will overwhelm them.  Pick one boundary at a time, starting with the  bad behavior you want to stop first.  Physical violence is the easiest one to address, so is Suicide threats/attempts - this is where you want to start to attack the fire of her bad behaviors.  For me it was 1.  Suicidal behaviors,  2.  Physical violence behaviors,   3.  Full out verbal rages (immediate), & inappropriate displays of anger (several months)  4.  False accusations & paranoia (a few weeks),  5.  Mood swings (still in progress),  6.  Dissassociation (just identifying these while in session as they come up) - these are categories which are very close to the symptoms, I had to address each individual behavior once per week, and there is overlap, especially on lapses of these behaviors.  I let the therapist do most of the teaching, since I was painted black during most of this process and she wouldn't listen to me, but she did listen to the Therapist, whom she perceived as having her back.

I use the 'seed planting tool' to identify behaviors I will be bringing up in couple's therapy so my wife won't become dysregulated in a session (even though that has happened a bit).

5. Keep working on validation techniques, it definitely helps to diffuse heated discussions / attacks. Its hard and won’t always work out, but keep trying and do what works for you, its a trial and error process.

Agreed.  pwBPD need excessive validation, in my wife's case about 5x what normal people like.  If I do too much validation, she gets pissed - one time she yelled at me "You just called me a 'good girl', I am not a f***ing dog!" -- I clearly remember saying "You did a good job" to her with that particular outburst.  This is clearly a balance, and the only way to figure out this balance is to experiment with what is too little and what is too much.

6. Only thing you can do at this point is to keep working on yourself - which will be uncomfortable at first but you need to get out of the cycle of caretaking the relationship constantly.

Agreed. 

Best resource: 
Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life
Book by Margalis Fjelstad

Also CoDA.org has free meetings, and you can identify codependent traits in yourself.

Find a good therapist that understands this dynamic (most don't as they haven't experienced it firsthand) look for one that has had a BPD/NPD partner or has seen this dynamic up close.  They can help guide you to implement the tools in the 'stop caretaking' book.

For marriage therapy, even though this book is about divorcing a borderline, I figured out some of the techniques in this book, and implemented even more of them when I learned about it withing the context of marriage therapy.  The same techniques used in divorce cases are useful in the context of marriage therapy with a borderline or other high-conflict person, as many of the issues are common to both.  In essence you are fighting fire with fire, and you are not appeasing or compromising with your partner (which does not work, I did that for the previous 3 years) which traditional couple's therapy pushes.

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline Or Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Book by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger



I am going to end this with a reminder to self-care.  All of this takes an extreme amount of energy, and you need to fill your cup when dealing with 'crazy'.

[Rocky-Trail]

I’m so tired of the battle. There is absolutely no use in asking for change, or standing up for yourself. This has been an absolute heart wrenching disaster of a season for me.

What an utter disaster going to counseling and asking for changes has become. She just sees the counselors as her opportunity to control the narrative and demonize me with her version of events. She truly seems to have zero self awareness of how she acts out.

It feels like I’ve got to get in full control of myself and let go of any hope that I can influence her.

Last week she through a fit because I was ready to leave 2 minutes later than she had indicated she wanted to leave to go to our kids basketball game. She told me I should be “falling all over myself” apologizing and taking responsibility for this. That phrase just really got under my skin because she’s never fallen all over herself  to take responsibility for something. She’s regularly late with no acknowledgement of that, so I pushed back and said if that’s something she expects then she needs to not be hypocritical and do what she’s asking me to do. Of course this led to a major blow up by her. Yelling at me, going on  a rant about how I’m not allowed to address that now when she’s addressing me about what I had done to hurt her.

I get it. I handled it wrong. But man it’s just so hard to take all the  responsibility, all the time, and never be allowed to ask her to be responsible for her own actions.

She wouldn’t stop the rant, I called for a timeout (a tool our counselor has asked us to implement to de-escalate) she wouldn’t honor the timeout, this has been a regular pattern. So I called her out on not following the agreement. She then told me to get out of the car (she was driving) I refused. Shen then grabbed my keys to my car that I had set in the center console area and turned the car around and said she was taking me home, that she would not ride in the car with me. This meant we would miss at least most of the kids game. I was just done at this point so I grabbed her hand and took my keys back. That was such a dumb move. It gets me nothing and she just gets further proof that I’m the bad guy. I’m just so tired of the power plays….

