Continuing the self respect and open warfare thread

[formflier]

Continuation from

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=299238.50

More later

FF

[Notwendy]

OK I will continue it... .

Verbena asks:
I've never understood how the sex continues after these episodes as if nothing happened.



Well, I wonder how sex is expected after this incident. While I understand the idea of not giving money to someone mistreating you, when it comes to a marriage, certain things have emotional components to it.

Money is one of them. So is sex.

Both can be used as power and currency in a relationship. Both can be used to hurt and control someone else.

If one wants to consider the old fashioned marital agreement, the man provided financial support and in return, got a servant with benefits. Those of us who have been on the dependent side of such a relationship know the deal. The underlying emotion behind " you better act like I want you to or the kids don't eat" to a dependent woman may get you her services. Some people may say, this is OK, we are married, but it isn't OK.

Using money as a boundary enforcer in a marriage has emotional consequences. Yes, it works, but it sends the message to a wife that she is a paid servant. If dependent children are involved, then she may feel she has little choice other than to be one.

[Notwendy]

I think this is the main point to the concern about what happened:

Boundaries are fine, not tolerating being mistreated is fine but we have ways to enforce our boundaries without doing damage to the relationship.

But some things should not be used as weapons, control, or power in an intimate relationship because they are emotionally laden and so using them affects the very heart of the relationship. Some of these are: money, sex, religion.

In military terms: withholding money for dinner at the church for the family- including the children ( who are innocent in this situation ) was a huge weapon. There could be considerable collateral damage when using big guns to fight off annoying missiles.

[formflier]

This conversation is beneficial... .but... my guess is that most guys that might think similarly to me see this as ":)aniel in the Lion's Den"... .chuckle at my plight and move on.

I'm not arguing or mad... .but I do want to point out a HUGE bias here.  And I'll say it plainly.

Bunch of pissed off woment saying after all that "he GOT" sex

Yes you got sex, but as I mentioned before, when one feels powerless in a situation, they can "behave" on the surface just to keep things as stable as possible and keep their feelings to themselves.

Anyone here think it possible I "gave" sex to my wife as an act of love.  Anyone here think that it's possible after all that ... .that my sexual interest in my wife might be kinda low?

Yes... .I didn't have time to give full rundown of what it looked like.

I was very... .VERY... .careful not to push.  Gave very gentle "bids" to her that I was interested and waited at that stage for as long as it took for her so show some interest at moving to the next stage.  

I was tired and would much rather have gone to sleep and not fooled with it at all, but I put on my gameface and did the best I could.  

No effort to be salacious here.

Perhaps 10 min or so of snuggling in bed fully clothed.  She put her hand on my face (her bid)... .I put my hand on hers... .rubbed her arm a bit.  Maybe 5 min of that.  She adjusts a bit closer to me (another bid)... .I hugged her a bit tighter... kept up the arm stroking.

She raises her head makes move to kiss... .I respond.  That goes for a while... .she offers her neck... .I proceed.  Even though she is responding well... .I don't "take the lead" because last think I want her to think is that I am "pushing for sex".

I am open to opinions if this is the right approach.  Note:  I have no memory of ever experiencing the "no speaking thing"... .so I'm a bit in new ground here and making it up as I go.

Finally she is worked up pretty good... .sits up... .takes off her clothes.  I do the same.  Back to necking.  Wait for her to pull me on top.  Wait for her to pull me to start... .you know... .

I made sure to take care of her first... .then had my orgasm.  Was out pretty quick after that.

OK... .need opinions on this too

Before I fall asleep... .she starts laughing uncontrollably.  

I ask (very gently) if she wants to share the thought... . She says that S13 was a "mess" today (meaning awkward).  Backstory:  S13 walked up to dinner table with plate of spaghetti... in the process of trying to sit down... .all the contents of his plate end up on floor.  :)og springs to action.  It was a funny moment.

OK... .realize that was first she spoke in long time.  10 minutes or so of silence.  Cat was making lots of noise eating (crunching) a couple rooms away... .it sounded weird.  My wife says "hey... what's that noise"  It did sound unusual... .so I went to check.  Verified it was the cat.  Back to bed.

She snuggled with me and went to sleep.  

There is lots of new territory.

FF

[formflier]

But some things should not be used as weapons, control, or power in an intimate relationship because they are emotionally laden and so using them affects the very heart of the relationship. Some of these are: money, sex, religion.
 

Just to make sure there is proper perspective.  We had a totally different money situation up until about 3 years ago.  Everything joint.

Then she wanted her own account... .which was fine by me.  It was a precursor to her taking $30k in joint funds and making them her own and then distributing much of those funds to her family for "work they have done" and are owed for. (in their minds)

When I asked if the work was for "profit" a business partnership or if the were "hourly employees"... .the answer came back "they were family" and needed it.

There was an apology (of sorts in writing... she refuses to speak about it) from my wife about this a couple months ago.  No money has been returned.  The continue to make noise about other vast sums they are owed.  Many of the things they say they are owed for are things I didn't want to happen but hey did anyway "as a favor... .don't worry about it... "

So... .discussions about money are toxic in our family.  She has a budget and funds available (way more than enough... .plenty of money to "blow".  She also makes her own money.

If she wants more... .she asks kindly and is thankful.  If she is not happy with outcome... .her remedy is to manage the funds she is responsible for in a better manner.  

FF

[flourdust]

This conversation is beneficial... .but... my guess is that most guys that might think similarly to me see this as ":)aniel in the Lion's Den"... .chuckle at my plight and move on.

Well, I'll add one more data point... .I'm a guy, and I agree with the women who have been posting on your thread.

Frankly, I have no idea what to make of your interaction (including but not limited to the sex) after the incident at church. All I can see is that both of you seem to be pretending it didn't happen. You've been spending a lot of time on here talking about and rationalizing your behavior. We have no insight into your wife's mind, so she might be equally preoccupied with the event ... .or not.

What troubles me most as a father is that you are putting your boundaries and rules ahead of the well-being of your kids. You have made a number of justifications for this, mostly using rationalizations to say that it was your wife who put the kids in the middle of this by not following your rules, thus forcing you to robotically enforce your boundaries.

I have seen this pattern in other incidents you've related. While you've demonstrated that you are willing to put the kids' safety first in extreme circumstances (i.e., the spanking/beating event), you otherwise default to focusing on your interactions with your wife and your boundaries, regardless of the impact on the kids. In most of your stories, the kids come across as barely present pieces of furniture, just passively witnessing whatever hostile dynamic you and your wife are acting out.

This isn't healthy for them, to put it mildly.

As a father with a BPDw (separated and out of the house now, thank God), my biggest struggle was balancing protecting myself vs. protecting my kid. The kid usually won, which meant more stress for me and more bad behavior that I tolerated. It also meant that I recognized that a child has absolutely no choice about whether or not to be exposed to these behaviors, and it's the job of responsible adults to put their needs first.

You need to give some thought to this, and I certainly recommend you raise this issue with your P. I will add a practical note -- if you do end up in any kind of legal or social services entanglement, they will not give a flying fig about your boundaries, your dignity, whether or not you get "respect," etc. They will care about who is taking care of the kids' needs. Right now, that is not you.

[chump]

I'm very interested in how invested a few of the women on this string are in convincing you that you need to change your perspective.  Multiple posts, many bites at the apple, trying to change your mind.  I'm uncomfortable trying too hard to change anyone's mind, because beyond offering my point of view, if they don't come around to my perspective I quickly end up becoming too invested in how another person thinks, feels or acts, and boundaries start to get fuzzy.  I don't think that's healthy.

You're right, FF, to at least one man on this thread, you seem to being ganged up on.  You have articulately laid out your perspective, and pretty gently highlighted how gendered the subject of money, sex, attitude, etc can be, and how loaded.  You have opened yourself to this input which I think all of us respect, and you don't need my help, you're doing fine.

Interesting, I have never heard you describe money as a negotiating tool for power in the relationship.  I heard you draw a boundary around disrespectful behavior.  Your wife has an income, her own bank account, plus a joint account you share.  This isn't some epic power struggle over money, this was a small episode in the larger context of almost constant disrespect, contempt really, being exhibited by your wife, and in front of the children.  You made good faith efforts to lighten the mood, and failing that, quietly withdrew.

This reminds me of a thread from a few months back when you had retreated behind a locked door when your wife was on a rampage.  There were a few people who actually suggested that the simple act of retreating to safety was somehow a provocative act, escalating a situation, and that perhaps you should instead listen to your wife's hostile provocations, in other words just "take it."

As I mentioned in the other thread, if the gender roles were reversed, and a man was acting this way toward a woman, making demands, threats, accusations, insults, and a group of men suggested that the woman should stay in the situation, just take it, try not to upset him further, give him money, or sex, or whatever... .hopefully we'd all be outraged.

Of course, as a man, I clearly don't get it, right?  Perhaps even framing this as a double standard is missing the point.  Perhaps double standards are just the way it is between men and women, but I see your choices here as healthy, boundaried, modelling appropriate self-respect to your children, and letting your wife sit with some of the consequences of her choices and behaviors.

Chump.

[KateCat]

I see your wife's behaviors as clearly abusive and, indeed, fitting U.S. definitions of domestic violence. I also see you as not willing to leave this situation of domestic abuse. You intend, still, to master it.

Your biblical counselor was a bull in a china shop, but he did correctly identify the undercurrent of unremitting pressure and daily potential for explosion in your situation.

I'm female and would agree with everything flourdust has written on this thread. To me it is concerning to think you believe you have things under control in some way. And that the kids are OK.

[Cat Familiar]

Chump wrote:
I'm very interested in how invested a few of the women on this string are in convincing you that you need to change your perspective.  Multiple posts, many bites at the apple, trying to change your mind.  I'm uncomfortable trying too hard to change anyone's mind, because beyond offering my point of view, if they don't come around to my perspective I quickly end up becoming too invested in how another person thinks, feels or acts, and boundaries start to get fuzzy.  I don't think that's healthy.


I'm certain that I fall into the category he mentions of being "invested." Frankly, I doubt that anyone would have an easy time changing FF's mind and that is not my concern.

