Understanding why they 'withdraw' and the perceived 'cruelty'

[whydoIcare]

Was talking to a friend I have not seen for ages who has retrained as a psychotherapist and talked to him about my experience with my exBPDgf. He told me they are the toughest of patients to get through to and as I was interested lent me a recent psychotherapy book that presents new theories on pathological organisation in borderline patients. The book is called Psychic Retreats, by John Steiner. In essence the argument is that borderlines (amongst some other patients) have learnt to avoid the pain of anxiety by 'retreating' to what he describes as a state of 'psychic retreat.' This is a rigid defense organisation and an idealised haven from the situations they cannot cope with. He notes that patients who have 'retreated' often keep sufficient contact with reality to appear 'normal' whilst evading its most painful aspects. He also notes (and I think this is very true based upon my own experience with the ex) that there are strong sado-masochistic links binding the 'psychic retreat' - to a degree that the patient may exhibit a controlling, bullying tyranny towards those around them, and this can develop a seductive hold on the patient as their 'tyranny' is inwardly idealised. Effectively BPDs become addicted to it, gaining masochistic gratification in the process. My interperatation of this is that they do know they are hurting people around them, and gain masochistic pleasure out of it. ie they hurt others to hurt themselves.  That's my theory, but then again maybe I should just stick to the day job!

[LML70]

It's interesting that you say they hurt others to hurt themselves. My ex always told me her ex (whom she went back to every time we split--we recycled 4 times) was her "Hell" meaning her way of more self sabotage. I was alway threatened by her ex. Now that we are truly over, it is ironic that once again that is where she has ran too. But this time I know it is to hurt me when in reality it is only hurting her. This is truly a sad illness but one I am glad to no longer be influenced by.

[mitti]

I do think they know in one sense they hurt us but I don't think that (at least in my experience) they consciously want to. I wonder, and have talked about this with my uBPDbf, if it could be that they have such low self esteem that they do not feel they deserve to be loved, and so when we still love them in spite of their treatment of us, we fail in their eyes for how could we love them that are unlovable, what does that say about us and then they get angry with us for not living up to their idea of us. So perhaps they sabotage all of their r/s to bring about what they fear, abandonement, because they feel they deserve no better anyway. And when what you fear has already happened you do not need to fear it anymore.

At least in his case he seems to be nicer to people who are very controlling and domineering although with me he has accused me of trying to control him when that is exactly what I am not doing, you know, as they do.

[catnap]

I asked yesterday for another test to be done (in front of me) - she didnt seem happy about the idea, and said we could do it 'in a few days'. I'm not sure why in a few days - again, another one of the things that doesnt add up.

Don't see the point of waiting a few days. Peculiar, but can think of at least one reason:  how to falsify test in front of boyfriend.

[kem]

I do think they know in one sense they hurt us but I don't think that (at least in my experience) they consciously want to. I wonder, and have talked about this with my uBPDbf, if it could be that they have such low self esteem that they do not feel they deserve to be loved, and so when we still love them in spite of their treatment of us, we fail in their eyes for how could we love them that are unlovable, what does that say about us and then they get angry with us for not living up to their idea of us. So perhaps they sabotage all of their r/s to bring about what they fear, abandonement, because they feel they deserve no better anyway. And when what you fear has already happened you do not need to fear it anymore.

At least in his case he seems to be nicer to people who are very controlling and domineering although with me he has accused me of trying to control him when that is exactly what I am not doing, you know, as they do.

mitti, what you mention here makes a lot of sense to me and i can relate to your thoughts.  my exBPDgf would frequently ask me 'how much i love her' and 'why do i love her' and 'why am i so good to her' and 'why do i stay in this relationship'... .and she asked in such a way that was so unsure of herself as if she didn't deserved to be loved.  at least that's how i observed and interpreted it.  in one instance, when i gave her her christmas gift (which was a dress she really liked), she actually said to me she didn't feel she deserved such a nice gift.  so eventually, of course, as many on this board will understand, the more i loved her the more she seemed to push me away.