Fast forward a few days and now she’s called her parents, my parents, her 3 closest friends, the new counselor that we had to move to because she split on the last one, all to make sure they’re in the know on how bad I am.

Clearly I’m just not cut out for caring for her fear and anger without standing up against the attack it always brings on me. I’m just so done with the fight, but there’s no way out. Crap this is an awful way to live life.

[Pook075]

Clearly I’m just not cut out for caring for her fear and anger without standing up against the attack it always brings on me. I’m just so done with the fight, but there’s no way out. Crap this is an awful way to live life.

Hey buddy, I'm so sorry things took a turn for the worse, we hadn't heard from you in a bit so I was hoping for the opposite.  These relationships are very unfair at times.

I talked to my BPD ex-wife twice yesterday (separated for 15 months, divorcing in Feb)for maybe 60-90 minutes total, which is a rarity.  My young adult BPD daughter is in bad shape at the moment though as poor spending led to her cell phone getting turned off, so I called my wife to talk out potential options (do we pay it, not pay it, etc.).  My kid is a traveling care assistant so she needs the GPS on her phone, and this was causing very high levels of anxiety and panic.  My kid also hasn't taken her meds in six weeks so it's a time bomb waiting to explode.

Anyway, the cell phone bill was $371, three months plus a bunch of late fees, and my wife said we shouldn't pay it...we should get her a Garmin GPS for less than $100 instead since she'd always have that, even if her phone gets turned off again.  That's a great solution and I wouldn't have thought of it, so I praised my wife and thanked her for helping. Overall it was a great interaction.

However, during that call, my wife routinely brought up the past in a passive-aggressive way.  For instance, she mentioned how much she loves cooking now and can make anything from scratch.  That's great.  But she went onto say that she used to try to cook for us and nobody would eat it, so she lost her passion for cooking because of us.  The truth there is she used to make boxed meals (hamburger helper type stuff), cook them poorly, and we'd eat the bare minimum because they were horrible.  But of course I didn't say that, I took another path and talked about my passion for cooking as well, how I'm making a lot more home cooked meals and it's great we both found that again.

I shared the story above because while my wife was telling me about making biscuits and gravy from scratch, or chicken and dumplings from scratch, she was proud of herself and I met that with my own cooking pride.  Great stuff.  But when she went negative on the past, I didn't take the bait or offer an explanation.  Then she told me about how the new family she spends so much time with eats all her food and appreciates it...again, I have nothing to say there because it was a total trap.  So I just reinforced how great it was to hear that she found a new passion and confidence.

Our call ended on a high note and my wife called me back about an hour later to follow up on our daughter.  The conversations went well though because I gave genuine compliments when I could, while avoiding the landmines she was trying to lay about the past.  I just wouldn't go there, there was no reason to because nothing good could come of it.  When my wife complained about other stuff though, like working on her parents home trying to get it ready for Thanksgiving, I showed empathy and complimented her on how hard she's been working day and night.

On one hand, you can say these calls were unfair- I couldn't express my true opinions at times and I had to be super careful to sidestep potential roadblocks.  But if we look at the bigger picture here, my BPD daughter was in trouble and my BPD wife stepped in to save the day with the winning idea to temporarily fix things without enabling.  Everybody ultimately won and I affirmed my wife's newfound confidence instead of trying to beat it down.

In your marriage, there's the stuff you fight about, then there's stuff that actually matters.  When BPD is involved, those are usually two completely different things because you don't always get the true story of what's going on.  Instead, you get the emotions and those emotional jabs that seem to come out of nowhere.  As spouses, our jobs are to dodge those jabs and focus on the emotions to figure out where they're coming from and how to soothe them.

Fifteen months ago, my wife was completely shut down and could only show me rage and blame.  We've changed that because I've changed, I've healed, and I've learned to lead with empathy and forgiveness.  That's the key to success for every BPD spouse or relative, to learn how to communicate in a different way so you can get past the "blame game" and focus on what actually matters...what's at the root of all the pain and suffering.  And once you do that, once the BPD sees that you genuinely care and will always try to do the right thing, the rage disappears. 