What I do care about is that we here, are all at different stages, having been confused and resourceless about dealing with a loved one with BPD. Most of us have used ineffective strategies which have made things worse in our relationships, despite our best intentions.
We are anonymous here and that allows us to honestly express our situations and our deepest struggles. By doing so, others who may have  different experiences, can share their own perspective and help us see our situation in a new light.

Regarding FF's situation with his wife, the women who have commented here are attempting to point out common triggers that we have observed, often from personal experience, in male to female relationships. There's no denying that we only have a personal understanding of life lived from our own gender, unless someone from the opposite gender can explain their perspective, which may be quite different, on a particular issue.

I'm not expecting FF to change his opinion about how the church evening happened nor his choice about boundaries. I would like him to imagine how his actions might have appeared to his wife. Also I would like him to think about what consequences his choice might have had for her that evening.

That said, it's a different matter to be codependent and try to control or regulate someone else's behavior. That, too many of us have tried with our pwBPD and found to be not only ineffective, but toxic. What I do think is valuable is to be able to perceive someone else's perspective in a way where we're gathering information but not invested in outcome. (Observe, not absorb)

And that is the point that I've been trying to make. I think as much as FF has cared about his wife's feelings, he has shied away from truly trying to understand her perspective.

I don't feel that I'm making this distinction well. I hope someone else can run with this and explain it better.

[formflier]

I don't believe they are under control... .and do agree this is not healthy.

When chaos reigns... .go with what you know.  Structure.  Something firm that doesn't move.

If you think that machine like... .I can see that.

Do decrease chaos... .decrease variables.

I will discuss with P today.

I may or may not master this... .but I will try.  I am on undecided board for a reason... .

FF

[KateCat]

If your psychologist agrees that the situation is unstable and exhausting, would she advocate a therapeutic separation at this time?

[Cat Familiar]

Flourdust wrote: I recognized that a child has absolutely no choice about whether or not to be exposed to these behaviors, and it's the job of responsible adults to put their needs first.


As a child, I got triangulated into my BPD mother's conflicts with my father and it created a lot of fear and insecurity for me to find myself in the middle, not wanting to alienate either parent. Also it was easy for me to think that it was my fault that they were fighting. (That thought is probably more likely with an only child--no one to commiserate with or share the blame.)

I wouldn't have had any comments about this topic had FF only been in the presence of his wife, then dropped her off at church with no money for dinner. I would have thought that would have been an appropriate response to her nasty behavior.

But it gets complicated when you add kids to the mix. They see Mom's reaction to the situation, maybe feel embarrassed themselves because they don't have dinner money and maybe Mom says something unpleasant about Dad to them. Kids remember humiliation. They don't want to be different from other kids.

To reiterate what I said in a previous comment: FF may have won the battle, but he's losing the war.

[flourdust]

I wouldn't have had any comments about this topic had FF only been in the presence of his wife, then dropped her off at church with no money for dinner. I would have thought that would have been an appropriate response to her nasty behavior.

Exactly. My last year with my wife would have been very different if we didn't have a child.

[empath]

FF, I get how toxic money discussions are; they are explosive in my house, too. For my own sanity, I needed to separate my own account - and let my husband be 'in charge' of the finances because I get too angry when he doesn't stick to the budget that we have agreed upon and overextends us with things bought on credit. I can't even have a discussion about our monthly budget with my husband, let alone the status of our loans.

My husband often has problems with projecting a 'budget' and runs out of money between paychecks (and he has multiple sources of paychecks). So, he is out of money frequently these days and asks me if I have any - often because he needs to get food.  

I also have a daughter who 'doesn't know what dad might do' - she thinks he is unstable. So, my primary responsibility for her is to provide her with a sense of stability.

All that to say, I can really relate to your desire to draw a boundary around 'your wallet.' I really can. I don't usually give my husband money to bail him out of the financial situation - that would be enabling; right now, that means that he has to pawn some of his 'toys' to pay for our regular living expenses. The exception to my rule is if my daughter needs something (food, school expenses, etc) because her well-being is my top priority - and she usually tells me about her needs before telling my husband, so I pay for it directly.

So, this is not a gendered thing for me - it is a responsibility that I have as a parent, to provide for my child regardless of what my husband is doing. (especially since he is impulsive and emotionally 'labile' Since your general practice was to eat and most often pay for the meal, your decision at the last minute not to didn't give your wife a chance to do something different and more importantly made the children pay for your issue with your wife.

From the length of this discussion, it seems to me that you have doubled down on your position and aren't really open to feedback about your actions; you kind of want us to come around you and say 'atta boy'.

Respect for your wife is hard when she is being like that, but regardless of how she acts, you should at least respect her. Respect for your children's needs for food and security are also very important. And, you know, empathy for your wife and your children was lacking.

From a boundaries perspective, you probably could have given the money to someone who wasn't being disrespectful and demanding (one of the older children could have done that - I would think). There was another option.

Being a good parent sometimes means that we can't enforce the boundary that we would like to have. We make choices to do what's in the best interest of the children, and sometimes we have softer or harder boundaries because of that.

[KateCat]

I wouldn't have had any comments about this topic had FF only been in the presence of his wife, then dropped her off at church with no money for dinner. I would have thought that would have been an appropriate response to her nasty behavior.

I would have found that appropriate too. But that is not what is happening in your family. There is very frequently an audience. And it often includes children.

I believe you are not proud of the way this played out that evening. And that you will do better next time.

[Verbena]

FF, you have been nothing but supportive of me as I shared my struggles with my now ex-husband, so I would never "gang up" on you over this issue about money for food at church.  But I do have real concerns. 

 I stayed for 34 years, far longer than I should have.  The damage done to me  was enormous, far greater than I realized.  The damage done to our kids, one of whom has BPD but is doing very well now, is not really known. 

So, I'll go back to my point about your kids.  I cannot imagine that they are not being severely affected by witnessing all the chaos in your home. It has to feel "normal" to them by now, and that is a scary thought. 

Dealing with your wife, trying to understand your wife, getting counseling with your wife, posting about your wife... .it's like a freaking career with no retirement date in site.

Although there may be lulls in the drama, she isn't getting better.  It's always something and this could go on until one of you die.  I know you believe in "for better or worse";  I did too but finally had to save what sanity I had left and get out. 

I only have two children and they're grown; you have eight and several are very young.  I get that our situations are different, but the bottom line is that the damage is ongoing with no relief in sight for your family. 

Your kids need to be protected from the chaos your wife creates.  They just do. 

[chump]

FF, I completely agree with all the comments expressing concern for your children, and expressing doubts that "managing" your wife is ultimately going to work out for you.  I completely agree.

I left my relationship (no comparison really, not married, no children, etc), even though I really wanted to stay.  The relationship simply could not survive my attempts at healthy relating and boundary setting.  So my bias is you ultimately need to leave an impossible situation, particularly where there's active abuse involved.

To the other posters, My feedback is mostly based on watching FF trying to make impossibly difficult decisions on the fly, essentially almost always under hostile conditions, and trying to remain sane and consistent for his family - both wife and children.

Through that lens, his choices seem almost heroic to me.  Not something I could do, or would recommend anyone do.  And I agree the children must be internalizing some pretty devastating and distorted life lessons about love, trust, family, intimacy, etc.  It just seems to me that FF is remarkably resiliant under these conditions, and is not only not harming his wife or children, is actually modelling a certain kind of sturdy, boundaried consistency that I find admirable.

I personally would have left long ago, but that's another thing altogether.

Chump.

[Notwendy]

I assume I am one of the lions presumed to be pouncing on FF in the den. I don't expect to change anyone's mind, but to share a perspective. Other women are expressing theirs as well . One can consider that we are ganging up, or consider why so many people had similar reactions. Ultimately it is up to everyone reading to decide to accept or discard any advice posted by anyone here.

[formflier]

My goals in this thread.

Is there a stone I left unturned?  Was there another way that I haven't thought about?  Is there another way of thinking about what I did... .that I haven't thought about?

Unfortunately... .I've been at this a while.

Here is what I need help evaluating.

1.  Calling a child over (a 13 year old was the oldest) and handing them a $20. 

I'll tell you that my initial reaction is that would be bad. 

If FF wife tells him no... .now what.  Do we do the "obedience thing" in front of the church that teaches it?

Most likely she would have grumped and just watched... .or flung words.

My first reaction is that this places the 13 year old "in between" our conflict as opposed to "being under" our conflict where the "fallout" drops on him.


I totally understand this is hard on my kids and bad for them. 

On the good better best scale... .I'm trying to see if I need to adjust.

If people don't agree with my decisions... .I'm ok with that. (not trying to be provocative)

So... .how do you think handing a kid a $20 would have gone?

FF

[flourdust]

So... .how do you think handing a kid a $20 would have gone?

Likely, that would have been fine, especially if you had done so with only neutral comments ("Here's the money for dinner." and not tried to manage whatever happened next. Another option would be to give your wife the $20 then leave or decide to sit separately from her.

[Cat Familiar]

Fellow lion reporting for duty here, Notwendy. Actually I think we're merely house kitties, trying to alert a reluctant human to danger ahead.

We are offering a collective insight into the female experience. And the response to the information we are providing seems to be more of what is known and comfortable to the recipient: structure.

Cats spend hours studying their prey. Cats are very sensitive to environmental variables. Cats have requisite variety, meaning they adapt their behavior to the response they get. Cats are not bound by rules and logic. Cats are predictably unpredictable.

It's not a coincidence that women have been compared to cats in literature throughout time. Add BPD to female and you have a wild feral feline that is not easily contained or controlled.

[Cat Familiar]

Another possibility. You could have accompanied them to the church, paid for their meals and left. Simple.

[chump]

Cats spend hours studying their prey. Cats are very sensitive to environmental variables. Cats have requisite variety, meaning they adapt their behavior to the response they get. Cats are not bound by rules and logic. Cats are predictably unpredictable.

It's not a coincidence that women have been compared to cats in literature throughout time. Add BPD to female and you have a wild feral feline that is not easily contained or controlled.

Haha! Excellent! I often compared (privately) my uBPDex to a feral cat.

Chump.

[empath]

My first reaction is that this places the 13 year old "in between" our conflict as opposed to "being under" our conflict where the "fallout" drops on him.

They were already in the firing line as their parents aren't going to pay for their dinner. They were caught in the middle of your adult issues.

