BPDh keeps making poor choices...

[waverider]

Some peoples "needs" (wants) are whatever lies on the other side of the boundary. Wherever you place a boundary then that defines their goals which can only be fulfilled by defeating that boundary.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Daniell85]

It's that co dependent guilt. You took lots of steps to fix things. He raises the bar, you have tried harder.

This has conditioned you. Fighting that impulse seems counter intuitive. I have been there, too. I know what it's like. The only cure I ever found, the only peace is to examine your boundaries and redirect your energies.

Your are not responsible for keeping him happy. HE is responsible for keeping him happy. Those boundaries can be hard things to integrate.

Cat and waverider are making some really important points. You are getting lost in this, along with your child, your self worth, your money and your cats!

You have a right to be who you are, have the things that are yours, to define and enforce what is yours and what isn't yours. No guilt for it! 

[MaybeSo]

It just seems so silly that I'm having to have a boundary in regard to anal sex. It's laughable to me really. I mean, in a loving, healthy relationship, he'd be understanding of my pain, and I'd be willing to meet his need(and endure the pain) occasionally. That isn't the relationship we have though, and I do not want to further enforce his desire to dominate and hurt me. Just like rape isn't about just sex, I don't think this anal sex thing is about just sex either. I've always felt it was a need to dominate, hurt and control me.

But I do agree, that love/sex shouldn't be excruciating. I have a pretty good pain tolerance, but for me, anal is on par with childbirth. I think a lot of the turn on IS about hurting me, and I DO NOT want to reinforce that I think that is okay. Maybe I just have to look at it from that angle? If it was solely about it being "taboo", or the naughty factor, that would be easier for me to accept(but still not a reason for me to do it), but I truly feel he enjoys inflicting pain upon me. I do see that I there is some manipulation, as he's told me it's something his ex had no problems with. He knows that's a sore spot for me, being compared to his ex. It almost feels like a threat? I guess I just have to stand firm, and honor myself, and he'll do with it what he will. I can't keep compromising, or in this case, being hurt, just to avoid divorce or cheating threats!

I'm going to comment on this b/c it is concerning.

Are you saying that your goal is to stay married  to a man who likes to see you in pain?  

It's okay if you do, but of course we have to ask why?  Why is staying married a priority under the conditions you are describing?

CB, there are lots of folks who like anal sex.  Lot's who don't.

Those who do like it, perform it with loving partners who take great care to make sure it is pleasurable and safe.  There is no shocking off the charts pain, there's no tearing, there's no bleeding. This is not a requirement of having anal sex.  There is NO reasons for any kind of sex, anal or otherwise, to be the way you describe this.  

There are actual books and articles on how to have anal sex safely, and enjoyably, and the reason some recipients agree to it is b/c they are with a safe partner, who takes all the time and skill in the world needed to make it a good experience for BOTH people, not just the man who is "on top".  Many woman report having the strongest orgasms of their life with this kind of sex, it does not have to be excruciating or damaging.  It is only that way if it's being done BADLY or if someone is doing something they really don't want to do and can't relax.  They ought not be there then.  There is NO reason, no reason at all to submit to painful or unsafe sex of any kind, unless you want to and are choosing that for some reason.  

Yes any sexual encounter can accidently cause some pain, and unskilled partners sometimes make mistakes, but not much and usually not more than once!  Both people are responsible to only have sex that works for them, BOTH people are charged with taking responsible for themselves when it comes to sex. In communities that really are into this practice, they are very serious about safety and skill AND all sex positive literature reinforces personal responsibility as a MUST for any kind of sex.  There is NO reason for someone to be in pain, bleeding, or torn.