[once removed]

this reminds me of when my ex would go snooping through my history and messages and things.

she would frequently "find" things that weren't there. i called a girl "missy". somehow, this was clear evidence of flirting. nevermind that this person is actually someone i've never met or ever will meet. nevermind that she herself has called plenty of girls "missy." nevermind the flirting that she herself did.

i would of course, be pissed, whenever she snooped, as im entitled to privacy and demand it. and because i was not guilty of anything. but if you go digging, you're going to find something, real or imagined. in her case it was imagined. and yet i'd have to pay for it, fight about it, etc. i would tell her this. i would also remind her that people flirt. "flirting" can be and is normally harmless. NOT always. not in active practice. but you know, why go digging? she'd get this uncontrollable urge to do so. i can empathize. i snooped on her as well, toward the very very beginning. so i know the feeling. it is kind of masochistic. she'd tell me she did it because it felt so good to go, and to find nothing. WELL THEN WHY CONTINUE TO GO? and i think, again, having experienced it myself, it's a kind of masochistic impulse based on fear.

i also think it's what causes so many of us, after the breakup, to cyber peek at them. it's totally masochistic. we know better. we've all read that whatever we see is meaningless, but it's also going to upset us. so why do we go? that same masochistic impulse.

[ItsAboutTime]

Perceived cruelty would be something we identify through means of our senses, our intuitions. We identify it by small nuances in their tone or mannerism. But real cruelty is right out there, plain as the nose on our faces, there is no question about it.  I never perceived or wondered if my xBPDbf was cruel. It was clear, blatant and downright brutal at times.

But! He most certainly DID have his own perception of the things he said. He told me it was true and I deserved it. I'd asked him how he could say things so cruel and hurtful to someone he supposedly loved?

He told me that he's heard all those things said to him from when he was very little, and it doesn't bother him at all to hear them for himself, it doesn't hurt at all. He could never understand why it upset me so much, it puzzled him why I couldn't let it roll off my back like water off a duck.

I found that to be very dysfunctional thinking and that's when I began to get answers online through information about BPD. I knew that he was emotionally rejected by his mother and she was very hard on him all his life. She let him know from a very early age that he most certainly was not wanted. He'd created a self-defensive wall against it in order to survive and rise above it, an emotional shield.

Understanding the basis of his mental dysfunction and BPD didn't help our relationship. He will never admit how messed up his mind was. He did tell me that at 16 he contemplated suicide but that he worked it out alone and decided he wanted to live, to be something good for others, something he never had.

It's such a complex disorder, one would have to be super-human to be able to deal with a BPD. I was with him 3 years and we are now 'just friends', no more than that. I have no hold on him, nor he with me. Neither of us can have more than that together.

[whitedoe]

... .It's such a complex disorder, one would have to be super-human to be able to deal with a BPD. I was with him 3 years and we are now 'just friends', no more than that. I have no hold on him, nor he with me. Neither of us can have more than that together.

IAT, how did you manage to get to the point of being "just friends"? How wonderful... .just can't figure out how to get there?

[AlexDP]

I don't intend to be hurtful, but she had an internet relationship with her ex. I would love to be friends with my ex as well, but how on Earth would she cope with me having a life that doesn't revolve around her? Truth is, she probably wouldn't cope at all and try to inflict pain on me.

[ItsAboutTime]

IAT, how did you manage to get to the point of being "just friends"? How wonderful... .just can't figure out how to get there?

Posted on: Yesterday at 08:57:56 PM

Po

It wasn't easy to get to that point, it took months of talking and clearing the air from the past in order for us to reach an amicable solution. I had been total NC for a month before he contacted me and told me that he didn't want it that way, he still wanted to keep me as a friend. At first, I adamantly said 'no' to being put into the 'friend-zone'. Neither of us was happy being totally and abruptly out of each others lives. We had a lot of common interests and the same sense of humor. We just enjoyed talking with each other.

