Crises and what’s wrong with me

[Ozzie101]

Last night, was one long argument (by phone). H blew up at someone at work and his boss’s idea is that H should come be in the office one week a month to get better integrated because that’s been a little rocky with H fully remote. H is fine with that. Wants me to go with him sometimes. I say, sure, I’m sure I can try to work something out with my supervisor. He hits the roof. No. I should just tell them what I’m going to do and they can deal. Yeah, that’s not how my office works.

Anyway, later he got a call from his mom’s neighbor telling him that she had a medical episode a few days ago. He tells me (again, over the phone because he left the house before I got home from work). He asks what he should do. I said if I were in his place I’d try to call and probably go up there (2.5 hours away). We got cut off. I called back. Left a message. He texted he’d call back.

Over an hour passes. By the time I talk to him, he’s up there. He talked to his mom and she was fine. So what should he do? I suggested he stay the night. He said no, he wants to come home. Ok. Come home. Then he gets angry at me for being insensitive and telling him to come home instead of staying with his mom.

As he often does, he focused on money. His mom has me in her will so even if something happens to him first, I’ll be taken care of. Says my family wouldn’t do that for him. No, probably not. He’s an only child and her sole heir. And she and I have a great relationship. He barely tolerates my parents, we have no kids together and they have five kids and seven grandkids as heirs. If I died first, I doubt they’d leave anything to him. Not that I said that. He told me he was going to change his mom’s will and his insurance in favor of his ex-wife (who his mom hated). Fine. I really don’t care.

My more measured, diplomatic approach to things and my need to think things through before acting drives him nuts.

He then turns it to my uncle who killed himself three years ago and criticized how I got the news and hurried to see my dad and grandmother. Yet I’m insensitive about his father who killed himself (before I knew H) because my reaction to hearing about him wasn’t as emotional. He seemed bothered that I went to see family instead of turning to him for support — he was the first person I called after getting the news and I leaned on him and shared with him that evening when I got home. Another uncle died in an accident before I was born and H made disparaging remarks about him and how he died.

Looking back, I’m angry. And at myself for just letting him talk. I knew getting angry at him or changing the subject would have set him off more so I just went to my happy place and shut up.

This morning he’s apologetic. Says he needs to work on handling things better and not getting worked up. Uh, yeah, I’d say so. Of course, with him “taking a break” from therapy, I’m not sure how that will happen.

I’m frustrated with myself for getting angry and fighting back and probably escalating parts of the argument. I’m frustrated with him for taking his fears and guilt and anger out on me. I’m tired of being accused of things that I didn’t do or weren’t “wrong.” I’m tired of him bringing up things I said or reactions I had years ago.

I can see where it’s coming from. He has a lot of insecurities with work and with us. He’ll admit it himself that he pushes me away because deep down he believes I won’t stay. Could turn into a self-fulfilling prophesy. He also has a lot of unresolved feelings and problems from the past (particularly his parents). I try to validate. I try to be understanding and get at what’s underneath. But it seems everything I try fails. I try to build closeness in the good times, but lately we can’t go more than a couple of days without an episode.

I know this is all part of the deal but it’s been worse lately and I’m having more and more trouble managing. And I just really start to wonder: is there something wrong with me? Am I doing this to him? Am i really a selfish horrible thoughtless person?

[jordan_bg]

Ozzie, I don't know you , but i am going to assume that you are NOT a horrible selfish person. I can say this pretty confidentally because your conflict (that wasn't even a conflict!) could have been line for line a conversation i've had with my husband. He talke me in circles to the point where by the end i don't know which way is up and I'm half-conviced its at least mostly my fault.
When he can't get a reaction out of me right away (when i'm trying my damdest to respond like all the books say!) he'll start picking at me in other ways COMPLETELY unrealted to the problem at hand and often ahving to do with my deceased mother or my parents divorce, or my realtionship with my dad, etc, anything he can use against me really, any point he knows i'm vulnerable. Even though i know he's doing it out of insecurity or whatever it still always hits home.
I can also relate to what you said about the good times being too few and far between. When there's little to balance out the bad, it gets really really hard. I always liken those episodes to getting the wind knocked out of me, I need sufficient time to recover afterwards. I'm sorry I don't have any solid advice or words of encouragement, I just wanted to let you know that I completely understand and it is not your fault. NOT. YOUR. FAULT.
While we all have to accept at least 50% of the responsability for our relationships, we don't have to believe that we are bad or selfish people just because we have human reactions.

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, jordan!

It is difficult, especially in those moments. I’m sorry you experience something similar. It’s amazing sometimes the mental acrobatics they can perform in their arguments. The other night (another moody night for him), he was angry that his ex had bought a brand new bat for their son for Little League when H had already bought him one. (Ex spoils the kid rotten but that’s a whole other story.) somehow, he equated that to the fact that my nephew plays competitive tennis. “It’s exactly the same thing, isn’t it?” I’m still scratching my head over that one.

Anyway, H was apologetic and back to his usual self last night. Lots of apologies. Lots of “it’s not your fault” “I don’t know why I do that” “I need to find a way to manage my anger and not lash out at you because it’s never about you.” I’m not so quick to recover or to regenerate those warm fuzzy feelings.

Since he’s back to baseline (for now), I’m going to lay out my plan: if he’s upset about something, I’m happy to have a conversation. He’s been good lately about leaving the house when he’s in a mood. But from now on, I will not text, talk on the phone or be around him when he’s like that. If we can have a genuine conversation, great. If not, either he or I will be somewhere else. Phone off. He’ll be supportive of that — until he’s upset and needs someone to lash out at. But this way I’m protecting myself and my feelings about him.

It’s something I should have done long ago but I’m afraid I can be a little slow.

I also need to work on self-care. I’ve gotten lax about that. What do you do to “fill your cup” so to speak?

[formflier]

Hey Ozzie101

I had really bad day a few days ago as well..just the weirdest conversations.  When I reflected back...I could have done a number of things differently and my day would have been different.

Are you far enough removed to do that with your day/long argument?  What do you think now that you read your story again?

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

It’s something I should have done long ago but I’m afraid I can be a little slow.

I also need to work on self-care. I’ve gotten lax about that. What do you do to “fill your cup” so to speak?

When we know better, we do better.  You've recognized a problem and have identified a potential solution.  Good job!

For self-care, I am a BIG fan of making yourself a list of all of the things that make you smile, and then doing at least one thing on the list.

My list includes everything from "paint my nails" to "go on vacation".  Some nights, I only have the energy to go outside and breathe in the scent of the gardenias for a few minutes. But I've at least proven to myself that I'm valuable and deserve that bit of pampering.

Keep adding to your list as you think of things.

[formflier]

  Some nights, I only have the energy to go outside and breathe in the scent of the gardenias for a few minutes. 

Hey...start a thread or make a "challenge" for this next time you go "sniffin"

Outside on my back deck with a favorite beverage...no electronics..sometimes a book but most of the time not.  Just me..beverage.. chair and enjoying the solitude, smells and sights.

Maybe I'll beat you to making a "self care challenge thread"...my P remarked to me yesterday that I haven't been myself for a few months now.  We are doing some digging to see if it's a season or something to be concerned about.

However..one thing is true..I've been elevating the needs of others (primarily my elderly Mom with dementia..over mine)  Understandable..but no sustainable.

Oh...Hey Ozzie101...I'll put my gun away and stop the thread hijack...   

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Hey FF,

Looking back, I should not have engaged. Honestly, I played a part in keeping the argument going. When someone makes accusations or statements I know aren’t true, my reflex reaction is to argue or correct. Not helpful. Not worth it. I should have recognized the mood he was in and said something like “yeah, the more frequent trips will be an adjustment but we’ll figure it out. What do you want for dinner?” If he kept pushing, I could have just firmly but kindly told him I wasn’t going to talk further. With his mom, I think I handled everything fine at first but once it was clear he was in combative attack mode I should have cut it off.

I struggle with shutting him out when I know he’s hurting and sometimes I fear that could make things worse and reinforce a “you don’t care” mentality. Or that he might do something stupid or destructive. But I have to protect myself. He has to be responsible for his own behavior and learn to self-soothe or manage his emotions in a healthier way. My T had suggested laying my plan out for him so when it happens, there are no real surprises. He won’t like it and will probably push back, but I’m feeling more prepared and resolved to do what I need to do.

