Facing the reality of it all... HIGHLY contested divorce in process...

[ForeverDad]

Son's soccer tomorrow cancelled due to weather.

I sent her this:

Since soccer was cancelled, I would like to take s2.5 to breakfast tomorrow.  Can he and I hang out from 7:30 to 8:30 or 9a?  We will just follow our former routine of chocolate milk/coffee, breakfast burritos/potatoes, and looking for trains. 

INSTANT no, wouldn't respond when I asked if there was any reason why... . 

If you had alternate weekends and this wasn't your weekend, she'd be within her rights to say no.  As I understand the current situation, so far you do get, or have been offered, a slice of each weekend?  This is what has to end, you asking and her responding in arbitrary dictator mode.  A deal will only solidify her control, IMO only a judge can get past her sense that you're a parent only at her conditional whims.

There's a conference in a couple days?  I would not go in prepared to beg and plead with her.  It doesn't make sense to beg and plead for crumbs.  Determine a nice schedule for you and both children.  Did you find out what is considered a reasonable schedule for a minority time parent in your area?  That was priority one this week.  I've already posted a typical example published in my area.  Your call but I'd suggest not even entertaining anything less.  Your lawyer can look at her lawyer and state, "You know this is a typical schedule.  Tell your client this is a typical and reasonable schedule and that her prior offers, as much as we appreciate her making offers, were unreasonable and if you don't accept this schedule then we'll see what the judge orders.  This offer is made in hopes we can both reduce the conflict and reduce the costs of the divorce, if not accepted it will be withdrawn and my client will seek an even more appropriate schedule based on the fact that your client cannot reasonably share the parenting of the children and that until now she has been obstructing his reasonable parenting."

Is that 'pie in the sky' dreaming, me wishing my lawyer had been a bit more assertive and less inclined to talk nice and seek deals?  Maybe so.  Your call.

If it ends up being mostly about the financials, beware of gifting too much.  Odds are she will keep coming back for more if she sees you willing to negotiate.  You think give and take.  PwBPD/NPD see these sessions as ways to get and the other to give.  That's some skewed perception of negotiation.  Even if she agrees to something reasonable now, even that is iffy, she's probably thinking that later on she can get keep getting a little more each time she makes a new demand.

Generally it's good to start with the easiest issues.  So likely custody is left to last and likely it will be an impasse.  Remember, you don't have to accept a bad deal.  It's always possible that the court will order lousy terms and conditions and there's little you can do about that.  But you can always walk away from predictably bad offers.  If you feel you have to settle on Monday, then you are already at great disadvantage.  If you are uncomfortable with any proposed deal, take a few days to ponder it, you have that right.  I've learned the hard way that if I'm uncomfortable when pressured to buy something, I'll later regret it.

A Guardian ad Litem (GAL) for your children is probably a wise step, but try to get a perceptive one.  You have a lawyer, your wife has a lawyer, each lawyer though is paid to represent their client, nothing more.  So yes your children would likely benefit from having someone represent them.

I don't know what benefit a Psych Eval is in your area, in mine it didn't mean much.  In any case they often don't indicate how the children would be affected in the years to come.  That's why a Custody Evaluation is so crucial, it's an in depth look at the parents as well as their parenting.  It's especially important to get an unbiased, experienced and perceptive professional.

[jmrslc]

There's a conference in a couple days?

The initial status conference is tomorrow afternoon.  I have the boys today.  Rainy day, so we are playing inside.  My oldest is acting out quite a bit .

I have been able to maintain MINIMAL dialogue with her around the boys (e.g. what time did s8months eat last, etc.).

Still, challenging. 

I am also trying to get the house packed (not working on that today since I have the boys -- I likely won't post anymore until tonight unless something happens).

Moving to 1000sqft is going to be interesting for me.  I guess it is good she took almost everything.  On a positive note, s2.5 wanted to ride his bike (pouring rain outside).  Main floor is almost entirely empty and hardwoods with three separate loops .  We are riding inside, LOL.

[livednlearned]

Moving to 1000sqft is going to be interesting for me.  I guess it is good she took almost everything.  On a positive note, s2.5 wanted to ride his bike (pouring rain outside).  Main floor is almost entirely empty and hardwoods with three separate loops .  We are riding inside, LOL.