He made it clear to me that I didn't own his life, that I had no say in who he sees, where he goes and who he becomes friends with. I accepted that with the same conditions for him. It's been two months with this understanding and it seems to work for both of us. I have accepted the fact we'll never be anything more than friends and I'm okay with that. Now my life isn't tied to his. We see each other or talk on messenger when either of us feels like doing that without any commitment or promises. There's no mention of love and there's nothing more there than an understanding of how it will always be.

Now, if he starts irritating me with his attitude or poor choice of words, I tell him to 'shut up, go away, see you later' and I leave. The next day it's forgotten and he's behaving like a friend again.

[whitedoe]

IAT, how did you manage to get to the point of being "just friends"? How wonderful... .just can't figure out how to get there?

Posted on: Yesterday at 08:57:56 PM

Po

It wasn't easy to get to that point, it took months of talking and clearing the air from the past in order for us to reach an amicable solution. I had been total NC for a month before he contacted me and told me that he didn't want it that way, he still wanted to keep me as a friend. At first, I adamantly said 'no' to being put into the 'friend-zone'. Neither of us was happy being totally and abruptly out of each others lives. We had a lot of common interests and the same sense of humor. We just enjoyed talking with each other.

He made it clear to me that I didn't own his life, that I had no say in who he sees, where he goes and who he becomes friends with. I accepted that with the same conditions for him. It's been two months with this understanding and it seems to work for both of us. I have accepted the fact we'll never be anything more than friends and I'm okay with that. Now my life isn't tied to his. We see each other or talk on messenger when either of us feels like doing that without any commitment or promises. There's no mention of love and there's nothing more there than an understanding of how it will always be.

Now, if he starts irritating me with his attitude or poor choice of words, I tell him to 'shut up, go away, see you later' and I leave. The next day it's forgotten and he's behaving like a friend again.

This is amazing to me... .My exbf seems to never want to hear from me again... .It was like "snap", no more love, no more friendship, I no longer exist? Aghh... .I will never get this insanity!

[tuliplover]

I'm really struggling right now. The rollercoaster ride has taken a huge toll on me psychologically.

I don't understand how one day he wants me around then the next day he doesn't. He sets certain rules, which I try to follow and then he breaks them by calling... .and it's ALWAYS the day I wake up and tell myself I really don't care if I hear from him again. I swear he senses my attitude change! This relationship has been on/off for 19 months, and he's never once taken any responsibility for his actions but blames me for everything when he wants to be away then when he misses me he comes back and is a sweet as can be telling me how loving and supportive I am. At christmas he gave me the most beautiful gift I've ever received, something he designed himself and the broke up with me three weeks later, ultimately telling me the gift didn't really mean anything. I'm devastated by all this.

[wastedlife]

HI,

withdrawl is a replica of when they say they need space, and that is time they use for finding your

substitute and cheating on you aswell, once over they are back and the cruelty is a back-projection to their self-hatred for what they did.

wl

[lucnatmar]

I think a lot of their motivation is out of simple "fear".  Fear of facing who they really are, fear of facing what the truth really is (which is why so many BPD's redifine the truth to meet their own needs).  I don't think their first goal is to hurt people, but I do believe most know when they are lying, falsely accussing and causing harm, but they still continue their behavior.

It is really a matter of choice for them and they take the one that they have learned works best for them; which is to deflect all responsbility on to someone else and not be in a position to face the pain of dealing with who they really are.  Either way they create pain, but the latter is easier for them to deal with.  My wife not only is an expert at this, she has also latched on to religion as part of her shield.  Everything she does is "justfied" because she is "righteous" and putting her fingers in my face and calling me the devil (in front of our kids) is her taking that shield and protecting herself to the nth degree.

I would think, some of the scariest BPD's you will ever encounter, are the ones that have latched onto religion as a means to justify their behavior.

[whitedoe]

I'm really struggling right now. The rollercoaster ride has taken a huge toll on me psychologically.