I LOVE gardenias, Stepmom! Our new house has a huge one right by our deck. When we moved in it looked dead but our yard guy said to wait and see. (I think the hard freeze and excessive snow we had in February had an impact.) Sure enough, green leaves popping out all over! No blooms yet and there might not be this year but I have hope.

[Cat Familiar]

Things were pretty rocky with my husband when I first arrived here. In fact, a friend told me that she was sure I was on the road to a divorce.

Nowadays there’s almost zero conflict.

How is that possible?

As you mentioned, I no longer engage when he’s on the path to dysregulation. I catch it by noticing voice tone, black and white thinking, agitation, etc.

This is not the relationship I imagined having, where I could talk to my partner about anything and everything. Lots of times I feel like a primatologist watching an angry male subject.

There are lots of benefits to me in being in this relationship, so I tolerate the emotional dysfunction as *baggage* and go on my merry way. But it’s hard, even though we now get along well. Being around someone who is regularly grumpy, has a victim mentality, is seeking to blame externals for his own emotional discomfort, who tries to blunt his emotional pain through alcohol, buying himself expensive things (he’s trading in his 7 year old Mercedes sports car for a new Porsche that he’s ordered—he can afford it, but it violates my sensibilities    If I wanted a new car *I don’t*, I’d buy a hybrid).

But being around someone who doesn’t take responsibility for his emotions, or not until he acts out inappropriately and then realizes it— it’s not like having a healthy relationship partner to lean on.

The only way this thing works is if I steadfastly refuse to take responsibility for his emotions and separate myself when he’s behaving poorly. (This goes against all my assumptions about what it means to be a compassionate human being, but it seems to work well with someone who is BPD.) 

[formflier]

 Honestly, I played a part in keeping the argument going. When someone makes accusations or statements I know aren’t true, my reflex reaction is to argue or correct.  

You and me both...a couple of times lately I've "nibbled"...maybe I didn't take a full bite of the invitation to argue...but I kept it going at low level of grumpy for a while.  Honestly not sure why I did it...really wasn't thinking.

Sometimes I think the low level stuff is worse that what it seems you had (the big accusations...).  Yes those are bad, yet there is a blowout and he is back to normal fairly soon.

I would get a couple "canned statements" such as "Oh babe..I'm not able to talk about that right now (do not "name" the thing), I am able to stay on phone and offer support."

Then...more accusations.

"I can offer support or leave the phone call, which would you prefer."

no answer

"Click"

The first couple times will take ENORMOUS STRENGTH on your part and you will likely actually "feel worse" than after the long argument.  It will take a couple times for the new "mental groves" to take hold.

And yes...it is much easier to write it than to do it...but you know you have to..right?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Lots of times I feel like a primatologist watching an angry male subject.

Oh...here comes bad FF.   

I dare you to show this to your hubby!   You have an angry man...and a primate.

FF's Dare to Cat Familiar

There are tons more of these out there..always make me smile.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

That’s it, Cat. It really does go against my sensibilities. I’m a helper. A fixer. (Familiar around here, no?) So it won’t feel right and I will struggle with guilt. But it is right.

I absolutely know I have to, FF.

In a way, my current job is helping me with this. Every day I try to help people in bad situations — mostly through mediations. Often, people are upset/angry and want more help than I can give. It’s hard because sometimes these people are in a very bad position. But I know what I can do (legally) and what I can’t. In the 15 months of working here I’ve gotten better at stepping back, not beating myself up for it, and telling the consumer firmly but empathetically “I can’t help.” I’m learning to let go of the responsibility and guilt over things I can’t do.

Very similar here.

[formflier]

My P makes a big deal about using the words "can't" instead of "won't" (or other related words).

"I'm not able to do (blank)."

sometimes I add "right now".

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I showed those ads to my hubby and we had a laugh, FF.

I think one of the most difficult issues for nons is that our partners can at times seem like logical, reasonable people. While other times...

As Once Removed said in another thread, they are BPD always; it doesn’t come and go, and the dysfunctional responses are often triggered by stress.

So I prepare for the worst, hope for the best, and enjoy the moments where things are calm and functional.

I imagine it’s like being with a partner with a disability, except the disability is invisible. But it’s there all the time...

[formflier]

I showed those ads to my hubby and we had a laugh, FF.

 

You rock...I dare you to explain why you were laughing harder...   

Best,

FF

[ThanksForPlaying]

Ozzie - sorry to hear about your uncle.

My cousin killed himself about 6 months ago and it was super difficult - and also set off some of the same BPD triggers. At the time, it was late at night and uBPDgf broke down (she knew my cousin and became emotional) while I was kind of in shock and just quiet, trying to process it. She got mad at my 'lack' of reaction and said if I didn't go 'be with my family' immediately, then she would lock me out of the house. So I did, and it was fine, although it would have been fine to 'be with them' the next day too. She later said "what if that would have been me and no one cared?" So in this case, she was just thinking about the level of 'emotion' she would want me to display if it had been her. Understandable, but still a very BPD reaction. In reality, I know there would have been a rant either way. Had I rushed out the door immediately, she would have been upset that I 'handled it wrong' and left her alone. It was a no-win situation.

SHE was upset about this unexpected stressful event, and therefore whatever I did that night was going to be the target/outlet for her stress. She was going to criticize my handling of the situation and 'teach' me or 'tell' me how to solve the problem better (because she has no idea how to self-soothe and handle her own emotions). So I became the outlet (happens all the time in a relationship with pwBPD)

If I stay, I'm wrong, if I go, I'm wrong. That's how I see it. So in the future I just have to make my best, educated, thoughtful decision, and deal with the inevitable rant. It would be so nice to have a partner who could soothe and discuss and help me work through these emotional situations, but that's not possible in this relationship. I have to get that elsewhere - like here! And with a therapist, family, and friends for support.

Another classic example of this push/pull that we've been working on through the pandemic is the work-from-home dynamic. She says I'm "always in front of my computer" in my office and that she "never sees me". She feels ignored when I'm in the same house, but not focused on her (even though that's just what "work" is). She also feels ignored when I leave the house for work "you work all the time". In reality, when I work from home I spend much more time with her during the day - lunches, errands, breakfast, etc. And she ALSO complains at the same time that I don't "give her enough space" and I'm just smothering her and controlling her all the time. So it's "you work too much" and "you don't give me enough space" in the same argument.

We've gone through several cycles of me going to the office until she declares I need to spend time at home, and then after a few weeks of that, she can't stand me anymore and can't be around me and needs space. And repeat. It's very black/white thinking, all or nothing. There's no moderation.

Ideally, two adults would be able to spend time together and take some time for themselves, and make minor adjustments to keep everyone happy. With BPD, it's often MAJOR changes that need to be made IMMEDIATELY, despite the fact that a couple days ago, the situation seemed fine.

When all else fails, use the trunk monkey haha.

[Ozzie101]

The work issue comes up frequently for us too. Working from home wasn’t a problem. The trouble tends to come when I go in to the office. For months, I had to go in two days a week. Now it’s four. Most of his dysregulations happen when we’re apart.

Anyway, one of his big sticking points is that I put work first, that it’s my priority. He insists he’s always willing to blow off work for family. When we’ve talked about working and priorities during normal times, I’ve told him that for me, doing my best at work and bring a responsible employee are ways of putting my family first. It’s helping to support our household. H tends to disagree. My job isn’t as flexible time-wise. But I don’t work overtime or anything like that. When I’m off, I’m off with plenty of time to cook, hang out, etc.

The lack of flexibility seems to be a big part of what gets to him. Other than that, I’m not sure why he thinks my work cones first — except I know that was an issue with him and his first wife too.

[jordan_bg]

Hello again,
The replies on this thread have been really interesting, and at the same time leave me kind of scratching my head...
I see so many saying, basically, "My partner can't meet my needs, I never know when things will blow up, I don't have a true partner, but if i'm really really good at how i react i can maybe, sometimes, avaoid some conflict"
Can I ask, are any of your partners on medication? In some kind of treatment? i'm so confused about what I read here because I kind of thought with medication and treatment living with BPD would look different but I don't see anyone here talking that way so I guess that's why I ask. @cat familiar, I see that because YOU are managing your reactions better conflict is down but you stil lhave to deal with impulsive behavior and don't get the emotional support from your partner. I'm not in your relationship and I don't want to judge, I'm just genuinely curious about how you came to the "acceptance" phase of all of this and if your partner has done anything to change.
Same question for @thanks for playing. I often feel the same way, damned if i do, damned if i don't, and I can't seem to get past the unfairness of that. @ozzie, most of the dysregulation happens when you're apart, well, you have to go to work but what about "optional" activities? Do you worry about saying you want to do things without him? I do, to the point that most of the time i just don't.
I'm still undecided about the future of our relationship, but after 13 years of emotional abuse I just don't know if i have it in me to do all this work for someone who has done me so much harm. What do I get out of being in a relationship with a partner who isn't one?
I'm really, really strugggling with this.