So... .how do you think handing a kid a $20 would have gone?

I think it would have been fine. The kids have heard what was going on, and the 13 year old (and maybe the younger ones) knows the implications of your actions - they don't have money for dinner.


The critical issue is that their dinner is paid for in some way -- there are a number of options for that to happen, but it did require you taking the money out of your wallet to do it.


It seems to me that the people who have had children have picked up on the same issue - not just women. Minimizing due to a person's gender is not cool either. The dads have seen it too.

[Harri]

Hey FF.  I am going to respond as a child of a UBPD mother who was very similar to how your wife sounds.  I will admit to being very surprised that it took about 5 pages of the other thread before someone actually wrote about the effect of these situations on the kids.  I am disappointed that the kids were only brought into the discussion as a way of proving the points being made and not as a primary concern from the beginning.  Yes, the focus changed... .eventually.  I am floored that not one person, either with kids of without kids has commented about the following:

1)  When you got home, you heard your wife speaking to the kindergartner with a booming voice.  You then proceeded to leave the home, leave the children in the care of a woman who is speaking to them in a manner you will not accept for your own self and seem to think you are teaching the kids proper behavior.  If that tone is abusive and unacceptable for an adult (that would be you FF) it is abusive and unacceptable for a child to be talked to in that manner.  It is unacceptable to remove yourself from such a situation and leave the kids with her.  IMNSHO of course.

2) at some point in the original thread (I think) you mentioned that you were setting a boundary and teaching the kids that your wife's behavior is unacceptable.  Well, as a kid of, I can tell you that the kids are quite possibly viewing you as abandoning them to the rages of your wife.  this is something I have read in some of your other threads (such as when she is raging and you lock yourself in a room) as well as threads by others here who are married to pwBPD (so you are not alone in this).  It boggles my mind.  Your wife engages in verbal abuse and parental alienation on a regular basis, often using her role as mother and her responsiblility as a person of God to justify her abuse as she tries to 'teach' the kids that certain things are not acceptable.  PA, as hard and as difficult as it is for an adult parent, is devestating to a child and it is child abuse.  FF, my concern is not about how you look in your kids eyes (tho it is important),  Rather I am concerned the kids are getting very bad messages and in essence are being left to deal with two parents who are exhibiting poor parenting behaviors.

3) You ask what else you could have done rather than leave them at the church.  One suggestion would be to turn the car around, drive home, get out and tell the kids you are going to BBQ for them instead and let your wife stay home or go to the church on her own.  another would be to drive home and ask any kids if they want to stay home with you or go with you to a different place for dinner, and let your wife take whoever wants to go to the church.  I am sure there are other options that would not have bewildered the kids, added to their possible perception of you as abandoning them to their angry mother and taking yourself to a place of safety rather than protecting them.

A point that is not about the kids but is still coming from an adult child who grew up in a similar abusive powder keg of a house, is the following:  I would have felt like you were setting me up to look like an ogre if you had bought me a treat and given it to me in front of the kids and then said no the kids could not have any because it was just for mom.  I swear fire would have been shooting out of my eyes at that point and I would have gotten out of the car, taken all the kids and marched them home or called a friend/cab at that point.  And I can promise you there would have been no apology and no sex.  

FF, I want to echo what someone else said.  I do not see this relationship changing for the better in a sustained and consistent way.  I feel for you, I really do.  Yu are in an incredibly difficult position and you are trying your best.  Your openness here is truly inspiring and I learn so much from you.  I respect you greatly and my greatest hope for you is that you get some peace and serenity on a consistent basis.  And yes, I do believe that is possible even with 8 kids!  I think that when you are alone with your kids, you provide them with stability and structure which is very important.  I understand that you are working on being more flexible and perhaps 'softer' with the kids and that is great too.  I just see the dynamic between you and your wife as highly damaging to everyone.

Wishing you peace.

[teapay]

This happened way too fast for you to second guess yourself too much.  She was already dysregulating a bit before she even got in the car.  You tried reducing tension.  I wouldn’t go so far to say you were denying her and controlling her with money. You didn’t roll over and fork out the cash immediately to appease her and she slammed the door and walked away by her own choice.  You didn’t have much chance to kiss her rear-end with validation.  You didn’t slam the door or tell her to go away; she did that knowing she didn't have the money.  This was a church dinner at a church you attend.  It is not like they aren’t going to feed the family or like you are going to stiff the church and not pay later. 

You may have missed an opportunity by not going to the church and joining them after she texted you an apology.  That would have been validating to you and her and would have allowed you to keep your self respect.  But I understand you have feelings also and needed calming time too, so you might not have been ready.  Been there.  Over, nothing to wringing your hands too much on.

[HopefulDad]

FF:

Short term, I suggest telling your wife that being snapped or otherwise belittled in front of the kids has no place in your relationship* and should it happen again, she's on her own whether it's buying dinner, doing a family activity or whatever.  Make it clear this isn't about using money as power over her as she can easily keep her wallet stocked with cash if she feels the need to make a habit out of this behavior.  This is addressing a behavior only, not her thought process behind it.  She's more than entitled to think you're the biggest ahole on earth, but vocalizing it in small or big ways in front of the kids is not allowed.

Long term, I suggest that the two of you seriously address with a professional on how to parent without your marital issues getting in the way.  How to not undermine each other, how to not speak ill of each other to the kids, etc.

And no, if you had to do it all over again, giving the money to one of your kids is not the best idea.  First, you're bringing your kids directly into your problems; Keep the problems between you and your wife.  Second, it's passive aggressive behavior towards your wife.  :)on't do that to her.


* And correcting her behavior in front of the kids also has no place.  Telling her to "ask nicely or no money for you" in front of the kids was the wrong time and place.  Next time say, "Honey, you and I need to have a talk about this in private after the kids go down to bed" and that's the end of it at that moment until you revisit this later in private.

[formflier]

I have choices... .but I also hope you guys understand "why" I have made the choices I have.

What is going on with my kids is horrible.  It looks like sesame street compared to life after divorce with my nieces and nephews.    My wife's sister.

So... .while yes... divorce is an option, there is a long period of getting worse (years) before possible getting better.  

Post divorce and after uninterrupted PA for a couple years my oldest nephew drew pictures of his Dad... .stabbed those pictures with a knife... .has been in therapy since... .for years.  Is pretty much ruined.  Arrests... drugs... .all that.

I do have choices... .I just don't have any that I like.  

Heading to P appointment in a bit.

FF

[HopefulDad]

What is going on with my kids is horrible.  It looks like sesame street compared to life after divorce with my nieces and nephews.    My wife's sister.

So... .while yes... divorce is an option, there is a long period of getting worse (years) before possible getting better.  

Post divorce and after uninterrupted PA for a couple years my oldest nephew drew pictures of his Dad... .stabbed those pictures with a knife... .has been in therapy since... .for years.  Is pretty much ruined.  Arrests... drugs... .all that.

I do have choices... .I just don't have any that I like.

While I understand your extended family's experience with divorce and parental alienation gives you pause, please remember that anecdotes do not equal data.  I think my kids' situation has improved after divorce.  I'm sure plenty in the divorce/legal forum can say the same.

Kids are observant, often for more than we give them credit.  They can start drawing their own conclusions on what's healthy or not by simply being parented two different ways.  What's key is that you push hard for equal custody time because just showing you want to spend time with them does wonders to offset any parental alienation an ex can do.

Anyway, you're not at the divorce stage and may never get to that stage, so just something to file away. 

[Notwendy]

To address Harri's post about the children, I did have concerns but wanted to focus on the incident between FF and his wife.

I too am the child of a mother with BPD who isn't nearly as functional as FF's wife. My mother can't seem to handle most household tasks, raising kids, or a job. For FF's wife to be able to do these things, even with issues, is remarkable to me.

However, I know that conflict can exist even with a functional person with BPD. An incident such as the topic of discussion was a regular occurrence for me growing up along with many other difficult ones. This is why I support FF's trying to establish boundaries and not tolerate abuse. This was not in question.

My point was not what FF wanted to do but the how, and the means. Money is an emotionally laden issue. It can become a point of conflict in a marriage, and a highly volatile one in a dysfunctional marriage. I experienced this both in my FOO and my own marriage.

While FF may have felt like Daniel in the Lion's Den, I think I am actually on his side, not trying to attack him but to point out the possible collateral damage of this incident from my point of view so that next time, there may be more awareness of the issue involved and he may want to try another way to enforce a boundary that is less damaging to a marriage.

[GaGrl]

I haven't weighed in yet, but here goes... .

My DH was active, then reserve, then active officer, then reserve -30 years total service -so I get the military aspect. I'm almost grateful I wasn't married to him during those years.

His ex , the uNPD/BPD, simply refused to go to multiple postings with him, so he became the equivalent of an absent Dad. That ranged from a 2-year assignment in Cold War Europe to a nearby posting where he could drive home on weekends.

Some aspects were OK, some not. There was infidelity that the children were exposed to... .certainly not the case with the FF family. There were differences with discipline that the school counselor was brought into and that nearly involved DFCS.

In the end, DH went reserve again because his next posting was a 2-year XO assignment in a Central American jungle. He had 3 teenagers and knew that after 2 years, someone would be dead - either his then-wife or one of the teens. He most definitely made career sacrifices and personal sacrifices to protect the children.

And guess what? They might be physically OK, but each of the three adult children is in need of long-term therapy. None has sustained a long-term relationship.

No answers here. I just wonder at what point you decide that one stable household is better for the children than a combined chaotic household.

[chump]

I too am the child of a mother with BPD who isn't nearly as functional as FF's wife. My mother can't seem to handle most household tasks, raising kids, or a job. For FF's wife to be able to do these things, even with issues, is remarkable to me.

However, I know that conflict can exist even with a functional person with BPD. An incident such as the topic of discussion was a regular occurrence for me growing up along with many other difficult ones. This is why I support FF's trying to establish boundaries and not tolerate abuse. This was not in question.

I found myself nodding in agreement to NotWendy's post here.  I too was raised by a BPD mom, four children, not eight like FF's family, but like NotWendy my mom barely coped.  And she was pretty horrible to all of us, and my dad.  He died much too young, and frankly I think his marriage hastened his end.