I don't understand how one day he wants me around then the next day he doesn't. He sets certain rules, which I try to follow and then he breaks them by calling... .and it's ALWAYS the day I wake up and tell myself I really don't care if I hear from him again. I swear he senses my attitude change! This relationship has been on/off for 19 months, and he's never once taken any responsibility for his actions but blames me for everything when he wants to be away then when he misses me he comes back and is a sweet as can be telling me how loving and supportive I am. At christmas he gave me the most beautiful gift I've ever received, something he designed himself and the broke up with me three weeks later, ultimately telling me the gift didn't really mean anything. I'm devastated by all this.

Ohhh, I feel your pain, TL... .I have been on the "rollercoaster" of hurt and incredible confusion... .I can only imagine how hurtful it was to receive something so beautiful and heartfelt at Christmas only to have him "take it all back" with his cruelty and excruciating insensitivity... .Aghh, I know that place of pain only too well...

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…  his discussions became increasingly illogical and “facts” distorted… he began telling me things that I never said or felt – it was utter madness?

He loved me and "lived to be with me" one day and the next, he’d have yet another “dark mood” where he’d “withdraw” from me and/or blurt out the most cruel things?... .I felt “sick inside” all the time never knowing “which” man would surface?

I kept “clinging to the memories of our amazing beginnings, the talks, incredible lovemaking, and the beautiful poems he wrote to me… the plans for our future together… I had not yet even heard the term “BPD” or “NPD”… not until he came down to celebrate Valentine’s Day with me (also our 2 year anniversary) and immediately blurted out to me upon entering my house that “he wanted to end our relationship and see other women”?  This was completely out of nowhere and I was left absolutely devastated, drowning in confusion and despair…

Since then, I’ve learned that my exbf is seriously mentally ill (BPD and very likely also NPD) and this site has helped me begin my healing journey…. The support out here is genuine and so caring… Please know that you are not alone, TL… keep posting and read all that you can on this site… We’ll “heal” together!

[ItsAboutTime]

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…

My exBPDbf would say things like "I don't care" or "it doesn't matter either way" when we spoke of breaking up. I realized much later that he really did care, but not in a romantic way anymore, not the way that I cared. He wanted me as a friend because we had a lot in common. He didn't want me in a romantic way anymore. All of his words and actions proved to me over and over again that he really didn't care about losing me in a romantic way. Once they've separated from you emotionally there's no 'rekindling' that's possible. If we pressure them to renew that romantic relationship they recoil and don't want to be anywhere near us, we become pathetic to them and they start hating us for that. I knew that I didn't want to feel pathetic, I was losing self-respect. Once I came to terms with the 'neutrality' of the newly formed relationship, I became more at ease with the friendship.

They care, they really do, but they don't want YOU to think they care for you in a romantic-love way anymore. You have to force ambivalence upon yourself just as they have and separate emotionally. We can't all do that. Mine still wanted a friendship, and after months of struggling with the relationship changing in this way, I did accept it and had to realize it's just not the same as it was, and will never be that way every again.

[AlexDP]

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…

My exBPDbf would say things like "I don't care" or "it doesn't matter either way" when we spoke of breaking up. I realized much later that he really did care, but not in a romantic way anymore, not the way that I cared. He wanted me as a friend because we had a lot in common. He didn't want me in a romantic way anymore. All of his words and actions proved to me over and over again that he really didn't care about losing me in a romantic way. Once they've separated from you emotionally there's no 'rekindling' that's possible. If we pressure them to renew that romantic relationship they recoil and don't want to be anywhere near us, we become pathetic to them and they start hating us for that. I knew that I didn't want to feel pathetic, I was losing self-respect. Once I came to terms with the 'neutrality' of the newly formed relationship, I became more at ease with the friendship.

They care, they really do, but they don't want YOU to think they care for you in a romantic-love way anymore. You have to force ambivalence upon yourself just as they have and separate emotionally. We can't all do that. Mine still wanted a friendship, and after months of struggling with the relationship changing in this way, I did accept it and had to realize it's just not the same as it was, and will never be that way every again.

