Continuing the self respect and open warfare thread

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Continuation from

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=299238.50

More later

FF

[formflier]

Continuation from

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=299238.50

More later

FF

[Notwendy]

OK I will continue it... .

Verbena asks:
I've never understood how the sex continues after these episodes as if nothing happened.



Well, I wonder how sex is expected after this incident. While I understand the idea of not giving money to someone mistreating you, when it comes to a marriage, certain things have emotional components to it.

Money is one of them. So is sex.

Both can be used as power and currency in a relationship. Both can be used to hurt and control someone else.

If one wants to consider the old fashioned marital agreement, the man provided financial support and in return, got a servant with benefits. Those of us who have been on the dependent side of such a relationship know the deal. The underlying emotion behind " you better act like I want you to or the kids don't eat" to a dependent woman may get you her services. Some people may say, this is OK, we are married, but it isn't OK.

Using money as a boundary enforcer in a marriage has emotional consequences. Yes, it works, but it sends the message to a wife that she is a paid servant. If dependent children are involved, then she may feel she has little choice other than to be one.

[Notwendy]

I think this is the main point to the concern about what happened:

Boundaries are fine, not tolerating being mistreated is fine but we have ways to enforce our boundaries without doing damage to the relationship.

But some things should not be used as weapons, control, or power in an intimate relationship because they are emotionally laden and so using them affects the very heart of the relationship. Some of these are: money, sex, religion.

In military terms: withholding money for dinner at the church for the family- including the children ( who are innocent in this situation ) was a huge weapon. There could be considerable collateral damage when using big guns to fight off annoying missiles.

[formflier]

This conversation is beneficial... .but... my guess is that most guys that might think similarly to me see this as ":)aniel in the Lion's Den"... .chuckle at my plight and move on.

I'm not arguing or mad... .but I do want to point out a HUGE bias here.  And I'll say it plainly.

Bunch of pissed off woment saying after all that "he GOT" sex

Yes you got sex, but as I mentioned before, when one feels powerless in a situation, they can "behave" on the surface just to keep things as stable as possible and keep their feelings to themselves.

Anyone here think it possible I "gave" sex to my wife as an act of love.  Anyone here think that it's possible after all that ... .that my sexual interest in my wife might be kinda low?

Yes... .I didn't have time to give full rundown of what it looked like.

I was very... .VERY... .careful not to push.  Gave very gentle "bids" to her that I was interested and waited at that stage for as long as it took for her so show some interest at moving to the next stage.  

I was tired and would much rather have gone to sleep and not fooled with it at all, but I put on my gameface and did the best I could.  

No effort to be salacious here.

Perhaps 10 min or so of snuggling in bed fully clothed.  She put her hand on my face (her bid)... .I put my hand on hers... .rubbed her arm a bit.  Maybe 5 min of that.  She adjusts a bit closer to me (another bid)... .I hugged her a bit tighter... kept up the arm stroking.

She raises her head makes move to kiss... .I respond.  That goes for a while... .she offers her neck... .I proceed.  Even though she is responding well... .I don't "take the lead" because last think I want her to think is that I am "pushing for sex".

I am open to opinions if this is the right approach.  Note:  I have no memory of ever experiencing the "no speaking thing"... .so I'm a bit in new ground here and making it up as I go.

Finally she is worked up pretty good... .sits up... .takes off her clothes.  I do the same.  Back to necking.  Wait for her to pull me on top.  Wait for her to pull me to start... .you know... .

I made sure to take care of her first... .then had my orgasm.  Was out pretty quick after that.

OK... .need opinions on this too

Before I fall asleep... .she starts laughing uncontrollably.  

I ask (very gently) if she wants to share the thought... . She says that S13 was a "mess" today (meaning awkward).  Backstory:  S13 walked up to dinner table with plate of spaghetti... in the process of trying to sit down... .all the contents of his plate end up on floor.  :)og springs to action.  It was a funny moment.

OK... .realize that was first she spoke in long time.  10 minutes or so of silence.  Cat was making lots of noise eating (crunching) a couple rooms away... .it sounded weird.  My wife says "hey... what's that noise"  It did sound unusual... .so I went to check.  Verified it was the cat.  Back to bed.