My dad would have had every right to divorce her, and when I was a kid, I often wished he would, but in hindsight, as bad as it was in our home, it would have been so much worse if we had been left alone with her.  And back then in particular, the likelihood of him getting full custody was essentially nil.  Although ill-advised, unhealthy, codependent, etc, etc, my dad was a certain kind of hero who stood in the breach and modeled a kind of steadiness and calm that ultimately helped me find my way in the world.  Again, so far from optimal, and lots of good arguments against the choice he made to remain in his marriage, but I'm glad he stayed and continued to be the glue of our family.

It's through that filter that I watch FF struggle to hold it all together.  I see Harri's (I think) point about withdrawing when FF's wife is verbally aggressive with the children, but I'm guessing that intervening at those moments means all out war.  Those situations seem to present to FF as one of two bad choices, confront his wife in front of the child(ren), or leave her permanently and seek full custody.  He seems at the moment to be choosing a middle path, at great expense to himself.  It's not clear that either of the other two options, a bitter protracted divorce, or an ongoing World War III in his home, are better than a tactical retreat in these situations, and then always looking for new ways to establish healthier boundaries.

Chump.

[Meadowslark]

Hey FF. I've not posted in your threads before, but have been following and am truly amazed at the level of tolerance you have for your wife's behaviors towards you and your children.

I'd like to give major kudos to Harri, whose points are above and beyond anything I could come up with. I'm not attacking you (nor do I understand any of the biblical references - other reason I've stayed out of your threads) but express enormous amounts of sympathy for your children. It must be hell for them to witness the abusive behaviors of your wife towards them and you on a fairly regular basis. There doesn't seem to be much stability in their lives, and there are eight of them. Kudos to you for trying to reign it all in.

Speaking as a child of a malignant sadist NPD father and older sibling of an out-of-control BPD sister, my perspective is obviously very different. I do wish my parents had divorced much earlier - I think the damage they inflicted would have been lessened had a stable household been provided. And there were only 2 kids! My sister is supposedly in treatment but still extremely damaged by our father's behaviors, and I've been in therapy for 3+ years following a suicide attempt. Our mother is irreparably damaged by PD abuse.

All I'm trying to say is the same as what Gagrl said:

I just wonder at what point you decide that one stable household is better for the children than a combined chaotic household.

But chump provided insight:

It's not clear that either of the other two options, a bitter protracted divorce, or an ongoing World War III in his home, are better than a tactical retreat in these situations, and then always looking for new ways to establish healthier boundaries.

Seems like a double-edged sword in most respects. I suppose I'm biased towards the children, since I remember what it's like to be in those situations - helpless, unheard, and like a prisoner of a war that our parents started. (Disclaimer: This is just my opinion based on what I've read in these threads. Feel free to correct me.)

[Sunfl0wer]

At the risk of chiming in late, just gonna mention one thing... .

FFw has a job, earns a check, I think she holds her money seperate from his not intermingling with the main one he uses to pay bills by her own choice.  I think.

So why does anyone feel she is entitled to show up without a wallet, expecting to rely on FF to have funded this?

Specifically what I am asking... .
if roles were reversed, and FF were the any female member here, the woman in this scenario, and FF husband the gentleman type that opens doors, would we still expect the BPD husband to behave like an entitled bully, and then would we be telling our female member, hey, why not just give him the money?

Idk, I have seen advice to females here and usually they are admonished to disengage, not reinforce verbal abuse, not give car keys, etc.

[Notwendy]

Sunflower - had FFw been pissy at him and then demanded money for her own use, this would have been a different situation.

However, what happened here is that the family was on their way to a church supper- FF included. I presume there was no discussion about who would pay- it was a family event, and I suppose she assumed FF would pay for all of them, or she would have brought money.

So, she gets pissy in the car, and FF decides to remove himself. Not a bad idea, but now FFw and children are now dropped off at church and FF plans to drive off. FFw did not expect it, finds herself without dinner money. She's angry about being stranded and asks FF for cash so they can eat.

This is not a demand for personal funds. She's now dropped off at church and didn't plan to be there without FF. She asks for cash so that she and the children can eat.

This is different than if someone- male or female is abusive and demands money.

I think if the genders were changed, the situation- being unexpectedly dropped off with the kids and no money for dinner would still be punitive to the kids.

[formflier]

Correct about money.  My wife puts 100% of her money into her account... and a chunk of "my" money.

We have a pot for household things that we both have access to.  I put 100% into that.

I have a pot that only I have access to... .I put 100% into that.

Big picture:  I do limit the amount in the joint account.  It has run out a time or two... .and I've let that debit card not work until start of next month.  The ultimate boundary... .when the debit card rejects.

Note:  In the Navy and in my executive jobs I did multi-million dollar line item budgets... .never once had any money end up missing or misspent.  It galls me to budget this way (the way we do in our household)... .but I make it work. 

My wife had her purse with her... .as she was blathering away and trying to shame me for not wanting to come inside and eat with them... .she checks her purse and realizes she has no money.  Trust me... .had I seen any... .I mean any "softening" or indication that she at all needed to be nice.  I would have handed over the money.

There is no chance of me getting full custody.  My ex brother in law divorced based on 1 stable household is better than a war in one.  It was a bad call.  You have to get them to the stable house. 

Without sole physical custody... .every... and I mean every transfer of kids would be a stage for punishment.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Idk, I'm not gonna take sides.  I am not even implying anything.  I am offering my perspective.

FFW is capable of bringing money.  (I will not elevate her to a level of entitlement for money he brought, nor de elevate her to a level of incapable/victim of FF. Yup people make mistakes, both parties.  Also people have "habits." Doesn't much matter reason IMO why she didn't take responsibility of having cash on hand in case of this or emergency.  Kind of a good thing to do as general principal, IMO)

I also feel handing kids money is involving kids into a dispute.

"Stranded" - idk, seems like all ate, didn't go hungry.  FFW had a choice to stay in vehicle and go home.  I suspect he went back for everyone at end and they had a ride?  I am not saying her position was a nice one.  I am just saying she had choices, made some and so did FF, and I am not feeling either made "best" ones in this situation.  Again, just my thoughts is all.  

Imo, sometimes treating a person as helpless, enables helplessness, generally speaking.

I think FF responding in a way "in reaction" to any FFW behavior is a response worthy of reconsideration.

So to see if I can address his question of what choices he may have had... .
1. Consider if you knew she likely expected you to pay, to have offered money in advance.  I have done this and it went well for me.  If I knew ex would not be able to make a request of me without rudeness for his ego was at stake, I in advanced provided the thing, so he didn't have to ask.  I eliminated the verbal crud from him and prevented escalation this way.  He sometimes recognized my behavior as kindness and relaxed a bit.  He hated asking me for much, and stressed doing so.
2. Consider: Oh, I wasn't prepared for that... .then offer simple solution.  Like oh, maybe we can pay double next time.  Sort of a distraction from looking to you, and provide a redirection to her attempting to do some "empowering" problem solving. (Only issue with this is it seems like an implied lie)
3. Consider announcing ahead of time your plan at the house... .it can empower/enable her to plan ahead.
4. Consider just staying back (announcement at house) so any confrontation about it can happen at the house.
5. Consider a new rule of always keeping emergency 50 bucks in every vehicle and for borrower to replace... .this way she coulda dipped into the glove box, helped herself, all involved get a lesson on prepping for situating unexpected.
6. Consider handing her money... .well seems like that was covered, just saying as I see it as a valid option worthy of mentioning as well as others.  I'm not sold on any of these options anyway... .this one, or all.  Reason being is YOU know what her real tone was, what your boundaries are, and what other logistics are feasible, aND hAve a bether iDea of say... .telling at house may ca use bigger dyregulation for kid's to see, idk.

Hoping I offered an overall positive perspective with options or at least another view, idk.

[empath]

FF, have you stated this boundary to your wife clearly and directly? ie. I will not give you money out of my wallet if you are being pissy toward me. So that she knew in advance that this was something that could happen.

[motherhen]

I've read both threads in one sitting and one thing I haven't seen addressed. I've read most of your threads since I've been here FWIW. FF, you use logic above all else, but still the empathy is missing.

I understand she was being pissy towards a small child when you encountered her prior to the incident. Instead of possibly taking over with the child to complete the assignment or at least relieve her from "duty" for the moment, you left without saying a word. This is a HUGE abandonment trigger for the BPD.

Then you did a nice thing with the pretzel, but it's kind of like throwing a dog a bone when what she likely needed was a freaking break from kids. I wouldn't swoon over a pretzel when you failed to fufill your parenting duty when clearly needed and I'm not BPD.

Then you changed plans suddenly and decided not to attend the dinner. Another HUGE trigger. She's reeling and thinking about the people who will ask about where you are and how it will look, etc. I don't care about the money, it's obviously complicated but you certainly showed your stuff in front of the kids and won the battle but perhaps lost the war. If you divorce, paying her won't depend on her treating you with respect.

The sex, people with BPD use sex as well, there are many reasons that are foreign to us nons. She was obviously quite anxious following all of that and needed to reassure herself which is a typical BPD response to being unsure of where she stands or if you are going to abandon her.

[Notwendy]

We can look at this thread from a right/wrong perspective, but it doesn't have to be, and that isn't my intention.

I support FF in upholding boundaries.

The question is what tool for which job? Or as the title says "warfare". This already establishes the situation. If this is war, in war there is rarely two winners. Usually one side wins, the other loses after a battle with considerable damage. FF has mentioned attempts to stabilize the marriage. War destabilizes the loser. Is it possible to do both?

In a war, one has different weapons and approaches. How does one wage war on the enemy without too much collateral damage to innocent civilians?  Do you use ground troops, firearms, nukes?

One of the reasons we experience ongoing conflict in relationships is that both partners bring their own relationship tools to the relationship. We use what we know, we use what works for us, but if these tools are dysfunctional or destructive, we may not get the results we want. If this is the case, then we can decide at some point that the tools we have are not working for us and we need new tools. We may not know what we need, but using the same tools and getting the same results would make us reflect on that. Doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results doesn't work well.

As a child of a BPD mother, I was raised experiencing conflict between my parents. I also agree with doing the best thing possible for the children, but the children are affected by such issues. If the goal is to reduce the collateral damage, if possible, then one has to consider the effect of the battle plan with the spouse.