Lots of folks just don't like it at all, never tried it, and never will.  That is PERFECTLY OKAY. Your body is your body.  It does not belong to your mate or anyone else.  Period.  If you act as though you can't have that kind of boundary with your H or ANYONE, you are heading into a very dark area, and you need to really consider what fears are driving you to abandon yourself this way.  And deal with YOUR fears once and for all.  When you say "he will get mad, he isn't happy when I do or say xyz, he will threaten divorce... "  you are focusing on him and being held hostage.  What are you afraid of?  That he will get mad?  That you will loose him?  Of course, the irony is... .he sounds so awful based on your description... .it's hard to understand what you are so worried about possibly losing if he followed through on  the divorce threat that keeps you so fearful?    If he is abusive when he has bad feelings, then THAT has to be dealt with by YOU making some real tuff personal decisions for yourself... .the answers lie with you, CB, not him.  

What are you so afraid of?  :)ivorce?  Loss?  If you fear these things and let those fears control you... you are MORE likely to both suffer and have a divorce and loss.  

CB, is it at all possible that this is a lack of skill or ignorance on his part? There are sex acts that require technique and patience and skill.  This is your life and your soul and your body.  If it's a lack of skill or ignorance, then both of you need to become educated so it's better and reach some agreements about what is happening in the bedroom.  

Or, are you really sure he wants to do this in a way that is painful for you... .?  Has he said as much?  :)o you talk with him about your experience?  :)o you tell him what your needs are?   (pain is NOT required if it's done right and with skill).

If it's the later, CB, and he really does just enjoy hurting you... .are you still saying you want to say married to him and avoid divorce at all cost?  Why?  What are you getting by staying with this as described?

You need to really take a good look at YOUR choices and not vent so much about him.  Use this board to explore what is really driving your choices, and stop the focus on him.  You are with him, this man that you say enjoys seeing you in pain... .you are the focus b/c you are choosing this.   This is about you on a very, very basic level, and not about him.  You are the only person who can take care of yourself and meet your own needs, really.  If you put yourself through experiences that are painful or damaging with a person whose intent is to seek enjoyment from your pain, you are not taking care of yourself.  It is your responsibility to take care of yourself.  Is there something driving you to be in a masochistic role with him?  Was this a pattern in your family?  :)o you need the two of you to be in these roles?  "He's bad, I'm the long suffering good wife that will do anything, even bleed, to appease him or make him happy."  :)id you see someone in a totally subservient role growing up?  

If  fear is driving you... .deal with your fear.  That is crucial to have a safe and meaningful life, we all have to face and deal with our fears.  :)ivorce, death, loss.  You cannot escape these painful existential experiences in life entirely.  

You keep saying he wants you to be in pain or enjoys it.  Why is it okay for you to stay married to a man who you describe this way? Are you okay staying with a man who enjoys seeing you bleeding and in pain?  

I'm harping on the this not b/c it's a provocative sexual issue, but b/c this sexual issue is so incredibly emblematic of the nature of the relationship you are choosing to participate in and keep describing on this board.  

Do you see your role here?  Many, many people would feel anxious and uncomfortable about it... .but they would just say no anyway if they didn't like it or felt unsafe... .either from the get-go or at the first hint that this partner is not interested in your safe experience.  Saying no... .IS HEALTHY.  In fact, it's the only way you stand a snow ball chance in hell to have a healthy relationship with him, or anyone.    No matter how much you love someone, no matter how much you really don't want a divorce, YOUR responsibility is to say no if you need to say no.  No can include only doing something if it's demonstrated that your safety and enjoyment are a priority.   That is your job.  

Otherwise YOU ARE ALSO contributing to a dysfunctional, unhealthy relationship.  It is scary to say no and to stand up for yourself, but you must, it is part of being human. It is a requirement of a decent relationship.

That's another thing about venting... .it is really hard often for the listener/reader to get a grip on what is really going on from a person's venting.   One moment it's like WOW this is serious, horrible, really bad ... .But once the listener gives serious feedback that matches the vent being told... .it forces the ventor to look at what they are presenting... .and often the ventor  starts to back away and backs-off on the narrative and re-creates the narrative to be much less dramatic, or starts to makes excuses, or starts to find ways to tell the listener how it's not all that bad, even though they are the one who rang the emergency alarm!  

