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Author Topic: Sometimes it's just bad luck that leads us to pwBPD - curious what others think  (Read 4835 times)
PeteWitsend
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« on: April 02, 2024, 12:18:10 PM »

Mod note: This thread was split off as it's own discussion

I'm curious what others think about that idea, that sometimes - or maybe even often - it's just bad luck that leads us to pwBPD.

I'm reading a book (Black Swan by Nassim Nicolas Taleb), and one of his premises is that we go looking for answers to things that happen to us when there may be no answer.  We don't like the fact that the universe is as random as it is, and chance plays a bigger role in our lives than we'd like, so we invent stories after the fact to explain why something happened, or what we could've done differently.  

But there are just disordered people out there, and sometimes you meet them, and sometimes you might end up in a relationship with them.  If you're out looking for a relationship after a certain age, chances are a lot of the people who are single are that way for a reason, as much as I hate to say it because look at me... I'm also single now, and over 40.  

It's not always so easy to see your partner for what they are, and know what to do about it either, even if you suspect something is "off."  A lot of what we're taught (or at least what I was taught) as a man you take care of your family, you tough things out, you don't just leave a relationship if it gets challenging, and you listen to your wife and empathize with her and her feelings.  And "happy wife, happy life"... as anyone will tell you.  I grew up hearing that "relationships are hard" and "marriage takes work."  While I knew about standing up for myself, putting it into practice and recognizing that this had to happen within a relationship itself were not things I was told.

But all this plays right into the hands of someone who's emotionally manipulative and unstable.  They've learned through trial and error how to lie, how to obfuscate, how to rage to get their way, and if you're not on top of this, and you take them at their word because you expect them to do the same for you, you end up getting sucked in.  

I think ultimately, my takeaways were not that there was something wrong with me that lead me to the bad relationships I had; but that I should have been more willing to walk away earlier, when I sensed things changing for the worse, or saw irrational argumentative behavior that went in circles.  Women aren't "just crazy..."; an adult should be able to explain their behavior and if they can't, there's something off.  

And when you decide to end it, just go through with it and move on.  The fact that she cries, begs you to reconsider, or gets sad or disappointed isn't your fault, and its not something you can solve or she should be putting on you.  There's nothing wrong with ending a relationship and moving on

(although of course, once you have kids, you have to consider them and their needs first, but I'm talking about knowing when to end it before it gets to that point!)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2024, 03:49:48 PM by once removed » Logged
Pook075
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2024, 01:20:06 PM »

I'm curious what others think about that idea, that sometimes - or maybe even often - it's just bad luck that leads us to pwBPD.

I disagree.  Many here are drawn to playing the rescuer role in our lives and we're pulled in by broken people. For others, they simply missed the warning signs and chose to focus on love/happiness because they're upbeat people.

Then again, I also disagree on this being a random universe that depends on happenstance. I have faith in God and believe there are very few coincidences in life...at least for the bigger stuff.  Stubbing your toe or cutting yourself shaving is probably random, but falling in love and learning from that experience is probably not.
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2024, 03:08:00 PM »

I'm curious what others think about that idea, that sometimes - or maybe even often - it's just bad luck that leads us to pwBPD.

I agree with this...  I do think it's bad luck in many cases. Although I do believe in universe intervention and timing, and I do believe in certain enegeries being attracted to other types of energies, I do think that a great deal of what happens to us is random.

I hang out in circles where there's a lot of talk about manifestation... that we attract certain experiences/events/things into our lives, and that we attract certain types of people and relationships... so that we can heal parts of ourselves... it's a major thing I see relationship experts talk about. But I've never felt sure about that at all. Obviously we are all drawn to certain types of qualities in someone straight off the bat (and many people with high levels of dysfunction are creative, passionate, very interesting and charming individuals so are very easy to feel attracted to)... but we don't see the full picture of someone's personality and dysfunction until we're further in, especially with someone who has learned to skilfully mask those parts of themselves. We don't see how people react to stress, or how their attachment patterns show up until there's been chance to go through some experiences together.