[formflier]

Most of his dysregulations happen when we’re apart.

Hey..sometimes it's helpful to "flip" things.  So...what if you worked 5 days a week and when you went to work you didn't communicate with your hubby?

Perhaps he has a number to the front office he can call if someone is suddenly hospitalized or perhaps there is some "legitimate" emergency.

Why not agree with him 100%?  "Yes..during work hours my work is my priority.  Looking forward to coming together for a meal at 6pm."

Best,

FF

[ThanksForPlaying]

jordan_bg - You're starting to ask yourself the right questions.

No one here would hold it against you if you walked away from a relationship. I see two key issues you're wrestling with.

1) "someone who has done me so much harm"
2) "what do I get out of being in [this] relationship...?"

While I happen to be committed right now to making my current relationship work with uBPDgf (3 months pregnant)... there are certainly things that could change that would make me walk away.

Namely (1)... I need to have boundaries and limits set on the amount of harm I'm willing to accept. pwBPD are skilled at dishing out an enormous amount of harm to others, often because they have experienced much harm themselves in the past. It often escalates slowly over time, pushing our boundaries to levels of harm we didn't know we would ever accept because each incident is only "a little worse" than the last one - that's why enforcing boundaries is important. We wake up one day and we're dealing with hospitals, police, etc and wondering how the harm levels got to that point.

As for (2)... Everyone on this board would also (hopefully) have a few nice things to say about their pwBPD. Otherwise I agree with you that there is zero reason to stay (and you'll see some posters here who have left the r/s because there was nothing good left). There are some threads occasionally started here about the good stuff - the board just leans more toward addressing problems.

In my case, uBPDgf has a very creative mind which is amazing to be a part of when the BPD is temporarily on the backburner. She also is capable of compassion and caring when she's 'good'... Stuff like teaching children how to paint (mixing creativity and caring).

At this point, (1) doesn't outweigh (2) and I'm staying in the relationship for now. Nothing is black/white or set in stone - I'm always allowed to re-evaluate my situation. But I need to be careful to not re-evaluate my original boundaries and just start allowing more and more harm.

Even though it's an "acceptance" phase and I sometimes say things like "I'll be dealing with this forever"... What I really mean is "I'll be dealing with this forever unless enough boundaries are crossed that I decide to leave". It's never too late to get out.

[ThanksForPlaying]

I guess my point above is that all relationships have (1) bad stuff and (2) good stuff.

pwBPD are capable of generating a lot of (1) bad stuff in very hurtful and confusing ways...often subtle... often with gaslighting... often covering it up so people outside of the relationship don't see it.

pwBPD are also capable of generating a lot of (2) good stuff in the honeymoon phase and through the beginning of each recycle.

Much like a "normal" relationship where you have to weigh (1) vs (2), we do the same thing with a BPD relationship... It's just that (1) and (2) are full of extremes, and hard stuff to "weigh". That's why we have this board to help 

[Ozzie101]

FF, we’ll talk during lunch and send a random text at other times. Sometimes he’s busier than I am with meetings and projects. The problem comes when something happens to set him off. I think he got used to having me there to stabilize him. If someone says something that upsets him, he gets in a thought spiral that gets out of control. This doesn’t just happen with work. We can be together all day, he can go run a few errands and - boom.

The work issue isn’t so much that we can’t talk. We can most of the time and it’s not an issue. It’s that he’ll suddenly decide I’m inflexible. Or he’ll get angry if he gets an idea to go out of town or something and I’ll say I have to talk to my supervisor. “You should demand it.” Or “you should demand a raise.” He thinks I’m a pushover. Maybe I am. But I’m also not going to go in and talk to my bosses the way he wants me to.

Again, this is when he’s already “on edge.”

To answer one of your questions, jordan, yes, I do find myself avoiding solo activities just to avoid the dysregulation (or just moodiness) that usually follows.

[ThanksForPlaying]

"Self-soothing" is a skill that children learn but that pwBPD often never developed. Basically it's just the ability to calm yourself down on your own. Babies usually don't have it (long tantrums if left unattended) but at some point, they develop it and that's why tools like "quiet time" or "time out" can help a child calm down (I'm not sure of the general timing of when this skill develops, but you can see it when it happens).

We have this same issue during times when I am unavailable. It can be a pre-planned meeting. "I have this meeting today from 1pm to 2pm" and somehow during that hour she's left the house because she got in a fight with someone ELSE, and needs some "space", and is crying and drinking somewhere.

My theory is that this is a minor "abandonment" and I haven't found a way to avoid the disregulation. Talking about it ahead of time only seems to increase the chances that she will find something to be upset about during that time. I'm now thinking maybe SET ahead of time would take the edge off a little.

Jordan - there was a time where I didn't want to leave the house because on more than one occasion she had locked me out when I came home. I was trapped in my house by fear of being locked out after running a few errands solo (because of whatever grievance she had created in her head during the time I was away). I knew I couldn't live like that and I've just started doing things anyway. I threatened to call the police one time and she unlocked the door. It hasn't happened since. Although she has now started sometimes leaving AFTER I get home because she just "can't be around me" after whatever grievance has occurred. But for the most part now, I just do things solo when I want to, and things are usually more calm (not sure if she's still having these episodes in her head, but I'm seeing less of them).

[formflier]

Hey...something to consider (and I'm likely not communicating it the best)...

When you find areas where you can agree and "get on the same page" with your pwBPD...do it.

When you can agree/get on the same page...and that gets you relief from the effects (mostly negative) of BPD...that's like winning the lottery.  Right?

So.."yep...not flexible."  "Nope..can't talk more than 15 minutes at lunch, will be available for a walk and talk tonight"

So..even though your work is "actually" more flexible..."agree" with your hubby and behave as he believes..."no flexibility".

I think it's entirely likely that he will dysregulate and return to baseline and you will be blissfully ignorant.  I'm not saying it will "always" be that way...I do believe you will expose yourself to less BPD that way and maybe...just maybe...he will learn to self soothe a bit better.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Hi jordan_bg, to respond to your question, my husband and I get along great about 95% of the time. I did change my behavior and learned to “listen” better to his emotional responses. Lots of times it’s just noticing a facial expression or a subtle change in voice tone or cadence.

How I’ve changed my behavior is that I had a habit of being a “fixer” and wanting to help whenever I could. To him, that pattern felt demeaning, as if he was incapable and I needed to rescue him.

The truth is that often he was behaving as if he was incapable and needed rescue. People with BPD are far more insecure than they let on. But if we try to “help” them with these issues, it’s one of those “no good deed goes unpunished” things.

There were a lot of other ways I didn’t realize that I was invalidating him too. So over time, I essentially stopped *trying* so hard and just paid more attention and backed off when I saw he was getting uncomfortable.

I think a lot of people (me included) when they first arrive here think, “Oh  I’ve been trying so hard with this relationship and now I’ve got to learn all this new  to make things better. Why is it always my problem?”

For me, the irony is that I just started to take care of myself better, figured he’d find solutions to his own problems and if he didn’t, well that was on him. And in the long run, I no longer fret about his issues and we get along better.

He does still behave impulsively at times—nothing too whacky, boundary busting, or illegal, thank goodness. But he does want to emotionally support me—though he can’t do that when he’s wound up himself. He does very nice things for me and supports me in a multitude of ways and I know he has my back.

So yes, these relationships can work. Much depends upon how affected one’s partner is by the dysfunction.

[Cat Familiar]

Ozzie some tough love incoming...

I sense you get a lot of your feelings of self worth through helping others. Nothing wrong with that, but by managing your husband’s emotions, you are keeping him infantalized. He needs to learn self soothing skills and he never will if you regularly swoop in to rescue him from his emotional distress. And honestly, does your emotional rescuing ever really work or is it just a bandaid fix?

Since this has been a long-standing pattern with the two of you, it will precipitate a major extinction burst. Don’t even try this if you are not in a good place to handle it.