I moved into a small apartment with S12 (he was 9 at the time). We didn't have much furniture, and for a while things were so different and we both really got into it. We had "picnics" on the floor, built forts everywhere, watched movies from the futon. It felt like a big slumber party there for a while. S12 still talks about our 1.5 years there with nostalgia.

Just discovering what your own, real r/s with your kids is like, without your pwBPD there -- that's the best gift I ever received. I hope the same happens for you.

[jmrslc]

Moving to 1000sqft is going to be interesting for me.  I guess it is good she took almost everything.  On a positive note, s2.5 wanted to ride his bike (pouring rain outside).  Main floor is almost entirely empty and hardwoods with three separate loops .  We are riding inside, LOL.

I moved into a small apartment with S12 (he was 9 at the time). We didn't have much furniture, and for a while things were so different and we both really got into it. We had "picnics" on the floor, built forts everywhere, watched movies from the futon. It felt like a big slumber party there for a while. S12 still talks about our 1.5 years there with nostalgia.

Just discovering what your own, real r/s with your kids is like, without your pwBPD there -- that's the best gift I ever received. I hope the same happens for you.

Thank you for that.  I think that's what I needed today.

J

[momtara]

I think it's sweet that you wanted to hang out and look for trains.  I'm a big train fan.  Hang in there.  Your son needs you in his life!   

[jmrslc]

So initial status conference.  She is willing to accept the compromise on maintenance and child support, but still no overnights.  I tell my L that we need to let the judge decide then.  We go in for the status conference, and ex says she is still nursing which is why no overnights.  The clerk says "you are still nursing the s2.5?" she says no.  They fast track the temp orders hearing for the 4th.  The dockets are fairly clear, so my L hopes we get permanent orders by end of Nov.  New bill would hurt me on long-term maintenance apparently if this draws out past Jan 1.  I still am not willing to "give in" on my parenting time & overnights just to save a little money.  That, and I am following the advice here in that the judge likely won't do any worse than her "generous" offer.

She was a royal PITA at my son's swim practice this afternoon, and keeps throwing random jabs ALL THE TIME.

Tomorrow is her birthday.  I am trying to decide if I even acknowledge it (e.g. happy bday text).

Thoughts?

-J

[jmrslc]

Forgot to mention, it was specifically called out for the 1hr temp orders hearing that the points of contention are maintenance, child support, and overnights.  We have already documented that we are not far off on the $$ items.  When the clerk clarified overnights for the older son, she did it with a sort of "seriously" undertone that even my stbx caught.  She left the room in tears.

My L feels like we simply cannot do worse than what she is offering, and it sounds like stbx might be starting to see it too... .

[ForeverDad]

To the judge, your lawyer, her lawyer, her, etc:  "Nursing?  That's great!  Just express your milk (as many working and separated mothers do), refrigerate it and send along the bottles of milk so I can feed it to our child while with me."

I am an advocate for breastfeeding but come on, get real.  She sees nursing as her ace in the hole, her "gotcha!"  You need to show that millions of working mothers do that all the time, day in, day out.  It's called expressing the milk.  There are even breast pumps sold for that very purpose.  Even if she claims "it won't work for me!" she can still breastfeed when your near-toddler is with her and you can bottle feed when the children are with you.  No. Big. Deal.  Her claims are a bunch of hooey and the sole purpose is to obstruct your parenting, not for the children.  How can I say that?  Or else she would be proactively enabling your parenting at other times.

There is an entire breast pump and supplies industry that exists for this very reason.  Hmm... .stay silent with her concerning this issue for now, then at the hearing when she claims she simply has to breast feed all the time day and night, then pull out a breast pump starter box (ta da!) and say you have the solution, you'll provide her with it so there is no reason left to even potentially restrict your parenting time.  That should not only deflate her claim but also raise an eyebrow with the judge when the judge perceives you're a Problem Solver.  (However don't open the package in case it is refused and gets returned.)

I still strongly resist the idea that the children get separated.  There is no "need" for separation.  (Children 3 and over may have fewer visits but that may not mean it is basis to totally disconnect your parenting of each child into separate visits.

Keep in touch with that other lawyer, his experienced impressions, strategies and advice will likely help your case.

[jmrslc]

To the judge, your lawyer, her lawyer, her, etc:  "Nursing?  That's great!  Just express your milk (as many working and separated mothers do), refrigerate it and send along the bottles of milk so I can feed it to our child while with me."