The advice you are getting on this board about venting is spot-on.  SPOT ON.  

Venting is for the occasional annoying in-law, or the tooth brush being left on the counter.  

The things you are bringing forth here are very, very serious, and they require more than just venting, indeed, venting is really at some point counterproductive and PART of the problem.  

 

[babyducks]

I'm in agreement with what Maybe So wrote.   For me this is fundamentally an issue of respect.    Mutual and self respect.   

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, my Mom was rather subservient to my Dad, in some ways, but I actually think it's more my Christian upbringing, and the fact that I want to be a "good wife". I know everyone has differing views of what that is, but I feel both partners need to contribute towards that. I realized anal sex doesn't hurt all people, but it does me. And yes, he does enjoy hurting me, as he and I have had several conversations about it. He would deny enjoying inflicting pain, but he always says pain and pleasure are pretty much the same, and that one can be derived from the other. To him, maybe that's how he experiences it, but I do not, and I've expressed that to him. What's funny though is that he would never let me inflict pain on him, nor would I get extreme pleasure out of that. We just clearly don't see this issue the same.

I do feel I have the right to say no, but yeah, the co dependent guilt is a battle. I DO respect myself, and feel I deserve so much more, but probably my staying, and putting up with more than I should have, has sent him the wrong message. I've also definitely given him way more respect than he's earned. I just feel that even if people disrespect you, you don't have to stoop to their level. Outside of the marriage though, I'd never tolerate this crap off anyone else.

I think my fear of divorce is huge in this situation. My parents have been married for over 60 years, and as a Christian, I've always, always felt divorce should be a last option. Plus, I see how with just a few small changes, we could have a good marriage. It just seems the more I "change", the more he goes the opposite way. It's almost like I'm allowing him to become worse, because I accommodate, or make up for his lack of kindness, or just him doing what is right. I have to stop doing that. What I feel I deserve, and what I've put up with, definitely are NOT THE SAME.

I do think I need to look at the bigger picture. It is easy to get bogged down in the minutia because I'm dealing with new hurts, or odd dysfunctional behaviors so very often. And I think I vent about HIM, because when he addresses an issue I can work on, I get working on it, and I don't tend to vent about that. I like when I have something "I" can do, or work on. But the problem is that nothing I've ever worked on makes a real, or lasting change in our relationship, or our marriage. Why? Because it seems to allow him a huge feeling of control, he likely gets the message that I'll just accommodate, or make up for his lack, and it's an endless cycle. I agree that only HE can make himself happy, that it is NOT MY JOB, but it's a job I've been sort of taking on.

I'm happy just to have peace, and to not have anyone mad at me. I live fully in the moment, and try to enjoy whatever I'm doing. All this chaos has taught me that. When I'm doing a hobby, I'm focused on that, and don't let my mind stew over all this.

I think I just need to keep my boundaries, and deal with the co dependent guilt. My daughter actually does think I'm sort of a doormat. She is way stronger than me that way, and she certainly doesn't worry about "nice" to the degree I do. I really have no fear of her ever letting anyone treat her this way. I know I've not set the best example that way, but I just don't see that happening for her. She's dumped boyfriends that don't treat her right. I think she's actually learned from my example. BPDh and her get along because neither of them much crosses each other.

I've tried really telling them off before though, sort of acting as they do, but it just left ME feeling bad, and while they respect it from each other, they didn't take me seriously. It's like they know my "firmness" is a bluff, even when I know it isn't. And when I do manage to maintain a boundary, like the one around the use of me car, BPDH resents it so terribly. He sees things in win/lose mentality, so he sees my maintaining the boundary as "he lost".