Once you decide you do want to change this pattern, you will have to be committed 100%, no going back to “fix” his emotions no matter how upset he gets. If you do, you will set back your progress and it will teach him to get even more out loud to get you to respond.

This pattern has slowly developed over time and it will continue to stay the same or get worse. He will demand more of your time and attention since his demands have worked so far.

I sense that he’s been triggering some of your insecurities with his accusations: you care more about your family than him, you won’t stand up for him, you are a pushover, you are inflexible, your work is more important than him, you don’t like his son, you don’t care, you’re insensitive...

You hear these things, and want to defend yourself, and away things go...over and over. What if you no longer did that?

I finally got to the point where I’d agree with the accusations if there was a smidgen of truth in them. “Yes, I’m self absorbed and selfish.” (So what, isn’t everyone? I’m supposed to be perfect and that means caring totally for your every need and not thinking for a moment about myself?   that!) I have an active internal dialog that uses very foul language.  

Interestingly, once I started agreeing with him about my *personal failures as a human being* it took the *fun* out of it for him to accuse me of these things and he quit doing that.

I’m not suggesting that you don’t help him when there’s a real need, but discerning what that is will take some finesse.

[formflier]

So yes, these relationships can work. Much depends upon how affected one’s partner is by the dysfunction.

Hey Cat...I'm curious if you can expand on how "interdependent"  your lives are and if there are certain areas you have been deliberate to "not depend on him" so that his dysregulations don't matter as much.

I've generally been successful in improving my relationship, yet raising children together (large family) provides plenty of opportunities for BPD to "strike" at the worst possible moments.

Sure..most of the time it doesn't really matter so it doesn't have to devolve into a yes/no thing...but there are times...and they are still quite entertaining (to be polite).

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

We spend a lot of time apart, even though we are nearly always in proximity on our property. He likes to read and watch TV—endless games—all sports seem to be of interest...and then there’s movies—he loves old and new movies.

I can handle about 1 hour of TV at night and that seems like more than enough for me...sometimes two if it’s a good movie.

I’m outdoors gardening, taking care of animals, riding my horse, etc. If I’m indoors, I’m a news junkie—he is to some extent too, but can get overwhelmed.

A big change we’ve made is that he does all the cooking now. He’s better at that than me. I was vegetarian for most of my adulthood, so I am not skilled at cooking meat. We get 6 days of food from organic meal plans and he cooks it all.

I do all the cleanup, as I’m a clean freak and his standards don’t match up to mine. It’s the same with cooking. If I were to cook, nothing would be done at the same time and I’d either over cook or undercook meat.

Though he gripes about cooking all the time, I think it’s really boosted his self esteem. And I mention we can trade and that shuts down the complaints.

He’s been taking charge of some outside tasks, such as maintaining the irrigation system for the lawns. Over time, I see this as a big step in building his self confidence.

We each do integral things, but mostly do them by ourselves. He gets irritated if I come into the kitchen when he’s cooking and I completely understand.

[Cat Familiar]

Here’s a great article about emotional manipulators that we all can benefit from reading:  https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/nine-signs-youre-dealing-emotional-manipulator-dr-travis-bradberry/

[Ozzie101]

You’re exactly right, Cat. We’re in a bad pattern, built up over the last 4 years. Yeah, it will likely not be pretty when I pull back. I’ve already started to do it some. I no longer rush in to try to rescue him. I’m better at being detached. Not perfect. I still need a lot of work. But, in a way it’s like dealing with a toddler/young child. You have to be firm holding the line. Otherwise, they learn that if they just escalate the tantrum, they get what they want.

In a way, he’s not getting what he wants now. I’m not doing what he wants me to do most of the time. But I’m working and will continue to work on being more mindful.

I’ll keep that in mind — agreeing, FF. It won’t slow him down but maybe over time...

Cat, I’m going to give that article a good read.

[ForeverDad]

Can I ask, are any of your partners on medication? In some kind of treatment? I'm so confused about what I read here because I kind of thought with medication and treatment living with BPD would look different but I don't see anyone here talking that way so I guess that's why I ask.

People are all different.  So are those others in our relationships.  So one single answer just doesn't exist.  Many flavors of people, hence a variety of responses are appropriate depending on the situation, severity, etc.

About meds... Yes, meds can moderate the behaviors.  But while they may be a solution for Bi-polar which is viewed as largely a chemical imbalance, that's not as applicable to Borderline behaviors.  Sure, it can help to some extent but there are limits to the benefit.  And when many stop their meds, then what do you do?  It's an acting-out Personality Disorder.  Meaningful therapy over years is generally needed.  The big problem is that there is extreme Denial and Blame Shifting.  Typically anyone and everyone is Blamed since it can't be that person's responsibility, culpability or fault.  (Admittedly no one likes to be at fault but the reality is that we all are sometimes at fault for something or other.  When the Denial or Blame Shifting is to an extreme, that can be an indication of BPD.

In my case, after separation and divorce starting in 2005 and being in and out of family court until 2013, finally the best magistrate there put in writing in a decision that my ex would benefit from counseling... but declined to order it.

In my case, there was a point where the discord rose to high conflict.  Not at first, the behaviors gradually worsened, we had been married for over a decade.  We even went to a reproductive specialist to have a child.  (I innocently thought she would have a more positive outlook on life if we had children and she could enjoy watching our child enjoy discovering life.  Wrong!  Having a child did not fix her deep issues, it made things vastly more complicated, especially when the relationship continues to nosedive and fail.)

In my case, it had become high conflict by the time our son was three years old.  I could see the Biblical hand writing on the wall.  I realized I should have sought help long before it got that bad.  Best I could do was protect myself and my parenting as best I could.  Slowly I started working on Boundaries even though I didn't quite know how to do that.  Of course, that triggered my then-spouse to create even more conflict.  And our marriage imploded, police were called, she was later arrested for Threat of DV, she made increasingly scary allegations, fortunately CPS stated they had "no concerns" about me and that was the start of 8 years in and out of domestic court until eventually I had a court order that worked — the final six years until he became an adult were relatively minimal conflict.

Of course we have a mix of issues on this board.  Some just arrived, some have been here for years.  (I arrived in late 2005 and 'lurked' until registering in early 2006.)  Some have "difficulties", others have higher levels of chaos, discord, sabotage, obstruction, conflict.  We don't recommend every relationship continue — and you decide — some are just too dysfunctional, unhealthy and legally dangerous to continue.

So perhaps these are some appropriate questions...

• How dysfunctional is the relationship?
• Can it be improved with use of tools and skills encouraged here?
• Will your partner work with you to improve the relationship?  Or obstruct you?
• Will your partner see the benefit of seeing a therapist for meaningful therapy long term?

[formflier]

I’ll keep that in mind — agreeing, FF. It won’t slow him down but maybe over time...

I'm asking others to come along and tweak my point...several things going on lately and I don't seem at top of my game.

Here is my point Ozzie101...

When I read your posts and your responses (such as the quote above)...it's about him/BPD.

When does Ozzie101 get to matter?  When do "taking your ears" away (yes..physically taking them away so you are ignorant of what is said/done) from a dysregulation become the focus...and frankly stay the focus.

Perhaps an example from yesterday:  I took a day of solitude.  Is it possible FFw is mad about it..yep...is it possible she shrugged her shoulders and was like "whatever dude"...yep...did I give even the slightest amount of brain space to her reactions NOPE?

She texted a few times wanting me to do things and I was kind and clear about what I was able to or not able to do.  NO JADE.

She and rest of family went to drive in movie last night and I wished them enjoyment and let them know I would be going to be early (which I did)...and yes the world looks different to me today with sleep.

I'm not the least bit embarrassed or anything about "taking a day off".  I do think I was prudent and thought about what I would say if FFw wants to get into it...but I gave it like 5 minutes of thought and was done with it.  

It was about me and my needs...basic needs like sleep and a clear mind to do some important prep work for my Mom's upcoming medical appointment.  

Imagine going inside my head and what FF thought process was like and then go inside Ozzie's head and imagine that.  (please don't take this as a better or worse thing...it's hopefully using current events as a teaching point)

And...most likely (seriously..the most likely outcome) is that FFw enjoyed the space as well, although she appears more reluctant to voice that kind of thing, compared to me.  (see the "vibe" of Cat's posts)

So...I'm proposing not a tactical change of saying this instead of that...I see a more fundamental change.  Which person in the r/s is taking up the headspace of Ozzie?