FYI -

She was pumping and working full-time (swing shifts) four nights a week.  I would put the kids down AND get them up due to her arriving home between 11p and 2a.

[jmrslc]

Tomorrow is her birthday.  I am trying to decide if I even acknowledge it (e.g. happy bday text).

Thoughts?

-J

Do I send her a Happy Birthday txt?

[Waddams]

Do I send her a Happy Birthday txt?

I wouldn't.  You're trying to establish emotional distance for your own healing and growth.  I'd not engage with her about anything unless it had to do with finances or the kids.

[ForeverDad]

This is one of those cases... .Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  It's an emotional trigger, more for her than for you, and it seldom ends well with someone whose emotions are easily triggered.  So just best to set it aside as unworkable and see it as one small step toward distancing yourself and setting your own boundaries.  It's possible she contacts you nicely, if so you can respond positively without getting enmeshed.  It's another situation where you can't Win, not if she won't allow it.

[ForeverDad]

To the judge, your lawyer, her lawyer, her, etc:  "Nursing?  That's great!  Just express your milk (as many working and separated mothers do), refrigerate it and send along the bottles of milk so I can feed it to our child while with me."

FYI -

She was pumping and working full-time (swing shifts) four nights a week.  I would put the kids down AND get them up due to her arriving home between 11p and 2a.

There's your answer... .she was doing it before for her work, so she can do it again for your parenting time.   Of course she won't volunteer that in court so you'll have to be sure it gets mentioned and highlighted.  Remember, she's counting on swaying the court with emotional claims of Mother Has To Nurse The Hungry Little Babies.  You have to combat her emotional claims with facts.  She's not required to tell the whole truth, that's your obligation and challenge.  Don't expect the court to do your work for you, you need to be proactive and assertive yet respectful to the court.

One thing to remember, I've gotten the impression in my cases and hearing about others that the court tries to deal with as few issues and requests as possible.  That's not good in our high conflict cases.  In my initial hearing I never spoke, per lawyer's advice.  I look back and realize it's because he didn't want me to say something that would sabotage my own case.  However, in our cases we have to get at least some information out there before the court.  I recall one hearing I arrived with a list of 11 items to fix.  We only addressed about 3 of them.  It was so frustrating especially considering that I had grouped them by topic and not by priority.  So do make a list, make sure you have at least one copy in priority order.  Give a copy to your lawyer so there's no confusion about your priorities, your arguments to support you and expose your wife's claims.  Your lawyer will have her own priorities but maybe she'll take note of yours.

[jmrslc]

To the judge, your lawyer, her lawyer, her, etc:  "Nursing?  That's great!  Just express your milk (as many working and separated mothers do), refrigerate it and send along the bottles of milk so I can feed it to our child while with me."

FYI -

She was pumping and working full-time (swing shifts) four nights a week.  I would put the kids down AND get them up due to her arriving home between 11p and 2a.

There's your answer... .she was doing it before for her work, so she can do it again for your parenting time.   Of course she won't volunteer that in court so you'll have to be sure it gets mentioned and highlighted.  Remember, she's counting on swaying the court with emotional claims of Mother Has To Nurse The Hungry Little Babies.  You have to combat her emotional claims with facts.  She's not required to tell the whole truth, that's your obligation and challenge.  Don't expect the court to do your work for you, you need to be proactive and assertive yet respectful to the court.

One thing to remember, I've gotten the impression in my cases and hearing about others that the court tries to deal with as few issues and requests as possible.  That's not good in our high conflict cases.  In my initial hearing I never spoke, per lawyer's advice.  I look back and realize it's because he didn't want me to say something that would sabotage my own case.  However, in our cases we have to get at least some information out there before the court.  I recall one hearing I arrived with a list of 11 items to fix.  We only addressed about 3 of them.  It was so frustrating especially considering that I had grouped them by topic and not by priority.  So do make a list, make sure you have at least one copy in priority order.  Give a copy to your lawyer so there's no confusion about your priorities, your arguments to support you and expose your wife's claims.  Your lawyer will have her own priorities but maybe she'll take note of yours.

ForeverDad:

For a 1hr temporary hours hearing (primarily for child support, temporary maintenance, and parenting time), what should my agenda look like?

Obviously the three aforementioned items.  What else should I try and get addressed during temporary orders?