That's your goal here and you'll have to do it eventually no matter what you decide...even if the marriage fails, you're still going to have to put in the work for the kids sake and find a way to communicate differently.  So why not start now?

[Rocky-Trail]

In your marriage, there's the stuff you fight about, then there's stuff that actually matters.  When BPD is involved, those are usually two completely different things because you don't always get the true story of what's going on.  Instead, you get the emotions and those emotional jabs that seem to come out of nowhere.  As spouses, our jobs are to dodge those jabs and focus on the emotions to figure out where they're coming from and how to soothe them.

Fifteen months ago, my wife was completely shut down and could only show me rage and blame.  We've changed that because I've changed, I've healed, and I've learned to lead with empathy and forgiveness.  That's the key to success for every BPD spouse or relative, to learn how to communicate in a different way so you can get past the "blame game" and focus on what actually matters...what's at the root of all the pain and suffering.  And once you do that, once the BPD sees that you genuinely care and will always try to do the right thing, the rage disappears. 

That's your goal here and you'll have to do it eventually no matter what you decide...even if the marriage fails, you're still going to have to put in the work for the kids sake and find a way to communicate differently.  So why not start now?

I've been taking my time to process, go to counseling and continue to gain info through resources. I really appreciate you sharing from your experience, knowledge and perspective. It's genuinely so kind of you.

I think what you are sharing is in a lot of ways where I was several months ago when I took us to marriage counseling again. I really wanted to try to have a fresh start to see if we could build a new way of interacting with one another (of course not truly understanding the depth of BPD issues). I wasn't in a "healed" or strong place emotionally where I was ready to need nothing from her though, I was desperate for an emotionally safe and even rewarding relationship.

I've moved on from expecting to get anything healthy from her at this time, but I can't say I've reached the place of inner health and strength to be able to give her what she needs with consistency.

I think my biggest challenge today is living with the projection of her view of me and my actions, not that I am uncaring or unwilling to work to care for her feelings and emotions. I just struggle to do that with the personal attack that I am under currently all because I went to counseling to help define healthy interactions in our marriage (in both directions), and that counselor attempted to have her accept responsibility for some of the brokenness in the relationship she has 100% dug in to a storyline that labels me: "mentally unhealthy, manipulative, emotionally abusive, physically abusive, deceived, etc."

Currently, since she could not get the counselor to 100% buy into her narrative, she is now taking her very manipulated story to others to try and build a consensus against me. I expect some kind of intervention to come my way from them soon. It's honestly such a helpless feeling. She's gone to her mom and brothers and their wives. She's gone to our friends wives, She's gone to my sister and really wants to go to my parents, but they've not allowed her to. She's set a meeting to go to the Pastors at our church. I can't say she has BPD to defend myself, so It's just he said/she said. It's going to tear the family apart and pit my family against hers. Even though there are multiple counselors who have refused to label me a bad guy/the one doing harmful things in the relationship, she can't accept that and she can't leave the marriage, so her only other answer is to think that she can build a consensus to convince me that I'm abusive and must take responsibility for that and change.

All I know to do is stay in counseling and speak the truth I know, good bad and ugly.

[SaltyDawg]

I’m so tired of the battle. There is absolutely no use in asking for change, or standing up for yourself. This has been an absolute heart wrenching disaster of a season for me.

I will affirm that this is a never ending cross country run every waking hour.  Your wife is a master manipulator, including the therapist.  You need to learn to play her game with the couple's therapist, and poke holes in her false narrative.  It took me 3 years to figure this out before I started to push back, and like you it was an absolute disaster for the first 3 years.  I am wondering if you are seeing an individual therapist?  I am, and I use my individual therapist as a sounding board, to discuss the couple's therapy, and come up with strategies to counter the false narrative.  Most will test your knowledge on BPD and why you think this is the case before they will help you with something like that.


What an utter disaster going to counseling and asking for changes has become. She just sees the counselors as her opportunity to control the narrative and demonize me with her version of events. She truly seems to have zero self awareness of how she acts out.

My wife was very similar.  Instead of asking for changes, I pointed out behaviors of borderline, started with the more obvious ones like physical violence, parentification of our children, whatever the most recent issue of the week was.  Express how it affects you, and then let the counselor work on modifying those behaviors.  Also, observe what your wife does, what is effective for her with the therapist, and then apply what you have learned for your own benefit.