Best,

FF

[Dad50]

I concur with you 100%. It seems the same with all of us. We work our butts off so the situation remains "not crazy". That is the metric. if we can just not re-act. If we can just understand. Maybe it will be "not terrible". I don't want a life where my ultimate goal is to work hard so things can just be "not terrible", but that seems to be where we all are. I haven't whatever it is so I can finally choose to leave. I wish I could.

[Ozzie101]

Good, enlightening question, FF. One I’ve sort of picked around the edges of, but haven’t really delved seriously into before. Initial thoughts:

My thoughts and actions revolve mostly around H. Primarily: what can I do to avoid or decrease the chances of an episode? How do I respond to this? How do I approach that? Life seems to exist primarily of keeping him happy. Which I can’t do. Not to mention, most of the things that set him off don’t even involve me in the first place.

In a way, I think my parents’ and grandparents’ relationships helped set the stage. Don’t get me wrong — they have/had great relationships. But my examples were of doing everything together or always putting your partner first. None of them are disordered though so it works differently.

While I do things for myself, there are things I feel the need to hide. Or, if I do those things, I feel anxiety because I know they’re going to come up again later. Particularly if it involves my family.

I need to get away from worrying so much. I need to get back to feeling like I can be myself. I need to stop worrying about his moods and reactions. He will react how he reacts and handle things how he will. But I can’t and shouldn’t let that control my life.

We’ve gotten into a bad pattern. Breaking it won’t be easy.

[formflier]

  Not to mention, most of the things that set him off don’t even involve me in the first place.
 

Doesn't this make it easy...?  Why involve yourself in things that you are not involved in..."stay in your lane".  Right?

Good job chewing on some heavy stuff...

Best,

FF

[formflier]

We’ve gotten into a bad pattern. Breaking it won’t be easy.

I agree it's a bad pattern...I disagree about it not being easy (perhaps there is nuance that it will not "feel" easy).

Here is the thing..how hard is it to leave a cell phone sitting on your desk instead of picking it up?

How hard is it to manage the impulses that drive your hand to reach and pick it up?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

The things that set him off aren’t me. But his pattern is that those things spin him off into areas that do involve me: my family, my job, etc.

Easy to leave a phone. I guess what I mean is, I don’t really know what’s going to happen. For instance, if I refuse to answer or engage, I don’t know how he’ll respond. For example, if he’s not home and I am, will he come home to continue the barrage in person where I know, from experience, it is not easy to get away.

These are things for me to think through so I’m not caught off-guard without a plan.

I also have to be prepared for the possibility that my shift in behavior and attitude could make things much worse. I’m ok with that, I’m that the status quo can’t continue. But that may not be easy to deal with.

He has major abandonment issues and his big complaint against me is always that I don’t care. My stepping back and not engaging or not answering is likely to add fuel to that fire. Again, I can do that, but it’s still likely to lead to extinction bursts.

[formflier]

What is it about the new home that makes it hard to get away?

Perhaps a new boundary is that any discussion of serious matter gets a pause...everyone goes and gets a drink and meets on porch in 5 minutes.  No questions asked...any bullying...discussion over..period.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

It was hard in the old home. I haven’t had to try in the new home yet because he’s been good about leaving (while I’m at work) when he’s getting worked up so he’s not even here.

In the past, he has blocked me, physically, from leaving the house. Or if I’ve just tried to go to a different room, he’s followed me.

[Cat Familiar]

As you know, blocking you physically is abuse.

I inadvertently addressed this problem a few years ago, and it never occurred again.

My husband is six inches taller than me and outweighs me by about 80 pounds. I’m used to muscling around horses and goats, but I’d be reluctant to do that to a human being. Besides my animals respect me, so usually it doesn’t take much to get them in line. What I’m trying to get across is that I’m not easily intimidated, but size matters.

I don’t remember the details, but he was getting in my way and trying to be physically intimidating. I grabbed a phone and dialed the first two digits of 911, not intending to call. I held my finger over the second 1 and as we argued, I hit the button by mistake.

I hung up quickly, but the dispatcher called back immediately. I tried to explain that we were merely having an argument and I mistakenly dialed. But no, they were going to send officers over.

My husband was beside himself, and with typical BPD thinking, believed he would be arrested and forever more known as an abuser.

I told him I’d explain it to the sheriffs and said that he should stay at the house, while I walked down to the gate.

It’s almost a quarter mile from the house to the gate, so I had plenty of time to think about how I’d explain things.

I kept the gate locked and stepped out toward the road and within a couple of minutes, two sheriffs cars pulled up with four deputies. I told them what had occurred and that I was in no danger, but they spent a long time talking to me, to make sure my story was consistent.

When I returned to the house, my husband announced that our relationship was over and he was likely to be arrested.

It took a few days for him to let go of this incident. I’m sure it ended up in his “reasons why I can’t trust her” column, but he never again tried to be physically intimidating to me back when our relationship was very rocky.

[formflier]

Ozzie,

Did you ever have a conversation or communication with he medical/mental health team?

In a moment when he is "remorseful" or in a neutral mood, I think this issue needs to be addressed..proactively.

When there is a request for "pause" in a conversation...there is a pause (5 min or something)...no questions asked.

You will go get a drink and perhaps fresh air to clear your mind.  No verbal bullying...none.

Any physical attempts to "impose" verbal bullying get a 911 call.  Every time.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

He’s never tried it during a “normal” fight. But I’ve started certain routines to greatly reduce the chances of being “stuck” in the house with him.

When I leave for work, I take my glasses and a couple of other single-copy necessities. I have a bag in my trunk with travel toiletries and a change of clothes.

Since we talk or text in the afternoon, I can get a reading for the situation at home. If he’s “off,” I’ll go to a hotel or something. I haven’t had to put that part into effect because lately, he’s left the house when he starts getting worked up. The arguments and dysregulations have been by phone. From now on, I plan on those calls being short.

If he’s gone, I come on home and take care of the dogs but I stay dressed and with my purse close by. I park on the street (so I can’t be blocked in). So, if he should come home altered, I can leave easily. That’s where I worry a bit — if I won’t talk, he may come home and it could be messy if he’s gone completely off the beam. At least when we’re talking, I have a clue where he is.

Honestly, it saddens and disturbs me that plans like this are necessary. Even during arguments, I know he won’t hurt or block me. It’s when he completely decompensates that things get ugly.

ETA: FF, no, I haven’t ever been able to talk to them. When I was supposed to, I wasn’t able to get on the call. He’s no longer seeing a T.

[Ozzie101]

Also, regarding the pause: we went through a time where we imposed that. We had a safe word and if either of us said it, we were to go to separate rooms for a specified period before coming back together. The point was to cool off and clear the air a bit.

Unfortunately, it never worked that way.

The first time I used it, he kept coming up and talking through the door. After that, he followed the rule, but, if anything, he used that time out to fixate even more, get more worked up, and think of more “ammo” to use.

[Cat Familiar]

The things that set him off aren’t me. But his pattern is that those things spin him off into areas that do involve me: my family, my job, etc.

Aha! Here’s your Kriptonite. He uses these areas so you get personally involved in his emotional dysregulation. By you getting upset along with him, he has camaraderie and doesn’t feel so alone and dysfunctional.

Think of the concept of Aikido, a martial art that seeks to resolve conflict peacefully. Instead of winning or losing, or meeting an attack head on, Aikido encourages stepping aside and redirecting energy.

It takes a lot of energy to defend one’s family, job, or one’s emotional commitment to the relationship. Instead, how about turning that energy back to him?

Here’s an interesting article about Aikido and leadership in business that discusses some of the concepts underpinning the martial art.   https://sanger.umich.edu/news-1-2-19-ema-aikido/

So how can you redirect his personal attacks on you, your family, your job?

1. Admit vulnerability  “Yes, I love my parents and I enjoy having a close relationship with them.”

2. Go meta  “So you think I should march into my boss’s office and demand a raise? How do you imagine my boss would respond to that? Is this something that has worked for you? And if so, how did you do that? What else did you say or do?”

3. Switch perspective  “It must feel really lonely to see what a close family connection I have when you didn’t have that growing up and you feel so estranged from your family.”

4. Reflect behavior  “Can you imagine how it feels to be upset and have you block me from leaving this room?”

5. Show potential consequences “Do you think what you are saying right now is making me love you more?”

I don’t know if any of these potential strategies would be useful. I wanted to give you some ideas of other ways to respond where you wouldn’t be triggered when he’s trying to hook you into his dysregulations.