That doesn't even sound like BPD to be frank.

[LightAtTheEndOfTheTunnel]

Ohhh, I feel your pain, TL... .I have been on the "rollercoaster" of hurt and incredible confusion... .I can only imagine how hurtful it was to receive something so beautiful and heartfelt at Christmas only to have him "take it all back" with his cruelty and excruciating insensitivity... .Aghh, I know that place of pain only too well...

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…  his discussions became increasingly illogical and “facts” distorted… he began telling me things that I never said or felt – it was utter madness?

He loved me and "lived to be with me" one day and the next, he’d have yet another “dark mood” where he’d “withdraw” from me and/or blurt out the most cruel things?... .I felt “sick inside” all the time never knowing “which” man would surface?

I kept “clinging to the memories of our amazing beginnings, the talks, incredible lovemaking, and the beautiful poems he wrote to me… the plans for our future together… I had not yet even heard the term “BPD” or “NPD”… not until he came down to celebrate Valentine’s Day with me (also our 2 year anniversary) and immediately blurted out to me upon entering my house that “he wanted to end our relationship and see other women”?  This was completely out of nowhere and I was left absolutely devastated, drowning in confusion and despair…

Since then, I’ve learned that my exbf is seriously mentally ill (BPD and very likely also NPD) and this site has helped me begin my healing journey…. The support out here is genuine and so caring… Please know that you are not alone, TL… keep posting and read all that you can on this site… We’ll “heal” together![/quote]
White Doe i feel that pain and i still find it remarkable how all of our experiences are so similar... .yes they may be different people but honestly it sounds to me exactly what i have been experiencing ... .

[ItsAboutTime]

That doesn't even sound like BPD to be frank.

After researching BPD for over a year before we split up, and documenting conversations, I am positive he was BPD. Even the trauma of his childhood pointed to the reason for it. The history of his many broken relationships. His lack of empathy. His mirroring, his painting me white, then black. So many things, too many to even go back to think of. Yes, he is BPD, a very high functioning one.

[C12P21]

This is an interesting thread and one I will come back to and read closely and think about.

There are a few dynamics that go on with the reasons for cruelty and there are no clear answers.

The garden variety abusing, controlling person that lacks interspection about their behavior will abuse due to a sense of entitlement. S/he believes justified to hurt another "object" because this object has dissapointed their illusion of "perfect" love. Although this sounds like NPD-it isn't unless other components of NPD manifest themselves in the persons life. They know they are hurting another-they just don't care.

A sociopath enjoys hurting others as a means of feeling they have "won". It is a sense of accomplishment for them-to hurt an empathetic person that possesses the one thing they will never possess- a conscience.

You can usually tell the difference between the disordered, the dysfunctional and the those of us slogging along trying to figure it all out.

Empathetic people think about their behavior and apoligize-because they realize they have injured another person. They realize this because they are in touch with themselves and understand themselves.  

[AlexDP]

That doesn't even sound like BPD to be frank.

After researching BPD for over a year before we split up, and documenting conversations, I am positive he was BPD. Even the trauma of his childhood pointed to the reason for it. The history of his many broken relationships. His lack of empathy. His mirroring, his painting me white, then black. So many things, too many to even go back to think of. Yes, he is BPD, a very high functioning one.

Yes, I know and I am not doubting your diagnosis of him. I'm just saying that, this is relatively normal behaviour. I have gotten other ex's to grow cold towards me and I have grown cold towards them if either one of us still had romantic feelings.

I also don't really understand what you mean when you say your relationship is now a platonic one. From what I understand you never met this man in real life? I'm not grilling you, I'm asking because I'd like a friendship with my BPD ex, but there are considerable difficulties in pursuing one.

[C12P21]

have gotten other ex's to grow cold towards me and I have grown cold towards them if either one of us still had romantic feelings.