In fact, while I am using the military idea- as stated by FF, the whole idea of war with your wife seems incompatible with the idea of stabilizing the family. War is destructive. It hurts.

The issue isn't if FF has the right to defend his boundaries. But using emotional nukes can create a whole lot of damage and the kids can get caught in the fallout.

My position is that, while military analogies work great in the armed forces, they aren't the best approach to family harmony. Maybe it is time to lay down arms and learn different skills if the goal is different results. But if the goal is to win through open warfare, then that is a choice as well.

[formflier]

FF, have you stated this boundary to your wife clearly and directly? ie. I will not give you money out of my wallet if you are being pissy toward me. So that she knew in advance that this was something that could happen.

This is well known boundary.

I will continue the conversation about money but won't hand it over untill the attitude is right and sometimes the issue settled.

Had she become nice I would have set a time to talk later and handed money.

The only other conversational boundary that is better known is threats.

You better do x or I will Y.  I get up and walk away. 

FF

[teapay]

Your strategy of consistency in maintaining boundaries is correct, including this instance.  No one was abused, controlled or had their safety to put jeopardy by you.  No one went hungry or would have.  No kids were triangulated by you.  Your kids saw you wouldnt take rude treatment.  Long term your strategy of maintaining consistent boundaries, supported by validation, which you do, is also correct and overtime has probably brought overall more stability to your family that other method.  You seem to know this by experience.  You echo this over and over.  My situation is similar to yours.  I have 5 kids under 12 and my wife is alittle less functional than yours.  Money issues, yes. Issues regarding separation and it's practical implications, yes. The strategy you are using has also worked best for me not withstanding all the critics.  Overall my W has done better with this approach which has brought stability to the family.  AltHough imperfectly,  she has connected behavior with consequences.  My wife is the destabilizing force in the family because is inherently unstable with me or without me

[formflier]

Sometimes others express things much better.

Teapay pretty much has it nailed... .the way I view it.


Here is the nuance that I would add... .that specifically applies to my military experience.

Naval Aviation and operations on a flight deck... .and combat can be described as "controlling chaos".  Best way to do that is to increase structure and predictability.  So that when you look at a decision made by a service person in the heat of the moment, I'm not so interested in the decision as the underlying value or goal used to make a snap judgment.  Usually, that value or goal will point back to structure.

Empathy:  I will tell you that this is a primary thing my P is working with me on.  It is what it is.  I'm going to toss in some psych terms that I may not be using exactly correctly... .so give me some wiggle room here.

She says that lots of military guys will "dissociate" during periods of danger or stress because there are lots of unpleasant things that need to be done for the survival of the lives entrusted to you.  That the value placed on your own life is fairly low and the importance of "mission" is placed above that.

Example:  Plane is on fire, I'm the aircraft commander.  Chances I will express any sort of empathy to my crew is about zero.  That would waste time and energy... .and potentially their lives.  

many of you guys:  "but... .your family is not on fire?"    I get that intellectually.  When the stress is on, you go with what you know.

From a woman's point of view (specifically my wife):  The traits and thought patterns that keep aircrew alive and airplanes intact do not translate well into good relationship skills.  I likely "overly thoughtful" and unemotional.  I'm sure my disrespect of "free spirit" come through loud and clear.

It's something I am working on.  

FF

[chump]

More kudos to teapay for expressing what I was trying to say, only saying it better, and with the benefit of actually living it.

What a great thread, so much insightful, genuinely useful input.

Chump.

[KateCat]

The following is my perception only:

You family is indeed "on fire." Teapay's description of how he has doused the fire in his own family is a valuable contribution to this thread.

Having followed your posts from the beginning, I fear that the teapay protocol has not worked and will not work in your particular (extreme) situation. Your wife has damaged you and your reputation and your career in ways that leave you much changed, I think. Few men who post here seem to have experienced quite what you have. And your present lawsuit is an indicator that more damage can yet occur.

The way forward is to look within and do something very different. If you can. (Skip mentioned this to you in a powerful post some months ago.) A viable agent of change is this very skilled psychologist.

I want to thank Notwendy for her stalwart contribution to this and other discussions here. Her empathy for all parties is steady and unwavering. Never has she forgotten the children. I'd say Notwendy and the family psychologist are on the same page and the same path.

[Cat Familiar]

No one was abused, controlled or had their safety to put jeopardy by you.  No one went hungry or would have.  No kids were triangulated by you.  Your kids saw you wouldnt take rude treatment.  

I would agree with all of this. However, this way of looking at this incident overlooks the emotional component of those involved.

Setting aside Mrs. FF's emotional response to being dropped off at the church with no money, let's imagine how FF's children might have seen this incident.

Mom is yelling at Dad and Dad was going to go to church with us. Dad drives off and leaves us with Mom. Mom is really upset now because she can't pay for our dinner. I don't know when Dad is coming back. Dad has never done this before. He's always gone to church dinner with us. Why isn't he here? Is he mad? What happens if he doesn't come back? How will we get home? How is Mom going to pay for our dinner? Mom is really mad now. Mom is saying bad things about Dad. Why did he do this? Where is he? When is he coming back? Did we do anything to make him mad at us? Why is this happening?

[KateCat]

Mom is yelling at Dad and Dad was going to go to church with us. Dad drives off and leaves us with Mom. Mom is really upset now because she can't pay for our dinner. I don't know when Dad is coming back. Dad has never done this before. He's always gone to church dinner with us. Why isn't he here? Is he mad? What happens if he doesn't come back? How will we get home? How is Mom going to pay for our dinner? Mom is really mad now. Mom is saying bad things about Dad. Why did he do this? Where is he? When is he coming back? Did we do anything to make him mad at us? Why is this happening?

I wonder if you could address this issue specifically, formflier? After all this time, I still can't tell whether you understand this at an emotional level or not.

[formflier]

The following is my perception only:

You family is indeed "on fire."  

Unfortunately... .I am in full agreement with this.

To be clear... .P has discussed divorce and separation with me.  She herself is divorced from a paranoid person and has children with him (her children are in their 30s now)  The clear message to me is "not now" and to evaluate after legal issues have progressed or settled.


She has talked to my L directly about the case(s) and I believe she has accurate view and understanding of matters at stake and impact on me and my family of various outcomes.

Her opinion is that a good outcome (which seems likely) of legal issues drastically reduces anxiety and tension in our household.  And would be much less shaming for my wife.

If there is a bad outcome, the guess is that my wife's current level of shame about her actions will skyrocket... .and that is scenario that I don't want to spend much time thinking about.  Nothing good down that path.

FF

[MaybeSo]

I copied and pasted the interaction onto a word document and changed the roles so that the husband is the one with the tone of voice at the end of the day, and the wife is the one coming home.  All other things being equal, including children present and presumption that the husband has BPD, a disorder triggered by abandonment and considerable deficits in emotion regulation.

I felt bothered reading the scenario even with the 'sexes' switched.  I still found the wallet interaction way overboard and unesesarily provocative given the context.

In either scenario, I see the "nons" responsibility as staying grounded, providing protection and normalcy for children, and maintaining boundaries.  The way I was taught to apply boundaries focused on defensive maneuvers, not offensive manuevers.  If my partner is doing something I find triggering, upsetting disrespectful, how do I want to take care of myself w/out adding fuel to the fire?  :)o I want to take a break, leave for a while etc. The last thing I would ever do in a situation like FFs writes about and with children around, is make any kind of provocative move or power play with a dysregulated partner.  The way I was taught about boundaries put the responsibility squarely on my shoulders to mind my own business and my own reactivity and to not wade into a territory where I'm demanding or making requests of a dysregulated person.  I can always take care of myself in a defensive maneuver, or I can use other tools provided, empathy, emotional validation, if I have the strength and I feel grounded enough to try it.  

In my own life, during the dark years w/ my partner when things were at there worst because I WAS ADDING FUEL TO FIRE... .we had young children in our care.  I never once did anything while the kids were around that might provoke an already dyregulated man.  I pulled power plays and all sorts of codependent drama plays when we were alone plenty in the worst years... .but never w/ children around.  Never. If he was being rude/disrespectful to ME,  I quietly excused myself and went elsewhere or busied myself elsewhere. Those kids are now young adults.  I think they respect me tremendously.  That means so much more to me than trying to extract something from their father while he's at his worst and having those kids witness that kind of drama.  They saw it already for years with him and their mom... .and there was no way I was going to put them through another version of crazy. I can't even imagine pulling the "wallet scene" with my partner that FF pulled with his wife, not in a million years.  Certainly not with kids there.

In fact, it would never occur to me in a million years to interact with any other adult the way the wallet scene reads in this thread. Maybe, maybe I might do something similar with a small child over toy or something, but even with a child, if it's cranky it probably needs to be held or taken to bed and not increase their dysregulation by making more demands or requests of them.  Usually that gets you even more of a melted down child. BPD is not dissimilar.  I have certainly had many interactions with pets where I am using the kind of behavior modification FF used w/ the wallet scene... .but that's with a pet I am trying to train.

My job is not make other adults show me respect or train them or modify their behavior.  That is not my job.  If I'm with an adult who seems upset I would ask about what is going on for them (inside) and see if there is something I could do to help them.  Friendly-like.   If it was partner at end of day, I'd assume they were tired/at end of rope and I'd be showing them that I care by asking them how they are and if I can help. Friendly-like.  If I got nowhere and they remained hostile w/ my best effort to be a friend, I'd move to defensive boundary and take distance in the least provocative way I could find.  If I felt my children were at risk, I'd stay to supervise and protect my children and keep low profile.    

FF was being asked to provide the money for the family outing that his family were with him to attend in the first place. The cash was for his family.  If he chose not to attend family function last minute as a boundary or to take care of self, there is no reason to w/hold the money from family unless it provides an opportunity for a power play.  This was a power play.  We can all as smart people find tremendously logical and even noble reasons to support behaviors that are neither productive or kind, and I think that it what is happening here in this case. All the logic in the world just bleeds out what is really needed here which is basic empathy and people skills.  

I also agree w/ writers here who are pointing out that damaged people often use basic, primitive means of gaining a sense of security with others that commonly include submissive roles such as offering themselves sexually.