[Ozzie101]

I appreciate the suggestions, Cat, and I’ll give them some thoughts. I’ve tried some without success but there may be some strategies to try.

So far, he’s been an expert at dodging challenges or attempts to redirect to stay in his place of anger and recrimination. Maybe I should take lessons from him — find a way to stay stubbornly in my emotional place (except in my case it would be neutrality and calmness).

[Cat Familiar]

How about letting him stay in his place of anger and recrimination?

You don’t have to participate in that.

Think operant conditioning. He’s nice; he gets your full attention.

He’s unpleasant; you have other things to do, other places to be.

You can’t fix a personality disorder.

You need to take care of your own emotional needs. He’s obviously not supporting you in that way.

[Cat Familiar]

I keep thinking about your title “what’s wrong with me.”

It’s good to be self reflective, but when your partner is blaming and accusatory, don’t you already do too much of that?

And really, how much does he examine his own behavior? Sure he can be contrite when he feels like he’s really mucked things up, but does he ever learn from the experience and change his behavior?

Being with a pwBPD and enduring their dysregulations can be likened to being in a cult. It can undermine our own sense of self.

Ozzie, it seems you’re focused on managing his behavior. How about shifting that focus to managing your response to his behavior, and perhaps your whereabouts so that you needn’t get exposed to some of the toxicity and that he can work it through by himself?

Now I imagine that you might say he will just seethe and let it build up until you’re back in his orbit and then unload on you. But as FF says, you’re letting your ears get exposed to this. Take them elsewhere.

I know it will be a hard thing for you, as a compassionate person, to do. But are you continuing to do what hasn’t been working and expecting a different result?

[Ozzie101]

You and FF are quite right. My focus has been too much on H and managing his needs and emotions. I’d already started some of the work of shifting my focus, but it’s past time to be more diligent. To alter my thinking so I’m focusing on how to protect myself (and ultimately our relationship).

[formflier]

Ozzie, it seems you’re focused on managing his behavior. How about shifting that focus to managing your response to his behavior,

I've never seen it put just like this...very on point! 

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I really appreciate everyone’s help. It means a lot.

I have been making some changes, shifting some attitudes. But it has been slow and imperfect and I still struggle. Maybe someday I’ll get to that better place. Your putting things into words helps a lot and gives me some sense of direction and things to try.

I’ve been having knee trouble for several months and today I had a follow-up with the specialist. He wants to try a new medication and had a new suggestion for what it might be. Like clockwork, H was negative when I told him. “What makes him think that?” “Is he sure?” “I just don’t think he knows what he’s talking about.” Keep in mind that at my last visit, I discovered that this doctor and my late uncle were friends/roommates years ago. I like the doctor. He has a warm bedside manner, explains things clearly, listens well and has a lot of experience. But H’s pattern has been to try to undermine my feelings about other people — family, friends, church, colleagues.

Instead of letting it bother me, I thanked H for his concern and said I’m very happy with his care and am hopeful the new treatment will work. Then asked what he wants for dinner.

[formflier]

Solid work on handling the negative talk.

And...just a slight tweak.

Thank him for his concern..assure him you will keep it in mind...and then ask about dinner.  Probably not the best thing to let him know you are or are not taking his advice (leave that blank)

And the final exam question...why would you want to "leave it blank".


Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I would guess leaving it blank leaves off the potential dismissal or rejection.

What I said was, “Thank you for being concerned about it and I’ll think about what you said. So far, I haven’t seen a reason to be concerned about Doc but I’ll keep it in mind.”

But that could be seen as a challenge or rejection. Better to just leave it at “thanks, I’ll think about it.”

That would annoy him, too, as he says my indecisiveness and need to “think about things” drive him nuts but that’s not really my problem.

[formflier]

You don't want to validate the invalid.  It's "invalid" to make snap decisions when you have time to think them through.

"I'll keep that in mind as I consider my decision..."

he pesters you about your decision a day or two later..

"Still thinking it through, have been looking through some interesting research..."

Basically you are kicking the can down the road.. and if he is annoyed...

Oh boy..here is the question.  Are you concerned if he is annoyed about you you decide your medical care?


Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Not really. It’s annoying for me when he keeps bringing it up A
or if he uses that as one of his “talking points” during an argument. But if I’m not participating in that, it shouldn’t be as much of an issue. If there are real concerns about my health and care, of course I want to discuss those. But if it doesn’t present that way and just seems like moody negativity and alienation, no, I don’t care.

H has a tendency to get upset with doctors and switch to someone else. He’s frequently dissatisfied. I suspect there’s an element of “I want you to do/act like I do” involved. That’s part of why I don’t give his declarations a lot of weight.

[Cat Familiar]

OK Ozzie, think about this: it’s been a challenge for you to make changes, shift attitudes, you say it’s been slow and imperfect and you still struggle.

You are an emotionally healthy person dealing with a partner who is emotionally immature and has extreme difficulty controlling his responses and taking responsibility for his words.

You have a lot of good people skills, but are stretched to the limit by his childlike behavior. You, like all of us, had no idea that your romantic partner would behave in such a troubling way once you became more intimately connected.

Imagine this: if it’s this difficult for you, a healthy person, to make behavioral change, think about how hard it must be for someone as dysfunctional as your husband.

[Ozzie101]

That is an excellent point. I don’t remember that enough. He doesn’t have the healthier patterns. He doesn’t have the firm foundation to build on. I know his behavior frustrates him — after an episode, when he’s at baseline, he expresses how it baffles and bothers him. The fact that he’s able to feel and express that is probably a big part of my staying so long.

[ForeverDad]

I recall several years ago that my knee pain was getting so bad, felt like they were disconnected.  My doctor was surprised, as though I'd never mentioned it before.  But once I was asking for a purple parking tag, he got the message.  He sent me to a physical therapist who explained my knees were misaligned.  So now I have heel supports to tilt my heels (and hence ankles and knees) to a vertical alignment.  I've also been taking Omega 3s and curcumin extract to reduce the inflammation.  Today, knees aren't my most painful problem but my shoulders.  Ak!  Just sharing what helped me, there are of course many other causes of joint pain.

[Ozzie101]

Thanks, ForeverDad! Yeah, there can be all sorts of causes. The knee is a pretty intricate thing. My pain isn’t bad — nowhere near debilitating. It’s just nagging in a “something’s not quite right” way. My PCP and I felt like it was best to get a specialist involved up-front before it gets to that place.

Anyway, we ruled out arthritis and meniscus issues. Based on symptoms, he thinks it’s a problem with the plica so we’re trying anti-inflammatory meds for a bit.

[formflier]

While I have a host of physical disabilities (so far) knees aren't one of them.  I did have a meniscus repair done years ago (good grief..maybe 10 years).

Basically a little flap was wagging around in there and would randomly get caught at which point it felt like someone was stabbing my knee with an ice pick.

Luckily surgery and some follow up PT did the trick.

Oh..and I religiously take joint supplements now.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

My mother and three out of four grandparents have all had knee problems of one type or another. Given the fact that I also lucked out in inheriting the tendency to produce kidney stones ( ), I figured I’d probably end up with knee troubles too!

[Ozzie101]

H and SS10 were at the pool this afternoon when I got home. H called a couple of times and kept pushing their return later. I said that was fine, have fun.

They get home and H is immediately testy because I didn’t come by the pool on my way home (I’d suggested it but he had said not to worry about it since I was in work clothes and had groceries).

Then he tells me that there was a pool incident yesterday. SS and some other kids were playing a game, throwing a football to kids as they came down the slide. A girl with Downs Syndrome did it a few times. Both times SS threw to her it hit her hard in the face. After the second time, the mom spoke sharply to SS, who got upset. H told me how angry that made him — her getting onto his kid, and that he wanted to punch her in the face.

I mostly stayed quiet, sensing the danger zone. I have a sister who has special needs so I can be sensitive to that. He kept insisting he told me yesterday (he didn’t) and that I should have been there to handle it or run interference for him. To talk to the mom because of the “connection.”

I was neutral and noncommittal. I was thinking that if I had been her mom or it had been my sister, I would’ve gone mama bear too. Or at least told the kids to be more gentle. And H probably should have told SS to settle down and be more careful after the first time.