I agree that the problems tends to be that we ignore the signs once we do see them, or we think we can work with them, or we think we can change ourselves or up-skill ourselves in order to handle what is in front of us, instead of just accepting what we're seeing and knowing it's not a good fit for us and having the strength and confidence to walk away. Or to have the sense to not attach properly until we have done some decent groundwork over the period of a number of months. I think there is a fair amount of digging you need to do in order to find the right person to be in relationship with... almost interview them as it were. But when you meet someone with BPD, the chances are you're going to be distracted by the crazy connection, which taps into a part of your brain that is not so logical. Overrides the logical part.

I sometimes read stories about people who are in relationships with people with BPD and they say they had a perfect relationship for a number of years before the cracks started to show, and I don't know how that's possible for someone with BPD to hold onto themselves for so long. For me it took about 3 months before I saw vast insecurity and instability, and truth me known I knew then I should walk away and actually did try to. But I went back. And that part is on me... I saw it and stayed... I had no idea of how had it would get - I had never been in a toxic relationship before and things got worse and worse and worse over time... that's on him, but I definitely had thoughts of being able to just fix it and work on it and make it work, whereas if I'd cut my losses and walked away, it would have hurt for a little while but I'd have come away totally unscathed.
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2024, 07:33:03 PM »

Yes and no.

~58% of the population have a secure attachment adaptation, and the likelihood of coupling with them is limited, as they are the least likely to be single.

This leaves us with a morass of individuals who have well-entrenched maladaptive behaviours, so the probability favours a coupling with them, as they are most likely to be single.

It wasn’t until I was 43, and single again after the end of a long-term relationship, that I received a crash course in personality disordered behaviour.

I describe my first post long-term relationship girlfriend as An Introduction to Cluster B Personality Disorders 101, and the experience was as gentle as being immolated by a flame thrower.

It shouldn’t come as a shock that when I finally parted company with this person, and started dating again, I was familiar with 70% of the faces on the dating website despite the passage of several years.

However, as you so correctly pointed out, when you’re single >40, you carry a vestigial notion with you: the sunk cost fallacy, or not really having an intuitive notion of when to cut one’s losses short.

As well, every woman I met seemed so fantastic that I thought that I should be in the running for a Nobel Prize for making the discovery, as your judgement is blinded by the litres of oxytocin, serotonin, and dopamine surging through your veins.

So, probability favours a coupling with someone who doesn’t have a secure attachment pattern above the age of 40.

I was painfully naïve when I was 43, and was shocked to make the discovery when dating that there was no correlation between academic attainment and agreeableness/conscientiousness, so someone can look fantastic on paper, and be a venomous monster interpersonally.

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PeteWitsend
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2024, 11:24:31 PM »

...
I was painfully naïve when I was 43, and was shocked to make the discovery when dating that there was no correlation between academic attainment and agreeableness/conscientiousness, so someone can look fantastic on paper, and be a venomous monster interpersonally.


I think also anyone with a personality disorder that's still single in their 30's/40's is going to have learned by trial and error they have to keep things together - at least for a while - or no one is going to stay with them long enough to make it hard to leave at the first red flags. 

It seems the best solution is time; eventually a pwBPD or cluster B is going to reveal themselves, or otherwise get pushy when they feel the relationship needs more commitment and they want their partner to move in with them or propose or something like that.  That provides an opportunity to see how they behave when they don't get their way, or miss their expectations.

Well after a couple bad relationships of mine ended, I heard some advice from an older woman a friend met... it's specific to women, but I think would also apply to a man or anyone in a relationship: tell them no, or otherwise deny them something and see how they react.  If you get an angry reaction, that's a very bad sign. 
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2024, 12:10:14 AM »

I do agree that not everyone will encounter someone with BPD in their lives. But a lot of my self-growth, and the self-growth that others on this page seem to have had, has been understanding our role in allowing this disordered person into our lives.