I guess I just have to start really acting and maintaining the respect I feel for myself on the inside. I've always viewed myself as very strong, because I think it takes a stronger person to own responsibility, work on themselves, and be willing to bend. But I think my willingness to compromise, negotiate, and the intermittent reinforcement I used to have in regards to boundaries, has sent the wrong message. I definitely do not want to be married to someone who wants to inflict pain up me! But I'm sure that my tolerance, has given a different message. What you accept, you allow. I guess I just sort of felt something is "off" in him, that he'd want that, and I tried not to judge him. I tried to see beyond it, or figure out what caused him to want that. I do think his FOO left a mark on him, and how he behaves.

I'm really concerned about ME, at this point. I know I've done all I can do, and then some, in regards to the marriage, my kids, everything. I think I'm just at a point, where all my focus needs to be on self care. It feels sort of selfish to me, but I think it's needed. I  have therapy today, and maybe she can help me come up with some ideas of how to not make things worse at home, while giving myself some down time, and time to focus on ME, instead of struggling so hard to maintain boundaries... .

[Notwendy]

CB, I think many posters have given you some excellent advice. I want to highlight a pattern of responses on this board that I see:

That's another thing about venting... .it is really hard often for the listener/reader to get a grip on what is really going on from a person's venting.   One moment it's like WOW this is serious, horrible, really bad ... .But once the listener gives serious feedback that matches the vent being told... .it forces the ventor to look at what they are presenting... .and often the ventor  starts to back away and backs-off on the narrative and re-creates the narrative to be much less dramatic, or starts to makes excuses, or starts to find ways to tell the listener how it's not all that bad, even though they are the one who rang the emergency alarm!   


This may sound harsh, but it is said in kindness. Unless something changes, I don't for see much real change in the situation. Your personal distress might motivate you to change, however, when you vent here, and other posters give you sincere feedback and then the response is " well its not so bad, I'm really OK most of the time, just a few little things and our marriage is OK" then all this board can so do for you is act as a steam release in your marriage and so is enabling you to stay in a situation that causes you distress.

There is a limit to being a good wife that pleases her husband and that limit is when one is compliant in allowing him to behave unethically. What is the bottom line for this? Would it be "Christian" to obey your husband and please him if he wanted you to participate in robbing a bank? Murdering someone? Beating up his mother?

Why would you not comply with him wanting to hurt someone? Because it is wrong. Why? because if each person is created in the image of God, then it is wrong to cause them harm. So what makes it right to hurt you? By complying with this, you are enabling him to act unethically, to not be a good person. But mostly, you are ignoring the fact that you too are also made in the divine image and are not respecting that.

I am not here to argue religion as that is personal, but if religion is supposed to inspire us to act according to our own higher selves, then perhaps saying "no, you can not treat me unethically" is being a good wife. I am also not here to question or argue your own religious views, but if they include enabling your H to treat you poorly, then this behavior is likely to continue.

[sweetheart]

Hi CB,

I understand that we as posters can start as many new threads as we choose. For me however with a thread as important as this one, I am confused as to why you have left it to open another thread.

What this conveys to me is that there is a disconnect somewhere in what you wrote here and how you have chosen to process the responses given to you.

It is as though, you have vented, we responded,  you read the responses, but has anything really changed for you ? You mention that you see divorce as a last option and link this to the longevity of your parents marriage and religious upbringing. Does this core belief keep you stuck ? Were you married before? What is different here that let's you behave differently from the woman you say you are outside this relationship, or in your previous relationships? I don't mean for you to tell us your responses, but maybe talk to your T.

I read your words, but they are the same words in a variety of different ways each time. Reading between the lines it seems as though your existence is still spent walking on eggshells for fear of loosing your marriage. I get this, I've been there... .

Your thread about inner peace is really a continuation of what is being discussed here, it seems to me that the inner peace you seek will not be possible until you stop acquiescing to your husbands physical and emotional demands to control you. Inner peace stems from being true to our values and being prepared to enforce our boundaries even at the expense of our relationships.