He then goes on to tell me that SS knows I hate him and that he doesn’t like me either. I don’t dislike SS. I’m concerned for him because I see some potentially troubling things which is a shame because he’s a smart, talented kid. Does he hate me? He might. I don’t know. I also don’t know what he really says to H — or what H tells him. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s overheard H accusing me of disliking him.

This has come up before of course. Now I feel uncomfortable in my own house (probably what he was going for).

I’m really not sure how to handle it.

[GaGrl]

Let me preface this by saying I have two cousins with Downs Syndrome, and I am very familiar and very protective of those types of situations.

It was an opportunity to practice empathy, and your H failed the oppportunity.

Moving on...

The term "Hate" is extreme, and I would explore your H's and your stepson's (alleged) use of this term, as it indicates a level of antipathy that you might not be willing to deal with.

This is escalating. Can you see that?

[Ozzie101]

I can see it, yes. We can’t go more than a week without a problem at this point.

I just feel lost. Angry. Lonely. Confused. Scared.

Chances are, tomorrow he’ll apologize. He’ll still think he was right about SS but he’ll likely say he’s sorry for how he acted to me.

It just doesn’t seem good enough.

And more than that, can I be ok being with someone who has that kind of attitude and reaction to that sort of behavior from his son? Given SS’s physical lashing out at his own mother, I have concerns of how he’ll end up. Do I want to be here for it?

[formflier]

I would suggest you handle it when he is remorseful by explicitly letting him know "sorry" isn't enough.  (I'm not suggesting using those exact words..still on first cup of coffee...)

How about "I appreciate your expression of sorrow, I'm curious how you propose to make amends (or perhaps reconcile...or perhaps make amends and reconcile)"

Please don't take this a "blame" towards you Ozzie...I'm trying to look at your part of the "dynamic" because I'm confident YOU can change this.

Now..another uncomfortable question that is a "tweak" or "nuance" of GaGrl's comment.  I see this as an escalation or maybe if not "escalation"..it's a "different line" that he crossed.

He "allowed"..."participated in"..."passively watched"... (you get the idea of how I'm trying to find the "best case")...his son to "play rough" (again the most polite thing I can think of) with an obviously disabled person.  

I'm shocked the Mom didn't go Mamma bear after the first...it would sound like she was "restrained" on the second...yet your hubby seems to place "blame" with her  as opposed to parenting/correcting/kicking his kids azzzz

It's possible I'm overreacting (I don't think so..) so I'll give "full disclosure".  I was high school football player...jock and also one of the "smart kids" (in all advanced classes) in high school.  So I kinda ran in two circles.

The "jocks" had "taken in" and emotionally disturbed classmate as one of their own.  We would flip off his hat..poke at him..play around with him just as we did each other.  I suppose our "logic" was he would appreciate (and he seemed to) being "one of the guys".  Heaven forbid we were somewhere and someone from another school made a comment about our guy "having a spaz attack" (he would kinda have this standing seizures from time to time).  Several fights broke out over stuff like that (not sure if it matters that we won them all...)

I was also aware that "the smart kids" thought the jocks were jerks the way they treated him (because I ran in those circles too).  

Looking back now I'm not sure if we treated him right...I wish I was more "encouraging"...but however you imagine high school football guys treating each other...he was right in there.  

Anyway...the older I've gotten I've certainly been more aware of those with disabilities and wanted to make sure I'm a positive influence in their life...without "treating them like they can't...(fill in the blank)...


Hitting them in the face a couple of times with a ball...naaahh...simply no good from any angle.

If they had been playing "dodge ball" and got clocked ONCE...that would be "normal"..make sure they are ok and keep going.   This doesn't sound like that.


 


Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

It's not out of bounds to bluntly use the term "bullying." It was bullying behavior, and it was tolerated. Unacceptable.

I am not the only person in this world with contempt for bullies. SS might have a rough road in front of him learning that lesson the hard way.

[Ozzie101]

From what I hear, it was an accident. The group of kids was playing a game, this girl was playing with them. SS didn’t realize the girl had Downs Syndrome. H didn’t realize until after the second time (he was farther away). SS was throwing it to her like he was to everyone else. Fine. But regardless, if a child misses a catch on the first time, I would modulate my throw the next time. And I would apologize, accident or not. H missed a learning opportunity on many levels. What lesson will SS learn? Maybe none.

I have zero tolerance for bullying, especially of people with special needs. My sister has been loved, protected and supported (and encouraged to push her boundaries) but even she had a few incidents. I keep thinking — SS and DH are lucky this mom wasn’t my dad. His handling of it would not have been so “kind.”

No apologies today. H is acting like nothing happened.

[Cat Familiar]

My ire was not elicited by SS’s behavior, but by your husband’s response to the disabled girl’s mother.

He wanted to  punch her in the face. 

This is so bad on so many levels.

I probably shouldn’t say anymore.

How are you handling this, Ozzie?
 

[formflier]

It appears we all agree the first toss is OK.

Second one is problematic...also problematic is the lack of response after first throw.  Again none of us were there but it doesn't sound like "oh my...you ok?" or anything like that.

I'm not sure I can give hubby a pass on any.

Ugg.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

His response is my issue too. Also, this was a chance to work in SS’s empathy and responsibility. SS has never, in the 5 years I’ve known him, apologized for anything. Ever. If he’s corrected about anything he either cries or shuts down. I’ve long seen that as a problem — one H does nothing to address.

Honestly? I don’t know how I’m doing. I feel kind of sick. Confused. Angry. Lost. Like I said, he’s acting like nothing happened today. I can’t.

[Cat Familiar]

I see this as an example of a deep seated divergence in values between the two of you. Do you think this is consistent with him or possibly a one off?

[Ozzie101]

It’s consistent with his attitude about SS. Mostly when he’s in one of his moods. At other times he’s way more reasonable and thoughtful — well, if SS isn’t involved.

I’m reminded of my family beach trip four years ago. Late in the week, H found SS crying. Apparently he had been in my nieces’ room playing and he was being obnoxious and pestering them while they were trying to watch a movie. My nephew, who was nearby, told his mom (my sister), who was also nearby and she (nicely) told SS he needed to go upstairs and find his dad and maybe do something else for a while.

H nearly came unglued. I didn’t see anything wrong with how my sister handled it. She was the adult in the area. She didn’t chastise or stand him. She just removed him from the situation. Keep in mind 15 minutes later SS and the girls were having a dance party and living it up.

The whole thing left me shaken as it was the first time I’d seen H like that. When I tried to suggest my sister hadn’t been in the wrong and that SS had just been a little too excited and needed a break, he looked like he wanted to throw me through a window or something.

Two years ago, we went to the beach with H’s bio family and, after I left, there was apparently an incident involving his sister and SS. She had said something to SS and H told me it got him worked up. SS corrected him later that H had misunderstood. But H told me everyone was acting strange that night. A month later, H was cut off. I’ve often wondered if he showed that side.

Anyway, his defensiveness and rage regarding SS had long been a concern for me. And it does SS no favors because he ends up not learning valuable lessons — and makes him a kid no one wants to be around.

It worries me.

As far as his attitude regarding the little girl — I don’t know. When he’s upset and in defense mode, he frequently says things that, in calm times, he would insist he doesn’t truly think it believe.

[I Am Redeemed]

This incident as well as the others you mentioned involving SS stem from the same root as the rest of your h's problematic behavior: he has extreme sensitivity to and hypervigilance towards identifying and defending himself from rejection and/or blame/shame.

He sees SS as an extension of himself, so he is extremely sensitive to rejection of SS and is hypervigilant about identifying any rejection of SS...because rejection of SS is rejection of him. Blame towards SS is blame towards him, which causes toxic shame.

It's likely that he felt shame when the girl's mother reprimanded his son...because maybe he felt that it was as if she were saying that he should be a better parent, or that SS should be a better kid, or both. I think this incident is a good example of how he views conflict: anyone who isn't for me is against me, therefore rejecting me/SS. I can see how this would bring an extreme reaction from him (wanting to punch her in the face). It's also very concerning and a colossal red flag, imo.

[Ozzie101]

That’s my reading of it as well. It’s been a concern of mine for some time. SS is a kid. There are going to be incidents. He’s going to make mistakes or do things wrong. H will complain about him or his behavior but when something happens involving another person, he loses it. And since SS isn’t actually being taught lessons about behavior and how to handle things correctly, incidents are even more likely to happen — and when they do, he won’t be able to handle them either.

I really don’t know what to do about it. I can’t do much about how SS is raised. But I don’t know that the whole thing is a subject I can address with H given his sensitivity. Yet standing by and watching (especially with things like the pool incident) just goes against my core.