Sure, I could've never met my dBPDx. But chances are I will meet more people like her on dating apps, in professional and personal friendships, and throughout my life. I get to choose who to bring into my life. I get to decide what I will allow and won't allow. And it's my job to be present in the moment, and not explain-away or intellectualize harmful behavior or red flags.

A couple things you said I want to touch on.


It's not always so easy to see your partner for what they are, and know what to do about it either, even if you suspect something is "off."  A lot of what we're taught (or at least what I was taught) as a man you take care of your family, you tough things out, you don't just leave a relationship if it gets challenging, and you listen to your wife and empathize with her and her feelings.  And "happy wife, happy life"... as anyone will tell you.  I grew up hearing that "relationships are hard" and "marriage takes work."  While I knew about standing up for myself, putting it into practice and recognizing that this had to happen within a relationship itself were not things I was told.


I'm taking this as your experiences—of course people with BPD can identify as people with different genders and sexualities, and people on this site do too, but I assume you're talking about the way you've been socialized. I definitely have had some of this too, as I am a man.

On the fifth date with my dBPDx, she started saying "happy wife, happy life" (prompted by a stranger). It became a motto for some of our relationship. I was taught that relationships can be difficult. I was taught that sometimes it's best for me to put other people's emotions before my own (emotional caretaker). I was taught to overlook red flags and intellectualize instead of staying in-tune win my emotions. So when my dBPDx presented red flags, became emotionally unregulated, and presented relational challenges, I did was I was taught to do. I caretaked. I intellectualized. None of it voluntary. All of it learned. And much of therapy has been figuring out why I do that, and challenging those beliefs.

What I should've been doing is taking care of myself. What I should've been doing is listening to my own emotions, and expressing my hurt, my confusion, my lack of trust, my pain. All of these 'masculine' teachings resulted in me being isolated, caretaking, and confused. And it also led to me staying in the relationship far longer than I should have.


I think ultimately, my takeaways were not that there was something wrong with me that lead me to the bad relationships I had; but that I should have been more willing to walk away earlier, when I sensed things changing for the worse, or saw irrational argumentative behavior that went in circles.  Women aren't "just crazy..."; an adult should be able to explain their behavior and if they can't, there's something off. 


Some people are unable to emotionally regulate themselves. Again, I'm going to take this as your experiences and not about gender specifically. My dBPDx's actions were due to a diagnosable mental disorder that all of us overlooked, or didn't take account of, during the early stages of our relationships. Some very important questions to ask are why didn't we realize it? What did we miss? What can we learn about ourselves?

So much of therapy has been figuring out how to talk about me, and not about my ex. Because for so long, I didn't get the chance to talk about me. I was so worried about dBPDx's emotions that I was completely pushing away mine. Now, if I encounter someone who cannot control or regulate themselves emotionally, I pick up on those cues. I am proud of the work I've put in. But it comes first with the realization that it was my fault for not realizing it—dBPDx may have put on a mask, but I saw the cracks in it way before I realized what it really was. I should've pieced together what was behind the mask. Sure, it may have been bad luck that I met her, but I failed to see the red flags for what they were, and I am making sure I won't fail next time.
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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2024, 09:55:36 AM »

I do agree that not everyone will encounter someone with BPD in their lives. But a lot of my self-growth, and the self-growth that others on this page seem to have had, has been understanding our role in allowing this disordered person into our lives.

I've read that around 1.5% of people have BPD, which would be 1 in 75.  And around 6% will display one or more BPD traits in their lifetime, that's 1 in 16.

As I understand it, that's statistics for traditional BPD...which is the outward rages that's easy to see.  Quiet BPD is believed to be up to 6x more common since it rarely gets diagnosed.  It's the same as traditional BPD but everything is inward and hidden.

The chances are pretty strong that all of us have a friend or relative with some BPD traits; we simply don't see it as BPD.  Maybe they're just moody, or super quiet, or they prefer to just keep to themselves.  Maybe it's the distant aunt or uncle that's always mad about everything and can never let something go.  You don't know until you're inside their world on a daily basis.