I quite like this link on boundary setting. Its simple and I found it easy to relate, and it let's you know that boundaries are fluid rather than rigid, and just saying 'no' can be a great place to start.

www.greatist.com/happiness/how-to-set-boundaries-in-relationship

[babyducks]

I'm looking forward to hearing your ideas about acting on and maintaining the sense of self and self respect you spoke about.

[Notwendy]

To me, inner peace comes from listening to my higher self. I've been there too- co-dependent, trying to please, even if it meant ignoring my own inner voice that said " this is not who you are". As much as I tried to keep things peaceful for me by walking on eggshells and trying to keep people around me happy, there wasn't really peace.

All walking on eggshells brought was a temporary lull while waiting for the other shoe to drop- the next rage, the next angry outburst, the next need.

And my true authentic self would not stay silent for long.

I found peace when I listened to it. When I got help for co-dependency, when I stopped enabling the people around me- and one could name a few, my parents, my H.

[HurtinNW]

I'm just noting you don't have to divorce him to stop the abuse. I have a Christian friend who doesn't believe in divorce. She has been happily separated from her abusive, alcoholic husband for many years. They are still married, but do not live together. She has the kids. Sometimes there are reasons to not get divorced (my friend's family would disown her). But it still isn't a reason to put up with abuse.

[Daniell85]

Pleasure and pain are the same? Tell him you want to switch roles. Next time YOU get the pleasure out of HIS pain. He won't want to do it, probably.

CB, do you find yourself over here talking about this when you reach a point where you can't bear it anymore?

The venting aspect, you release some of the pain and frustration, feel validated, and go back in to fight for the marriage some more.

Is this an old dynamic you have? When I realized I was repeating dynamics in my relationship, I was able to put a stop to them most of the time. Sometimes you just don't realize that your own ( my own) coping mechanisms are tripping you up on handling things more productively.

[Cat Familiar]

Pleasure and pain are the same? Tell him you want to switch roles. Next time YOU get the pleasure out of HIS pain.

PM me and I'll send you a strap-on and he can see how he likes it. 

[formflier]

Pleasure and pain are the same? Tell him you want to switch roles. Next time YOU get the pleasure out of HIS pain.  

   PM me and I'll send you a strap-on and he can see how he likes it.   

   Been reading this thread with interest.  Thought about proposing this idea and just kept watching for a while.  Now that Cat has penetrated this delicate subject, I think that CB should seriously consider this.  1.  There is equality here.   2.  Something needs to shake up the dynamic in the r/s.  My guess is he will balk.  Then follow with a "help me understand how my rear end is supposed to be open for business and yours is closed".  Let him know that you and your strap on are ready for action whenever he is in the mood.  End the conversation and debate,  

FF  

[Cat Familiar]

CB, I just want to make it clear that I will order you one from Amazon (I'm assuming they have them) or if not, I'll risk getting weird pop-up ads in perpetuity from another site. It would be worth it if you are willing to give it a go. I think he really needs some sensory awareness of what he has done to you.

[formflier]

  This idea is in keeping with the general advice to put the action steps on the pwBPD to satisfy their needs and wants instead of the non running around doing all kinds of things trying to "satisfy" the pwBPD.  Do not rescue him or help him in any way sort through his thoughts and emotions as he tries to reconcile that the pathway (excuse my directness) to your rear starts through his.  He has set the precedent of how it goes (I'm sure you are familiar).  That's what you are offering him in all details.  Amount of foreplay, lube (any other details I am forgetting).    

FF

[thisagain]

Now that Cat has penetrated this delicate subject... .

Hehe 

Who knows though, they say that a lot of guys would secretly love that.

CB, something you wrote earlier in the thread really resonated with me: "all my efforts to be happy seem to ramp up his behaviors, or end up making me feel like I'm happy, but it has nothing to do with him. If he isn't in any way contributing to why I'm happy, why am I with him?"