She snuggled with me and went to sleep.  

There is lots of new territory.

FF

[formflier]

But some things should not be used as weapons, control, or power in an intimate relationship because they are emotionally laden and so using them affects the very heart of the relationship. Some of these are: money, sex, religion.
 

Just to make sure there is proper perspective.  We had a totally different money situation up until about 3 years ago.  Everything joint.

Then she wanted her own account... .which was fine by me.  It was a precursor to her taking $30k in joint funds and making them her own and then distributing much of those funds to her family for "work they have done" and are owed for. (in their minds)

When I asked if the work was for "profit" a business partnership or if the were "hourly employees"... .the answer came back "they were family" and needed it.

There was an apology (of sorts in writing... she refuses to speak about it) from my wife about this a couple months ago.  No money has been returned.  The continue to make noise about other vast sums they are owed.  Many of the things they say they are owed for are things I didn't want to happen but hey did anyway "as a favor... .don't worry about it... "

So... .discussions about money are toxic in our family.  She has a budget and funds available (way more than enough... .plenty of money to "blow".  She also makes her own money.

If she wants more... .she asks kindly and is thankful.  If she is not happy with outcome... .her remedy is to manage the funds she is responsible for in a better manner.  

FF

[flourdust]

This conversation is beneficial... .but... my guess is that most guys that might think similarly to me see this as ":)aniel in the Lion's Den"... .chuckle at my plight and move on.

Well, I'll add one more data point... .I'm a guy, and I agree with the women who have been posting on your thread.

Frankly, I have no idea what to make of your interaction (including but not limited to the sex) after the incident at church. All I can see is that both of you seem to be pretending it didn't happen. You've been spending a lot of time on here talking about and rationalizing your behavior. We have no insight into your wife's mind, so she might be equally preoccupied with the event ... .or not.

What troubles me most as a father is that you are putting your boundaries and rules ahead of the well-being of your kids. You have made a number of justifications for this, mostly using rationalizations to say that it was your wife who put the kids in the middle of this by not following your rules, thus forcing you to robotically enforce your boundaries.

I have seen this pattern in other incidents you've related. While you've demonstrated that you are willing to put the kids' safety first in extreme circumstances (i.e., the spanking/beating event), you otherwise default to focusing on your interactions with your wife and your boundaries, regardless of the impact on the kids. In most of your stories, the kids come across as barely present pieces of furniture, just passively witnessing whatever hostile dynamic you and your wife are acting out.

This isn't healthy for them, to put it mildly.

As a father with a BPDw (separated and out of the house now, thank God), my biggest struggle was balancing protecting myself vs. protecting my kid. The kid usually won, which meant more stress for me and more bad behavior that I tolerated. It also meant that I recognized that a child has absolutely no choice about whether or not to be exposed to these behaviors, and it's the job of responsible adults to put their needs first.

You need to give some thought to this, and I certainly recommend you raise this issue with your P. I will add a practical note -- if you do end up in any kind of legal or social services entanglement, they will not give a flying fig about your boundaries, your dignity, whether or not you get "respect," etc. They will care about who is taking care of the kids' needs. Right now, that is not you.

[chump]

I'm very interested in how invested a few of the women on this string are in convincing you that you need to change your perspective.  Multiple posts, many bites at the apple, trying to change your mind.  I'm uncomfortable trying too hard to change anyone's mind, because beyond offering my point of view, if they don't come around to my perspective I quickly end up becoming too invested in how another person thinks, feels or acts, and boundaries start to get fuzzy.  I don't think that's healthy.

You're right, FF, to at least one man on this thread, you seem to being ganged up on.  You have articulately laid out your perspective, and pretty gently highlighted how gendered the subject of money, sex, attitude, etc can be, and how loaded.  You have opened yourself to this input which I think all of us respect, and you don't need my help, you're doing fine.

Interesting, I have never heard you describe money as a negotiating tool for power in the relationship.  I heard you draw a boundary around disrespectful behavior.  Your wife has an income, her own bank account, plus a joint account you share.  This isn't some epic power struggle over money, this was a small episode in the larger context of almost constant disrespect, contempt really, being exhibited by your wife, and in front of the children.  You made good faith efforts to lighten the mood, and failing that, quietly withdrew.