When talking to your wife, focus on validating her feelings, and not the false narrative she is spewing.  When you connect with her then explain this is what you are doing (even if it contradicts her false narrative), get her agree to everything that you are doing for her, then turn to the therapist, and ask the therapist that you do all of these things, yet my wife indicated that she feels that I don't do this, can you help us understand the disconnect between her feelings and the facts which she just acknowledged as true which contradicts her feelings.  I don't call specific attention to the symptom, but I do focus on the behaviours that contradictory from the stated feelings.

Further guidance can be found in the following book "The High-Conflict Couple: Dialectical Behavior Therapy Guide to Finding Peace, Intimacy" by Alan E. Fruzzetti


Last week she through a fit because I was ready to leave 2 minutes later than she had indicated she wanted to leave to go to our kids basketball game. She told me I should be “falling all over myself” apologizing and taking responsibility for this. That phrase just really got under my skin because she’s never fallen all over herself  to take responsibility for something. She’s regularly late with no acknowledgement of that, so I pushed back and said if that’s something she expects then she needs to not be hypocritical and do what she’s asking me to do. Of course this led to a major blow up by her. Yelling at me, going on  a rant about how I’m not allowed to address that now when she’s addressing me about what I had done to hurt her.

This is how I would handle that with the couple's therapist.  I set alarms on my phone, back them up 5 minutes, so I am literally waiting in the car for my kids and her to join me in the car 2-4 minutes before we actually have to leave.  That way there is no way she can yell at me like that before, even though she herself is a few minutes late getting to the car.  I usually read my phone while waiting in the car.  I do not mention that she is late, and the kid get to practice late, and has to run an extra suicide or two.  If she makes an issue of it, I state in a cool, calm voice, I was waiting in the car for 7 minutes, that is why we are 5 minutes late for kidz practice.  I don't assign blame to her, I state the facts, and let it be.  If the topic comes up in couple's therapy, I add I make sure that I am always on time, as my wife says that she  feels that I am never on time.  I let the therapist see the conundrum in order to address it.


I get it. I handled it wrong. But man it’s just so hard to take all the  responsibility, all the time, and never be allowed to ask her to be responsible for her own actions.

Borderlines are hard wired to blame shift, and you are their target of blame, the one they love the most - that is the paradox of mental illness.  They lash out at the ones they love the most.

I use a combination of emotional tools, all difficult to learn, but are effective if you learn them.  I use a combination of setting boundaries, removing triggers, use non-abrasive communication techniques that focus on validating feelings, and downplay the false narrative of facts that do not support her feelings (unless relevant).  This is so hard to learn, but makes life tolerable if it is implimented.


She wouldn’t stop the rant, I called for a timeout (a tool our counselor has asked us to implement to de-escalate) she wouldn’t honor the timeout, this has been a regular pattern. So I called her out on not following the agreement. She then told me to get out of the car (she was driving) I refused. Shen then grabbed my keys to my car that I had set in the center console area and turned the car around and said she was taking me home, that she would not ride in the car with me. This meant we would miss at least most of the kids game. I was just done at this point so I grabbed her hand and took my keys back. That was such a dumb move. It gets me nothing and she just gets further proof that I’m the bad guy. I’m just so tired of the power plays….


Calling for a timeout is good.  If she fails to follow it, I put physical distance between her and me, different room preferable.  Unfortunately you were in a moving car, with her driving (I try to drive most of the time, so I am in control of the vehicle, and my keys are in my pocket away from her).  I also use "I" words, and validate how she is feeling, without focusing on the facts which may or may not be relevant to her feelings.  You are learning about her 'power plays', it is a PITA to learn them, and then compensate for them when you should not have to.


Fast forward a few days and now she’s called her parents, my parents, her 3 closest friends, the new counselor that we had to move to because she split on the last one, all to make sure they’re in the know on how bad I am.

Even though you feel attacked and are being defensive, let her false narrative attacks roll off you.  Focus on her feelings, validate those feelings.  Also do damage control with her parents and friends, in a cool calm voice, state your version of facts, and offer them if they have questions to ask.  Her parents likely have an idea on how difficult she can be.  Might be new to her friends as she only lashes out at those she loves.