[ForeverDad]

One thing missing from my order was vacation time, now often called extended time.  My temp order didn't specifically mention vacations, probably because a temp order isn't expected to last long.  No surprise around here, mine lasted two years.  Fortunately the court had a guideline schedule but I was unclear whether it applied in temp orders.  My lawyer said to go on vacation anyway, so I gave her notice of a two week vacation.  Naturally, when I picked son up for my weekend which started the vacation she said "No, I don't give permission, return My Son after the weekend."  I replied, "It's a notice not a request."

Well, I was a few states away when my police called stating ex wanted Her Son back.  I said we're on vacation.  He said okay.  I thought that was that.  Oh, no, it wasn't.  She tried to get an Amber Alert on me.  Later I read the deputy sheriff's report, he worded it well when he told her "it didn't meet the criteria of Amber Alert".  So he passed the blame onto the criteria.  Smart guy.

Well, my lawyer later called me and said she was creating a fuss and would I please call her and let her talk to son every few days?  (Strange, she wasn't even trying to call, I had to call her.  She just wanted an excuse to complain.)  After I got back home my lawyer eventually told me she had raised a ruckus and forced a sheriff's investigation so he promised to have son call her every so often.  Months later I found out that she had filed a formal grievance against the sheriff's investigator and that riled those feathers.

So my advice is to get some of the longer term clauses included in the temp order or else the conflict will continue.  In my case, the court refused/declined to edit the temp order during the entire time.  Even when the initial Custody Evaluator report recommended my ex immediately lose her temp custody, all the judge did was move us on to the next step in the divorce process.

Also, my ex tried to block my access to our child's records.  Before the temp order was over, she had raged at the pediatrician's staff and the doctor had notified her they would "withdraw their services" for our son.  I wasn't notified officially since I didn't have temp custody.  I got a subtle hint that I ought to request their records and that's when I learned of her raging at them.

Also, she started him in therapy and listed me as a suspected child abuser.  So for a year they wouldn't talk to me or release records to me since I was "likely to endanger the health or life of the patient or others".  When a court report a year later showed I wasn't the twisted evil person I was claimed to be - it recommended I get more parenting time - they must have told her they would have to release the files and she promptly changed tunes and said she was fearful of what I might do if I saw what she had input to them.  So then I had to deal with HIPAA privacy claims.  Finally I convinced the court I needed a special court order to see son's records - even though access was already permitted in the temp order pursuant to the state's statutory rules - and I immediately got them.

Frankly, no matter how well you are able to craft a temporary order or even a final order, a disordered and obstructive parent can still reinterpret the orders to suit his/her perceptions and entitlement.  But at least you can try to prevent some of the common tactics.

[jmrslc]

One thing missing from my order was vacation time, now often called extended time.  My temp order didn't specifically mention vacations, probably because a temp order isn't expected to last long.  No surprise around here, mine lasted two years.  Fortunately the court had a guideline schedule but I was unclear whether it applied in temp orders.  My lawyer said to go on vacation anyway, so I gave her notice of a two week vacation.  Naturally, when I picked son up for my weekend which started the vacation she said "No, I don't give permission, return My Son after the weekend."  I replied, "It's a notice not a request."

Well, I was a few states away when my police called stating ex wanted Her Son back.  I said we're on vacation.  He said okay.  I thought that was that.  Oh, no, it wasn't.  She tried to get an Amber Alert on me.  Later I read the deputy sheriff's report, he worded it well when he told her "it didn't meet the criteria of Amber Alert".  So he passed the blame onto the criteria.  Smart guy.

Well, my lawyer later called me and said she was creating a fuss and would I please call her and let her talk to son every few days?  (Strange, she wasn't even trying to call, I had to call her.  She just wanted an excuse to complain.)  After I got back home my lawyer eventually told me she had raised a ruckus and forced a sheriff's investigation so he promised to have son call her every so often.  Months later I found out that she had filed a formal grievance against the sheriff's investigator and that riled those feathers.

So my advice is to get some of the longer term clauses included in the temp order or else the conflict will continue.  In my case, the court refused/declined to edit the temp order during the entire time.  Even when the initial Custody Evaluator report recommended my ex immediately lose her temp custody, all the judge did was move us on to the next step in the divorce process.

Also, my ex tried to block my access to our child's records.  Before the temp order was over, she had raged at the pediatrician's staff and the doctor had notified her they would "withdraw their services" for our son.  I wasn't notified officially since I didn't have temp custody.  I got a subtle hint that I ought to request their records and that's when I learned of her raging at them.