This reminds me of a thread from a few months back when you had retreated behind a locked door when your wife was on a rampage.  There were a few people who actually suggested that the simple act of retreating to safety was somehow a provocative act, escalating a situation, and that perhaps you should instead listen to your wife's hostile provocations, in other words just "take it."

As I mentioned in the other thread, if the gender roles were reversed, and a man was acting this way toward a woman, making demands, threats, accusations, insults, and a group of men suggested that the woman should stay in the situation, just take it, try not to upset him further, give him money, or sex, or whatever... .hopefully we'd all be outraged.

Of course, as a man, I clearly don't get it, right?  Perhaps even framing this as a double standard is missing the point.  Perhaps double standards are just the way it is between men and women, but I see your choices here as healthy, boundaried, modelling appropriate self-respect to your children, and letting your wife sit with some of the consequences of her choices and behaviors.

Chump.

[KateCat]

I see your wife's behaviors as clearly abusive and, indeed, fitting U.S. definitions of domestic violence. I also see you as not willing to leave this situation of domestic abuse. You intend, still, to master it.

Your biblical counselor was a bull in a china shop, but he did correctly identify the undercurrent of unremitting pressure and daily potential for explosion in your situation.

I'm female and would agree with everything flourdust has written on this thread. To me it is concerning to think you believe you have things under control in some way. And that the kids are OK.

[Cat Familiar]

Chump wrote:
I'm very interested in how invested a few of the women on this string are in convincing you that you need to change your perspective.  Multiple posts, many bites at the apple, trying to change your mind.  I'm uncomfortable trying too hard to change anyone's mind, because beyond offering my point of view, if they don't come around to my perspective I quickly end up becoming too invested in how another person thinks, feels or acts, and boundaries start to get fuzzy.  I don't think that's healthy.


I'm certain that I fall into the category he mentions of being "invested." Frankly, I doubt that anyone would have an easy time changing FF's mind and that is not my concern.

What I do care about is that we here, are all at different stages, having been confused and resourceless about dealing with a loved one with BPD. Most of us have used ineffective strategies which have made things worse in our relationships, despite our best intentions.
We are anonymous here and that allows us to honestly express our situations and our deepest struggles. By doing so, others who may have  different experiences, can share their own perspective and help us see our situation in a new light.

Regarding FF's situation with his wife, the women who have commented here are attempting to point out common triggers that we have observed, often from personal experience, in male to female relationships. There's no denying that we only have a personal understanding of life lived from our own gender, unless someone from the opposite gender can explain their perspective, which may be quite different, on a particular issue.

I'm not expecting FF to change his opinion about how the church evening happened nor his choice about boundaries. I would like him to imagine how his actions might have appeared to his wife. Also I would like him to think about what consequences his choice might have had for her that evening.

That said, it's a different matter to be codependent and try to control or regulate someone else's behavior. That, too many of us have tried with our pwBPD and found to be not only ineffective, but toxic. What I do think is valuable is to be able to perceive someone else's perspective in a way where we're gathering information but not invested in outcome. (Observe, not absorb)

And that is the point that I've been trying to make. I think as much as FF has cared about his wife's feelings, he has shied away from truly trying to understand her perspective.

I don't feel that I'm making this distinction well. I hope someone else can run with this and explain it better.

[formflier]

I don't believe they are under control... .and do agree this is not healthy.

When chaos reigns... .go with what you know.  Structure.  Something firm that doesn't move.

If you think that machine like... .I can see that.

Do decrease chaos... .decrease variables.

I will discuss with P today.

I may or may not master this... .but I will try.  I am on undecided board for a reason... .

FF

[KateCat]

If your psychologist agrees that the situation is unstable and exhausting, would she advocate a therapeutic separation at this time?

[Cat Familiar]

Flourdust wrote: I recognized that a child has absolutely no choice about whether or not to be exposed to these behaviors, and it's the job of responsible adults to put their needs first.


As a child, I got triangulated into my BPD mother's conflicts with my father and it created a lot of fear and insecurity for me to find myself in the middle, not wanting to alienate either parent. Also it was easy for me to think that it was my fault that they were fighting. (That thought is probably more likely with an only child--no one to commiserate with or share the blame.)