There were many times in my relationship when I was doing everything I could, using the lessons, working on my side of things, and my partner responded by ramping up her drama. Sometimes by making sexual demands that she knew would be hurtful and offensive to me, and were not at all the kind of relationship we'd agreed to.

And I remember wondering what I was doing in the relationship when the only way to be happy was to spend less time with her and more time doing my own thing. The guys here told me that lowering the temperature and level of conflict (by initially doing my own thing more) could lead to her contributing more to my happiness, but it doesn't always work out that way. I really think that some pwBPD can't at all handle being in a relationship without the conflict, as it serves to keep their enmeshment fears at bay. Don't know if your H is in that category.

You seem to be at a stalemate where you're doing everything in your power to reduce the level of conflict and drama, and your H is responding by ramping up his efforts to increase the conflict and drama. Does that sound accurate? I agree that the venting here might be giving you just enough of a release to keep you in an untenable situation.

Calling him out for the hypocrisy could solve the anal sex issue (though he'd probably have some reason that makes perfect sense to him for why you should do it and he shouldn't). But won't he just come up with other things to demand of you or criticize you for?

[Ceruleanblue]

Okay, I was afraid to go here for fear of too much information, but here it is: BPDh had a therapist for three years, that sometimes gave him decent advice, but also didn't challenge him, and I feel enabled him. Well, I'd sometimes, at his request, go with him, and we'd do marriage counseling with his therapist. I addressed how I felt he got off by hurting me during sex, and that he said anal was a "need", and how badly it hurt me.

Well, this therapist suggested I used one of the "toys" on his rear end, so he could truly understand just how it hurt. He really didn't want to, but he let me. Trust me, I was way more gentle than he is, used way more lube, and basically, the time factor wasn't obviously until completion, like when he wants anal. He sweated, he shook, and it was actually hard for me to do to him, because I know how much it hurts. No matter how hard he tried to relax, or how much I aroused him, it hurt. He squeeled like a stuck pig, and acted angry after that he'd had to endure that. I didn't make him, and it was his therapist's idea.

So, basically I know he knows how much it hurts, and I was much more gentle with him, and the duration of it was much less, but he still wants what he wants.

I'm sticking to my boundary, but I have to admit I thought he wouldn't ask for anal after firsthand knowledge of how much it hurt. That has been close to a year ago though, and he knows I'd never ask him to do it again(and frankly, the whole incident was a huge turn off for me)... .

It's funny, and this gave me a chuckle, but if this HUGE object lesson in empathy didn't teach him, I give up. All I can do is say no, and he can just deal with it.

[formflier]

  CB, I think you are missing the mindset of how to best do boundaries.  Instead of it being a negative, let it be a positive.  He wants anal you say yes and pull out strap on and a smile.  Remember, less is more so no talking, discussing, soothing, let him sort out how he sorts out things.  Consistency is critical.  Do not save him from his uncomfortable choices.  Think about the lessons you have learned about pwBPD.  How many "things" do pwBPD (or most people for that matter) learn in a one time event?  Put the action steps on them.  Same thinking as when a pwBPD threatens divorce.  Usually when people express sadness but say they are ready to accept service from the pwBPDs lawyer, the entire thing dies because the pwBPD would have to put out effort to get their whim of the moment over.  CB, think about the title of the thread.  Think about ways you have been insulating him from his poor choices.  I really think there are ways you can say yes, be positive and let him sort a lot of stuff out.    

FF

[Notwendy]

If one is raised in a drama style FOO, then it is difficult to change that pattern because it feels "normal" to someone who doesn't know any other way.

There is also the idea that a person can be addicted to drama. Drama takes the focus off oneself, and intense emotions stimulate chemicals in the brain, some similar to being on drugs. There are terms like "rage a holic" . People can seek out rage and drama the way they seek out drugs.

Some people seek out drama and chaos because it makes them feel temporarily good, just like drinking and drugs. It takes the pain away- their own psychic emotional pain.