Because think about it- how many people here say their spouse, child, or relative is completely off the rails yet almost everyone else in their lives can't see it?  It's because the closer you are with someone displaying BPD traits, the more you'll actually see and experience.
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« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2024, 10:00:13 AM »

...

Sure, I could've never met my dBPDx. But chances are I will meet more people like her on dating apps, in professional and personal friendships, and throughout my life. I get to choose who to bring into my life. I get to decide what I will allow and won't allow. And it's my job to be present in the moment, and not explain-away or intellectualize harmful behavior or red flags.

...
Yes, those are my takeaways as well. 

I look back at my marriage to BPDxw and a more recent co-habitation relationship that ended badly, and I see in both cases where I should've ended it, and moved on, and not listened to pleas for forgiveness and excuses for the behavior.  The prior case, my marriage, I suppose the red flags were obvious, but there was enough there that I didn't heed the warnings. 

We had been introduced by a good friend of mine's wife.  And she spoke well of BPDxw, and he often defended BPDxw's behavior or at least downplayed it to me when I confided in him.  Her and I are also in the same profession, and I sympathized with the tough time she was having getting her career off the ground because I went through that myself (I was 6 years older). 

Fast forward to the present: my friend and his wife are divorced, and he later went through a r/s with a violent pwBPD (a couple times she brandished a knife at him), and he has a different attitude toward that sort of thing now.  And I realized in time, BPDxw's career troubles weren't just the circumstances she was in, but her own poor work ethic and unrealistic expectations of what she should be doing early in her career. 

But I look at that and can't but help see a strong element of chance in the original meeting that played a role in the r/s continuing longer than it should have.  I had been in other relationships that had red flags and ended them early, so it wasn't something I was incapable of doing.

My more recent r/s... I didn't see the same cause for concern.  She had a job, lived within her means, and preached kindness and understanding in dealing with difficult people in her life.  She did a lot of nice things for me that she didn't have to.  She made an effort to meet my D (sooner than I planned, but I let it happen), and they seemed to connect well. 

It all changed dramatically when we started talking about living together, and I actually called that off and after some long discussions we agreed to re-evaluate things... but then... she got pregnant. 

"Intellectualize" is a good word there.  I did that in both cases.  I shouldn't have.  I didn't think my partner in the latter case was also BPD, although after she moved in, I found a book of hers on surviving childhood abuse that had a lot of highlighting and some notes that made me suspect she had been abused as a kid, but never talked about it.  Red flag.  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) She seemed less in control of her emotions and angry outbursts; BPDxw on the other hand seemed to have a malicious intent behind them.  Maybe they're both BPD, but BPDxw had a tough of anti-social personality disorder as well. 

I've seen comments from others here and on other sites that after such relationships happened to them a second time, they were DONE with tolerating any red flags; they were GONE at the first sign of any sort of "dysregulation" or inexplicable anger.  I think I now have a red line like that as well, and I hope it's easier to recognize and act on, having been through this a few times. 
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2024, 10:12:23 AM »

...

I'm taking this as your experiences—of course people with BPD can identify as people with different genders and sexualities, and people on this site do too, but I assume you're talking about the way you've been socialized. I definitely have had some of this too, as I am a man.
...

Yes, for sure, and I should've qualified my post. 

I know women here who have different reasons for staying with an abusive BPD/NPD man, along the lines of excusing away his behavior as "stress" because he's the primary breadwinner, or otherwise feeling duty bound to stand by her man.

But in both cases, it goes back in my mind to the element of "chance" here that plays a role.  BPD behaviors can play into what we're taught to expect in relationships - as men or women - and whether knowingly or not, pwBPD learn to take advantage of this to excuse their behaviors and pull you in closer.

I've seen comments here also that people outside the r/s just don't get it - because they know "all couples fight," men don't listen to their wives, wives nag, etc., and so dismiss concerns from those within BPD relationships seeking advice.  Third parties in these instances contribute to the reasons we stay, whether fair or not. 