I wouldn't have had any comments about this topic had FF only been in the presence of his wife, then dropped her off at church with no money for dinner. I would have thought that would have been an appropriate response to her nasty behavior.

But it gets complicated when you add kids to the mix. They see Mom's reaction to the situation, maybe feel embarrassed themselves because they don't have dinner money and maybe Mom says something unpleasant about Dad to them. Kids remember humiliation. They don't want to be different from other kids.

To reiterate what I said in a previous comment: FF may have won the battle, but he's losing the war.

[flourdust]

I wouldn't have had any comments about this topic had FF only been in the presence of his wife, then dropped her off at church with no money for dinner. I would have thought that would have been an appropriate response to her nasty behavior.

Exactly. My last year with my wife would have been very different if we didn't have a child.

[empath]

FF, I get how toxic money discussions are; they are explosive in my house, too. For my own sanity, I needed to separate my own account - and let my husband be 'in charge' of the finances because I get too angry when he doesn't stick to the budget that we have agreed upon and overextends us with things bought on credit. I can't even have a discussion about our monthly budget with my husband, let alone the status of our loans.

My husband often has problems with projecting a 'budget' and runs out of money between paychecks (and he has multiple sources of paychecks). So, he is out of money frequently these days and asks me if I have any - often because he needs to get food.  

I also have a daughter who 'doesn't know what dad might do' - she thinks he is unstable. So, my primary responsibility for her is to provide her with a sense of stability.

All that to say, I can really relate to your desire to draw a boundary around 'your wallet.' I really can. I don't usually give my husband money to bail him out of the financial situation - that would be enabling; right now, that means that he has to pawn some of his 'toys' to pay for our regular living expenses. The exception to my rule is if my daughter needs something (food, school expenses, etc) because her well-being is my top priority - and she usually tells me about her needs before telling my husband, so I pay for it directly.

So, this is not a gendered thing for me - it is a responsibility that I have as a parent, to provide for my child regardless of what my husband is doing. (especially since he is impulsive and emotionally 'labile' Since your general practice was to eat and most often pay for the meal, your decision at the last minute not to didn't give your wife a chance to do something different and more importantly made the children pay for your issue with your wife.

From the length of this discussion, it seems to me that you have doubled down on your position and aren't really open to feedback about your actions; you kind of want us to come around you and say 'atta boy'.

Respect for your wife is hard when she is being like that, but regardless of how she acts, you should at least respect her. Respect for your children's needs for food and security are also very important. And, you know, empathy for your wife and your children was lacking.

From a boundaries perspective, you probably could have given the money to someone who wasn't being disrespectful and demanding (one of the older children could have done that - I would think). There was another option.

Being a good parent sometimes means that we can't enforce the boundary that we would like to have. We make choices to do what's in the best interest of the children, and sometimes we have softer or harder boundaries because of that.

[KateCat]

I wouldn't have had any comments about this topic had FF only been in the presence of his wife, then dropped her off at church with no money for dinner. I would have thought that would have been an appropriate response to her nasty behavior.

I would have found that appropriate too. But that is not what is happening in your family. There is very frequently an audience. And it often includes children.

I believe you are not proud of the way this played out that evening. And that you will do better next time.

[Verbena]

FF, you have been nothing but supportive of me as I shared my struggles with my now ex-husband, so I would never "gang up" on you over this issue about money for food at church.  But I do have real concerns. 

 I stayed for 34 years, far longer than I should have.  The damage done to me  was enormous, far greater than I realized.  The damage done to our kids, one of whom has BPD but is doing very well now, is not really known. 

So, I'll go back to my point about your kids.  I cannot imagine that they are not being severely affected by witnessing all the chaos in your home. It has to feel "normal" to them by now, and that is a scary thought. 

Dealing with your wife, trying to understand your wife, getting counseling with your wife, posting about your wife... .it's like a freaking career with no retirement date in site.

Although there may be lulls in the drama, she isn't getting better.  It's always something and this could go on until one of you die.  I know you believe in "for better or worse";  I did too but finally had to save what sanity I had left and get out. 

I only have two children and they're grown; you have eight and several are very young.  I get that our situations are different, but the bottom line is that the damage is ongoing with no relief in sight for your family. 