Passions may die down, or the relationship may change and evolve over time. A person with emotional integrity realizes that their feelings have changed-and are honest about those feelings without verbally abusing or controlling or blaming another person. Respectfully- you exit the r/s and can remain friends if the r/s has certain elements that can sustain friendship. It is up to the exiting partner to take the responsibility for exiting with compassion, closure and kindness.

A responsible person owns up to their feelings and doesn't gain power in behaving spitefully, cruelly, or indifferently to anothers feelings, and allows the partner to discuss their feelings.

A sexual r/s that "dies" down-is one that may never have evolved into friendship or intimacy-it is based in desire-something that cannot sustain the r/s in the long run. The tricky part of a sexual r/s is the bonding that ocurrs for the couple-the hormones released in the brain are the same hormones released during breastfeeding infants-hence attachment. Women experience this more strongly than men... at least research states this.

My point is- a balanced person figures out their feelings, behavior and actions and takes ownership of them

[ve01603]

I do think they know in one sense they hurt us but I don't think that (at least in my experience) they consciously want to. I wonder, and have talked about this with my uBPDbf, if it could be that they have such low self esteem that they do not feel they deserve to be loved, and so when we still love them in spite of their treatment of us, we fail in their eyes for how could we love them that are unlovable, what does that say about us and then they get angry with us for not living up to their idea of us. So perhaps they sabotage all of their r/s to bring about what they fear, abandonement, because they feel they deserve no better anyway. And when what you fear has already happened you do not need to fear it anymore.

At least in his case he seems to be nicer to people who are very controlling and domineering although with me he has accused me of trying to control him when that is exactly what I am not doing, you know, as they do.

Same.

[ve01603]

I do think they know in one sense they hurt us but I don't think that (at least in my experience) they consciously want to. I wonder, and have talked about this with my uBPDbf, if it could be that they have such low self esteem that they do not feel they deserve to be loved, and so when we still love them in spite of their treatment of us, we fail in their eyes for how could we love them that are unlovable, what does that say about us and then they get angry with us for not living up to their idea of us. So perhaps they sabotage all of their r/s to bring about what they fear, abandonement, because they feel they deserve no better anyway. And when what you fear has already happened you do not need to fear it anymore.

At least in his case he seems to be nicer to people who are very controlling and domineering although with me he has accused me of trying to control him when that is exactly what I am not doing, you know, as they do.

mitti, what you mention here makes a lot of sense to me and i can relate to your thoughts.  my exBPDgf would frequently ask me 'how much i love her' and 'why do i love her' and 'why am i so good to her' and 'why do i stay in this relationship'... .and she asked in such a way that was so unsure of herself as if she didn't deserved to be loved.  at least that's how i observed and interpreted it.  in one instance, when i gave her her christmas gift (which was a dress she really liked), she actually said to me she didn't feel she deserved such a nice gift.  so eventually, of course, as many on this board will understand, the more i loved her the more she seemed to push me away.

Yep.

[ve01603]

IAT, how did you manage to get to the point of being "just friends"? How wonderful... .just can't figure out how to get there?

Posted on: Yesterday at 08:57:56 PM

Po

It wasn't easy to get to that point, it took months of talking and clearing the air from the past in order for us to reach an amicable solution. I had been total NC for a month before he contacted me and told me that he didn't want it that way, he still wanted to keep me as a friend. At first, I adamantly said 'no' to being put into the 'friend-zone'. Neither of us was happy being totally and abruptly out of each others lives. We had a lot of common interests and the same sense of humor. We just enjoyed talking with each other.

He made it clear to me that I didn't own his life, that I had no say in who he sees, where he goes and who he becomes friends with. I accepted that with the same conditions for him. It's been two months with this understanding and it seems to work for both of us. I have accepted the fact we'll never be anything more than friends and I'm okay with that. Now my life isn't tied to his. We see each other or talk on messenger when either of us feels like doing that without any commitment or promises. There's no mention of love and there's nothing more there than an understanding of how it will always be.

Now, if he starts irritating me with his attitude or poor choice of words, I tell him to 'shut up, go away, see you later' and I leave. The next day it's forgotten and he's behaving like a friend again.