I know there certainly are codependents out there, and people that end up in and stay in BPD relationships because they're not capable of leaving, and I'm not trying to downplay or dismiss the need for such people to get personal help for their issues. 

I just think not everything has a "reason" for happening. 
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2024, 10:30:23 AM »

I've read that around 1.5% of people have BPD, which would be 1 in 75.  And around 6% will display one or more BPD traits in their lifetime, that's 1 in 16.

As I understand it, that's statistics for traditional BPD...which is the outward rages that's easy to see.  Quiet BPD is believed to be up to 6x more common since it rarely gets diagnosed.  It's the same as traditional BPD but everything is inward and hidden.

The chances are pretty strong that all of us have a friend or relative with some BPD traits; we simply don't see it as BPD.  Maybe they're just moody, or super quiet, or they prefer to just keep to themselves.  Maybe it's the distant aunt or uncle that's always mad about everything and can never let something go.  You don't know until you're inside their world on a daily basis.

Because think about it- how many people here say their spouse, child, or relative is completely off the rails yet almost everyone else in their lives can't see it?  It's because the closer you are with someone displaying BPD traits, the more you'll actually see and experience.

But it manifests itself only in close relationships; pwBPD don't act that way to everyone they meet, only when the relationship is close enough to trigger their anxieties over enmeshment/abandonment. 

I also suspect that - to the extent BPD in someone is not entirely genetic, but more the result of having suffered childhood abandonment and/or abuse - it would be more prevalent in certain environments.  Something to be wary of...

But again, societal mores and tropes can give pwBPD an "in" there, because who's cautioned to avoid someone just because they grew up in a tough environment?  I think evidence of having suffered child abuse/neglect/abandonment is now a red flag in my book.  whether or not the person got out of that environment through luck, or academic success, the damage is done.  But we're not taught that (at least I wasn't).  We might at some level understand obvious connections between someone who's a raging alcoholic or drug addict and suffered child abuse, but BPD behaviors are more insidious and don't usually reveal themselves until there's a closer personal relationship. 
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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2024, 12:43:58 PM »

Something to keep in mind with the "is it nature or nurture" topic is that McLean Hospital, a leader in BPD treatment, has found that the idea that "bad parenting causes BPD" is not factual:

Excerpt
Parents are all too often blamed for all kinds of problems in their children, but there is absolutely no evidence that bad parenting causes BPD. However, there may be individual cases in which parents have aggravated their child’s underlying vulnerability.

Nevertheless, the vast majority of parents are loving, caring people who are at a loss for what to do to help their children. In the absence of any research data or clinical experience to support this idea, it is time to stop blaming parents for causing BPD in their children.

Definitely some nuance there -- I think we're on the same page that it's not like bad parenting improves things for kids -- more that while it can make preexisting sensitivities worse, it isn't known to be causative for BPD.

Thinking about this, too:

Excerpt
But again, societal mores and tropes can give pwBPD an "in" there, because who's cautioned to avoid someone just because they grew up in a tough environment?  I think evidence of having suffered child abuse/neglect/abandonment is now a red flag in my book.  whether or not the person got out of that environment through luck, or academic success, the damage is done.  But we're not taught that (at least I wasn't).  We might at some level understand obvious connections between someone who's a raging alcoholic or drug addict and suffered child abuse, but BPD behaviors are more insidious and don't usually reveal themselves until there's a closer personal relationship.

we could even bracket the idea of BPD and say -- whatever the outcomes are in an individual's life from experiencing childhood abuse/neglect and/or a tough environment, it's up to you whether you are OK with those outcomes in a romantic partner. It's OK to say -- whatever works for someone else, for me, where I am now, I can't take on the challenges of partnering with someone with a difficult childhood. I might liken it to whether someone marries a person who uses a wheelchair. If you know that that difference will be too much for you to take on, it isn't wrong to say "that's not something I can cope with". So it's fine to avoid partners coming from difficult backgrounds -- not necessarily because it's an "if A then B" connection to BPD, but more because you as an individual decide "whether they bring BPD to the table or not, whatever is going on is not something for me right now."