I still contend there are men all over the world who came home to a cranky tired out of sorts wife who don't view it  through the lens of warfare.  

And there are many who do view it through the lens of warfare.  

What are the results?

We are all here, on a website designed to help people who have truly very dysfunctional relationships.

A really good book on this exact matter is The Anatomy of Peace by The Arbinger Institute.

Wishing everyone a very peaceful weekend.    

[formflier]

Please don't take this post as an argument "against" MaybeSo or me trying to prove her... .or anyone else wrong.  There is an "art" to how to deal with a pwBPD and I find it completely fascinating how some people can take the same principle (MaybeSo's quote below) and then when putting that principle into action... .the actions look completely different.

 The way I was taught to apply boundaries focused on defensive maneuvers, not offensive manuevers.  

Completely agree... .100%.  I use the analogy that it is my job to build a wall and make sure that wall is sturdy.  Then my partner has a choice to bang their head against the wall 1 time... or 100.


From an empathy point of view, I do care about my partner.  I have to balance that care with the knowledge of what happens when my partner chooses to bang her head on a boundary and sometimes the "door" opens due to banging of the head.  Am I being a loving partner if I give them the experience that banging their head works... .sometimes?

How does that apply to this situation?

My wallet.  My money.  My boundary.  The key to get through the boundary is well known.

The money in my wallet comes from "my account" (I don't use family debit card to get cash).  So, that does mean that when someone needs $5 for something at school... .it's "dad's money" and not "family".  I don't mention it or make a big deal about it.  

Specifically that means that in prior times when I have paid at church it was "dad's money".  The times when my wife paid... .I don't know where that cash came from.  She had two sources... .either is fine by me.

Power play:  Perhaps we would define this differently.  I would see this incident as a power play IF, I followed up the incident with a new set of rules.  Made sure that next Wed the cash came from the family account... .that the next time a kid asked for $5 for school I was very obvious about getting it from "the family account" vice "dad's wallet".

Perhaps some would call that example above "punishment" vice a "power play".


(Start of new thought)

Perhaps where I went on offense, or where I didn't do boundary enforcement correctly.

In the purest sense of "my view" I should have kept my wallet in my pants and not said anything in return to my wife until she "asked properly".

I can see how that taking the wallet out while I was verbalizing the boundary could be seen as provocative, offensive... .perhaps other words as well.

My goal was to try and "remind" her that she is the one with a choice.  From my "purest" point of view, the boundary is well known and it's not my job to remind her, it would be her responsibility to ask.

Perhaps this is something for me to consider for next time.  I'm sure there will be one... .hopefully will take a while.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

From what I've read here, boundaries are for protecting ourselves, not changing other's behavior. Your opening your wallet was contingent upon a behavioral change in your wife. Since she was dysregulating at the time, how likely was that to occur?

In principle, I would have had no issue with what you did, had it not concerned your children. From a theatric perspective, taking your wallet out, then putting it back, unopened, seems like an aggressive posture. Do you really want to escalate an already tense situation with your wife?

I've reread both of these threads. Your wife was cranky and spoke to you in an unpleasant way in front of your children. Yes, and ? 

I guess I don't really get what was so terrible about her behavior because this is the story of how my mother frequently behaved to my dad, in front of me.

Yeah, it's not pleasant. I'm sure you're tired of it, but I didn't read anything so awful she did, other than being impatient with your child and using a loud voice tone to both of you.

Disrespect is part and parcel of BPD and though we'd like that not to be true, to make a big scene when we feel we're not treated appropriately, certainly doesn't
improve your marriage, nor will it guarantee respectful behavior in the future.

And I'd bet money that your children saw your behavior as "making a scene."

Yeah, it's easy for me to sit here and tell you these things. I'm not dealing with an unpleasant person and eight kids on a daily basis.

What concerns me is that you default to an authoritarian stance in these situations, cling tightly to your position, and seem resistant to looking at it from another angle.

Has it occurred to you that your insistence upon tightly maintained structure might cause rebellious behavior in your wife, trying to undermine that structure.

If I were in her shoes, that incident would likely see me plotting some kind of revenge for being humiliated both in front of the children and the church.


You haven't addressed imagining how this specific incident might have played out from your children's perspective.

[formflier]

From what I've read here, boundaries are for protecting ourselves, not changing other's behavior.  

And our money as well?  Stuff within out boundaries?

I do see the perspective where you could say I was trying to change a behavior.  But... .if you look at my analogy... .my point of view.  I build the wall... .my wife decides to change behavior or not.  Changed behavior is a byproduct of the wall, it is not the purpose.

In other words... .my wife is the one with the choice of 1 "head bang"... 100... .or 1000. 


The more I think about it... .I absolutely made an error by taking out my wallet.  To be clear... I didn't wave it around or "taunt" with it.  Totally agree on that.


Technically... .this incident had two boundaries.

1.  I determined that it was no longer a good idea for me to be close to my wife and I needed time alone.  Those were my feelings... .I was protecting them.  This was Wed night.  This had been going on since Sunday night.  "this" being over the top disrespect and nastiness.


2.  How to get to my money in my wallet.



I'll do some thinking on how this may have looked from their perspectives.  Post about it later.

I'm off to swim for a while.  Try to work some stress out.  

FF

[KateCat]

You may recall I've been a long-time proponent of you reading the postings of moderator livednlearned in which she discusses her son's experiences growing up in a difficult family situation and her work with supporting his emotional healing. It's powerful stuff, and I read it with great interested and to great benefit, even though my experiences with an unstable parent are many decades in the past.

If you haven't had a chance to read these yet, now would be a great time. I would go so far as to say that you cannot do without this type of knowledge as you move forward.

[formflier]

I have read them... .but it has been a while.  I will revisit them.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

FF, it just occurred to me what I think is the "hole" in your communication style that causes several of us women to repeat the same point over and over, thinking that you're not "getting it."

For example, I pointed out that Mrs. FF might have been embarrassed to be without dinner money at the church.

If you had said something like, "Well, her embarrassment was not my concern. I wanted to be consistent with my boundaries," I would have felt that you actually considered her emotional state by your response and I would have respected that and not attempted to rephrase my thought.

As it is, you "chuckle" (which is dismissive and invalidating) and say you feel like Daniel in the lion's den. Yeah, I get that you feel criticized by a number of women and I think that's quite accurate.

However, we in this community are trying to hold up mirrors so that others can see their blind spots. We all have them. What I sense in both this thread and the baby stroller thread is that by not appearing to consider someone's suggestion (usually a woman's) and doubling down on your opinion, you come across as close-minded and stubborn.

Really, all it would take would be a phrase like, "I hadn't thought of that (or I had thought of that or I don't care that person felt that way)... .but I still think what I did was right for me." Respect and done. That way the person giving you the suggestion feels like you've actually taken a moment to consider what they've said.

Since this dynamic popped up in the thread a few months ago and the church dinner thread, I would tend to believe that this might be a common occurrence when you have a different opinion than your wife. And because of how it plays to women, who in this culture are accustomed to being invalidated by a man when giving an opinion--it happens to all women at some point, often frequently, this might be causing untoward consequences in your marital communication.

[Notwendy]

The Daniel in the Lion's Den analogy got my attention because Daniel was a righteous man who found himself surrounded by lions potentially about to attack, but God was on his side.

The unfortunate part of this is that, as Cat said, the numerous posters who seemed to be saying the same thing to you were not a pack of lionesses about to attack you. We were trying to help you.

I have no interest attacking you and we are not a pack. Several posters ( many of them women) had a similar response to what happened. Yes, many of us are women- but we are different women, live in different places, different circumstances- and to me it would be unusual for several people to hold a similar point of view if there wasn't some point worth considering in it.

I may not see the Bible in the same way as you, but I see the different characters as humans with human traits that are represented in all of us. The Daniel story is an important one about faith, but Daniel in relation to the lions was an innocent victim. When we take victim position, we are on the Karpan triangle.

One character who portrays a very human side of us is Esau, who in a moment of hunger, traded something precious ( his birthright) and intangible for the immediate need to eat. He later realized what he did and regretted it. I would be willing to bet that most of us have, in the moment, being tired, hungry, angry, stressed- have made decisions in the moment that have hurt our relationships with others. Yet, for many of us, these hurts can be repaired- starting with a sincere apology, and an attempt to repair.

My parents did a lot for me, and like you, I know that my father did the best he could with his situation at hand. However, there were numerous incidences where we kids were caught in the wake of the hostility between my parents. One reason I commented on the church dinner was because, to me, being a family together meant something to me. Yet, it seems these times would fall apart. I can recall one incident ( out of many) at a graduation where my father got angry at my mother and stomped out of the event. I cried the rest of the afternoon. It was my graduation but is became all about her, and his response, all about him.

I think all parents have spats, and a few events over the years probably doesn't affect kids much. Yet, these events accumulated. Sometimes my father seemed so focused on the drama with my mother that it felt he couldn't see what was right in front of him- children who loved him - who desperately wanted him to know us, who we were. But if we expressed any feelings or distress over the issues with my mother, we were dismissed.

As Cat pointed out- it is the dismissal that is upsetting. Because the person doesn't feel heard or seen. (dismissal is different from disagreement).

Living with a pw PBD can put us in an emotional state of survival, and this state does change how we respond. When we are in survival mode, we reserve all our energies for self preservation and in the case of children, basic survival for them. There is little room to pay attention to things like empathy, feelings. Your war analogy is similar to this- and it makes sense. You probably don't sit down with your platoon to talk about feelings on the front line. I can understand that a family with 8 kids and a BPD mother would be in survival mode a lot of the time.

Essau made a decision when in "survivor" mode. Although he's portrayed as less of a person than the high minded Daniel, as humans, we have the characteristics of both of them. The decision you made in the moment, in survival mode, was exactly what we humans do. However, the precious, intangible trade off was the relationship with your kids, who didn't just need dinner. They needed a peaceful family dinner at church with their whole family together.

These moments are collective in a child's mind. I was hoping to call attention to the relationship here, so you don't trade your "birthright" in a moment of anger with your wife. 

[teapay]

FF,  I’d say your military background, perspective and training are a great asset for you in your circumstances.   I also served active duty Army from 2002 through 2013 and I don’t think I would have got through my difficulties without it.  It is all very applicable in so many ways.  I’m assuming you were an officer, which would make it even more applicable.