Also, she started him in therapy and listed me as a suspected child abuser.  So for a year they wouldn't talk to me or release records to me since I was "likely to endanger the health or life of the patient or others".  When a court report a year later showed I wasn't the twisted evil person I was claimed to be - it recommended I get more parenting time - they must have told her they would have to release the files and she promptly changed tunes and said she was fearful of what I might do if I saw what she had input to them.  So then I had to deal with HIPAA privacy claims.  Finally I convinced the court I needed a special court order to see son's records - even though access was already permitted in the temp order pursuant to the state's statutory rules - and I immediately got them.

Frankly, no matter how well you are able to craft a temporary order or even a final order, a disordered and obstructive parent can still reinterpret the orders to suit his/her perceptions and entitlement.  But at least you can try to prevent some of the common tactics.

Thanks.   Concerned a bit today as ex's attorney is proposing to my attorney that we stipulate to the child support and maintenance numbers.  I think the numbers are too high, and am concerned as we are RIGHT on the edge of that bill that could force me to pay maintenance for 18 months (vs. zero for a 3.5yr marriage).

I told my L that if we consider that, I want to understand the benefits (if any) from her perspective.  We are meeting with the judge in 2.5 weeks.  Why would we stipulate to this now?  It isn't likely going to be WORSE... .  I also said if we do go this route, I want to include all of the proposed temp orders language that we tried to push through last time (stbxU-BPDNPD refused to sign the proposal she initiated). 

I don't know why we would stipulate to any dollar amount now when it is the opposing atty who is pushing for it and we will be in court in 2.5 weeks... .

[jmrslc]

My favorite... .I get a copy of a bill from when she unilaterally took s2.5 to the doc.  I scan and email it to her.  She tells me to pay it. 

I just sent a copy to my L.  If I am essentially paying her living expenses, child support, alimony, etc., why then am I also paying the bills that she should be paying as primary care giver (with the money I am paying to enable her role as primary care giver)... .<sigh>

[ForeverDad]

Because she tells you to pay it... .and she has every reason to believe you will pay it.

Agreeing to nearly everything the spouse demands doesn't sound like a strategy.

[jmrslc]

Because she tells you to pay it... .and she has every reason to believe you will pay it.

Agreeing to nearly everything the spouse demands doesn't sound like a strategy.

I will put "who pays what" on my open issues discussion for temp orders... .

[livednlearned]

Because she tells you to pay it... .and she has every reason to believe you will pay it.

Agreeing to nearly everything the spouse demands doesn't sound like a strategy.

I will put "who pays what" on my open issues discussion for temp orders... .

This might be a good thread to start --

In my order, it says that S12 is on my insurance. But N/BPDx pays 75% of all medical/dental not covered by insurance. Which means collecting money from him, and pwBPD aren't exactly known for sticking to the rules. So I haven't seen a penny.

You may want to suggest Our Family Wizard. I think there is a way to track expenses like this. That way, if she owes you money, and you end up back in court, you have excellent documentation that she is off doing her own thing, despite what you two agree to in the order.

[jmrslc]

<sigh> tough day.  She is fighting me on the house sale crap, making it difficult.  She was the one who wanted it sold, but this is a way to add stress for me, so now she is dragging her feet at critical times.

Also, some things that were important to me (minor things from my grandfather) seem to have disappeared when she moved out.  She claimed she didn't take them.  Again, another way to hurt me.  I have requested things back, but I am sure I won't get anything back.  She claims to have no idea what I am talking about.

I tried to talk to my son to say goodnight (via phone), and "he didn't want to talk with me".

I am packing & throwing things out, one room at a time.  I have about 1.5 weeks until I move out.  Slow, painful, annoying, frustrating process.  I did get everything "sealed up" that was bringing memories to the surface (at least until I find more stuff as I pack).

All around crappy day .

[SeekerofTruth]

My heart goes out to you.  Easy does it... .I know how they make it difficult.  My mind is reeling a bit as I'm reflecting on multiple chains of unnessary difficulty i endured without knowing what i know now.

Your writing remains crisp and clear.  Remember, self-care, rest, and one day at a time.  That you have the courage and heart to take on "one room at a time" with associated slow, painful, annoying, frustrating processes... .I respect very much. 

[DreamGirl]

Locking up the thread - it's reached the four page limit.

Please feel free to start another one.