This is amazing to me... .My exbf seems to never want to hear from me again... .It was like "snap", no more love, no more friendship, I no longer exist? Aghh... .I will never get this insanity!

Same here.

[ve01603]

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…

My exBPDbf would say things like "I don't care" or "it doesn't matter either way" when we spoke of breaking up. I realized much later that he really did care, but not in a romantic way anymore, not the way that I cared. He wanted me as a friend because we had a lot in common. He didn't want me in a romantic way anymore. All of his words and actions proved to me over and over again that he really didn't care about losing me in a romantic way. Once they've separated from you emotionally there's no 'rekindling' that's possible. If we pressure them to renew that romantic relationship they recoil and don't want to be anywhere near us, we become pathetic to them and they start hating us for that. I knew that I didn't want to feel pathetic, I was losing self-respect. Once I came to terms with the 'neutrality' of the newly formed relationship, I became more at ease with the friendship.

They care, they really do, but they don't want YOU to think they care for you in a romantic-love way anymore. You have to force ambivalence upon yourself just as they have and separate emotionally. We can't all do that. Mine still wanted a friendship, and after months of struggling with the relationship changing in this way, I did accept it and had to realize it's just not the same as it was, and will never be that way every again.

I could have written this myself.

[C12P21]

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…  his discussions became increasingly illogical and “facts” distorted… he began telling me things that I never said or felt – it was utter madness?

He loved me and "lived to be with me" one day and the next, he’d have yet another “dark mood” where he’d “withdraw” from me and/or blurt out the most cruel things?... .I felt “sick inside” all the time never knowing “which” man would surface?

Yup... .he pursued me like crazy, discussed our future. Next day-I don't love you as you love me, next week or two-we shared laughs, nothing else.

Very difficult to process.

C

[whitedoe]

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…  his discussions became increasingly illogical and “facts” distorted… he began telling me things that I never said or felt – it was utter madness?

He loved me and "lived to be with me" one day and the next, he’d have yet another “dark mood” where he’d “withdraw” from me and/or blurt out the most cruel things?... .I felt “sick inside” all the time never knowing “which” man would surface?

Yup... .he pursued me like crazy, discussed our future. Next day-I don't love you as you love me, next week or two-we shared laughs, nothing else.

Very difficult to process.

C

I started seeing a therapist in efforts to help me “clean my head out” and recovery from this ordeal... .I just can’t seem to “shake off” the pain and confusion? Yes, too difficult for me to process, C12P21... .And I desperately want and need to get my life back together!

Yes, my exBPD/NPDbf certainly pursued me aggressively... .And the “sick” part of it was that I had never felt “so loved and adored” in my entire life? Aghhh... .I cannot bare to open any of the hundreds of loving emails, notes, texts that he wrote to me. If only I had known about this illness? Maybe I would have seen the red flags and run like crazy?

The insanity of this “mental illness” is excruciating to me ... .the complete lack of any sensitivity, absolutely no empathy, incredible selfishness beyond anything I’ve ever known in an adult human being and... .the total lack of a “conscience”... .this is unfathomable to me... .it’s inhumane... .

And the fact that I loved him so deeply and would have done anything to help him makes me wonder about my own “sanity”?

[ve01603]

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…  his discussions became increasingly illogical and “facts” distorted… he began telling me things that I never said or felt – it was utter madness?

He loved me and "lived to be with me" one day and the next, he’d have yet another “dark mood” where he’d “withdraw” from me and/or blurt out the most cruel things?... .I felt “sick inside” all the time never knowing “which” man would surface?

Yup... .he pursued me like crazy, discussed our future. Next day-I don't love you as you love me, next week or two-we shared laughs, nothing else.

Very difficult to process.

C

I started seeing a therapist in efforts to help me “clean my head out” and recovery from this ordeal... .I just can’t seem to “shake off” the pain and confusion? Yes, too difficult for me to process, C12P21... .And I desperately want and need to get my life back together!