...

Going back to this idea:

Excerpt
I'm reading a book (Black Swan by Nassim Nicolas Taleb), and one of his premises is that we go looking for answers to things that happen to us when there may be no answer.  We don't like the fact that the universe is as random as it is, and chance plays a bigger role in our lives than we'd like, so we invent stories after the fact to explain why something happened, or what we could've done differently. 

But there are just disordered people out there, and sometimes you meet them, and sometimes you might end up in a relationship with them.  If you're out looking for a relationship after a certain age, chances are a lot of the people who are single are that way for a reason,

For you, how do you put those two ideas together -- that one the one hand there may not be a reason for things that happened, and on the other hand, single people may be that way for a reason? Curious to learn a bit more about your perspective.
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2024, 05:47:18 PM »

...
Going back to this idea:

For you, how do you put those two ideas together -- that one the one hand there may not be a reason for things that happened, and on the other hand, single people may be that way for a reason? Curious to learn a bit more about your perspective.

The fact that a lot of things are random does not preclude there from being a reason certain things happened.

I think I would say that every event has a "reason" it happened, but when we look back at these events and try to fit a reason to it, we're often wrong as our understanding of the world isn't perfect and complete. 

Like I think of the element of chance in meeting BPDxw... any number of things could've resulted in me missing the dinner party I met her at.  There was a lot of chance involved.  Had any number of things changed, I would've never met her. 
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2024, 08:02:04 AM »

My thoughts:

I *wish* it was just bad luck.

I do believe that people can arrive in similar circumstances via many different paths, so I'll agree that "luck" could be it for some.

At the other end of the scale, I recognize that many in our cohort have a tendency toward analysis paralysis (I include myself in this group) - so looking for a non-random / non-luck explanation can become a part-time (or even full-time) preoccupation.

Stepping back from these extremes, "truth" is likely in the middle. This is where we find the sort of things that are uncovered in (good) therapy:  familiar patterns from the FOO and upbringing.  A bit of nature and nurture.  A sense of one's self - habits, preferences, biases, and the accompanying behaviors that go with them...   

It all adds up to a witch's brew that does not have fully decodable chemistry, but does indicate any number of factors that contribute to the who/what/why of our relationships.

Past trauma, unresolved disappointments, sibling rivalry, formative romantic experiences, commitments and attachments, a tendency to rationalize or negotiate - the list goes on - all contribute to what we accept or even embrace in our relationships.

Personally, I don't think there's a lot of room for "luck" - there's almost always going to be an explanation lurking if you're willing to go spelunking in your own head.

Of course, ymmv.
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« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2024, 03:00:45 PM »

It does seem like sort of a pointless exercise to consider... any number of things could have happened differently and our paths with a pwBPD would never have crossed.

I suppose a better question would be "Why did we stay in relationships with a pwBPD instead of ending it at the first clear sign of a behavioral disorder?"

From my own experience, I think it was a combination of some bad relationships that left me single, and more willing to settle on someone who was less than ideal.  And also a more immature attitude toward relationships, or maybe somewhat superficial understanding of what healthy ones looked like.

But recognizing her issues as a behavioral disorder?  I can't blame myself for not understanding that. 

She had her reasons and excuses for her behavioral issues that... well, they "held up" in my mind.  I wasn't perfect and made some mistakes.  But deep down inside I knew there was something wrong I suppose, but couldn't really articulate it.  But it was always unfair... she demanded perfection from me, but didn't come close herself. 

It wasn't for a few years that I really saw patterns there, and the hypocrisy in her standards was evident.

And even after that, the whole "being legally wed and having a kid" part makes leaving not as cut and dry as it would otherwise be. 
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Augustine
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Broken up
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2024, 05:48:18 PM »

Another facet to keep in mind, is that it’s well established that individuals high in conscientiousness, openness, agreeableness, will be grist for the sociopath’s mill, or any other variant of predator out there.