[Cat Familiar]

This is a deepseated issue for your husband. It is entwined with his identity, and that’s why he reacts so strongly. PwBPD have a shaky sense of identity already.

And you’re right, SS won’t learn valuable life skills with his father intervening and labeling him as a *victim*. It sounds as if he’s already quite deficient in emotional intelligence for his age.

It’s so difficult to not be a biological parent. I faced the same thing when I was with a very nice man who had an emotionally troubled young daughter. He had PTSD from military service, so it was similar to some BPD issues and he was over solicitous of his daughter, who already was extremely entitled and spoiled.

Unfortunately the future I had foreseen for her came to pass, with suicide attempts, sexually inappropriate behavior toward other children, etc. (I had not shared all my thoughts about her behavior, but even mild suggestions were labeled as *criticisms* and accusations that I didn’t like her.)

One of the things I worried about was her bad eating habits, and by the time she was 15, she was 5’3” and weighed over 300 pounds. I was long out of her life by that time.

When she was almost an adult, I ran into her father in town and he told me he wished that he would have listened to what I was telling him when she was 7.

It’s a very difficult place that you’re in, Ozzie.  

[Ozzie101]

Thanks, Cat. It is difficult.

The thing is, SS has so much potential. He’s incredibly smart. He’s good-looking. He’s talented and athletic.

But, yes, he’s emotionally immature. He’s capable of insight and moments of thoughtfulness. But he had no clue how to handle any kind of correction and, if things don’t go the way he wants, he gets upset. From what I’ve seen and been told, both parents bend over backwards to avoid anything that might upset him. Apparently, he had major tantrum problems as a toddler that led to lots of appeasement. Then he’s an only child and grandchild so the world revolves around him.

I’ve seen myself SS physically lashing out at his mom when she tells him no or tries to correct him. I’ve also been told of an instance just 6 months ago. He got in trouble for calling a kid a name in school (apparently it was a good friend and they were trash-talking and a girl who overheard reported it). His mom tried to address it and he threw something at her, telling her “we’re not talking about it!” That all really bothers me. My T said some of his behaviors are warning signs for future abusers/perpetrators.

Sometimes I feel like I’m watching a slow-mo car crash. I really hope I’m wrong.

[Ozzie101]

This evening, H apologized for being a jerk last night. Said some work stuff set him off (which I guessed) and then the pool thing. He said he wished I had been there to see this lady and how ridiculous it was.

I didn’t let him off the hook, telling him it was better I wasn’t because he would not have liked what I would have had to say.

We actually ended up having a discussion about what happened and how it should have been handled. H said he didn’t fully agree with me (he believes special needs kids should be treated like everyone else do they’re not segregated — I said it’s more nuanced than that — and since the other kids were also rough-housing, SS did nothing wrong and shouldn’t have been singled out — well, if he was the only one to hit the girl repeatedly...) but he stayed calm and reasonable.

He admitted that he doesn’t like to have to talk to SS or reprimand him about things because he doesn’t want to deal with the inevitable tears and meltdown. I asked him how SS was ever supposed to learn things (such as how to handle correction) if no one ever addresses things with him. H agreed that I was right.

Do I feel better? Not really. H is still in the mindset that SS did nothing wrong and the mom was out of line. I also know this is likely to happen again the next time SS is out of line. And it doesn’t solve H losing it when something upsets him.

Basically, I still feel frustrated and angry and don’t have any rosier image of SS’s future or H’s personality and parental skills.

[formflier]

So..what is your hubby going to do to make "amends" and or make sure this never happens again...(or happens much less..is much less of a "thing" when it does happen.)


Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

He says he doesn’t know. He doesn’t know how to control it because once he gets triggered, he doesn’t know how to hold on.

I didn’t get much more out of him last night but if he seems stable, I plan to address it more fully today.

[formflier]

He says he doesn’t know. He doesn’t know how to control it because once he gets triggered, he doesn’t know how to hold on.

I didn’t get much more out of him last night but if he seems stable, I plan to address it more fully today.

I doubt he does know, that's why his answer should be "I'm going to get my medical and mental health team to help me know..and I'll follow their recommendations."

And then consistently do that.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

That’s been his response many times after an episode. Most recent time, two months ago, his P prescribed a new med for him to try taking when he feels himself getting worked up. That was the appointment I was supposed to join in on, but H was in a mood and left town and then I wasn’t able to get on the call with them. He’s often very open to my participating but then things always happen. On my “list” of things to discuss is my telling him I want to talk to his P about things.

He is no longer seeing a T.

He says he tells them about the blackouts and rages and they don’t seem too concerned. But I don’t know what’s really being discussed.

In the case of last week, he really doesn’t think he was wrong. He just apologized for being moody. He sees his reaction regarding the little girl’s mother as understandable and normal. He really doesn’t see a problem with his pattern of severe reactions re SS.

[formflier]

So..there is really no doubt here was "amends" looks like..right?

Can you write out what you think it will be like.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I think I should be able to talk to his P about what’s going on.

He would agree, most likely. But I would not be surprised if things happened to delay or interfere. He might say that, in that case, he thinks he should be able to talk to my T. That’s fine.

But even that doesn’t really address some of my problem, which is the difference in values and the issues with SS and H’s enmeshment with him. But that’s not entirely a BPD issue.

And even when I was going with him to his P (a different one), they didn’t really seem too concerned about what I told them.

[formflier]

Couple questions:

So..what exactly will address your problem.  Most likely best to write that out and make sure it is solid, because you know...you know that once you start trying to express that..very likely BPD will show up.

Plus..once you get it written out in "plain English"...we can help you with SET, DEARMAN or other strategies to help it be the most likely that "he will hear".

Switching gears a bit.

Regardless of how you would express your problem (s), full unfettered access to his medical team would seem to be a positive step in the right direction of possibly moving a step or two in a healthier direction.

Here is the challenge to you and then I would challenge you to communicate this to your husband.

1.  He says he wants to get better, is sorry for what he does to you and also says he has NO IDEA how to change/make this better.  (is this a fair summation?)  If not please adjust.

2.  He says he will give you access to his medical for the purpose of helping him change/making amends for his misdeeds.

3.  Yet...ignore what he says...focus only on results/what he has actually done in the past 6 months.  (perhaps longer).

Maybe that is an even bigger challenge question.  How long has it been since

His behavior has changed with regard to "the dance" that you guys are in?

Your behavior has changed with regard to "the dance" that you guys are in?  (I can think of several..it's important you are clear on this as well)

Enough for now...I think very important to clarify this for you..prior to chatting with him.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

The problem as I see it: When something happens that upsets or otherwise triggers him, it spirals into rage. Usually, it ricochets and he will focus on some way of being angry at me (often for something unrelated to what actually set him off in the first place). It would help if he had a healthier way of coping with these incidents so they don’t end up directed at me or any other people.

1. That is pretty accurate. I have expressed the above before and he always agrees with me and insists he wants to fix it and is trying but no one is helping. (Meds don’t work, T us a waste of time because everything the T suggests doesn’t work for H.)

On the timeline, I’m not sure. Almost three years ago was when things started getting bad and I first came here. Then, Feb of 2019, things improved. It was March, 2020, we first saw a renewed escalation that has continued. He grew more assertive about pulling my family into “blame.” Dysregulations seemed more tied to my not being around.

I would say around that time, I changed my approach. I was no longer as meek or conciliatory. But I need to give more thought to that...

[Cat Familiar]

I think the underlying victimhood (meds don’t work; therapy is a waste of time) is something that pwBPD cling to. Change is upsetting. Having to be accountable is painful. Acknowledging responsibility is excruciating. Far better to say, “I’m doing everything I can,” and really be doing nothing at all, but repeating the same.

[Ozzie101]

True, Cat. There’s a lot of victim hood at play. Also, he has a tendency to say nothing helps or nothing works, yet he’s changing providers frequently and, when he is in therapy, admits he just doesn’t say much.

One of his big complaints about me is that I’ll say I need to think about something or we’ll talk about something later. To an extent that’s true. I do need more time to process. And, no, sometimes we don’t end up having a discussion about some things. That’s usually because there are certain things I can’t address directly or, when I do, it goes badly.

Yet, I think he’s guilty of the same.

He has made some progress, for instance, leaving the house when he gets worked up, but the rages still end up happening. That’s on me, though — to cut it off.