Yes, my exBPD/NPDbf certainly pursued me aggressively... .And the “sick” part of it was that I had never felt “so loved and adored” in my entire life? Aghhh... .I cannot bare to open any of the hundreds of loving emails, notes, texts that he wrote to me. If only I had known about this illness? Maybe I would have seen the red flags and run like crazy?

The insanity of this “mental illness” is excruciating to me ... .the complete lack of any sensitivity, absolutely no empathy, incredible selfishness beyond anything I’ve ever known in an adult human being and... .the total lack of a “conscience”... .this is unfathomable to me... .it’s inhumane... .

And the fact that I loved him so deeply and would have done anything to help him makes me wonder about my own “sanity”?

You're not alone.  I did it too.

[C12P21]

it’s inhumane...

You might try reading the book "The Sociopath Next Door"- and the book "Narcissistic Lovers", it might help you to understand what you have experienced.

Yes, my exBPD/NPDbf certainly pursued me aggressively... .And the “sick” part of it was that I had never felt “so loved and adored” in my entire life? Aghhh... .I cannot bare to open any of the hundreds of loving emails, notes, texts that he wrote to me. If only I had known about this illness? Maybe I would have seen the red flags and run like crazy?

The human drive to connect is what we are hard wired to do. Survival as a species depends on this drive. As a little girl how often were you exposed to stories of the prince arriving to rescue the princess, or beauty and the beast. And if you are Native American-look at all of the stories handed down to us by the story tellers in our communities and beliefs in our communities about listening with our heart, head and spirit?

So we find someone or they find us-and our unspoken needs are apparent. They make pathways inside our minds, our hearts, our spirits.And they earn our trust. If there are childhood wounds that need healing, they begin to heal and for the first time in our lives, we feel adored and loved. This is what r/s do-they do heal the child within us. When you know this, you become more mindful of the daily interactions of your loved one, you begin to understand what it is you need and how to ask for this need to be met. This is a part of a healthy r/s. We are not hardwired to figure it out for ourselves, to heal our own pain. Look at this website, we are a connected community trying to help each other heal.

But somewhere inside the disordered mind-they know enough to know how to pretend to return love, they act out the stages of relationships, they reciprocate our feelings, they display tenderness and then (depending on the disorder or emotional disturbance) they stop. They are gone. And they are cruel sometimes.

You are not at fault. BPD's, NPD's and Sociopaths are extremely hard to decipher, even LMHC are often times fooled by them. This was not your fault, you did not deserve this and you are not defective. How could have possibly known about red flags-until you were exposed to and experienced this ordeal.

Sometimes the high they get is in the harm they create for others-they like the power they feel over listening to another cry. And yes, those tender endearments were written in order to suck you in and spin you up... it is all part and part of the plan and thrill-if they are a sociopath.

If they are a narcissist the cruelty is usually not intentional-they have devalued you and they want you gone. If you no longer love them, your hate will do just fine-they want that in order to feel powerful and alive.

If they are a garden variety controlling, angry person-they are PO'd because you are not the elusive, fantasy woman of their dreams. Fantasy girl is always available, charming, sexy, does exactly the right thing at the right time, and fulfills his every whim and desire. He honestly believes at the beginning of the r/s you are the one-and when you are not a card board cut out from his imagination-he is frustrated and with a sense of entitlement-he cuts you down and out.

You are left to whither in your sadness because you have feelings, you are hard wired to connect, because someone seduced you with their false love and because you feel love for this person. You will be sad and you will suffer-but if you can hold on and work through this pain with a T, or by reading, or this forum-you will discover something far more beautiful than your love for this man.

You will find that your value is precious-your body is precious-and your heart is connected to your body. You will be more cautious to share yourself in any way with another person because your heart, mind and spirit are gifts-even your thoughts are words and unspoken dreams that are powerful. You will only want to share your power with someone trustworthy. Someone that has to earn that trust slowly and surely with demonstrated behavior over time.

There is nothing wrong with you. You are just right-don't let anyone tell you different.

C