Your kids need to be protected from the chaos your wife creates.  They just do. 

[chump]

FF, I completely agree with all the comments expressing concern for your children, and expressing doubts that "managing" your wife is ultimately going to work out for you.  I completely agree.

I left my relationship (no comparison really, not married, no children, etc), even though I really wanted to stay.  The relationship simply could not survive my attempts at healthy relating and boundary setting.  So my bias is you ultimately need to leave an impossible situation, particularly where there's active abuse involved.

To the other posters, My feedback is mostly based on watching FF trying to make impossibly difficult decisions on the fly, essentially almost always under hostile conditions, and trying to remain sane and consistent for his family - both wife and children.

Through that lens, his choices seem almost heroic to me.  Not something I could do, or would recommend anyone do.  And I agree the children must be internalizing some pretty devastating and distorted life lessons about love, trust, family, intimacy, etc.  It just seems to me that FF is remarkably resiliant under these conditions, and is not only not harming his wife or children, is actually modelling a certain kind of sturdy, boundaried consistency that I find admirable.

I personally would have left long ago, but that's another thing altogether.

Chump.

[Notwendy]

I assume I am one of the lions presumed to be pouncing on FF in the den. I don't expect to change anyone's mind, but to share a perspective. Other women are expressing theirs as well . One can consider that we are ganging up, or consider why so many people had similar reactions. Ultimately it is up to everyone reading to decide to accept or discard any advice posted by anyone here.

[formflier]

My goals in this thread.

Is there a stone I left unturned?  Was there another way that I haven't thought about?  Is there another way of thinking about what I did... .that I haven't thought about?

Unfortunately... .I've been at this a while.

Here is what I need help evaluating.

1.  Calling a child over (a 13 year old was the oldest) and handing them a $20. 

I'll tell you that my initial reaction is that would be bad. 

If FF wife tells him no... .now what.  Do we do the "obedience thing" in front of the church that teaches it?

Most likely she would have grumped and just watched... .or flung words.

My first reaction is that this places the 13 year old "in between" our conflict as opposed to "being under" our conflict where the "fallout" drops on him.


I totally understand this is hard on my kids and bad for them. 

On the good better best scale... .I'm trying to see if I need to adjust.

If people don't agree with my decisions... .I'm ok with that. (not trying to be provocative)

So... .how do you think handing a kid a $20 would have gone?

FF

[flourdust]

So... .how do you think handing a kid a $20 would have gone?

Likely, that would have been fine, especially if you had done so with only neutral comments ("Here's the money for dinner." and not tried to manage whatever happened next. Another option would be to give your wife the $20 then leave or decide to sit separately from her.

[Cat Familiar]

Fellow lion reporting for duty here, Notwendy. Actually I think we're merely house kitties, trying to alert a reluctant human to danger ahead.

We are offering a collective insight into the female experience. And the response to the information we are providing seems to be more of what is known and comfortable to the recipient: structure.

Cats spend hours studying their prey. Cats are very sensitive to environmental variables. Cats have requisite variety, meaning they adapt their behavior to the response they get. Cats are not bound by rules and logic. Cats are predictably unpredictable.

It's not a coincidence that women have been compared to cats in literature throughout time. Add BPD to female and you have a wild feral feline that is not easily contained or controlled.

[Cat Familiar]

Another possibility. You could have accompanied them to the church, paid for their meals and left. Simple.

[chump]

Cats spend hours studying their prey. Cats are very sensitive to environmental variables. Cats have requisite variety, meaning they adapt their behavior to the response they get. Cats are not bound by rules and logic. Cats are predictably unpredictable.

It's not a coincidence that women have been compared to cats in literature throughout time. Add BPD to female and you have a wild feral feline that is not easily contained or controlled.

Haha! Excellent! I often compared (privately) my uBPDex to a feral cat.

Chump.

[empath]

My first reaction is that this places the 13 year old "in between" our conflict as opposed to "being under" our conflict where the "fallout" drops on him.

They were already in the firing line as their parents aren't going to pay for their dinner. They were caught in the middle of your adult issues.

So... .how do you think handing a kid a $20 would have gone?

I think it would have been fine. The kids have heard what was going on, and the 13 year old (and maybe the younger ones) knows the implications of your actions - they don't have money for dinner.