[Ceruleanblue]

There are enough other things I say yes to, I'm not going to cave on the anal sex boundary. You are right, I don't think he and I need to discuss it, the answer is a simple "no, it hurts". Less is more, in some cases, I agree. If having it done to him can't make him empathize, I see my only option as simply stating "no", but in a matter of fact tone.

I don't see this as negative or positive, it just IS. I mean, I'm sure he views not getting what he wants as negative, and I see not being hurt as positive, but beyond that it's just simple facts. I don't want to be hurt, and boundaries are all about protecting ourselves. It's not meant to hurt or punish him. In fact, I've been caught in the trap of taking one for the team(team marriage), in this and other regards, just to have peace. I can't keep doing that.

He is addicted to chaos/drama, as are his kids. If things are going good, I know to watch out, because pretty soon, there'll be a blow up. I'm sure to them it feels normal, or at least distracts them from the hurt or real issues. What feels normal to them, feels like a roller coaster, and landmine to me. My FOO wasn't anything like this, but I have a feelings his might have been. If not his FOO, at least his ex/he maintained this high level of drama and raised their kids in it.

I'm hoping that he someday sees he doesn't need the chaos to feel "normal".

[formflier]

There are enough other things I say yes to, I'm not going to cave on the anal sex boundary.   

   Do you think he would go through with letting you do it to him so he could do it to you?  From you description of the one experience, I'm more convinced that ever that you have zero risk here.  I see two pathways.  1.  He remembers and declines anal (you are saying yes and now he is saying no).  This is where I put my money bet.  2.  He decides to try and then asks for gentleness, compassion, tenderness (in other words tries to communicate about his sexual needs (wants) in a healthy way.  This conversation is a win because with this sex act it's the same thing.  He can relate to how you are feeling and you can relate as well.    CB, I see zero chance of you engaging in the horrible anal sex experience you have had up to this point.  You have already said in thread that if his behavior changed you may be willing to indulge his desires for anal.  So what is holding you back from trying to change the dynamic here?  What is the risk  This idea is not guaranteed.  The critical thing is that it is different and it will change the dynamic.  Status quo is obviously not working.    

FF

[waverider]

There are enough other things I say yes to, I'm not going to cave on the anal sex boundary. 

Do you think he would go through with letting you do it to him so he could do it to you?

From you description of the one experience, I'm more convinced that ever that you have zero risk here.

I see two pathways.

1.  He remembers and declines anal (you are saying yes and now he is saying no).  This is where I put my money bet.

2.  He decides to try and then asks for gentleness, compassion, tenderness (in other words tries to communicate about his sexual needs (wants) in a healthy way.  This conversation is a win because with this sex act it's the same thing.  He can relate to how you are feeling and you can relate as well. 

CB,

I see zero chance of you engaging in the horrible anal sex experience you have had up to this point.  You have already said in thread that if his behavior changed you may be willing to indulge his desires for anal.

So what is holding you back from trying to change the dynamic here?  What is the risk

This idea is not guaranteed.  The critical thing is that it is different and it will change the dynamic.  Status quo is obviously not working.

FF

Once you start introducing tit for tatt conditionals, you are diluting the value of is it right for you or not. It weakens a value as you open the door for counter conditions. Then it goes off topic onto what is "fair" and what is not.

Whether it works or not it sets a precedent for negotiations over boundaries.  Boundaries should be simple, dependent on no other conditions being met.

True nothing changes without changes. Having a non negotiable boundary is one of those healthy changes

[Notwendy]

I agree with WW. A non-negotiable boundary is a strong boundary.

It's also the Golden Rule. If you don't like it, and it hurts, why do it to someone else?

Although I have to admit, I was thinking what Cat said, with something large. But that would have been in the initial argument- if this is supposed to feel good, then how would you like it?

Seems you both have tried it, and neither of you enjoyed it. That's enough to keep it out of the bedroom and close that subject for good.