The teapay protocol is directed at men who are still married to women with clinical BPD (dx or undx) and who have children.  It is not directed at females or unmarried men with or without children or exes.   These groups are qualitatively different.  It is not the FF approach but is influenced by it since the FF approach is correct in many ways.  Over the long term it is guaranteed to improve the quality of life for the male non.  It’s primary focus is on the quality of life and health of the male non regardless of whether the relationship improves or not and by default benefits the children.  If the BPD benefits from it, which frequently occurs, it is an added bonus.

[Notwendy]

Teapay,

I think structure and consistency, not compromising your principles are beneficial and important. Do you think there is a way to combine this in relationship to the pwBPD while also realizing that the kids most likely do not have it and need a different relationship with their parents?

I fully agree that taking care of the non is essential and benefits the children. Certainly in the higherarchy of needs- their physical and safety needs are key. If the spouse with BPD threatens the family resources, the welfare of the parent who provides the resources, then protecting this becomes a primary concern.

I hope it is clear that I am not being critical of FF's approach in general but in this one incident- as when children were involved, their feelings are too.

My mother's mental illness resulted in financial problems and overall chaos for the family. We understood that my father had to work- and that his welfare benefited all of us. I also agree that him walking off was better than had he stayed and argued with her.

It is unfortunate that my parents couldn't lay down arms for a couple of hours so events like graduations were memorable in better ways. However, given the choice of that, or a roof over my head, the roof was by far, more essential.

Although it  I am speaking from the perspective of a woman, that perspective includes one of a daughter. I give him full credit for my welfare as a child. He did what he had to do and he did it well- like you and FF are doing. But I don't know if he ever realized how much his kids loved him and wanted him to see that too.

[KateCat]

teapay, do you have any thoughts regarding the crises formflier seems to experiencing presently? (Family, church community, mounting legal bills?)

As things seem not to be improving for him, do you see any adjustment to the formflier protocol that he might make? It's hard not to believe that most everything here is interconnected, and that if there is to be improvement it will likely need to come from him.

I'm stumped and can't imagine anything really helping the family other than a therapeutic separation between the parents for a significant period of time--in order to reach for that structure and consistency of which you speak. Just now those things seem elusive.

[Notwendy]

Children need structure, sustenance , and boundaries growing up, and a firm consistent parent provides that.

There is much written about the emotional immaturity of a PWBPD and it would make sense to approach them at their level.

This works also when children are young. However if they don't have BPD they eventually outgrow their parent with BPD.

Over time, my father used what worked for him in relation to my mother. Eventually the sound of an emotional woman triggered this response. But the voice sometimes didn't come from my mother but from me. I recall a time as a teen when I felt I was emotionally older than she was. I was parentified at that point having taken on the role of caretaker to her.

Yet my concerns were dismissed by my father. Just another emotional female. He acted like I was attacking him. Sometimes he would accidentally yell at me calling me by my mother's name.

Unfortunately as he got older he continued to react this way to the voice of an adult female in his life, but it wasn't his BPD wife. It was me.

It doesn't affect me if anyone here considers my perspective beyond that of an emotional female , but it might one day affect a daughter. If an arsenal is necessary in a marriage - please just be sure it's aimed at the target you choose.

[formflier]

For example, I pointed out that Mrs. FF might have been embarrassed to be without dinner money at the church.

If you had said something like, "Well, her embarrassment was not my concern. I wanted to be consistent with my boundaries," 

Good point... .I should have addressed it. 

There are some overriding principles at stake here.

Ultimately:  We are not responsible for the emotions of others... .or more specifically... .we are not responsible for helping them to manage their emotions.

(Please note:  That doesn't mean I shouldn't "appropriately try to support her emotions"

In my world, once you get to boundaries stage... .their emotions aren't of concern.  Boundaries versus emotion:  Boundaries win. 

Oh... .here is the reason I haven't asked if the kids got fed. 

It's not that I don't care.  Given history, asking stuff like that is pitching a fastball to my wife to start b___ing again.  If I take the attitude that she is an adult with resources and can solve her own problems (especially those that she created herself)... .I shouldn't need to check with her.

If she brings it up I would talk to her about it, up until point she tried to reopen the argument.

Hope that makes sense.

FF

[formflier]

The Daniel in the Lion's Den analogy got my attention because Daniel was a righteous man who found himself surrounded by lions potentially about to attack, but God was on his side.
 

Correct on Daniel.  I didn't think deeply about the analogy.  We just got done with it at church, so it was on my mind.

I know that you guys are on my side and there is much in this thread that I've been able to take and "sharpen" myself with. 

I don't feel attacked at all... .again... .it was for a chuckle... .nothing I thought deeply about.

The only place in the entire thread that I felt a bit... ."ticked" about was a reference to me "getting" sex. (when actually it was a lot of work... and kinda freaked me out)  Granted... I hadn't explained the entire story.  I'm not at all ticked now.

You guys know me... .speak your mind plainly and directly and I'll sort out what helps.  If you think I've missed a point... .speak up (which you have).


FF

[formflier]

  I’m assuming you were an officer, which would make it even more applicable.
 

Yep... .had two commanding officer tours and a couple civilian jobs after that were I was CEO type.  So, lots of thinking about organizing people... .creating structure... .etc etc.


To KateCat's question about what to do now... .  I suspect that will be item of discussion in P for several weeks.  I don't see good solution. 

Establishing some sort of feedback loop (pathway) to mentor or those advising (mentoring) my wife is a good idea... .but who knows how that would work out.

My take on why my wife will only counsel with a mentor is that the mentor is a lay person and I suspect somehow my wife thinks she can "buffalo" them and end up with no real changes.

Or... .that she can do a lot of activity there and then "poof" everything will magically change with no sustained hard effort or accountability.

Very judgmental of me... .I know.  But that is what it looks like to me.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Oh... .here is the reason I haven't asked if the kids got fed. 

It's not that I don't care.  Given history, asking stuff like that is pitching a fastball to my wife to start b___ing again.  If I take the attitude that she is an adult with resources and can solve her own problems (especially those that she created herself)... .I shouldn't need to check with her.

If she brings it up I would talk to her about it, up until point she tried to reopen the argument.

Hope that makes sense.


Makes total sense to me. You don't want to be opening up a can of worms.

[Cat Familiar]

My take on why my wife will only counsel with a mentor is that the mentor is a lay person and I suspect somehow my wife thinks she can "buffalo" them and end up with no real changes.

Or... .that she can do a lot of activity there and then "poof" everything will magically change with no sustained hard effort or accountability.

Very judgmental of me... .I know.  But that is what it looks like to me.


I don't think it's judgmental, rather it's observational from long experience.

[Notwendy]

FF, that was from me, and I don't have BPD, and I can't speak for your wife, but in perhaps a similar way that you felt put off being expected to give her money when she wasn't nice to you, my H was not nice to me but still expected me to cook dinner, clean up on my own, put the kids to bed and provide *benefits* because- well he worked hard supporting the family. Basically, I felt like a paid employee with benefits. There's another word for that as well, I am aware.

Well, I was co-dependent, but another reason for my default was that the fighting between us was causing issues with the kids, they were scared and anxious and I recall my own childhood and didn't want to put them through that. If dinner was cooked ( I cooked for them anyway) and he got what he wanted, the home remained more peaceful.

Yes, sex is a good thing and women can enjoy it too. But being co-dependent, my main motivator was not love or desire , but fear, and in that way, I contributed to the destruction of my relationship by doing this to keep the peace.

Sex and money were inflammable topics in my parent's marriage, and also in mine. They are emotionally laden and mean different things to different people. I have since learned that if I am angry at someone, it is very hard to feel desire towards them. I am well aware of sex as a glue between married people and the benefit of it, yet also aware of how we can warp one of the most meaningful things between a couple when our relationship is dysfunctional.

So it wasn't so much as an accusation as statement about something that can be inflammatory. Someone might think "hey things are OK" if there is sex but if there are issues, the issues don't go away.

I think in general the fact that this is still a part of your marriage is a very good thing considering how sex is often a situation that is affected by dysfunction.

Actually, I think the absence of sex in a marriage is the most destructive thing to do. It is one reason I continued it even when things were at their worst. IMHO, to not do it would be far worse. But the emotional consequences for me of feeling like an unloved sex provider now that things have improved in my marriage ( thank goodness)  are still challenges for me to deal with.

[Notwendy]

I also add that the decision to reduce the conflict for the sake of the kids is not something I regret at all. I think it was influenced by how I grew up. I think there could have been ways to deal with conflict better, but at the time, I had no idea what, and the yelling at night was scary and disruptive to them. I also was able to be present for them as a mom which was most meaningful to me- also considering how I grew up- I wanted my kids to have a mom. Through dealing with co-dependency, I learned better skills to deal with the relationship.

Sex, money, religion, are huge things. Money is a necessity. Sex is a gift. Religion a path, but I am simply in awe of how we can make a mess out of these things in a dysfunctional relationship.

[Verbena]

I think it's time to shift the focus from managing your wife's mental illness to protecting your children. 

They need to experience a home free from the chaos your wife creates, even if it's only fifty percent of the time.  They longer they are subjected to this same dysfunctional dynamic, the more damage is being done. 

 

[teapay]

Inquiries and concerns regarding the welfare of children are good, because dependent welfare is one of the most important considerations.  In fact, it is one of the most important considerations of the teapay protocol and is strongly factored into the method.  However, it doesn’t trump the health of the male non husband and father in a sustained way.  That would be a serious breach of the protocol because it would compromise and limit the father’s freedom of action to ultimately benefit the children in the long run. A system where the welfare of dependents out weights or compromises the welfare of the benefactor can not be sustained.   So, yes, the concern is well founded, but addressed by the method.

[formflier]

Feel free to keep going in this thread... .probably best to limit discussion here to self respect and the "ff happy meal deal"  (that's better than "supper caper"... .right?"

I've started new threads on "the way forward" and another thread on "my nice wife showing back up"

You know that I'm going to say... .  "Poof"... .all the bad stuff never happened.

FF

[KateCat]

teapay, I find all that you say cogent and convincing. Yet like Verbena, I sense that the "long run" seems to have run already. This situation appears to have been one of instability and strife for nearly ten years, if I read formflier's history correctly.