The critical issue is that their dinner is paid for in some way -- there are a number of options for that to happen, but it did require you taking the money out of your wallet to do it.


It seems to me that the people who have had children have picked up on the same issue - not just women. Minimizing due to a person's gender is not cool either. The dads have seen it too.

[Harri]

Hey FF.  I am going to respond as a child of a UBPD mother who was very similar to how your wife sounds.  I will admit to being very surprised that it took about 5 pages of the other thread before someone actually wrote about the effect of these situations on the kids.  I am disappointed that the kids were only brought into the discussion as a way of proving the points being made and not as a primary concern from the beginning.  Yes, the focus changed... .eventually.  I am floored that not one person, either with kids of without kids has commented about the following:

1)  When you got home, you heard your wife speaking to the kindergartner with a booming voice.  You then proceeded to leave the home, leave the children in the care of a woman who is speaking to them in a manner you will not accept for your own self and seem to think you are teaching the kids proper behavior.  If that tone is abusive and unacceptable for an adult (that would be you FF) it is abusive and unacceptable for a child to be talked to in that manner.  It is unacceptable to remove yourself from such a situation and leave the kids with her.  IMNSHO of course.

2) at some point in the original thread (I think) you mentioned that you were setting a boundary and teaching the kids that your wife's behavior is unacceptable.  Well, as a kid of, I can tell you that the kids are quite possibly viewing you as abandoning them to the rages of your wife.  this is something I have read in some of your other threads (such as when she is raging and you lock yourself in a room) as well as threads by others here who are married to pwBPD (so you are not alone in this).  It boggles my mind.  Your wife engages in verbal abuse and parental alienation on a regular basis, often using her role as mother and her responsiblility as a person of God to justify her abuse as she tries to 'teach' the kids that certain things are not acceptable.  PA, as hard and as difficult as it is for an adult parent, is devestating to a child and it is child abuse.  FF, my concern is not about how you look in your kids eyes (tho it is important),  Rather I am concerned the kids are getting very bad messages and in essence are being left to deal with two parents who are exhibiting poor parenting behaviors.

3) You ask what else you could have done rather than leave them at the church.  One suggestion would be to turn the car around, drive home, get out and tell the kids you are going to BBQ for them instead and let your wife stay home or go to the church on her own.  another would be to drive home and ask any kids if they want to stay home with you or go with you to a different place for dinner, and let your wife take whoever wants to go to the church.  I am sure there are other options that would not have bewildered the kids, added to their possible perception of you as abandoning them to their angry mother and taking yourself to a place of safety rather than protecting them.

A point that is not about the kids but is still coming from an adult child who grew up in a similar abusive powder keg of a house, is the following:  I would have felt like you were setting me up to look like an ogre if you had bought me a treat and given it to me in front of the kids and then said no the kids could not have any because it was just for mom.  I swear fire would have been shooting out of my eyes at that point and I would have gotten out of the car, taken all the kids and marched them home or called a friend/cab at that point.  And I can promise you there would have been no apology and no sex.  

FF, I want to echo what someone else said.  I do not see this relationship changing for the better in a sustained and consistent way.  I feel for you, I really do.  Yu are in an incredibly difficult position and you are trying your best.  Your openness here is truly inspiring and I learn so much from you.  I respect you greatly and my greatest hope for you is that you get some peace and serenity on a consistent basis.  And yes, I do believe that is possible even with 8 kids!  I think that when you are alone with your kids, you provide them with stability and structure which is very important.  I understand that you are working on being more flexible and perhaps 'softer' with the kids and that is great too.  I just see the dynamic between you and your wife as highly damaging to everyone.

Wishing you peace.

[teapay]

This happened way too fast for you to second guess yourself too much.  She was already dysregulating a bit before she even got in the car.  You tried reducing tension.  I wouldn’t go so far to say you were denying her and controlling her with money. You didn’t roll over and fork out the cash immediately to appease her and she slammed the door and walked away by her own choice.  You didn’t have much chance to kiss her rear-end with validation.  You didn’t slam the door or tell her to go away; she did that knowing she didn't have the money.  This was a church dinner at a church you attend.  It is not like they aren’t going to feed the family or like you are going to stiff the church and not pay later. 