Clearly I’m just not cut out for caring for her fear and anger without standing up against the attack it always brings on me. I’m just so done with the fight, but there’s no way out. Crap this is an awful way to live life.

This is the bettering board, if you were on the conflicted board, I might validate your statement that I highlighted with a different suggestion.  It does suck being with such a person, and it definitely feels like there is no way out.  I am going to suggest another book, read this one before the other one I mentioned earlier - "Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad

[Pook075]

I think my biggest challenge today is living with the projection of her view of me and my actions, not that I am uncaring or unwilling to work to care for her feelings and emotions. I just struggle to do that with the personal attack that I am under currently all because I went to counseling to help define healthy interactions in our marriage (in both directions), and that counselor attempted to have her accept responsibility for some of the brokenness in the relationship she has 100% dug in to a storyline that labels me: "mentally unhealthy, manipulative, emotionally abusive, physically abusive, deceived, etc."

As I said earlier, I never made it to couples counseling because my wife refused, she saw no reason to even try because she was so positive of her "affirming statements" like I never loved her, I hated her parents, etc.

In counseling, you talk that stuff out and long-term, maybe it's helpful to find new understanding.  But short term, you're digging through the mud and slinging it at each other as both sides essentially say, "I want my viewpoint to be heard and it actually matter."

The "what happened" stuff...she did this, I did that...all of that means nothing.  You mentioned that you're a man of faith and you take it seriously.  What does the Bible say about forgiveness?  It says to forgive others AS we seek forgiveness for our sins.  In other words, God forgives us as we forgive others.  If we don't forgive, God doesn't forgive, because we're not showing repentance.

So how do you deal with the negativity of the past?  You forgive it, and you ask for forgiveness so you guys can move on from it.  Despite everything else you hear, despite all the drama and broken feelings and emotions, it all comes down to saying, "I'm really sorry and I hope you can forgive me.  I forgive you as well and I'm ready to let all of that stuff go."

I did that roughly a year ago with my BPD daughter, and everything changed in an instant.  Fifteen plus years of arguments and hate just vanished, simply because we were both ready to forgive and live in the present.  I'm a religious man as well and as much as I'd love to say, "Look what I did!", ultimately I don't get any of the credit.  This was a God thing and He gets all the glory.

In my wife's case, we talk more frequently now and her absolutes (you never loved me, you hate my parents) are no longer topics of conversation.  She knows I love her (present tense) and she knows that I think the world of her parents.  I've showed that consistently through my actions to the point where she has created a new absolute in her mind...so those arguments are over.  I've also made it very well known that I forgive my wife for everything, all the betrayal and everything before that.  So our relationship is good and we only talk about what's going on in our lives and the kids' life.

Ultimately, we didn't reconcile because my wife is unable to forgive me...or maybe forgive herself.  That doesn't change the fact that her venom is gone and she no longer paints me black, she sees me mostly for who I am.  Our relationship is really good now and hopefully it continues to improve over time as we go our separate ways.

Currently, since she could not get the counselor to 100% buy into her narrative, she is now taking her very manipulated story to others to try and build a consensus against me. I expect some kind of intervention to come my way from them soon. It's honestly such a helpless feeling. She's gone to her mom and brothers and their wives. She's gone to our friends wives, She's gone to my sister and really wants to go to my parents, but they've not allowed her to. She's set a meeting to go to the Pastors at our church. I can't say she has BPD to defend myself, so It's just he said/she said. It's going to tear the family apart and pit my family against hers. Even though there are multiple counselors who have refused to label me a bad guy/the one doing harmful things in the relationship, she can't accept that and she can't leave the marriage, so her only other answer is to think that she can build a consensus to convince me that I'm abusive and must take responsibility for that and change.

All I know to do is stay in counseling and speak the truth I know, good bad and ugly.

Let's stick with the Bible for just another moment- none of us are "good guys".  We're all flawed and saved by grace, through no actions of our own.  That's what makes us "good".

You'll never win he said/she said.  Never.  That's not the goal here at all and that's not the narrative you should be sharing (I mean, with us it's fine....we're here for exactly this kind of stuff.)  With the outside world though, your narrative should be "I love my wife and I want to work on building our relationship moving forward."