[formflier]

  True nothing changes without changes. Having a non negotiable boundary is one of those healthy changes

   The reason that in this case I am "pushing" to change the dynamic is that it is the same act, the same experience.  I'm struggling to think of another sex act or issue where the mechanics of the thing are the same.  Limiting discussion should help close down rabbit trails about what is fair.  Sure he can claim that it is different and that he should able to be the one that doesn't get penetrated while doing the same thing to CB.  Critical that she stays calm, let's him know that she hears him and his desire, that she has different desires and that she wishes him well as he sorts this out.  And if he wants anal right now to go get the strap on and head to the bedroom.  Then end the discussion.    

FF

[Notwendy]

What about just no means no?

If he brings it up, it is no again.

Just no.

and another no, until he gets the message

NO

[formflier]

What about just no means no?  If he brings it up, it is no again.   Just no.   and another no, until he gets the message   NO

   Because this is a place where you can be positive, say yes, and be risk free.  When I think about CBs relationship, I'm seeing lots of negativity.  No much change in the dynamic.    

FF

[formflier]

 until he gets the message    

   Think about the "rules" we teach.    Do pwBPD get the message better if we tell them, or if we let them experience the message through our(and their) actions?  I'm not at all trying to bust a boundary and take away the power of no.  I am trying to get CB and others to see that this particular sex act, since the mechanics are the same for both sexes, offers intriguing possibilities to help each party empathize and understand each other experiences.  CBs r/s needs a serious dynamic change.  Wouldn't this be an interesting story if this was turning point, ?    

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, I know he has zero desire to try it again, and I don't want to open the door for negotiation. I'd originally stated I might do it again in the future, because I was confusing this as a "need". Waverider cleared that up for me. I see now that I don't have to feel guilty for not wanting to do something that hurts me, that I've been a good sport about and tried several times, and that it really is okay to say no.

He definitely has no problems saying no to me, and I accept that. I thought role playing might be fun, but he doesn't have interest, and I'm fine with that. I mean, it didn't even have to lead to sex, but I think he just doesn't like feeling "controlled", and by doing something I suggest, he feels controlled. I think for him anal sex is about power, control, and domination. I think he knows it's not something I consider sexy, and I even find it sort of humiliating(because I've shared my views of it with him). I don't judge those who like it, but he definitely knows my views, and the physical pain it causes me.

Just my aversion alone should be enough for him, never mind the pain factor. I'm just not going to even entertain the idea anymore.

Why would I want to change the dynamics of it, when the only other outcome could be it again be something I have to endure? I think having a simple boundary will resolve the issue? I mean, he won't like it, but I don't like being hurt either. This isn't something we can do half way. It's either I cave and do it, or he does without. In this case, I'm going to look out for me.

Maybe I'm missing what you are aiming for Formflier, but I just don't want to open a can of worms... .

[waverider]

I think the issue has become how can you stop him pestering once you have said no and no longer want to debate it. Which is more about a boundary about not having to constantly repeat your stance.

This is the same as any issues that are beyond negotiation, normally along the lines of disengaging from discussions etc.

FF that approach is relying either on triggering his empathy (which hasn't worked) or an implied threat. This is about what CB is willing to endure. It is easier to stick to a boundary if all other considerations are kept separate. What would then happen if since last year his stance on receiving has changed? pwBPD can't be relied on to be consistent. CB would simply have had the rug pulled from under her boundary.

Its an unnecessary power play.

The two acts may technically be the same but they affect people differently, so ultimately the consequences are not the same

[Ceruleanblue]

Yeah, I'm just going to say "no", which has always been really hard for me. In this case though, I know I can do it. The pain of anal is such a strong reminder, and my dread of the pain, that saying "no" is way less painful than anal sex could ever be. Saying no causes discomfort for me, but it doesn't cause pain, and it's probably good for me to learn to say no. It's something I probably haven't done enough of, due to my fears, or his threats.


And yes, it will probably take a lot of repeating, and learning to not be pressured or guilted.