You may have missed an opportunity by not going to the church and joining them after she texted you an apology.  That would have been validating to you and her and would have allowed you to keep your self respect.  But I understand you have feelings also and needed calming time too, so you might not have been ready.  Been there.  Over, nothing to wringing your hands too much on.

[HopefulDad]

FF:

Short term, I suggest telling your wife that being snapped or otherwise belittled in front of the kids has no place in your relationship* and should it happen again, she's on her own whether it's buying dinner, doing a family activity or whatever.  Make it clear this isn't about using money as power over her as she can easily keep her wallet stocked with cash if she feels the need to make a habit out of this behavior.  This is addressing a behavior only, not her thought process behind it.  She's more than entitled to think you're the biggest ahole on earth, but vocalizing it in small or big ways in front of the kids is not allowed.

Long term, I suggest that the two of you seriously address with a professional on how to parent without your marital issues getting in the way.  How to not undermine each other, how to not speak ill of each other to the kids, etc.

And no, if you had to do it all over again, giving the money to one of your kids is not the best idea.  First, you're bringing your kids directly into your problems; Keep the problems between you and your wife.  Second, it's passive aggressive behavior towards your wife.  :)on't do that to her.


* And correcting her behavior in front of the kids also has no place.  Telling her to "ask nicely or no money for you" in front of the kids was the wrong time and place.  Next time say, "Honey, you and I need to have a talk about this in private after the kids go down to bed" and that's the end of it at that moment until you revisit this later in private.

[formflier]

I have choices... .but I also hope you guys understand "why" I have made the choices I have.

What is going on with my kids is horrible.  It looks like sesame street compared to life after divorce with my nieces and nephews.    My wife's sister.

So... .while yes... divorce is an option, there is a long period of getting worse (years) before possible getting better.  

Post divorce and after uninterrupted PA for a couple years my oldest nephew drew pictures of his Dad... .stabbed those pictures with a knife... .has been in therapy since... .for years.  Is pretty much ruined.  Arrests... drugs... .all that.

I do have choices... .I just don't have any that I like.  

Heading to P appointment in a bit.

FF

[HopefulDad]

What is going on with my kids is horrible.  It looks like sesame street compared to life after divorce with my nieces and nephews.    My wife's sister.

So... .while yes... divorce is an option, there is a long period of getting worse (years) before possible getting better.  

Post divorce and after uninterrupted PA for a couple years my oldest nephew drew pictures of his Dad... .stabbed those pictures with a knife... .has been in therapy since... .for years.  Is pretty much ruined.  Arrests... drugs... .all that.

I do have choices... .I just don't have any that I like.

While I understand your extended family's experience with divorce and parental alienation gives you pause, please remember that anecdotes do not equal data.  I think my kids' situation has improved after divorce.  I'm sure plenty in the divorce/legal forum can say the same.

Kids are observant, often for more than we give them credit.  They can start drawing their own conclusions on what's healthy or not by simply being parented two different ways.  What's key is that you push hard for equal custody time because just showing you want to spend time with them does wonders to offset any parental alienation an ex can do.

Anyway, you're not at the divorce stage and may never get to that stage, so just something to file away. 

[Notwendy]

To address Harri's post about the children, I did have concerns but wanted to focus on the incident between FF and his wife.

I too am the child of a mother with BPD who isn't nearly as functional as FF's wife. My mother can't seem to handle most household tasks, raising kids, or a job. For FF's wife to be able to do these things, even with issues, is remarkable to me.

However, I know that conflict can exist even with a functional person with BPD. An incident such as the topic of discussion was a regular occurrence for me growing up along with many other difficult ones. This is why I support FF's trying to establish boundaries and not tolerate abuse. This was not in question.

My point was not what FF wanted to do but the how, and the means. Money is an emotionally laden issue. It can become a point of conflict in a marriage, and a highly volatile one in a dysfunctional marriage. I experienced this both in my FOO and my own marriage.

While FF may have felt like Daniel in the Lion's Den, I think I am actually on his side, not trying to attack him but to point out the possible collateral damage of this incident from my point of view so that next time, there may be more awareness of the issue involved and he may want to try another way to enforce a boundary that is less damaging to a marriage.