If they say, "But did you really do this?"  It's okay to respond no.  Here's where the trap is though.  If you justify yourself, "Okay, here's what happened....she did this, this and this, then I said this and she went ballistic and did this..."  Can you see how your actual goal here of "I love her and want things to improve" is getting pushed further apart by defending what she's saying?

The goal here is not to be "right" and it's not to be seen as a "good man".  If people can't already see those things, then they're not going to see them.  That's not on you and it's not your place to defend every accusation since it only leads to more things to argue about.  My advice is so simple- stop arguing and change the narrative!  I love her and want to move past this stuff.  That's the path towards a better marriage.

I'm not sure if you caught this, but with my wife, I told her 1,000 times that I cared about her and loved her parents...and it did zero bit of good because she didn't believe me.  Once we stopped arguing though and she was actually able to see my actions for what they were, she realized quite clearly that she was wrong.  And as much as I'd love to call her on it sometimes, it will only lead to an argument of however she's justified it in her mind.  It's just not worth it since the past is dead and we can't change it.

My friend, your relationship with your wife is present tense...today.  Stop talking about the past and hoping for victories that mean absolutely nothing.  Change the narrative and focus on tomorrow instead, regardless of what's thrown your way.  Don't defend yourself with words, let your actions do all the talking.  That's the path here for all of us.

[Rocky-Trail]

Happy new year everyone. I hope the absolute best for all of you in 2024.

I wanted to respond and say thank you for your responses and care for me ans I navigate this crazy relationship.  It means a lot, and I’m deeply considering all the good advice. I truly understand the push to focus on the future and that there is nothing to “win” in the past. I see the value and wisdom in your ways of creating more health in your relationships, and in my own. I’m hoping that one day in the near future I’m in a better place to use your kind advice. Today it feels hard to use it 100% of the time because of the active campaign against my character that I’m dealing with.

My current problem is that my wife uses the past as her reasons to act out in rage in the present. Her long list of real and imagined wrongs is always right on the tip of her tongue. She has taken this list to her family, my family, personal friends, our counselors and now our pastors at church. So functionally who I am is up for debate, based on her accounts. I know most are having a hard time believing her, but as a previous counselor of ours told me, “she is very good at telling her story in a convincing way when it’s only her telling it.” She has labeled me as deceived, emotionally abusive and controlling. She is portraying herself as the ultimate victim, and also as the “healthy person” in the relationship. She is using super spiritual terminology. She has also had a very borderline all or nothing relationship with God as well. I’ve watched her “split” on God over and over. But also treat Him as a favorite person. So it’s hard to deal with her spirituality because it’s so on or off, and right now it’s her way of trying to take control of our relationship.

I am under attack now not just in my own home but in every relationship that matters to me. She is not ok with just her personally labeling me, but now needs everyone close to us to agree with her labels of me. So I can’t just let the past be the past and focus on my future. I have to deal with the current attack in order to have a future.

Every resource I’ve read and listened to says that she can be helped if she had some level of understanding of her problem. This is my season for that to either happen or not happen. If I want her to get the help she needs for her own sake, but especially for the sake of my kids and their future families then I have to stand up against the false narratives, and hope that the people that she has chosen to involve in this issue are able to discern some of what’s really going on. This is a relationship that I am not leaving because of my own personal convictions about the value of family and my vows of marriage. However at this time I can’t see loving her as placating her delusions. I can be caring, and even validating of how her feelings affect her, but I can’t go along with the narrative she is using to validate her own feelings and actions, and I certainly can’t let her take absolute control of our lives and everyone else’s views of me. She is very controlling, she has always had to have things 100% her way. If she doesn’t get her way then she sees herself as a victim. She sees this moment as her opportunity to take full control, by getting others to agree with and care for her. Sorry, I just can’t lay down and let her do that. It’s one thing to care for her fear and feelings. It’s an entirely different thing to deal with her need to control our life.

Over the holidays she appeared “manic” to my family. They don’t really know what to say or do, but they are seeing how unstable she currently seems. My wife and I have been virtually separated for a few weeks now because of different family schedules traveling during the holidays and because she has been portraying me as unsafe for her to be alone with. She is returning home tonight and my family has been reaching out to me worried about how things are going to go as she returns. Honestly life is so much easier when she’s not here, but right now I’m having decide how to deal with meetings with counselors and pastors at church to deal with the current state of the relationship, and to deal with them trying to discern what’s going on…