In other words, this--exactly this--situation that the psychologist has characterized as unstable--has been and continues to be the children's experience growing up. I can't see it as anything but traumatizing and destined to have life-long effects on each child.

The teapay protocol is a sturdy, practicable one, I think. If applied in time and with the guidance of mental health professionals.  

I fear being offensive to formflier here, but the present situation appears grim, with all family members suffering. And I think formflier understands and is working hard with the psychologist.

[Verbena]

It would be interesting to know what the children would tell a therapist if they felt safe enough from their mother's wrath to speak freely. I suspect most, if not all of them, either need help now or will in the future to sort out their feelings about what they have been witnessing.

[formflier]

I fear being offensive to formflier here, but the present situation appears grim, with all family members suffering. And I think formflier understands and is working hard with the psychologist.

Please don't fear any offense... .say it the way you see it.  I want to look at all angles.  I think I will try to get another thread started to give history (high points) of where we are at now.

My initial reaction to thinking about this is that yes... .right now is grim.  Compared to 4 years ago... .this is sipping a cold drink on a sunny beach. 

But... .let's examine that in another thread.

FF

[KateCat]

Hey, don't make me list everything you've written about here in the last four years . . . because I can. 

[Notwendy]

Verbena, it is an interesting question. We kids were raised to not speak about it, and if we were, we were invalidated by both parents, and other adults like my mother's FOO. We soon learned there was little point in speaking to people who either didn't believe us or punished us when we did.

It does help to speak to a therapist-as it is someone who actually can hear and see them. How much more powerful would it have been for my father to hear me and see me. That's a hard line to walk as a spouse, you don't want to triangulate. I think this is where a therapist can play a role as a neutral person. But a parent can still listen and validate the feelings " I understand this is scary for you and I will find someone you feel safe to talk to"

[ArleighBurke]

Wow this thread has exploded! When I last checked, FF asked about having Males weigh in... .so I'm back!

I want to talk about the night time sex. I understand FF you say you "went slow" and waited for her to "come with you", but I can COMPLETELY see this being abuse of power again.

It has been suggested that your actions denying her money at the church was a power play. So i can understand that when she came home she was "compliant" - sitting with you, cuddling, going along with whatever you wanted. In HER mind, she probably had no choice.

One of the hardest lessons I had to learn was listening to my gut, and stopping myself from pushing for sex when she really didn't want it - even when it "appears" like she was saying yes. 95% of the time that I listen to my gut i am right. And I think the way you check is with WORDS.

Perhaps there was conversation, but you don't talk about any on the couch with your wife and that is a problem for me. Without telling her where you are at, without opening up, she is guessing. Would it be in you to say: "I'm sorry that things happened at the church today the way they did. I understand I probably made you feel upset and annoyed, possibly even embarrased. I want to move on from that. I would love to cuddle with you on the couch for a while and chat. How was church?"

This is NOT JADEing - no mention of why you did anything. It is OPEN - I truely believe you ARE sorry about the interaction (sorry that it happenned, not sorry for your own behaviour). Because this statement is open, it invites her to talk. Possibly she will still stay silent and just be compliant, but I suspect she will talk. Then YOU need to decide based on what she says whether she is still "scared of you" or whether she is OK.

And if it's taking ages for her to "respond" to you making sex moves then she probably isn't interested! Again: "Honey I'd love to make love with you, and I'm getting some feedback that you are interested, but I'm also getting the feeling that you don't want to. Where are you at?". This is the hardest thing to say because she's probably going to say no! Just be man enough to accept the no response, say something loving/reassuring then go to sleep cuddling her.

I think you are in the stage I was in about 12 months ago - the "war" stage as you say. It's a natural place to be - but you need to decide whether to leave or stay.

[Notwendy]

Thanks for this explanation ArleighBurke. I think it is valuable- not to blame FF or other people for doing "what comes naturally" if approached physically. The situation you described- sex without resolving issues- went on for years in my marriage.

Money and sex were huge issues between my parents and going into marriage, I was very aware of how using either for power/control or as a weapon could cause serious harm to the relationship. I was quite devastated when similar problems showed up in mine. I don't think my H did it intentionally so much as naively. I know that both partners contribute to the dysfunction, but I had seen the dangers of these and knew not to. I can see where others might not have witnessed their potentially destructive force and so naively caused damage to their relationships.

What is the difference between a spouse and an employee? I think in a traditional marriage- there can be expectations and agreements- but these involve maturity and communication, and other intangibles that are difficult in a dysfunctional marriage. Money and sex are commodities and how they are used affects the relationship. Misuse of either- by either spouse- can erode it.

[formflier]

Just so you guys know:  The sex with my wife a couple days (was it 1 day later?) after the church supper thing was totally new territory.

She can be a bit on the quieter side, but usually there is a a clear verbal indication of what she wants when she is seeking me out.  As you guys can probably guess... .I'm pretty straightforward when I'm interested.

I knew she was likely raw from the supper thing.  So had given a couple gentle "bids" to let her know I was "leaning in" to the r/s.  Several were verbal.  Once she sat on the couch with me and kinda "buried" her head in my neck/shoulder area I realized that "something" was up.

Big picture:  We certainly went over and hour and likely close to 2 hours without her speaking a word to me.   Then... post sex... .she laughs big-time about something S13 did earlier that day.  I did consider saying something like "I'm not going to proceed unless you tell me what you want... ."  but figured it would be "not letting her be her."

I also wanted to be careful to not come of as "demanding"... .wanted her to feel "safe".  That was a reason I wanted to wait until she was giving clear indications that she wanted to move to next stage.

I pretty much made that evening up as it went along.  Zero frame of reference.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

I think I missed some of Arliegh Burkes questions.

Many times when my wife is quieter she will usually straight up tell me to "hush and get busy... " or other direction of what to do with my mouth... .other than talk.

Turndowns from either of us are very rare. 

My P has described her behavior as "hyper-sexual" and... .in a grandmotherly kinda of way... .chuckles at me.  Ask's if it would be believable to the 20 year old me that in my 40s I would be saying that I get "too much" sex and if given the choice would rather have a conversation... .than "the act".


Also given NotWendy's list of "emotionally laden" things... .my sex life is the "least dysfunctional".

I used to think that our religious life was only slightly nuanced in our differences... .and honestly... .I think she changes positions on issues just to be contrary or to avoid intimacy.  The intimacy of a warm conversation about God's love.  (I can totally understand how a person with a poor sense of self would want to avoid conversations about how special and unique they are.)

Money will likely be dysfunctional for the rest of our marriage with me putting up boundaries to limit her destructive capability.  And her banging into those boundaries.

Kids:  I'm going to start a new post on this.  Likely will be focus on my P visit today.  Been thinking about how to model myself after livednlearned to focus on kids... .at KateCat's behest.

More to come.

FF

[KateCat]

Good work, formflier.

This psychologist doesn't mince words, does she?

My P has described her behavior as "hyper-sexual"

Do you think she sees this as a significant component of the family's dynamics?

ADDED: Would it help to ask the psychologist if she used this term in its "clinical" meaning? Or maybe there is no other meaning . . .

[formflier]

This psychologist doesn't mince words, does she?
 

Nope... and oddly enough... .you realize you just got told something big, but it's kinda ok.

I think my P can generally predict how my wife with perceive things. So, I'm very interested in her take on the sex a after the supper thing.


I'm going to ask her to help me prioritize today.

Then... .there is going to have to be a comparison of the priority list... with what is doable.

One of the things that attracts me to a heavier focus on family devotions as a time for me to teach healthy emotional behavior is that

1.  The rules are clear cut.
2.  They aren't my rules... .so it is easier for me to validate and "be there for my wife"
3.  It is area I enjoy and I think this can get done with relatively little energy expenditure from me and minimal fighting.

[Cat Familiar]

Your wife being "hypersexual" reminds me of an acquaintance I knew long ago, who I now suspect was BPD. She too was hypersexual and it seemed to be her source of power over men. Unlike most women, for whom the emotional component needs to be settled before they felt sexually expressive, with her, the order seemed to be reversed.

She needed to be sexual in order to get her emotions settled. I wonder if that is what is happening with your wife.

[formflier]

She needed to be sexual in order to get her emotions settled. I wonder if that is what is happening with your wife.

Yes... .then there is a period of closeness after sex where my wife is kind and happy.  Off she goes to sleep.  I suspect she wakes up and ruminates over things.  Next morning the pissed off version gets out of bed.

There are some mornings (last several) where she will stay and snuggle in bed... .her mood is generally better on those days.

But... .back to Cat's observation.  My wife seems interested in screwing my brains out when I have no interest and most other women wouldn't give their man the time of day... .because of conflict.

Granted... .many times I blame her... .and then she twists things in her mind to become victim... .then come after me sexually.

Not sure if there is a way forward or something in this pattern I can use to stabilize things. 

Other than making sure I stay stretched out and keep my back strong... .

FF

[empath]

Sex is sometimes a tool to make it 'feel' like there is a good relationship when there isn't. It can be part of the push-pull dynamic (or mixed messages as my h's P tells him); it can also be a way that a person can maintain power over the other. There are powerful hormones that are released that can make a person feel good (a kind of 'high' - for a limited amount of time - and feel like they have bonded even when they aren't. It can also hook the other person into the cycle.

Using sex to manipulate and control others is wrong on so many levels. That's not what it's meant for.

[formflier]

My guess is that my wife falls into the category of "I feel better and feel bonded" during sex.

If you guys thought my boundary on my wallet was tight... .threats and manipulation is like fort knox.

Anything that smacks of you better do this or else... .creates and exit by me.  Subject is closed.  I can only remember a couple times when my wife overtly tried to use sex to control or bargain.  

Luckily... .threats are pretty much in the past.

As I reflect on this post... .I do think my wife uses it as a "hook."  Can also be looked at as "cheering me up".  I was kinda down a few weeks ago (don't remember why)... .but didn't express much interest.  In fact, turned her down for sex.  She was kind about it. 

2 days later I was trying to relax and rest my back when she marches in the bedroom, takes of my clothes... her clothes and left me wondering what just happened to me.  So either making sure I was still "hooked"... or perhaps a genuine effort to cheer me up


FF