There are predators out there by the countless hundreds of thousands, just salivating in anticipation the moment they clap eyes on anyone with above average positive attributes whom they know will be suggestible.

When I look back on the various nefarious characters that it’s been my misfortune to meet, all of them did one thing: Really made a point of observing me, and asking questions that at the time seemed innocuous, but were actually strategic.

They were all innocence personified while the assessment was occurring. Not so innocent thereafter.

So, if you’re looking for a correlation, that’s one of them, as the one attribute that we seem to possess ringing out above all the others is our dogged determination to not give up, even when giving up is the only logical course to take.

Predators love our conscientiousness, as we’re the most easily duped.
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PeteWitsend
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« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2024, 10:40:47 AM »

Another facet to keep in mind, is that it’s well established that individuals high in conscientiousness, openness, agreeableness, will be grist for the sociopath’s mill, or any other variant of predator out there.

There are predators out there by the countless hundreds of thousands, just salivating in anticipation the moment they clap eyes on anyone with above average positive attributes whom they know will be suggestible.

When I look back on the various nefarious characters that it’s been my misfortune to meet, all of them did one thing: Really made a point of observing me, and asking questions that at the time seemed innocuous, but were actually strategic.

They were all innocence personified while the assessment was occurring. Not so innocent thereafter.

So, if you’re looking for a correlation, that’s one of them, as the one attribute that we seem to possess ringing out above all the others is our dogged determination to not give up, even when giving up is the only logical course to take.

Predators love our conscientiousness, as we’re the most easily duped.

This ties in neatly to the comments I made about being "raised right" resulting in one playing right into the hands of manipulative people, including those emotionally and verbally abusive, like BPDers. 

Excerpt
"When I look back on the various nefarious characters that it’s been my misfortune to meet, all of them did one thing: Really made a point of observing me, and asking questions that at the time seemed innocuous, but were actually strategic."

This is extremely interesting to me.  I'm thinking back to some early dates with BPDxw, and remembering her attitude; the "innocence personified" part as well.  I remember we had been introduced by a friend's wife, and they were having problems at the time.  He had cheated on her, and she was seeing another guy.  BPDxw asked a lot of probing questions about how I felt about all that.  I guess I answered them to her satisfaction, but I should've been asking her as many questions about them as she asked me.  I think her response would've been revealing.  Instead, she seemed to be playing up the fact that she was beyond scrutiny on these matters, and I was the one who had to prove I was going to be faithful.  But if I had learned more about her in those days, I would see she was very opportunistic and playing guys off eachother in order to find the best prospect for herself. 

I think that's the crux of the matter: learning to detect and avoid commitment to pwBPD or otherwise emotionally manipulative, abusive people.  We can't not trust people, and avoid commitment, but we can learn to be more mindful and assertive up front. 

I know I sometimes avoid what I perceive to be conflict, or let people frame my assertiveness as aggression; I never felt like I had problems standing up for myself, but I see that by failing to ask questions or holding people to the same standard they held me to, I was doing this, and was paving the way for them to continue treating me like that. 
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ChooseHappiness

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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2024, 09:18:05 AM »

Maybe it's bad luck in some cases, but I also think some people with BPD can be extremely charismatic and compelling. That was certainly the case with my ex. She was extremely outgoing and a high achiever, and everyone loved her -- until they got close and she turned on them one after the other. I should have noticed the red flag of no long-term friends, but we moved a lot so it was easy to explain away. And I didn't really start becoming the target until after we had children.

So maybe we wind up with pwBPD because of the shallow dating pool when we're older. But maybe we wind up with pwBPD because some of them are really good at presenting as interesting, adventurous, attractive people. Their friends mostly manage to get away with a cautionary tale, but their partners wind up here - especially if they have children and can't walk away.

Remember to take pride in yourself for all the times you did the right thing, even if it was with the wrong person. The fact that you were unlucky, as it were, shouldn't change the fact that you've been a good person and a model of how people should behave.
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